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sonic the laker
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Joined: 06 Oct 2013
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 Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh.
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
It’s not about a couple of bad games and you know this. It’s acout jusging the entirety of his career thus far, good and bad, and recognizing growth or the lack there of and making projections. Nobody is judging him off strictly a few bad games. With that said, he has the potential to be much better than Prince immediately IMO but has shown the willingness to be. As somebody mentioned early, being willing to sacrifice for the team and accept a role is a huge part of basketball and he’s shown he’s unwilling to accept that. If that changes, his raw stats will likely decrease but he’ll be a much better basketball player. I’m starting to believe he’s only about what’s best for himself though. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Yea trading Marc Gasol for Pau was a terrible move... |
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TheBlackMamba
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 9057
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
That's only true if you definitively think BI can help win the Lakers rings down the line. Right now, it's still up in the air whether he can be a plus contributor on a contender. If he can't learn to share the floor with ball dominant stars, it won't happen.
Dray has already proven those things and 100x more. You add a player with his intelligence next to Lebron and Zo, plus All-NBA caliber defense, and that's a no brainer deal to me (though a complete hypothetical). |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Lol it’s harder to win a chip. A lot of great of players has zero rings. Even Lebron and KD collude to win it and they are transcendent players. Lakers is all about winning championships. Sure we went through purgatory because of mismanagement from our front office failures. |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Yea trading Marc Gasol for Pau was a terrible move... |
A perfect good example. Pau got us 2 rings. Memphis has a long playoffs run. Easy for me which team I would rather be. |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
I don't recall many calling BI a "scrub," more so questioning his approach offensively.
You critique of others extrapolating also goes both ways. You can't assume a linear growth for BI, i.e. comparing numbers at random junctures in a player's career.
Is it likely BI continues on an upward trajectory? OF course. Does it mean each year will represent a quantum leap forward into stardom? Of course not. Each player's progression is different. There are those who shine early and fade later; and vice versa.
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
It’s not about a couple of bad games and you know this. It’s acout jusging the entirety of his career thus far, good and bad, and recognizing growth or the lack there of and making projections. Nobody is judging him off strictly a few bad games. With that said, he has the potential to be much better than Prince immediately IMO but has shown the willingness to be. As somebody mentioned early, being willing to sacrifice for the team and accept a role is a huge part of basketball and he’s shown he’s unwilling to accept that. If that changes, his raw stats will likely decrease but he’ll be a much better basketball player. I’m starting to believe he’s only about what’s best for himself though. |
I don't think of him as a selfish player... Kuzma is the only youngster who seems to play that way... but I think we need that from him because we have too many Robins on the team including sometimes LBJ.
Even Hart shows more alpha tendencies than BI... though I think Luke keeps him under control by pulling him when he shoots too much.
(I'm going by his summer league performance where he tried to take over every game)
I think BI is instructed to be aggressive and find his shot, but just hasn't been very good at it this year. I don't think he's a selfish player by nature and is a good passer who often finds the open man.
On the plus side, unlike Lonzo... his shot seems barely off... a lot of in and out near miss shots. He rarely misses badly.
Again, like everyone else... I think he's played poorly the last two games... especially his stubborn insistence driving into traffic and losing the ball, but his averages were online for improvement three games ago.
If he keeps playing like this deep in the season... then yes, I will be concerned. But I bring up Prince because I think we are viewing the past through rose colored glasses and not seeing the everyday average Prince that Detroit fans had to watch every game. Ingram's poor play is equal to Prince's playoff highs. That should tell you something about his potential. |
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matrixskillz
Star Player
Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 7502
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:59 am Post subject: |
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ppl don't get ingram is in the 3rd year of his 4 year rookie deal and will be eligible for an extension next summer. this is a make or break year for him.
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| matrixskillz wrote: | | ppl don't get ingram is in the 3rd year of his 4 year rookie deal and will be eligible for an extension next summer. this is a make or break year for him. |
Yeah and if he's shooting 33% and giving up 6 turnovers by the end of the year... maybe we let him go.
I just think he needs to relax and we'll see some breakout games.
