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Luminous8
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Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | andrewc wrote: | | RusselDoeee01 wrote: | | Great game from Ingram tonight |
What game are you watching? He looks mediocre at best and it's so maddening to watch him continue to shoot the mid-range like somehow he'll suddenly start hitting them like Kobe-time. Almost looks like his game has regressed. |
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6-15 shooting and 2 rebounds. Every other Laker who played tonight, except Rondo, had at least 4.
Last game was 3 rebounds. |
Aren’t you a big Kuzma supporter and you’re going to call out the guy who’s role is to leak out, out for rebounding? How many games has Kuzma a “pf” had 3 or less rebounds? |
Luke has said he wants everybody rebounding and doesn’t want them leaking out before we get possession. Kuzma(as well as the other young guys) is a better rebounder. |
Kuzma plays closer to the rim quite frequently yet he has countless games of 2-3 rebounds himself. The guy only averages 4.9 as a pf but we’re getting on Ingram because his rebounding numbers are poor? Bi should be getting 6-7 rebounds a game, but let’s not try and act as if anything less than 7–8 is acceptable for Kuz,... especially when Kuz isn’t exerting the kind of energy on D that Brandon is. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| TheeLakeshow wrote: | Apparently I am watching a different player. You can look at the box score and piece together what you want from his play offensively but when I am at the game, or on a rare occasion that I have to be home to watch it, I see a guy that is being asked to shoulder and deliver one of the hardest aspects of the game.
The team doesent have a big threat off curl actions. The team doesent really have a mid range threat at all in the half court aside from Lebron. BI is on the cusp of being pretty good from that spot on the floor. Sure his shot selection and decision making needs to improve but for goodness sakes do you all see some of the shots hes taking and knocking down? Highly contested off the dribble and or big time fades in traffic or over dude. Is he missing some? Sure, but right now he plays D, and is active and long in the passing lanes. Lebron believes in him enough verbally back the kid which Lebron doesen just walk around doing. He also believes in him enough to go to him and in certain stretches return to the well 2-3 times in a row in some cases like tonight. This is called development, its great for the film room, its great for a lot of things.
BI isnt going to take this big tool chest of skills he has and magically put them together year two, im sorry very few players ever have. Hes working one aspect at a time and doing it while also remaining engaged on D. This isnt a red flag guys. Every game we get a smidge more in one area and maybe less in another. This year is about melding that together.
Hes 21, he was 6-15 tonight, scored 17 points on mostly highly contested jumper iso sets when we needed buckets and we as a fan base are upset? Be upset over his rebounding or his inability to process all of this together and be a stud right this second but dont be upset over that. Enjoy watching him process how to be great and you will enjoy it all the more trust me..... |
He's not a threat off of screens either, because he always curls. He almost never flares screens because he's not comfortable with shooting the 3 off of those. Teams defend him the same way every time and they're more than happy with giving up the 0.80-0.85 Points Per Possession that he's going to score off of those against a team where their other half-court possessions are a lot more productive.
And I couldn't disagree more with the idea that someone needs to bear the burden of taking mid-range, contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds left on the clock. The vast majority of those shots aren't necessary and they could/should be doing something else. But that's how he can get to the 15 shots per game that HE wants, because if he's just playing within the offense he's only getting 8-9 since because of how uncomfortable he is getting shots up quickly. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | andrewc wrote: | | RusselDoeee01 wrote: | | Great game from Ingram tonight |
What game are you watching? He looks mediocre at best and it's so maddening to watch him continue to shoot the mid-range like somehow he'll suddenly start hitting them like Kobe-time. Almost looks like his game has regressed. |
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6-15 shooting and 2 rebounds. Every other Laker who played tonight, except Rondo, had at least 4.
Last game was 3 rebounds. |
Aren’t you a big Kuzma supporter and you’re going to call out the guy who’s role is to leak out, out for rebounding? How many games has Kuzma a “pf” had 3 or less rebounds? |
Luke has said he wants everybody rebounding and doesn’t want them leaking out before we get possession. Kuzma(as well as the other young guys) is a better rebounder. |
Kuzma plays closer to the rim quite frequently yet he has countless games of 2-3 rebounds himself. The guy only averages 4.9 as a pf but we’re getting on Ingram because his rebounding numbers are poor? Bi should be getting 6-7 rebounds a game, but let’s not try and act as if anything less than 7–8 is acceptable for Kuz,... especially when Kuz isn’t exerting the kind of energy on D that Brandon is. |
Fine but stop blaming Ingram’s shortcomings on role. It’s a commonly used excuse and is usually inaccurate. You brought up Kuz when Ingram’s poor rebounding was mentioned. Why must we acknowledge Kuzmas rebounding every time we mention Ingram’s IN THE INGRAM THREAD?
