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GoldenThroat
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 Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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This is from Cranjis, and here's his corresponding tweet. My interpretation of the tape totally agrees with the data here.
| Quote: | Following up on @AlexmRegla's tweets RE: Brandon Ingram was misused last season
Here are his @The_BBall_Index grades vs 1500+ minute Creators & Spot-Up Wings. Green = a B- or better.
He *could* have been very impactful last year
He WILL pop this year w/a role change. Book it. |
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KB824MJ
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Joined: 25 Jun 2015
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Read the article, that's actually really good training. None of this set shots kind of thing which all of us harp on. Practice set shots aren't something that will be done in-game, unless they are wide open. Micah's training for Ingram makes a lot of sense, it is those imperfect or rushed shots that will happen in-game more often than not. |
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TheBlackMamba
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Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 9057
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | I know you've only been in the "club" for the last year or so, but it must be a media dream to cover the team this season. Getting that great quote or interview will be no problem on any given night with the Meme Team  |
Dude, I pinch myself every single day. I'm a simple guy, I wear basketball shorts and flip-flops almost all of the time. I don't have a taste for nice clothes, nice cars, a huge mansion, or anything like that. Never have.
The only luxury item I've ever had a burning desire for was Lakers' season tickets. That was seriously a life goal of mine, to be in a position where I could afford season tickets. Now not only do I not have to pay for them, I get paid to go to the games and give my thoughts on them...and then they let me in the locker room and I get to talk to the coach and the players!!!  |
The opportunity to talk basketball with Lebron f'in James alone must be mind-blowing to even think about. You earned it with all the work and passion you put in, though - great job, man  |
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epak
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Do coaches want players to only do things on the court they're good at? If you don't try things you're not good at, how will you improve? Only in practice? |
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Inspector Gadget
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Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46641
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | This is from Cranjis, and here's his corresponding tweet. My interpretation of the tape totally agrees with the data here.
| Quote: | Following up on @AlexmRegla's tweets RE: Brandon Ingram was misused last season
Here are his @The_BBall_Index grades vs 1500+ minute Creators & Spot-Up Wings. Green = a B- or better.
He *could* have been very impactful last year
He WILL pop this year w/a role change. Book it. |
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnuKH0eVsAA7gPz.jpg |
Damn, that’s exciting to hear. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Do coaches want players to only do things on the court they're good at? If you don't try things you're not good at, how will you improve? Only in practice? |
Practice is the place to start
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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epak
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Do coaches want players to only do things on the court they're good at? If you don't try things you're not good at, how will you improve? Only in practice? |
Practice is the place to start |
Definitely.
But shouldn't guys also get game time? And some leniency even when they don't perform well? |
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Judah
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Joined: 23 Jun 2015
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Do coaches want players to only do things on the court they're good at? If you don't try things you're not good at, how will you improve? Only in practice? |
Practice is the place to start |
Definitely.
But shouldn't guys also get game time? And some leniency even when they don't perform well? |
I get where you're coming from, especially when you're talking about a young player who's still developing. I think it's probably too early in BI's career to say he was "misused" last year. Like, at what point do you reach a conclusion on how ________ should be used because he's good at this thing, but not [currently] good at that thing, particularly when it's a young player?
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“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
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manlisten
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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That cranjis chart is a little misleading imo. In his second season at barely 20 years old, BI was an unknown quantity. You're trying to figure out what he's good at and in order to do so you have to find out what he's not good at. He has to be "misused", so to speak, before he can be used properly. Just a necessary part of development.
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It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
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crucifixion
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| manlisten wrote: | | That cranjis chart is a little misleading imo. In his second season at barely 20 years old, BI was an unknown quantity. You're trying to figure out what he's good at and in order to do so you have to find out what he's not good at. He has to be "misused", so to speak, before he can be used properly. Just a necessary part of development. |
not only that if you look at that analysis as a whole for all players you'll see that there's about 10 average players with the same stats. So basically they are just on picking and choosing the analytics that fit their narrative |
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awntawn
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| crucifixion wrote: | | manlisten wrote: | | That cranjis chart is a little misleading imo. In his second season at barely 20 years old, BI was an unknown quantity. You're trying to figure out what he's good at and in order to do so you have to find out what he's not good at. He has to be "misused", so to speak, before he can be used properly. Just a necessary part of development. |
not only that if you look at that analysis as a whole for all players you'll see that there's about 10 average players with the same stats. So basically they are just on picking and choosing the analytics that fit their narrative |
You're misunderstanding their narrative though. They're not trying to say Ingram's ceiling is a role player. If anything, those numbers are an explanation as to why Ingram's advanced stats are bad, and why a lot of stats people who don't watch him play think he's "not a good player right now". The reality is that he is a very good player, he just has a poor impact because he's being asked to do more than he's ready to right now.