You are right though... if he doesn't improve soon then maybe we need to go a different way. |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| matrixskillz wrote: | | ppl don't get ingram is in the 3rd year of his 4 year rookie deal and will be eligible for an extension next summer. this is a make or break year for him. |
Yup. In that sense, BI's young age/underdeveloped body hurts him. The ideal situation would be that BI takes a deal that is commensurate with his talent (i.e. not a max) and then recoups on his 2nd deal when he is filling in his body and approaching his prime.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
It’s not about a couple of bad games and you know this. It’s acout jusging the entirety of his career thus far, good and bad, and recognizing growth or the lack there of and making projections. Nobody is judging him off strictly a few bad games. With that said, he has the potential to be much better than Prince immediately IMO but has shown the willingness to be. As somebody mentioned early, being willing to sacrifice for the team and accept a role is a huge part of basketball and he’s shown he’s unwilling to accept that. If that changes, his raw stats will likely decrease but he’ll be a much better basketball player. I’m starting to believe he’s only about what’s best for himself though. |
Lol if he’s all about himself then he would play the same way. His roles kept changing and he’s adjusting to that accordingly. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
It’s not about a couple of bad games and you know this. It’s acout jusging the entirety of his career thus far, good and bad, and recognizing growth or the lack there of and making projections. Nobody is judging him off strictly a few bad games. With that said, he has the potential to be much better than Prince immediately IMO but has shown the willingness to be. As somebody mentioned early, being willing to sacrifice for the team and accept a role is a huge part of basketball and he’s shown he’s unwilling to accept that. If that changes, his raw stats will likely decrease but he’ll be a much better basketball player. I’m starting to believe he’s only about what’s best for himself though. |
Lol if he’s all about himself then he would play the same way. His roles kept changing and he’s adjusting to that accordingly. |
Did his role change to move less off the ball and dribble more? I doubt it. |
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AFireInside619
Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 11447
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Trading Ingram for Draymond is dumb and out of the question. Why? Because we are aiming for Durant next season. Why didn’t we make an offer for Kyrie? Exactly. |
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Killakobe81
Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2008
Posts: 1604
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | Staccatos wrote: | I think we're missing the real issue between BI's girlfriend and his sidechick. Brandon doesn't know to drive LEFT or RIGHT which is leading to more turnovers.
https://twitter.com/BSO/status/1062588674896998401
| Quote: | | Brandon Ingram's Girlfriend Trolled His Stripper Side Chick on IG About Ingram Getting Her Better Seats at Lakers Game; GF Ok With Him Having Thotourage™ As Long as She Gets The Best Seats (IG Video-Pics) |
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Thotourage. Classic. |
I also find that hilarious thotourage with the trademark symbol is epic.
Ingram needs to be just as prolific on the court ... |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
It’s not about a couple of bad games and you know this. It’s acout jusging the entirety of his career thus far, good and bad, and recognizing growth or the lack there of and making projections. Nobody is judging him off strictly a few bad games. With that said, he has the potential to be much better than Prince immediately IMO but has shown the willingness to be. As somebody mentioned early, being willing to sacrifice for the team and accept a role is a huge part of basketball and he’s shown he’s unwilling to accept that. If that changes, his raw stats will likely decrease but he’ll be a much better basketball player. I’m starting to believe he’s only about what’s best for himself though. |
I don't think of him as a selfish player... Kuzma is the only youngster who seems to play that way... but I think we need that from him because we have too many Robins on the team including sometimes LBJ.
Even Hart shows more alpha tendencies than BI... though I think Luke keeps him under control by pulling him when he shoots too much.
(I'm going by his summer league performance where he tried to take over every game)
I think BI is instructed to be aggressive and find his shot, but just hasn't been very good at it this year. I don't think he's a selfish player by nature and is a good passer who often finds the open man.
On the plus side, unlike Lonzo... his shot seems barely off... a lot of in and out near miss shots. He rarely misses badly.
Again, like everyone else... I think he's played poorly the last two games... especially his stubborn insistence driving into traffic and losing the ball, but his averages were online for improvement three games ago.
If he keeps playing like this deep in the season... then yes, I will be concerned. But I bring up Prince because I think we are viewing the past through rose colored glasses and not seeing the everyday average Prince that Detroit fans had to watch every game. Ingram's poor play is equal to Prince's playoff highs. That should tell you something about his potential. |
I’m not doubting his potential, I’m doubting his willingness to make the sacrifices necessary to reach it. He’s either selfish(my thoughts), stupid(I don’t think so), or not being coached(possibly but I hope not). It’s a combination of selfishness and the coaching staff not holding him accountable IMO. Whether he plays good or bad, I don’t see a huge variation in how he plays on the offensive end. He waits for the ball too much and doesn’t look to pass enough when he gets it and draws the defense.
