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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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 Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
It’s not about a couple of bad games and you know this. It’s acout jusging the entirety of his career thus far, good and bad, and recognizing growth or the lack there of and making projections. Nobody is judging him off strictly a few bad games. With that said, he has the potential to be much better than Prince immediately IMO but has shown the willingness to be. As somebody mentioned early, being willing to sacrifice for the team and accept a role is a huge part of basketball and he’s shown he’s unwilling to accept that. If that changes, his raw stats will likely decrease but he’ll be a much better basketball player. I’m starting to believe he’s only about what’s best for himself though. |
Lol if he’s all about himself then he would play the same way. His roles kept changing and he’s adjusting to that accordingly. |
Did his role change to move less off the ball and dribble more? I doubt it. |
His role is changing from scorer to playmaker. It’s a disconnect to make him something he’s not. |
But he’s trying to playmaje less and is trying to score more. I don’t think you’re correct. |
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Threatt_Level
Starting Rotation
Joined: 30 Jul 2014
Posts: 467
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: |
It’s not apples to apples but it’s the last star trade we made and it’s similar.
We didn’t give up “untouchable” Ingram for PG. I still believe Pop would’ve been willing to trade us Kawhi for Kuz, Ingram and a few picks as well. Short sighted or not, we should’ve made those moves IMO. |
I agree. Kuz, Ingram, 2 first rounders, and 2 second rounders from the jump probably would've pushed Pop off his "no trade to the Lakers" stance and secured Kawhi. Magic messed up by trying to finesse him.
People get way too hung up on potential. When you have a chance to get a top 5 NBA player, it's always a mistake to pass it up for a young player with potential, unless they're absolutely "can't miss" superstar prospects. Ingram is nowhere near that. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Threatt_Level wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: |
It’s not apples to apples but it’s the last star trade we made and it’s similar.
We didn’t give up “untouchable” Ingram for PG. I still believe Pop would’ve been willing to trade us Kawhi for Kuz, Ingram and a few picks as well. Short sighted or not, we should’ve made those moves IMO. |
People get way too hung up on potential. When you have a chance to get a top 5 NBA player, it's always a mistake to pass it up for a young player with potential, unless they're absolutely "can't miss" superstar prospects. Ingram is nowhere near that. |
We could have gotten PG straight up for Ingram. We would a clear top 2 team in the NBA if we did that. |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | Yellow wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Ingram averaged more points or assists per game at 20 than Tayshaun did during his entire career... and averaged more rebounds than all but one year... yet people have determined that BI won't exceed him or end up worse.
How do people come up with these calculations? |
Raw numbers don't reveal much. If Ingram is going to become a high level contributor, it (probably) won't come with him acting as a high usage ball handler. Knowing your limitations is a virtue. For instance, Prince didn't turn over the ball, once a game for his career.
Fittingly, Prince also struggled to extend his range to the three-point line. He never substantially increased his range from distance. That impacted his efficiency. That said, like his teammate Rip Hamilton, he came up in an era that didn't fully realize the value of the three-point shot. Less than half of Prince's shots came from the rim or three. |
Obviously I know I'm oversimplifying when I use the major categories to state a player's value... but it's the best way to communicate context to the widest audience.
Tayshaun averaged 3 points a game at 22... Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Yet many here have called him a scrub we should unload. Only Caris and Jamal were averaging more than him from his draft class... and he's having a terrible start. Imagine if he started playing well again. He's producing these numbers playing like crap.
If he continues losing the ball in traffic, bricking midrange shots, getting into foul trouble all season long... sure, maybe you consider sending him off in a trade.
But this tendency for people to extrapolate the future of our players from a couple weeks of bad games is frustrating.
I only wish they were actual general managers, so our gms could fleece them when they made their knee jerk reactions. |
It’s not about a couple of bad games and you know this. It’s acout jusging the entirety of his career thus far, good and bad, and recognizing growth or the lack there of and making projections. Nobody is judging him off strictly a few bad games. With that said, he has the potential to be much better than Prince immediately IMO but has shown the willingness to be. As somebody mentioned early, being willing to sacrifice for the team and accept a role is a huge part of basketball and he’s shown he’s unwilling to accept that. If that changes, his raw stats will likely decrease but he’ll be a much better basketball player. I’m starting to believe he’s only about what’s best for himself though. |
Lol if he’s all about himself then he would play the same way. His roles kept changing and he’s adjusting to that accordingly. |
Did his role change to move less off the ball and dribble more? I doubt it. |
His role is changing from scorer to playmaker. It’s a disconnect to make him something he’s not. |
But he’s trying to playmaje less and is trying to score more. I don’t think you’re correct. |
Rookie year. Playmaker then scorer within the team concept
2nd year : iso Scorer then playmaker
3rd : iso Scorer then from what it looks like right now playmaker and defensive stopper.
