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Bard207
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Joined: 08 Jan 2013
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 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | I guess the Tayshaun Prince comparisons weren't far off. |
Tayshaun Prince was the #23 pick in the 2002 draft.
Ingram isn't going to get paid if his career is being a better Tayshaun Prince. |
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King Kleazy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | TooMuchMajicBuss wrote: | | PauPau wrote: | | DangeRuss wrote: | | Ingram is just having a bit of a difficult time adjusting to playing with lebron. Last season and especially towards the second half of last season, Ingram’s role was different, he was becoming a go to player. This year he just watching lebron and kuzma take turns passing to each other and jacking up shots or lebron waive him off to a corner so he can Iso. I think if Kuzma is moved to the bench, it would benefit not only Ingram but the starters as a whole. More shots and opportunities for Lonzo and Ingram especially. |
You're working under the assumption that Kuzma or Hart or even Lonzo for that matter are operating beyond themselves because of Lebron.
Its not a strectch to say the other youngins might be finding it just as difficult. |
Kuzma plays very well with LeBron, Hart plays well with him as well. Kuzma with his aggressive attacking style off ball, Hart with his ability to hit 3's or drive to the hole and draw a +1 against anyone. Both players compliment his game, Hart's going to provide some space if he keeps hitting 40% plus on 3's. Lonzo - gets a little passive on offense and defers a lot, but even at that he compliments LeBron, pushes the pace, allows LeBron more scoring or drive and dish opportunities, helps shore up the team defense when LeBron is on the floor, and it looks to me like Lonzo is learning to play halfcourt with LeBron as well lately.
Ingram - I see him cutting occasionally to the basket, but I see way too much redundancy, he seems to need the ball to be effective, particularly when he pounds the ball and goes into contested mid-range mode on offense. It's rare to feel like 'wow look at that Ingram/LeBron 2 man game!' watching them play together. BI can be disruptive on defense, though. |
A few thoughts.
1. Hart/Kuz are older, less heralded late 1st rounders. They have a mentality of fitting in, and play with more of a chip on their shoulders.
2. BI/Lonzo are younger, more heralded #2 picks. They probably think of themselves as future superstars, and may be a bit hesistant to play roles beneath their #2 draft status. |
DING DING DING.......And why should they not feel this way and be allowed the opportunity to be someone beyond a 3&D role player.
And Pete you’ve shown not to be such a fan and mostly critical of Ingram and his game, fit, etc. You have direct access to him, why not speak on it or ask him directly of his thought process, unless you have and I’ve overlooked it? |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | tox wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | Ingram's PER is 10.6. For reference, league average is 15 and only KCP is lower at 8.1. |
2018 and using PER |
True but all of his advanced stats suck. |
Sure but at least the other ones factor in defense which I guess is his best attribute now? |
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King Kleazy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | If BI thought co-existing with LBJ was tough, imagine if we add KD/KL/Klay?
It's a part of every top basketball player's growth curve.
Unless you are so clearly gifted and should be a centerpiece of the team's offense, you have to adapt to the team. It will be LBJ this year, and likely LBJ + another a high usage all star. |
That is assuming those players are willing to adapt their roles to fit with James. Every All-star that has played with him has struggled. So why would young developing players not?
If rumors are to be believed, James may be getting the cold shoulder from marquee FAs next year. He has historically cast a big shadow over his teammates when he was prime Lebron. Not too hard to believe that some of the potential "Robins" may not be as enthusiastic to join a declining James for the next few years. They tend to get few accolades and most of the criticisms on a James led team.
Developing the youth and slowly loosening the grips on the reins may be the best option for James and IMO the Lakers.
Roster is currently built to be competitive if not even a bit contentious as the young players struggle to establish themselves as big ego vets demand their mpg. We saw this with every off-season signing. Why lose patience with it now as they inevitably struggle.
Stay the course. Play out this year as is. And then evaluate what is needed next summer when FAs are available, money to spend and young players have (hopefully) established their roles. |
Struggled wouldn't be the right word.
Kyrie was routinely leading lottery teams b/f LBJ got there.
Wade's team wasn't a contender b/f LBJ got there.
Bosh was battling for 1st/2nd round playoffs.
I think those players benefitted tremendously from playing with LBJ, but he was prime LBJ then.
Again, staying the course is likely what they do. But it's no doubt an evaluation year for BI and he's running out of time. Year 3 of the rookie deal is a make/break year for many. |
I should have stated "struggled to find their role" with James.
Also wonder how wonderful an experience it was for Bosh, Love and to some extent Irving to play with James. Or any of the roles players from the various teams that were thrown under the bus for not "helping" James enough.