Think of how the narrative on guys like Tatum and Brown on the Celtics are. Their ceilings are projected as super high because they're so young and already have such high statistical impact on games. A lot of people like to say Ingram "isn't close to as good as those guys right now" because his advanced stats aren't as good. That chart is saying that those advanced stats would be significantly higher if he were placed in a similar role as those guys. Instead, he's basically being put in position to fail with a tough role on the court, and his advanced stats suffer because of it.
Whether or not being put in that position is good or bad for development is the question that is up for debate, and even guys like Cranjis wonder the same thing. They're not trying to push a negative narrative on Ingram. They're basically saying that with Lebron on the team, Ingram's role will be more towards what he's good at, and he will be much more effective this year because of it. That's not including how much he got better from training this summer. |
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Villain6Activated
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Could him being misused last year be a blessing in disguise? We weren't making the playoffs regardless, but now he has so much more experience playing point and handling the ball then he would have otherwise.
This may just do him more good in the long run
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Judah wrote: | | epak wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Do coaches want players to only do things on the court they're good at? If you don't try things you're not good at, how will you improve? Only in practice? |
Practice is the place to start |
Definitely.
But shouldn't guys also get game time? And some leniency even when they don't perform well? |
I get where you're coming from, especially when you're talking about a young player who's still developing. I think it's probably too early in BI's career to say he was "misused" last year. Like, at what point do you reach a conclusion on how ________ should be used because he's good at this thing, but not [currently] good at that thing, particularly when it's a young player? |
Yep. That's the question. Not always a black and white answer though. |
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dao
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| awntawn wrote: | | crucifixion wrote: | | manlisten wrote: | | That cranjis chart is a little misleading imo. In his second season at barely 20 years old, BI was an unknown quantity. You're trying to figure out what he's good at and in order to do so you have to find out what he's not good at. He has to be "misused", so to speak, before he can be used properly. Just a necessary part of development. |
not only that if you look at that analysis as a whole for all players you'll see that there's about 10 average players with the same stats. So basically they are just on picking and choosing the analytics that fit their narrative |
You're misunderstanding their narrative though. They're not trying to say Ingram's ceiling is a role player. If anything, those numbers are an explanation as to why Ingram's advanced stats are bad, and why a lot of stats people who don't watch him play think he's "not a good player right now". The reality is that he is a very good player, he just has a poor impact because he's being asked to do more than he's ready to right now.
Think of how the narrative on guys like Tatum and Brown on the Celtics are. Their ceilings are projected as super high because they're so young and already have such high statistical impact on games. A lot of people like to say Ingram "isn't close to as good as those guys right now" because his advanced stats aren't as good. That chart is saying that those advanced stats would be significantly higher if he were placed in a similar role as those guys. Instead, he's basically being put in position to fail with a tough role on the court, and his advanced stats suffer because of it.
Whether or not being put in that position is good or bad for development is the question that is up for debate, and even guys like Cranjis wonder the same thing. They're not trying to push a negative narrative on Ingram. They're basically saying that with Lebron on the team, Ingram's role will be more towards what he's good at, and he will be much more effective this year because of it. That's not including how much he got better from training this summer. |
the interesting thing about all of this is that Ingram's best stretch (by far) from a statistical perspective occurred at the point guard position. To be fair, when he played point, he wasn't ball dominant. In fact, he was probably less ball dominant than usual during that stretch.
But yeah, I don't think it's so simple as to say that a catch and shoot role would maximize his efficiency when the best stretch of his career came at the point. |
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SocalDevin
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Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | awntawn wrote: | | crucifixion wrote: | | manlisten wrote: | | That cranjis chart is a little misleading imo. In his second season at barely 20 years old, BI was an unknown quantity. You're trying to figure out what he's good at and in order to do so you have to find out what he's not good at. He has to be "misused", so to speak, before he can be used properly. Just a necessary part of development. |
not only that if you look at that analysis as a whole for all players you'll see that there's about 10 average players with the same stats. So basically they are just on picking and choosing the analytics that fit their narrative |
You're misunderstanding their narrative though. They're not trying to say Ingram's ceiling is a role player. If anything, those numbers are an explanation as to why Ingram's advanced stats are bad, and why a lot of stats people who don't watch him play think he's "not a good player right now". The reality is that he is a very good player, he just has a poor impact because he's being asked to do more than he's ready to right now.
Think of how the narrative on guys like Tatum and Brown on the Celtics are. Their ceilings are projected as super high because they're so young and already have such high statistical impact on games. A lot of people like to say Ingram "isn't close to as good as those guys right now" because his advanced stats aren't as good. That chart is saying that those advanced stats would be significantly higher if he were placed in a similar role as those guys. Instead, he's basically being put in position to fail with a tough role on the court, and his advanced stats suffer because of it.
Whether or not being put in that position is good or bad for development is the question that is up for debate, and even guys like Cranjis wonder the same thing. They're not trying to push a negative narrative on Ingram. They're basically saying that with Lebron on the team, Ingram's role will be more towards what he's good at, and he will be much more effective this year because of it. That's not including how much he got better from training this summer. |
the interesting thing about all of this is that Ingram's best stretch (by far) from a statistical perspective occurred at the point guard position. To be fair, when he played point, he wasn't ball dominant. In fact, he was probably less ball dominant than usual during that stretch.