Ingram is soft on the boards. He doesbt look willing to deal with contact and grab rebounds. He’d rather leak out(because he wants to not Luke) than go grab a board. That doesn’t have anything to do with Kuz. |
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greenfrog
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Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| saetarubia wrote: | | Quote: |
@UnwrittenRul3s
Brandon Ingrams defense has taken a big step this season and last night was no different. Lakers stuck him on CJ McCollum and he did a really nice job using his length to create problems on that end of the floor. His highlights from the win: |
https://twitter.com/UnwrittenRul3s/status/1063065736929665025 |
He certainly plays his ass off on that end, and CJ had a mediocre game, but I'm not sure anyone can say he or we won that matchup last night. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Ingram needs to refine his shot selection and stop passing up 3s. But any problems with his O have been more than made up for with his D. He and Zo are killing it defensively, although Ingram has been more consistent night to night.
Really would love to see Ingram assume all the back up PG minutes with Rondo gone. I think, like last year, that would really help to unlock his game offensively.
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | Ingram needs to refine his shot selection and stop passing up 3s. But any problems with his O have been more than made up for with his D. He and Zo are killing it defensively, although Ingram has been more consistent night to night.
Really would love to see Ingram assume all the back up PG minutes with Rondo gone. I think, like last year, that would really help to unlock his game offensively. |
100% agree.
No coincidence that with BI/Lonzo's increased D, and LBJ's starting to emerge from his slumber (though he was still averaging 27/8/8  ) have led to 4 straight wins.
I also do not want to see Lance running the 2nd unit. It should be BI. Let him run that 2nd unit while LBJ sits.
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epak
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | Ingram needs to refine his shot selection and stop passing up 3s. But any problems with his O have been more than made up for with his D. He and Zo are killing it defensively, although Ingram has been more consistent night to night.
Really would love to see Ingram assume all the back up PG minutes with Rondo gone. I think, like last year, that would really help to unlock his game offensively. |
The game thread was funny when BI shot the 3 at the end of the game instead of using up clock.
What worries me about BI is he keeps saying "I'm in attack mode." He seems to think taking bad shots equates to being in "attack mode." |
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splashmtn
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | Apparently I am watching a different player. You can look at the box score and piece together what you want from his play offensively but when I am at the game, or on a rare occasion that I have to be home to watch it, I see a guy that is being asked to shoulder and deliver one of the hardest aspects of the game.
The team doesent have a big threat off curl actions. The team doesent really have a mid range threat at all in the half court aside from Lebron. BI is on the cusp of being pretty good from that spot on the floor. Sure his shot selection and decision making needs to improve but for goodness sakes do you all see some of the shots hes taking and knocking down? Highly contested off the dribble and or big time fades in traffic or over dude. Is he missing some? Sure, but right now he plays D, and is active and long in the passing lanes. Lebron believes in him enough verbally back the kid which Lebron doesen just walk around doing. He also believes in him enough to go to him and in certain stretches return to the well 2-3 times in a row in some cases like tonight. This is called development, its great for the film room, its great for a lot of things.
BI isnt going to take this big tool chest of skills he has and magically put them together year two, im sorry very few players ever have. Hes working one aspect at a time and doing it while also remaining engaged on D. This isnt a red flag guys. Every game we get a smidge more in one area and maybe less in another. This year is about melding that together.
Hes 21, he was 6-15 tonight, scored 17 points on mostly highly contested jumper iso sets when we needed buckets and we as a fan base are upset? Be upset over his rebounding or his inability to process all of this together and be a stud right this second but dont be upset over that. Enjoy watching him process how to be great and you will enjoy it all the more trust me..... |
He's not a threat off of screens either, because he always curls. He almost never flares screens because he's not comfortable with shooting the 3 off of those. Teams defend him the same way every time and they're more than happy with giving up the 0.80-0.85 Points Per Possession that he's going to score off of those against a team where their other half-court possessions are a lot more productive.
And I couldn't disagree more with the idea that someone needs to bear the burden of taking mid-range, contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds left on the clock. The vast majority of those shots aren't necessary and they could/should be doing something else. But that's how he can get to the 15 shots per game that HE wants, because if he's just playing within the offense he's only getting 8-9 since because of how uncomfortable he is getting shots up quickly. |
can i agree with both of you? lol. but more so with GT. he has a lot to work on and skills to hone in. but i'm not worried about him either. because i do see a ton of progress from where he was as a rookie til now. If i didnt, then i would be worried. |
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kikanga
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Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | can i agree with both of you? lol. but more so with GT. he has a lot to work on and skills to hone in. but i'm not worried about him either. because i do see a ton of progress from where he was as a rookie til now. If i didnt, then i would be worried. |
I'm on your page.
Despite relying on low PPP shots. He is still helping us win games.
By defending the opposing team's best wing player it takes the stress off of Lebron defensively. So LBJ can have near 44 point triple-doubles.