His role was never the same. Early last year , we thought that he will ready to take over, that did not happen. Same again this year. Now he’s adjusting again. |
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CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Yea trading Marc Gasol for Pau was a terrible move... |
A perfect good example. Pau got us 2 rings. Memphis has a long playoffs run. Easy for me which team I would rather be. |
Actually, no. It's a horrible example, honestly. Marc hadn't played one game for the Lakers, so of course it was a no-brainer to trade a freshly drafted rookie, for a star player, still in his prime. Also, the Lakers had a prime Kobe, who was extremely insistent on the Lakers upgrading the roster, or trading him away.
Not sure what scenario is out there, that Ingram nets the Lakers an "in prime" star player. Other than the fantasies of posters on these forums, that is. So, more realistically, if the Lakers traded Ingram this season, it would be for complimentary pieces for a "past-prime" LeBron. That's sacrificing the future, for the present.
And, while I don't know if Ingram will be a star player, I do know that it's short sighted to give up on a 21 year old player, who's shown lots of potential, imo. |
We are talking about our end game. I’ll trade Ingram if it results us 2 rings even if we miss the playoff for another 5 years |
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Sina
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 1815
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I still believe in BI. He is a bit off this season so far. It’s not easy to adjust himself to play with an all time great in LeBron, especially he play the same position to LeBron. He needs some help from the coach too. And Luke is finally play him the right way. I believe he can overcome finally. We’ve to show him love an be patient |
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sonic the laker
Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| CRoost wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | sonic the laker wrote: | | CRoost wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | Would any of you trade BI and filler for Draymond, assuming we have no shot at KD because GS is doing everything they can to appease him and make him stay? Not a serious question, but just curious how people feel about that one... |
We'd win the trade for three years... maybe even a chip or two... but the Warriors would win after that. |
A ring or 2 is more than enough even if Ingram reach his potential later on. |
And, it's this type of mentality that keeps some teams on perpetual treadmills. Always looking/sacrificing long term sustainability, for short term gains. I hope the FO doesn't see things in the same light. People seem to have forgotten the purgatory the Lakers went through, not too long ago. Smh. |
Yea trading Marc Gasol for Pau was a terrible move... |
A perfect good example. Pau got us 2 rings. Memphis has a long playoffs run. Easy for me which team I would rather be. |
Actually, no. It's a horrible example, honestly. Marc hadn't played one game for the Lakers, so of course it was a no-brainer to trade a freshly drafted rookie, for a star player, still in his prime. Also, the Lakers had a prime Kobe, who was extremely insistent on the Lakers upgrading the roster, or trading him away.
Not sure what scenario is out there, that Ingram nets the Lakers an "in prime" star player. Other than the fantasies of posters on these forums, that is. So, more realistically, if the Lakers traded Ingram this season, it would be for complimentary pieces for a "past-prime" LeBron. That's sacrificing the future, for the present.
And, while I don't know if Ingram will be a star player, I do know that it's short sighted to give up on a 21 year old player, who's shown lots of potential, imo. |
We are talking about our end game. I’ll trade Ingram if it results us 2 rings even if we miss the playoff for another 5 years |
Fair enough. Only think I can say to that is, I'm glad you're not making FO decisions for the Lakers. And, I hope the FO see's things much differently than you do. We'll see.
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KeepItRealOrElse
Retired Number
Joined: 11 Oct 2012
Posts: 32767
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Trading Ingram for PG is an amazing haul.
Could we even get Beal for Ingram at this point? |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | Trading Ingram for PG is an amazing haul.
Could we even get Beal for Ingram at this point? |
Yea Washington is a mess and would do that. |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29369
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | Trading Ingram for PG is an amazing haul.
Could we even get Beal for Ingram at this point? |
Was that ever a one for one option? Cause I thought they wanted Ingram and then some. Like Kuzma and/or Hart. I mean Indy got Oladipo and Sabonis.