Certainly highs and lows to playing with James. I simply wonder if the balance of each is not in his favor as much as it used to be going forward. |
Bosh has 2 rings.
Love has a ring.
Neither player sniffs the Finals without him.
It's incredible to me how people want to dump on LBJ for carrying these guys. It's a part of being the "3rd guy" on a team with 3 all stars. Not everyone can be happy. Hell, even Kobe/Shaq, not enough oxygen for anyone else. |
My point is established players have had conflicts despite winning rings. So why wouldn't young players trying to establish themselves.
James is trying to establish his role too. He is trying to balance as a mentor for a young team, HC and throw in a much different pace and style then he is used to. All while adjusting to the demands of being in LA and in all honesty the reality of him declining just a bit.
Is his lack of on court sharpness due to declined physical or mental focus? Both?
IMO he needs to trust in the team more. Ingram (starting or 2nd unit) can pick up some slack by taking more mpg and FGAs. I realize not all see that potential. some have written off Ingram as trade fodder.
IMO that is a mistake. Ingram, Ball and Kuzma are all critical pieces of the puzzle if they let them be. Not just for the next couple years but post James too. They squandered another young player in Randle. I prefer they do not do the same with Ingram. |
AGREED, had we whiffed this summer the tone would be different about giving up our youth for the likes of Kemba  |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | I guess the Tayshaun Prince comparisons weren't far off. |
He’s way more talented than Prince but this coaching staff isn’t developing him optimally which is why he’s more towards his floor of TP than ceiling . Pop would have had BI looking like Kawhi |
I can’t agree with anything in this post
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Joe Pesci
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:51 am Post subject: |
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If the Lakers have a team with both James and Durant, they would be foolish to not surround them with the best, most optimal, players to win immeadiately.
That means if Ingram and/or Ball are not the best fits next to those two juggernauts, they will be replaced with players who look to be better fits.
It really is as simple as that. If a guy like Walker looks to be a better fit next to James and Durant than Ball and Ingram, you pull the trigger. If Ingram and Ball are better fits over a guy like Walker, you don’t pull the trigger.
This ain’t about age. It’s about winning rings. Notice how no one really wants to trade Josh Hart. Why? Because he plays and fits quite well. Same with Kuzma and Mykhailiuk to a lesser extent.
With Durant and James on the team, the race will be on to catch the ring totals of Magic, Kobe, and Duncan ... then Jordan.
The Lakers will have to do everything in their power to create the perfect team around two all-timers, not hold on to guys because they were good for one year of college, were drafted #2 in the draft, and are under 22 years of age.
Unless Ball can make free throws, layups, midrange jumpers, and floaters in the lane he’s replaceable.
Unless Ingram can become a willing three-ball shooter, mover of the basketball, rebounder, and unselfish team player he’s replaceable.
Unless both of these guys change their games considerably they can and will be replaced with other guys who will better and more quickly move this team closer to winning the big trophy.
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AFireInside619
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:21 am Post subject: |
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BI’s development is everyone’s fault. He’s not Kobe and he’s not Durant but the fans, the media, the coaching staff and two front office we’re so hungry for that they didn’t care about how he developed, just do it as soon as possible. Like I said on the earlier post, let’s not worry about the box score and hope that be can be a good “fundamentally sound player” on both ends of the court before become any sort of “killer”.
GT was right on Locked On about how the Lakers should have brought him up the right way, like the Spurs did with Kawhi, and how hopefully it isn’t too late. |
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Staccatos
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I think we're missing the real issue between BI's girlfriend and his sidechick. Brandon doesn't know to drive LEFT or RIGHT which is leading to more turnovers.
https://twitter.com/BSO/status/1062588674896998401
| Quote: | | Brandon Ingram's Girlfriend Trolled His Stripper Side Chick on IG About Ingram Getting Her Better Seats at Lakers Game; GF Ok With Him Having Thotourage™ As Long as She Gets The Best Seats (IG Video-Pics) |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Pesci wrote: | If the Lakers have a team with both James and Durant, they would be foolish to not surround them with the best, most optimal, players to win immeadiately.
That means if Ingram and/or Ball are not the best fits next to those two juggernauts, they will be replaced with players who look to be better fits.
It really is as simple as that. If a guy like Walker looks to be a better fit next to James and Durant than Ball and Ingram, you pull the trigger. If Ingram and Ball are better fits over a guy like Walker, you don’t pull the trigger.
This ain’t about age. It’s about winning rings. Notice how no one really wants to trade Josh Hart. Why? Because he plays and fits quite well. Same with Kuzma and Mykhailiuk to a lesser extent.
With Durant and James on the team, the race will be on to catch the ring totals of Magic, Kobe, and Duncan ... then Jordan.