Nobody else on our team can do what Ingram does defensively. Nobody else on our team has his mix of length and athleticism.
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AFireInside619
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Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 11447
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| BI is a notorious slow starter. Add Lebron and that tacks on a few more weeks. Add the pressure of being a go to scorer and that tacks on another month. Cant wait until he just plays basketball, because that’s when he’s at his best. Also, I hope he takes all the back up point guard minutes. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| His defense has been marvelous he’s given problems to CJ/Butler among others all season long, once his offense comes around by the ASB this team is gonna have a chance to go all the way to June. |
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RCS926
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Joined: 05 Nov 2003
Posts: 16824
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | can i agree with both of you? lol. but more so with GT. he has a lot to work on and skills to hone in. but i'm not worried about him either. because i do see a ton of progress from where he was as a rookie til now. If i didnt, then i would be worried. |
I'm on your page.
Despite relying on low PPP shots. He is still helping us win games.
By defending the opposing team's best wing player it takes the stress off of Lebron defensively. So LBJ can have near 44 point triple-doubles.
Nobody else on our team can do what Ingram does defensively. Nobody else on our team has his mix of length and athleticism. |
As cringeworthy as BI's offense has been at times, I agree that his defense is extremely vital to our success. The loss to the Spurs in SA made that abundantly clear as Derozan and Gay took turns abusing undersized defenders. |
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TheeLakeshow
Star Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2011
Posts: 1456
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | Apparently I am watching a different player. You can look at the box score and piece together what you want from his play offensively but when I am at the game, or on a rare occasion that I have to be home to watch it, I see a guy that is being asked to shoulder and deliver one of the hardest aspects of the game.
The team doesent have a big threat off curl actions. The team doesent really have a mid range threat at all in the half court aside from Lebron. BI is on the cusp of being pretty good from that spot on the floor. Sure his shot selection and decision making needs to improve but for goodness sakes do you all see some of the shots hes taking and knocking down? Highly contested off the dribble and or big time fades in traffic or over dude. Is he missing some? Sure, but right now he plays D, and is active and long in the passing lanes. Lebron believes in him enough verbally back the kid which Lebron doesen just walk around doing. He also believes in him enough to go to him and in certain stretches return to the well 2-3 times in a row in some cases like tonight. This is called development, its great for the film room, its great for a lot of things.
BI isnt going to take this big tool chest of skills he has and magically put them together year two, im sorry very few players ever have. Hes working one aspect at a time and doing it while also remaining engaged on D. This isnt a red flag guys. Every game we get a smidge more in one area and maybe less in another. This year is about melding that together.
Hes 21, he was 6-15 tonight, scored 17 points on mostly highly contested jumper iso sets when we needed buckets and we as a fan base are upset? Be upset over his rebounding or his inability to process all of this together and be a stud right this second but dont be upset over that. Enjoy watching him process how to be great and you will enjoy it all the more trust me..... |
He's not a threat off of screens either, because he always curls. He almost never flares screens because he's not comfortable with shooting the 3 off of those. Teams defend him the same way every time and they're more than happy with giving up the 0.80-0.85 Points Per Possession that he's going to score off of those against a team where their other half-court possessions are a lot more productive.
And I couldn't disagree more with the idea that someone needs to bear the burden of taking mid-range, contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds left on the clock. The vast majority of those shots aren't necessary and they could/should be doing something else. But that's how he can get to the 15 shots per game that HE wants, because if he's just playing within the offense he's only getting 8-9 since because of how uncomfortable he is getting shots up quickly. |
Lets be accurate and fair here if you quote me. I dont think I quite said contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds on the clock when describing that every team needs a solid mid range action weapon. While he is taking some of those shots you describe and maybe a few more then I and most would like, my point is that overall I like the direction; and more importantly that you do need a midrange knockdown weapon in the half court in my opinion. We see it now when we are all screaming late in games when we slow the pace down.
You may not and thats fine, but I think part of development is taking some hard shots and really inking certain things that can pay off later. Missing shots, seeing what is and isnt working and spending oodles of time in the film room with teamates discussing such plays is key IMO.. I see a guy developing parts of his game that he thinks he is really good at. My hunch according to outward comments from the staff and his own teamates including Lebron is that hes pretty dynamite in practice. Does he need to improve in games? Yes. Does he need to read those situations and play make etc at times more like he did with Javale in the sequence last night? Absolutely. But I cant help but like a player that at the age of 21 demands the ball, shows the ability at times to dominate and thinks he is capable at winning a matchup every time down the floor.
I might have a different opinion if he was going 8-25 every night. Hes doing all of this while contributing in other areas as well as playing somewhat within the confines.
If he wasnt you can bet your ass Lebron/Rondo and CO would be in his ass in the film room and in the games. They arent, and that along with Lebrons endorsement tells me that they are A ok with him growing within the confines that he is now.