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€H£M£$TR¥
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Joined: 03 Apr 2017
Posts: 3782
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I believe BI will make all of you regret second guessing him. He’s got more fight in him than anyone - ANYONE on our team. I prefer scrappy players like that. He’s not gonna give up, he doesn’t know how. He wasn’t pampered in his upbringing.
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | Trading Ingram for PG is an amazing haul.
Could we even get Beal for Ingram at this point? |
Was that ever a one for one option? Cause I thought they wanted Ingram and then some. Like Kuzma and/or Hart. I mean Indy got Oladipo and Sabonis. |
Oladipo was a bad contract and Sabonis was a non-lotto pick who just came off of a meh rookie season. The perception of both players at the time wasn't what it is now. |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29369
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | Trading Ingram for PG is an amazing haul.
Could we even get Beal for Ingram at this point? |
Was that ever a one for one option? Cause I thought they wanted Ingram and then some. Like Kuzma and/or Hart. I mean Indy got Oladipo and Sabonis. |
Oladipo was a bad contract and Sabonis was a non-lotto pick who just came off of a meh rookie season. The perception of both players at the time wasn't what it is now. |
So, Indy wanted PG13 for just Ingram? Genuinely asking. Cause it's the first time I'm hearing this.
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| This kid keeps trying to play a style he’s not good at |
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drae
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 16144
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| An all round game always takes longer to develop, and Ingram is still very much in development. In my opinion though he needs to come off the bench. |
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al242
Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2012
Posts: 3122
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | | An all round game always takes longer to develop, and Ingram is still very much in development. In my opinion though he needs to come off the bench. |
Says the guy who conveniently joined LG yesterday  |
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AllorNothing
Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2001
Posts: 18448
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| His 3 pt. shooting is so smooth but he's afraid to shoot those open shots. He wants to shoot the midrange shot with a midget in his face. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Nicer flow tonight. Love the passing.
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VicXLakers
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Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Posts: 11823
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| al242 wrote: | | drae wrote: | | An all round game always takes longer to develop, and Ingram is still very much in development. In my opinion though he needs to come off the bench. |
Says the guy who conveniently joined LG yesterday |
that would make someone wrong? |
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CervantesRises
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2016
Posts: 3918
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Sina wrote: | | I still believe in BI. He is a bit off this season so far. It’s not easy to adjust himself to play with an all time great in LeBron, especially he play the same position to LeBron. He needs some help from the coach too. And Luke is finally play him the right way. I believe he can overcome finally. We’ve to show him love an be patient |
He's not a 2.
He's a 3.
We signed the best 3 of all-time.
Nothing wrong with him coming off the bench or sitting Kuz down.
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RusselDoeee01
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Joined: 28 Apr 2014
Posts: 1074
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Great game from Ingram tonight |
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Villain6Activated
Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 6697
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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He's capable of having good/decent games like tonight, problem is he follows it up with 3-4 game streaks of playing like absolute trash.I'll be optimistic when he shows atleast some level of consistency. Also, 2 rebounds in 32 minutes is pathetic. Also missed his last 3 shots to go back to his usual (bleep) efficiency.
I'm not too pleased to be honest but what do I know
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LuciusAllen
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Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 5787
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| 1ngr4m wrote: | He's capable of having good/decent games like tonight, problem is he follows it up with 3-4 game streaks of playing like absolute trash.I'll be optimistic when he shows atleast some level of consistency. Also, 2 rebounds in 32 minutes is pathetic. Also missed his last 3 shots to go back to his usual (bleep) efficiency.
I'm not too pleased to be honest but what do I know |
Just be patient with your namesake. |
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Lakesh0wtime
Star Player
Joined: 28 Mar 2016
Posts: 5364
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Damn you! Messed up the triple double |
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RusselDoeee01
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2014
Posts: 1074
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| 1ngr4m wrote: | He's capable of having good/decent games like tonight, problem is he follows it up with 3-4 game streaks of playing like absolute trash.I'll be optimistic when he shows atleast some level of consistency. Also, 2 rebounds in 32 minutes is pathetic. Also missed his last 3 shots to go back to his usual (bleep) efficiency.
I'm not too pleased to be honest but what do I know |
He’s 21 and he’s on a team where he doesn’t have to take over to win. It’s easy to get caught watching and not in a rhythm when there is no pressure on you |
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