The Lakers will have to do everything in their power to create the perfect team around two all-timers, not hold on to guys because they were good for one year of college, were drafted #2 in the draft, and are under 22 years of age.
Unless Ball can make free throws, layups, midrange jumpers, and floaters in the lane he’s replaceable.
Unless Ingram can become a willing three-ball shooter, mover of the basketball, rebounder, and unselfish team player he’s replaceable.
Unless both of these guys change their games considerably they can and will be replaced with other guys who will better and more quickly move this team closer to winning the big trophy. |
If we get KD then I think the most logical move is moving Ingram. Him is enough for us to get someone like Kemba. It’s prudent to keep one of them (Lonzo and Ingram) later after our run. Most teams will value Ingram more. Ingram need the ball to be the most effective and need the freedom for him to fully develop and I think a lot of coaches believed they can mold him to be that player. |
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AFireInside619
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Joined: 11 Dec 2015
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Staccatos wrote: | I think we're missing the real issue between BI's girlfriend and his sidechick. Brandon doesn't know to drive LEFT or RIGHT which is leading to more turnovers.
https://twitter.com/BSO/status/1062588674896998401
| Quote: | | Brandon Ingram's Girlfriend Trolled His Stripper Side Chick on IG About Ingram Getting Her Better Seats at Lakers Game; GF Ok With Him Having Thotourage™ As Long as She Gets The Best Seats (IG Video-Pics) |
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Thotourage. Classic. |
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matrixskillz
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | I guess the Tayshaun Prince comparisons weren't far off. |
tayshaun was a career 37% 3pt shooter and in their championship season (04-05) averaged 14.7/5.3/3.0 on 49% fg. i'd take prime tayshaun over ingram at this point.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Staccatos wrote: | I think we're missing the real issue between BI's girlfriend and his sidechick. Brandon doesn't know to drive LEFT or RIGHT which is leading to more turnovers.
https://twitter.com/BSO/status/1062588674896998401
| Quote: | | Brandon Ingram's Girlfriend Trolled His Stripper Side Chick on IG About Ingram Getting Her Better Seats at Lakers Game; GF Ok With Him Having Thotourage™ As Long as She Gets The Best Seats (IG Video-Pics) |
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Well. Lou Will managed a Thotourage and was a prolific scorer on and off the court. BI needs to consult with him.
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CRoost
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | Staccatos wrote: | I think we're missing the real issue between BI's girlfriend and his sidechick. Brandon doesn't know to drive LEFT or RIGHT which is leading to more turnovers.
https://twitter.com/BSO/status/1062588674896998401
| Quote: | | Brandon Ingram's Girlfriend Trolled His Stripper Side Chick on IG About Ingram Getting Her Better Seats at Lakers Game; GF Ok With Him Having Thotourage™ As Long as She Gets The Best Seats (IG Video-Pics) |
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Thotourage. Classic. |
Lol Thotourage. His shot selection is on par with his thot selection. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
BI has a higher ceiling than Prince, but man, in his prime, Prince was an awesome role player. Would love it if BI could get on his defensive level one day.
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TheBlackMamba
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
BI has a higher ceiling than Prince, but man, in his prime, Prince was an awesome role player. Would love it if BI could get on his defensive level one day. |
I thought Prince was good too... but it's like helicopter parents who have too high standards... where they only see flaws in their own kids... but when they are somebody else's kids they can judge them more objectively.
BI at 20 had numbers in every major category that exceeded Prince's entire career.
So which is it... did we overrate Prince?
Or are we being too tough on Brandon? |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
Of course |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
Most definitely . Draymond is like 28 so there’s still a lot left on his tank. Will do it in a heartbeat: |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
BI has a higher ceiling than Prince, but man, in his prime, Prince was an awesome role player. Would love it if BI could get on his defensive level one day. |
I thought Prince was good too... but it's like helicopter parents who have too high standards... where they only see flaws in their own kids... but when they are somebody else's kids they can judge them more objectively.
BI at 20 had numbers in every major category that exceeded Prince's entire career.
So which is it... did we overrate Prince?
Or are we being too tough on Brandon? |
Prince was a mostly defensive guy. I'm not sure BI will ever reach that. His offensive game was rudimentary but passable.
That's why BI has a higher ceiling. Question is whether he'll get there. But defensively, if BI could replicate Prince that would be phenomenal.
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Yellow
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
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CRoost
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
It would be, as long as Ingram didn't help extend the Warriors dominance another decade. I don't mean himself... but as an integral part of the Warriors team philosophy.
Do you trade two years of success at the risk of prolonging the Warriors relevance?
Tough question for me.
Last edited by Sentient Meat on Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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