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Thee Jason in LA
Last edited by TheeLakeshow on Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | Apparently I am watching a different player. You can look at the box score and piece together what you want from his play offensively but when I am at the game, or on a rare occasion that I have to be home to watch it, I see a guy that is being asked to shoulder and deliver one of the hardest aspects of the game.
The team doesent have a big threat off curl actions. The team doesent really have a mid range threat at all in the half court aside from Lebron. BI is on the cusp of being pretty good from that spot on the floor. Sure his shot selection and decision making needs to improve but for goodness sakes do you all see some of the shots hes taking and knocking down? Highly contested off the dribble and or big time fades in traffic or over dude. Is he missing some? Sure, but right now he plays D, and is active and long in the passing lanes. Lebron believes in him enough verbally back the kid which Lebron doesen just walk around doing. He also believes in him enough to go to him and in certain stretches return to the well 2-3 times in a row in some cases like tonight. This is called development, its great for the film room, its great for a lot of things.
BI isnt going to take this big tool chest of skills he has and magically put them together year two, im sorry very few players ever have. Hes working one aspect at a time and doing it while also remaining engaged on D. This isnt a red flag guys. Every game we get a smidge more in one area and maybe less in another. This year is about melding that together.
Hes 21, he was 6-15 tonight, scored 17 points on mostly highly contested jumper iso sets when we needed buckets and we as a fan base are upset? Be upset over his rebounding or his inability to process all of this together and be a stud right this second but dont be upset over that. Enjoy watching him process how to be great and you will enjoy it all the more trust me..... |
He's not a threat off of screens either, because he always curls. He almost never flares screens because he's not comfortable with shooting the 3 off of those. Teams defend him the same way every time and they're more than happy with giving up the 0.80-0.85 Points Per Possession that he's going to score off of those against a team where their other half-court possessions are a lot more productive.
And I couldn't disagree more with the idea that someone needs to bear the burden of taking mid-range, contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds left on the clock. The vast majority of those shots aren't necessary and they could/should be doing something else. But that's how he can get to the 15 shots per game that HE wants, because if he's just playing within the offense he's only getting 8-9 since because of how uncomfortable he is getting shots up quickly. |
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TheeLakeshow
Star Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2011
Posts: 1456
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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We are so early in the process this year with all of the new weapons and yet we are all so glued to the analytical portion of how the team is performing. I think its super important, I am a numbers guy at heart. But I tend to think it really does a disservice to our current situation. And ill stand behind that in regard to every player on our roster.
Its too early IMO. I dont want to box in any of out young guys currently. I just dont. But maybe thats me being a bit loose in that regard.
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TheeLakeshow
Star Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2011
Posts: 1456
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | Apparently I am watching a different player. You can look at the box score and piece together what you want from his play offensively but when I am at the game, or on a rare occasion that I have to be home to watch it, I see a guy that is being asked to shoulder and deliver one of the hardest aspects of the game.
The team doesent have a big threat off curl actions. The team doesent really have a mid range threat at all in the half court aside from Lebron. BI is on the cusp of being pretty good from that spot on the floor. Sure his shot selection and decision making needs to improve but for goodness sakes do you all see some of the shots hes taking and knocking down? Highly contested off the dribble and or big time fades in traffic or over dude. Is he missing some? Sure, but right now he plays D, and is active and long in the passing lanes. Lebron believes in him enough verbally back the kid which Lebron doesen just walk around doing. He also believes in him enough to go to him and in certain stretches return to the well 2-3 times in a row in some cases like tonight. This is called development, its great for the film room, its great for a lot of things.
BI isnt going to take this big tool chest of skills he has and magically put them together year two, im sorry very few players ever have. Hes working one aspect at a time and doing it while also remaining engaged on D. This isnt a red flag guys. Every game we get a smidge more in one area and maybe less in another. This year is about melding that together.
Hes 21, he was 6-15 tonight, scored 17 points on mostly highly contested jumper iso sets when we needed buckets and we as a fan base are upset? Be upset over his rebounding or his inability to process all of this together and be a stud right this second but dont be upset over that. Enjoy watching him process how to be great and you will enjoy it all the more trust me..... |
He's not a threat off of screens either, because he always curls. He almost never flares screens because he's not comfortable with shooting the 3 off of those. Teams defend him the same way every time and they're more than happy with giving up the 0.80-0.85 Points Per Possession that he's going to score off of those against a team where their other half-court possessions are a lot more productive.