I get why people disagree, I HOPE I’m wrong about him. I’m just tired of the “he’s only had two bad games and people wanna trade him” nonsense. That’s not what’s happening. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | Trading Ingram for Draymond is dumb and out of the question. Why? Because we are aiming for Durant next season. Why didn’t we make an offer for Kyrie? Exactly. |
Cause Kyrie was under contract...  |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: |
I’m not doubting his potential, I’m doubting his willingness to make the sacrifices necessary to reach it. He’s either selfish(my thoughts), stupid(I don’t think so), or not being coached(possibly but I hope not). It’s a combination of selfishness and the coaching staff not holding him accountable IMO. Whether he plays good or bad, I don’t see a huge variation in how he plays on the offensive end. He waits for the ball too much and doesn’t look to pass enough when he gets it and draws the defense.
I get why people disagree, I HOPE I’m wrong about him. I’m just tired of the “he’s only had two bad games and people wanna trade him” nonsense. That’s not what’s happening. |
I get frustrated too... but you have to be careful about lacking patience with 20 year old players.
DLO put up 31 last night and I was an anti DLO person... the difference between DLO vs Randle or Ingram... is that Randle improved each year... and Ingram improved between his rookie and 2nd year... where DLO's efficiency seemed to be stagnant.
If Ingram doesn't improve this year... then I can understand if he goes the route of DLO... but it's way too early to make that determination.
As long as there is growth, I will feel he's a good investment... and remember that he's the one forced to make the biggest adjustment as the player whose place LBJ has taken over on the team. |
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sonic the laker
Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 2063
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Yea trading Marc Gasol for Pau was a terrible move... |
A perfect good example. Pau got us 2 rings. Memphis has a long playoffs run. Easy for me which team I would rather be. |
Actually, no. It's a horrible example, honestly. Marc hadn't played one game for the Lakers, so of course it was a no-brainer to trade a freshly drafted rookie, for a star player, still in his prime. Also, the Lakers had a prime Kobe, who was extremely insistent on the Lakers upgrading the roster, or trading him away.
Not sure what scenario is out there, that Ingram nets the Lakers an "in prime" star player. Other than the fantasies of posters on these forums, that is. So, more realistically, if the Lakers traded Ingram this season, it would be for complimentary pieces for a "past-prime" LeBron. That's sacrificing the future, for the present.
And, while I don't know if Ingram will be a star player, I do know that it's short sighted to give up on a 21 year old player, who's shown lots of potential, imo.
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ZOOM!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: |
I’m not doubting his potential, I’m doubting his willingness to make the sacrifices necessary to reach it. He’s either selfish(my thoughts), stupid(I don’t think so), or not being coached(possibly but I hope not). It’s a combination of selfishness and the coaching staff not holding him accountable IMO. Whether he plays good or bad, I don’t see a huge variation in how he plays on the offensive end. He waits for the ball too much and doesn’t look to pass enough when he gets it and draws the defense.
I get why people disagree, I HOPE I’m wrong about him. I’m just tired of the “he’s only had two bad games and people wanna trade him” nonsense. That’s not what’s happening. |
I get frustrated too... but you have to be careful about lacking patience with 20 year old players.
DLO put up 31 last night and I was an anti DLO person... the difference between DLO vs Randle or Ingram... is that Randle improved each year... and Ingram improved between his rookie and 2nd year... where DLO's efficiency seemed to be stagnant.
If Ingram doesn't improve this year... then I can understand if he goes the route of DLO... but it's way too early to make that determination.
As long as there is growth, I will feel he's a good investment... and remember that he's the one forced to make the biggest adjustment as the player whose place LBJ has taken over on the team. |
And you have to be just as careful being too patient when stars become available for these 20 year olds. I think we were too patient. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Yea trading Marc Gasol for Pau was a terrible move... |
A perfect good example. Pau got us 2 rings. Memphis has a long playoffs run. Easy for me which team I would rather be. |
Actually, no. It's a horrible example, honestly. Marc hadn't played one game for the Lakers, so of course it was a no-brainer to trade a freshly drafted rookie, for a star player, still in his prime. Also, the Lakers had a prime Kobe, who was extremely insistent on the Lakers upgrading the roster, or trading him away.
Not sure what scenario is out there, that Ingram nets the Lakers an "in prime" star player. Other than the fantasies of posters on these forums, that is. So, more realistically, if the Lakers traded Ingram this season, it would be for complimentary pieces for a "past-prime" LeBron. That's sacrificing the future, for the present.
And, while I don't know if Ingram will be a star player, I do know that it's short sighted to give up on a 21 year old player, who's shown lots of potential, imo. |
It’s not apples to apples but it’s the last star trade we made and it’s similar.