But yeah, I don't think it's so simple as to say that a catch and shoot role would maximize his efficiency when the best stretch of his career came at the point. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | This is from Cranjis, and here's his corresponding tweet. My interpretation of the tape totally agrees with the data here.
| Quote: | Following up on @AlexmRegla's tweets RE: Brandon Ingram was misused last season
Here are his @The_BBall_Index grades vs 1500+ minute Creators & Spot-Up Wings. Green = a B- or better.
He *could* have been very impactful last year
He WILL pop this year w/a role change. Book it. |
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnuKH0eVsAA7gPz.jpg |
What I find interesting is comparison by archetypes vs. overall. The Lakers essentially asked BI to be a one-on-one guy early on, and that slowly transformed into a pick and roll heavy initiator, even a strong stint at point guard.
I haven't seen changes from the month to month basis, but even this analysis doesn't take into consideration how his archetype changes during the season, IMHO, moreso than any NBA player in the league.
So yes, as a tertiary "spot up wing," he has a lot of areas he can excel. But I'm curious what everything looked like when he just flat out played point guard.
The access of information available to me is A LOT, and yet I'm still searching for specificities that can analyze the Lakers better. I don't really recall such a uniquely talented team changing roles as often as they did, whether it's Ingram or Julius Randle.
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crucifixion
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd be very interested to see Ingram at PG full time. Problem is we have Ball |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| crucifixion wrote: | | I'd be very interested to see Ingram at PG full time. Problem is we have Ball |
It doesn't matter. There's plenty of ball-handlers/creators on the team, so BI can take a tertiary archetype and be more efficient now.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| crucifixion wrote: | | I'd be very interested to see Ingram at PG full time. Problem is we have Ball |
It doesn't matter. There's plenty of ball-handlers/creators on the team, so BI can take a tertiary archetype and be more efficient now.
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Judah
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| crucifixion wrote: | | I'd be very interested to see Ingram at PG full time. Problem is we have Ball |
That's like saying, 'I wish I didn't have two mansions.'
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“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| awntawn wrote: | | crucifixion wrote: | | manlisten wrote: | | That cranjis chart is a little misleading imo. In his second season at barely 20 years old, BI was an unknown quantity. You're trying to figure out what he's good at and in order to do so you have to find out what he's not good at. He has to be "misused", so to speak, before he can be used properly. Just a necessary part of development. |
not only that if you look at that analysis as a whole for all players you'll see that there's about 10 average players with the same stats. So basically they are just on picking and choosing the analytics that fit their narrative |
You're misunderstanding their narrative though. They're not trying to say Ingram's ceiling is a role player. If anything, those numbers are an explanation as to why Ingram's advanced stats are bad, and why a lot of stats people who don't watch him play think he's "not a good player right now". The reality is that he is a very good player, he just has a poor impact because he's being asked to do more than he's ready to right now.
Think of how the narrative on guys like Tatum and Brown on the Celtics are. Their ceilings are projected as super high because they're so young and already have such high statistical impact on games. A lot of people like to say Ingram "isn't close to as good as those guys right now" because his advanced stats aren't as good. That chart is saying that those advanced stats would be significantly higher if he were placed in a similar role as those guys. Instead, he's basically being put in position to fail with a tough role on the court, and his advanced stats suffer because of it.
Whether or not being put in that position is good or bad for development is the question that is up for debate, and even guys like Cranjis wonder the same thing. They're not trying to push a negative narrative on Ingram. They're basically saying that with Lebron on the team, Ingram's role will be more towards what he's good at, and he will be much more effective this year because of it. That's not including how much he got better from training this summer. |
DRPM 2017-18
Brown 0.91
Tatum 1.97
Ingram -0.28
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Staccatos
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: |
DRPM 2017-18
Brown 0.91
Tatum 1.97
Ingram -0.28 |
I don't buy any proprietary and hidden stat that ESPN promotes. Real statistics should be transparent and available for cross verification. |
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24Legend007
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Uhh doesnt Lebron's camp think Ingram can be a Pippen "type" player? That's all I need to hear for now. Let's let the kid get 30 games with a decent team before we pass too much judgement.
I for one think Brandon Ingram is better the Jaylen Brown right now. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 24Legend007 wrote: | Uhh doesnt Lebron's camp think Ingram can be a Pippen "type" player? That's all I need to hear for now. Let's let the kid get 30 games with a decent team before we pass too much judgement.
I for one think Brandon Ingram is better the Jaylen Brown right now. |
Pippen with better offense  |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Staccatos wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: |
DRPM 2017-18
Brown 0.91
Tatum 1.97
Ingram -0.28 |
I don't buy any proprietary and hidden stat that ESPN promotes. Real statistics should be transparent and available for cross verification. |
You must really hate Cranjis' stuff then.
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