And I couldn't disagree more with the idea that someone needs to bear the burden of taking mid-range, contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds left on the clock. The vast majority of those shots aren't necessary and they could/should be doing something else. But that's how he can get to the 15 shots per game that HE wants, because if he's just playing within the offense he's only getting 8-9 since because of how uncomfortable he is getting shots up quickly. |
can i agree with both of you? lol. but more so with GT. he has a lot to work on and skills to hone in. but i'm not worried about him either. because i do see a ton of progress from where he was as a rookie til now. If i didnt, then i would be worried. |
The funny thing is I dont disagree with GT at all. This isnt about trying to prove someone right or wrong. I think its more about asking for a little patience and perspective. I tend to see this thing with big picture goggles on. I for one, am not going to take a player like Ingram, and tell him to change the way he plays the game this early into the season based on his PPP metrics. Im just not. I see some things I really hate and I really love. I dont see enough to tell him to abandon the midrange aspect that he is working on.
That is a really really hard discipline that he is trying to figure out, I just tend to be of the mindset that Ill settle with the below avg metrics as he pieces it together. If we start losing ball games because of it and or he doesent improve I think any rational person would say its time to take a hard look. Again, im just of the opinion we aren't there yet.
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*Paging Mike "Doo Doo" Brown to the front desk*
Thee Jason in LA
Last edited by TheeLakeshow on Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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greenfrog
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| TheeLakeshow wrote: | We are so early in the process this year with all of the new weapons and yet we are all so glued to the analytical portion of how the team is performing. I think its super important, I am a numbers guy at heart. But I tend to think it really does a disservice to our current situation. And ill stand behind that in regard to every player on our roster.
Its too early IMO. I dont want to box in any of out young guys currently. I just dont. But maybe thats me being a bit loose in that regard. |
Is Year 3 too early to start "boxing" in? Year 4 is extension time. I know he looks like a fawn out there, but at some point the reality of who he is and the league he's in has to come into consideration. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| TheeLakeshow wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | Apparently I am watching a different player. You can look at the box score and piece together what you want from his play offensively but when I am at the game, or on a rare occasion that I have to be home to watch it, I see a guy that is being asked to shoulder and deliver one of the hardest aspects of the game.
The team doesent have a big threat off curl actions. The team doesent really have a mid range threat at all in the half court aside from Lebron. BI is on the cusp of being pretty good from that spot on the floor. Sure his shot selection and decision making needs to improve but for goodness sakes do you all see some of the shots hes taking and knocking down? Highly contested off the dribble and or big time fades in traffic or over dude. Is he missing some? Sure, but right now he plays D, and is active and long in the passing lanes. Lebron believes in him enough verbally back the kid which Lebron doesen just walk around doing. He also believes in him enough to go to him and in certain stretches return to the well 2-3 times in a row in some cases like tonight. This is called development, its great for the film room, its great for a lot of things.
BI isnt going to take this big tool chest of skills he has and magically put them together year two, im sorry very few players ever have. Hes working one aspect at a time and doing it while also remaining engaged on D. This isnt a red flag guys. Every game we get a smidge more in one area and maybe less in another. This year is about melding that together.
Hes 21, he was 6-15 tonight, scored 17 points on mostly highly contested jumper iso sets when we needed buckets and we as a fan base are upset? Be upset over his rebounding or his inability to process all of this together and be a stud right this second but dont be upset over that. Enjoy watching him process how to be great and you will enjoy it all the more trust me..... |
He's not a threat off of screens either, because he always curls. He almost never flares screens because he's not comfortable with shooting the 3 off of those. Teams defend him the same way every time and they're more than happy with giving up the 0.80-0.85 Points Per Possession that he's going to score off of those against a team where their other half-court possessions are a lot more productive.
And I couldn't disagree more with the idea that someone needs to bear the burden of taking mid-range, contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds left on the clock. The vast majority of those shots aren't necessary and they could/should be doing something else. But that's how he can get to the 15 shots per game that HE wants, because if he's just playing within the offense he's only getting 8-9 since because of how uncomfortable he is getting shots up quickly. |
can i agree with both of you? lol. but more so with GT. he has a lot to work on and skills to hone in. but i'm not worried about him either. because i do see a ton of progress from where he was as a rookie til now. If i didnt, then i would be worried. |
The funny thing is I dont disagree with GT at all. This isnt about trying to prove someone right or wrong. I think its more about asking for a little patience and perspective. I tend to see this thing with big picture goggles on. I for one, am not going to take a player like Ingram, and tell him to change the way he plays the game this early into the system based on his PPP metrics. Im just not. |
You have to tell players not to take certain shots. Shot selection is one of the most important things in basketball and young players need to learn a good shot from bad shot. If he was a rookie, I get it but it’s his 3rd year and he’s consistently shooting the same poor shots and doesn’t make them. |
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TheeLakeshow
Star Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2011
Posts: 1456
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | We are so early in the process this year with all of the new weapons and yet we are all so glued to the analytical portion of how the team is performing. I think its super important, I am a numbers guy at heart. But I tend to think it really does a disservice to our current situation. And ill stand behind that in regard to every player on our roster.