We didn’t give up “untouchable” Ingram for PG. I still believe Pop would’ve been willing to trade us Kawhi for Kuz, Ingram and a few picks as well. Short sighted or not, we should’ve made those moves IMO. |
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Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Yea trading Marc Gasol for Pau was a terrible move... |
A perfect good example. Pau got us 2 rings. Memphis has a long playoffs run. Easy for me which team I would rather be. |
Actually, no. It's a horrible example, honestly. Marc hadn't played one game for the Lakers, so of course it was a no-brainer to trade a freshly drafted rookie, for a star player, still in his prime. Also, the Lakers had a prime Kobe, who was extremely insistent on the Lakers upgrading the roster, or trading him away.
Not sure what scenario is out there, that Ingram nets the Lakers an "in prime" star player. Other than the fantasies of posters on these forums, that is. So, more realistically, if the Lakers traded Ingram this season, it would be for complimentary pieces for a "past-prime" LeBron. That's sacrificing the future, for the present.
And, while I don't know if Ingram will be a star player, I do know that it's short sighted to give up on a 21 year old player, who's shown lots of potential, imo. |
It’s not apples to apples but it’s the last star trade we made and it’s similar.
We didn’t give up “untouchable” Ingram for PG. I still believe Pop would’ve been willing to trade us Kawhi for Kuz, Ingram and a few picks as well. Short sighted or not, we should’ve made those moves IMO. |
Pure speculation, but I believe we were the ones who passed on PG and allowed him to save face by letting him reject us.
I think we created the 38 million cap space with a target already in hand... and from the looks of things it might be Durant. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Yea trading Marc Gasol for Pau was a terrible move... |
A perfect good example. Pau got us 2 rings. Memphis has a long playoffs run. Easy for me which team I would rather be. |
Actually, no. It's a horrible example, honestly. Marc hadn't played one game for the Lakers, so of course it was a no-brainer to trade a freshly drafted rookie, for a star player, still in his prime. Also, the Lakers had a prime Kobe, who was extremely insistent on the Lakers upgrading the roster, or trading him away.
Not sure what scenario is out there, that Ingram nets the Lakers an "in prime" star player. Other than the fantasies of posters on these forums, that is. So, more realistically, if the Lakers traded Ingram this season, it would be for complimentary pieces for a "past-prime" LeBron. That's sacrificing the future, for the present.
And, while I don't know if Ingram will be a star player, I do know that it's short sighted to give up on a 21 year old player, who's shown lots of potential, imo. |
It’s not apples to apples but it’s the last star trade we made and it’s similar.
We didn’t give up “untouchable” Ingram for PG. I still believe Pop would’ve been willing to trade us Kawhi for Kuz, Ingram and a few picks as well. Short sighted or not, we should’ve made those moves IMO. |
Pure speculation, but I believe we were the ones who passed on PG and allowed him to save face by letting him reject us.
I think we created the 38 million cap space with a target already in hand... and from the looks of things it might be Durant. |
If we get Durant then it was the right move to pass on that.
Zo/KD/LeBron/Kuz or Ingram/Vet big(McGee?)
Bench:Vet min PG(Rondo?),Hart,Ingram or Kuz, Svi, Mo maybe another Vet min big.
That’s a possible dynasty. |
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Threatt_Level
Starting Rotation
Joined: 30 Jul 2014
Posts: 467
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: |
Pure speculation, but I believe we were the ones who passed on PG and allowed him to save face by letting him reject us.
I think we created the 38 million cap space with a target already in hand... and from the looks of things it might be Durant. |
What's not speculation is that we passed on trading for PG, because we didn't want to trade Ingram. Ingram hadn't shown anything at that point to justify being held on to for a legit All Star who's in the middle of his prime. |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
It’s not about a couple of bad games and you know this. It’s acout jusging the entirety of his career thus far, good and bad, and recognizing growth or the lack there of and making projections. Nobody is judging him off strictly a few bad games. With that said, he has the potential to be much better than Prince immediately IMO but has shown the willingness to be. As somebody mentioned early, being willing to sacrifice for the team and accept a role is a huge part of basketball and he’s shown he’s unwilling to accept that. If that changes, his raw stats will likely decrease but he’ll be a much better basketball player. I’m starting to believe he’s only about what’s best for himself though. |
Lol if he’s all about himself then he would play the same way. His roles kept changing and he’s adjusting to that accordingly. |
Did his role change to move less off the ball and dribble more? I doubt it. |
His role is changing from scorer to playmaker. It’s a disconnect to make him something he’s not. |
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