Its too early IMO. I dont want to box in any of out young guys currently. I just dont. But maybe thats me being a bit loose in that regard. |
Is Year 3 too early to start "boxing" in? Year 4 is extension time. I know he looks like a fawn out there, but at some point the reality of who he is and the league he's in has to come into consideration. |
Super valid. All things considered. I think its too early personally. And I tend to look at prior history when thinking that. Playing alongside a stud like Lebron takes a little time.
I think while his shot selection at times could use some work his overall ability to knock down certain difficult looks is a pretty big improvement from the first 2 years. I think he has to improve his ability to read and react instead of settling for what he likes to do but my goodness isnt that whats part of being a young player? He has all that talent, sometimes it takes a while to figure out the blend. When to drive to the cup, when to take advantage and rise up at the elbow or better yet when to draw guys in and dish. I am hopeful for him and all of our young guys in regard to figuring it out. But I am an optimist.
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*Paging Mike "Doo Doo" Brown to the front desk*
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TheeLakeshow wrote: | Lets be accurate and fair here if you quote me. I dont think I quite said contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds on the clock when describing that every team needs a solid mid range action weapon. While he is taking some of those shots you describe and maybe a few more then I and most would like, my point is that overall I like the direction; and more importantly that you do need a midrange knockdown weapon in the half court in my opinion. We see it now when we are all screaming late in games when we slow the pace down.
You may not and thats fine, but I think part of development is taking some hard shots and really inking certain things that can pay off later. Missing shots, seeing what is and isnt working and spending oodles of time in the film room with teamates discussing such plays is key IMO.. I see a guy developing parts of his game that he thinks he is really good at. My hunch according to outward comments from the staff and his own teamates including Lebron is that hes pretty dynamite in practice. Does he need to improve in games? Yes. Does he need to read those situations and play make etc at times more like he did with Javale in the sequence last night? Absolutely. But I cant help but like a player that at the age of 21 demands the ball, shows the ability at times to dominate and thinks he is capable at winning a matchup every time down the floor.
I might have a different opinion if he was going 8-25 every night. Hes doing all of this while contributing in other areas as well as playing somewhat within the confines.
If he wasnt you can bet your ass Lebron/Rondo and CO would be in his ass in the film room and in the games. They arent, and that along with Lebrons endorsement tells me that they are A ok with him growing within the confines that he is now. |
I think the wiser priority would be getting him to the point where he can take the easier shots the way that others can before letting him explore the hard ones. It's Year 3 and his footwork on catch & shoots is still a mess, to the point where he turns an open shot into a contested one because it takes him so long to get all of the moving parts to work together. It's Year 3 and he still doesn't know how to read screens. It's Year 3 and he either doesn't care enough or doesn't understand where his cutting opportunities are.
Those things are more important than him exploring the difficult shots that you're talking about in an effort to let him be anything that he wants to be when he grows up. |
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€H£M£$TR¥
Star Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2017
Posts: 3782
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | We are so early in the process this year with all of the new weapons and yet we are all so glued to the analytical portion of how the team is performing. I think its super important, I am a numbers guy at heart. But I tend to think it really does a disservice to our current situation. And ill stand behind that in regard to every player on our roster.
Its too early IMO. I dont want to box in any of out young guys currently. I just dont. But maybe thats me being a bit loose in that regard. |
Is Year 3 too early to start "boxing" in? Year 4 is extension time. I know he looks like a fawn out there, but at some point the reality of who he is and the league he's in has to come into consideration. |
In regards to the timeline here... year 4. Consider it a blessing you wouldn’t need to max out BI if he under performs. We can get the Steph Curry discount for him to further development in the P&G while stacking the roster with role playing vets. Or, an exp contract in and of itself holds leverage in trade scenarios. Chill, and hope the best for his evolution. Regardless, BI is benefitting from Bron’s influence. There’s a seminar happening on the bench. It’s like interning at Google. You learn as you are assigned to deliver projects.
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DEAR BASKETBALL |
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TheeLakeshow
Star Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2011
Posts: 1456
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | Apparently I am watching a different player. You can look at the box score and piece together what you want from his play offensively but when I am at the game, or on a rare occasion that I have to be home to watch it, I see a guy that is being asked to shoulder and deliver one of the hardest aspects of the game.
The team doesent have a big threat off curl actions. The team doesent really have a mid range threat at all in the half court aside from Lebron. BI is on the cusp of being pretty good from that spot on the floor. Sure his shot selection and decision making needs to improve but for goodness sakes do you all see some of the shots hes taking and knocking down? Highly contested off the dribble and or big time fades in traffic or over dude. Is he missing some? Sure, but right now he plays D, and is active and long in the passing lanes. Lebron believes in him enough verbally back the kid which Lebron doesen just walk around doing. He also believes in him enough to go to him and in certain stretches return to the well 2-3 times in a row in some cases like tonight. This is called development, its great for the film room, its great for a lot of things.
BI isnt going to take this big tool chest of skills he has and magically put them together year two, im sorry very few players ever have. Hes working one aspect at a time and doing it while also remaining engaged on D. This isnt a red flag guys. Every game we get a smidge more in one area and maybe less in another. This year is about melding that together.
Hes 21, he was 6-15 tonight, scored 17 points on mostly highly contested jumper iso sets when we needed buckets and we as a fan base are upset? Be upset over his rebounding or his inability to process all of this together and be a stud right this second but dont be upset over that. Enjoy watching him process how to be great and you will enjoy it all the more trust me..... |
He's not a threat off of screens either, because he always curls. He almost never flares screens because he's not comfortable with shooting the 3 off of those. Teams defend him the same way every time and they're more than happy with giving up the 0.80-0.85 Points Per Possession that he's going to score off of those against a team where their other half-court possessions are a lot more productive.
And I couldn't disagree more with the idea that someone needs to bear the burden of taking mid-range, contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds left on the clock. The vast majority of those shots aren't necessary and they could/should be doing something else. But that's how he can get to the 15 shots per game that HE wants, because if he's just playing within the offense he's only getting 8-9 since because of how uncomfortable he is getting shots up quickly. |
can i agree with both of you? lol. but more so with GT. he has a lot to work on and skills to hone in. but i'm not worried about him either. because i do see a ton of progress from where he was as a rookie til now. If i didnt, then i would be worried. |
The funny thing is I dont disagree with GT at all. This isnt about trying to prove someone right or wrong. I think its more about asking for a little patience and perspective. I tend to see this thing with big picture goggles on. I for one, am not going to take a player like Ingram, and tell him to change the way he plays the game this early into the system based on his PPP metrics. Im just not. |
You have to tell players not to take certain shots. Shot selection is one of the most important things in basketball and young players need to learn a good shot from bad shot. If he was a rookie, I get it but it’s his 3rd year and he’s consistently shooting the same poor shots and doesn’t make them. |
I totally agree and no doubt that is happening right? I tend to look at how Lebron continues to go to him at that spot as an indicator that his teammates have some semblance of faith in him. If it was a clear cut "we have seen this for years and you arent improving" do you think Lebron who is the ALPHA of all ALPHAS would continue to praise nurture and feed him? I dont think he would personally.
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*Paging Mike "Doo Doo" Brown to the front desk*
Thee Jason in LA |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| TheeLakeshow wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | Apparently I am watching a different player. You can look at the box score and piece together what you want from his play offensively but when I am at the game, or on a rare occasion that I have to be home to watch it, I see a guy that is being asked to shoulder and deliver one of the hardest aspects of the game.
The team doesent have a big threat off curl actions. The team doesent really have a mid range threat at all in the half court aside from Lebron. BI is on the cusp of being pretty good from that spot on the floor. Sure his shot selection and decision making needs to improve but for goodness sakes do you all see some of the shots hes taking and knocking down? Highly contested off the dribble and or big time fades in traffic or over dude. Is he missing some? Sure, but right now he plays D, and is active and long in the passing lanes. Lebron believes in him enough verbally back the kid which Lebron doesen just walk around doing. He also believes in him enough to go to him and in certain stretches return to the well 2-3 times in a row in some cases like tonight. This is called development, its great for the film room, its great for a lot of things.
BI isnt going to take this big tool chest of skills he has and magically put them together year two, im sorry very few players ever have. Hes working one aspect at a time and doing it while also remaining engaged on D. This isnt a red flag guys. Every game we get a smidge more in one area and maybe less in another. This year is about melding that together.
Hes 21, he was 6-15 tonight, scored 17 points on mostly highly contested jumper iso sets when we needed buckets and we as a fan base are upset? Be upset over his rebounding or his inability to process all of this together and be a stud right this second but dont be upset over that. Enjoy watching him process how to be great and you will enjoy it all the more trust me..... |
He's not a threat off of screens either, because he always curls. He almost never flares screens because he's not comfortable with shooting the 3 off of those. Teams defend him the same way every time and they're more than happy with giving up the 0.80-0.85 Points Per Possession that he's going to score off of those against a team where their other half-court possessions are a lot more productive.
And I couldn't disagree more with the idea that someone needs to bear the burden of taking mid-range, contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds left on the clock. The vast majority of those shots aren't necessary and they could/should be doing something else. But that's how he can get to the 15 shots per game that HE wants, because if he's just playing within the offense he's only getting 8-9 since because of how uncomfortable he is getting shots up quickly. |
can i agree with both of you? lol. but more so with GT. he has a lot to work on and skills to hone in. but i'm not worried about him either. because i do see a ton of progress from where he was as a rookie til now. If i didnt, then i would be worried. |
The funny thing is I dont disagree with GT at all. This isnt about trying to prove someone right or wrong. I think its more about asking for a little patience and perspective. I tend to see this thing with big picture goggles on. I for one, am not going to take a player like Ingram, and tell him to change the way he plays the game this early into the system based on his PPP metrics. Im just not. |
You have to tell players not to take certain shots. Shot selection is one of the most important things in basketball and young players need to learn a good shot from bad shot. If he was a rookie, I get it but it’s his 3rd year and he’s consistently shooting the same poor shots and doesn’t make them. |
I totally agree and no doubt that is happening right? I tend to look at how Lebron continues to go to him at that spot as an indicator that his teammates have some semblance of faith in him. If it was a clear cut "we have seen this for years and you arent improving" do you think Lebron who is the ALPHA of all ALPHAS would continue to praise nurture and feed him? I dont think he would personally. |
His shot selection has gotten worse IMO and he’s still not shooting efficiently so I have my doubts. If they are coaching him up to take those shots, I think we need a new staff. |
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TheeLakeshow
Star Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2011
Posts: 1456
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | Lets be accurate and fair here if you quote me. I dont think I quite said contested fadeaways after pump fakes with 12 seconds on the clock when describing that every team needs a solid mid range action weapon. While he is taking some of those shots you describe and maybe a few more then I and most would like, my point is that overall I like the direction; and more importantly that you do need a midrange knockdown weapon in the half court in my opinion. We see it now when we are all screaming late in games when we slow the pace down.
You may not and thats fine, but I think part of development is taking some hard shots and really inking certain things that can pay off later. Missing shots, seeing what is and isnt working and spending oodles of time in the film room with teamates discussing such plays is key IMO.. I see a guy developing parts of his game that he thinks he is really good at. My hunch according to outward comments from the staff and his own teamates including Lebron is that hes pretty dynamite in practice. Does he need to improve in games? Yes. Does he need to read those situations and play make etc at times more like he did with Javale in the sequence last night? Absolutely. But I cant help but like a player that at the age of 21 demands the ball, shows the ability at times to dominate and thinks he is capable at winning a matchup every time down the floor.
I might have a different opinion if he was going 8-25 every night. Hes doing all of this while contributing in other areas as well as playing somewhat within the confines.
If he wasnt you can bet your ass Lebron/Rondo and CO would be in his ass in the film room and in the games. They arent, and that along with Lebrons endorsement tells me that they are A ok with him growing within the confines that he is now. |
I think the wiser priority would be getting him to the point where he can take the easier shots the way that others can before letting him explore the hard ones. It's Year 3 and his footwork on catch & shoots is still a mess, to the point where he turns an open shot into a contested one because it takes him so long to get all of the moving parts to work together. It's Year 3 and he still doesn't know how to read screens. It's Year 3 and he either doesn't care enough or doesn't understand where his cutting opportunities are.
Those things are more important than him exploring the difficult shots that you're talking about in an effort to let him be anything that he wants to be when he grows up. |
While I dont disagree with any of that and certainly expect him to improve in all of these areas. Lebron and CO sure are doing a disservice to him by force feeding him in those situations then dont you agree? Do you think that isnt discussed in the film room? Do you think for a moment that BI has an ego and or is entitled enough at this stage to demand a certain amount of looks a night while sitting next to lebron watching tape? I just cant buy into that theory. Not him or his personality or any of your young kids.
I tend to think the team and staff are trying to nurture a kid along who they think has it. That rollercoaster could stop but they see enough to want to keep going to the well for now.
_________________
*Paging Mike "Doo Doo" Brown to the front desk*
Thee Jason in LA |
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TheeLakeshow
Star Player
Joined: 08 Dec 2011
Posts: 1456
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| €H£M£$TR¥ wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | TheeLakeshow wrote: | We are so early in the process this year with all of the new weapons and yet we are all so glued to the analytical portion of how the team is performing. I think its super important, I am a numbers guy at heart. But I tend to think it really does a disservice to our current situation. And ill stand behind that in regard to every player on our roster.
Its too early IMO. I dont want to box in any of out young guys currently. I just dont. But maybe thats me being a bit loose in that regard. |
Is Year 3 too early to start "boxing" in? Year 4 is extension time. I know he looks like a fawn out there, but at some point the reality of who he is and the league he's in has to come into consideration. |
In regards to the timeline here... year 4. Consider it a blessing you wouldn’t need to max out BI if he under performs. We can get the Steph Curry discount for him to further development in the P&G while stacking the roster with role playing vets. Or, an exp contract in and of itself holds leverage in trade scenarios. Chill, and hope the best for his evolution. Regardless, BI is benefitting from Bron’s influence. There’s a seminar happening on the bench. It’s like interning at Google. You learn as you are assigned to deliver projects. |
Cant say I disagree here. You just hope that each game a little more data sticks upstairs.
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Thee Jason in LA |
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