| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Villain6Activated
Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 6697
|
 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | I don’t even call it bashing it’s straight up hatred and trollish, the guy is playing some elite D out there and you guys are expecting him to be a Kobe or a Kyrie next to LeBron, I’m more then happy with him playing the Tayshaun Prince or Pippen role.... I think most of you guys are big fantasy basketball guys that’s why unless BI scores a lot it is always considered a bad game. |
Equating Tayshaun or BI to an HOFer like Pippen is a joke.  |
It would be a joke if that's what he actually did.. He was talking about a role. |
Pippen's role on those Bulls teams was HUGE. What Tayshaun did for his teams wasn't even close. |
Pippen's final/peak role once he grew into the player he ended up as was HUGE.
Go check his role in his first four seasons next to Mike.
_________________
“Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Pippen's career TS% 53.6%
Ingram's TS% at 20 53.6%
Pippen didn't average 16 points in the NBA until he was 24
Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Ingram is far from a Pippen defensively... but unfinished, unformed Ingram's offensive numbers are not that far apart.
Ingram would have comparable assists if he didn't play with Ball, Rondo, and LBJ.
Again Pippen is superior at this point... but comparing Ingram to him isn't total insanity. Other than steals, which we already know... Ingram isn't ridiculously far off from his learning curve.
We don't know what Ingram will be... but it's not absurd like comparing him to Jordan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KBH
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LandsbergerRules wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | I don’t even call it bashing it’s straight up hatred and trollish, the guy is playing some elite D out there and you guys are expecting him to be a Kobe or a Kyrie next to LeBron, I’m more then happy with him playing the Tayshaun Prince or Pippen role.... I think most of you guys are big fantasy basketball guys that’s why unless BI scores a lot it is always considered a bad game. |
Equating Tayshaun or BI to an HOFer like Pippen is a joke. |
It would be a joke if that's what he actually did.. He was talking about a role. |
Pippen's role on those Bulls teams was HUGE. What Tayshaun did for his teams wasn't even close. |
Pippen has become one of the more criminally underrated players as time has passed imo. I mean, BI isn't even matching what Tayshaun did for those Pistons teams, but bringing Pippen up makes no sense. If we had someone who could approximate Pippen on this team, we'd be stifling defensively and solidly the second best team in the West. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
justsomelakerfan
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Posts: 10939
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Refused to trade him for PG13 |
I also can’t get the scenario out of my head that we end up trading him to a team who really coaches him out of bad habits and into some good ones... we might regret that just as much too.
_________________
Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Inspector Gadget
Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46861
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sentient Meat wrote: | Pippen's career TS% 53.6%
Ingram's TS% at 20 53.6%
Pippen didn't average 16 points in the NBA until he was 24
Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Ingram is far from a Pippen defensively... but unfinished, unformed Ingram's offensive numbers are not that far apart.
Ingram would have comparable assists if he didn't play with Ball, Rondo, and LBJ.
Again Pippen is superior at this point... but comparing Ingram to him isn't total insanity. Other than steals, which we already know... Ingram isn't ridiculously far off from his learning curve.
We don't know what Ingram will be... but it's not absurd like comparing him to Jordan. |
Good post  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Purp 32
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2014
Posts: 2154
Location: Inglewood, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Pippen is one the greatest 5 defensive players ever. So even if their offense is comparable, their impact isn't. Role-wise, the Lakers are trying to use BI in a similar way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I still think we passed on PG 13 and let him turn us down to save face.
If we sign KD or Kawhi, I'll even be more certain this was the case.
PG wanted to come here when we were garbage... hard to imagine he wouldn't want to be here when we were good. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| KBH wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | I don’t even call it bashing it’s straight up hatred and trollish, the guy is playing some elite D out there and you guys are expecting him to be a Kobe or a Kyrie next to LeBron, I’m more then happy with him playing the Tayshaun Prince or Pippen role.... I think most of you guys are big fantasy basketball guys that’s why unless BI scores a lot it is always considered a bad game. |
Equating Tayshaun or BI to an HOFer like Pippen is a joke. |
It would be a joke if that's what he actually did.. He was talking about a role. |
Pippen's role on those Bulls teams was HUGE. What Tayshaun did for his teams wasn't even close. |
Pippen has become one of the more criminally underrated players as time has passed imo. I mean, BI isn't even matching what Tayshaun did for those Pistons teams, but bringing Pippen up makes no sense. If we had someone who could approximate Pippen on this team, we'd be stifling defensively and solidly the second best team in the West. |
Are you guys intentionally not getting it??
He brought him up because he was speaking on roles.. Nothing more, he didn't put Ingram on Pippen's level. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Purp 32 wrote: | | Pippen is one the greatest 5 defensive players ever. So even if their offense is comparable, their impact isn't. Role-wise, the Lakers are trying to use BI in a similar way. |
That's all IG was saying really.. shrugs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Purp 32
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2014
Posts: 2154
Location: Inglewood, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | Purp 32 wrote: | | Pippen is one the greatest 5 defensive players ever. So even if their offense is comparable, their impact isn't. Role-wise, the Lakers are trying to use BI in a similar way. |
That's all IG was saying really.. shrugs. |
Yeah I know, I was trying to defend his point. I just don't think it's the best role for him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
€H£M£$TR¥
Star Player
Joined: 03 Apr 2017
Posts: 3785
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Man, part of me hopes BI is shown this forum, so it turns him into a more selfish evil version of himself. All the greats are a**holes. Mamba, MJ, King. I want the entire league to hate this kid.
Just like Dlo is feeding off the hate; making himself who he wants to be; BI would do well to feed off being labeled as a disappointing bust.
BI does not want and does not need to be KD. So eat it, all you folks trying to shoe horn him into a game that is not his own. I don’t want to be a Warriors clone. I want to see my team spike their jumpshots back into their grills. I want to see chase back blocks from behind, and I want a return to whistle to whistle intimidation.
This nice guy stuff is for the birds.
_________________
DEAR BASKETBALL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LandsbergerRules
Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 11197
Location: The Other Perspective
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: |
Are you guys intentionally not getting it??
He brought him up because he was speaking on roles.. Nothing more, he didn't put Ingram on Pippen's level. |
Pippen initiated the offense, was the 2nd leading scorer, and was counted on as a defensive stopper who could at times check guys MJ couldn't (like Magic). His role was like BI's, Zo's, and Kuz's put together.
_________________
"Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Purp 32 wrote: | | Pippen is one the greatest 5 defensive players ever. So even if their offense is comparable, their impact isn't. Role-wise, the Lakers are trying to use BI in a similar way. |
Ingram is many tiers below Pippen at this stage... However, if he becomes an efficient scorer... gains strength and becomes influential on the boards and defense... continues to improve his free throw shooting... all which are realistic goals...
Then, a comparison isn't out of line. Considering Ingram has four years to become a 20/6/5 player with stronger defense... I think he can become fairly close to that by that age. If he becomes a 25 point scorer... then his offense begins to offset Scottie's defensive prowess. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Purp 32 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Purp 32 wrote: | | Pippen is one the greatest 5 defensive players ever. So even if their offense is comparable, their impact isn't. Role-wise, the Lakers are trying to use BI in a similar way. |
That's all IG was saying really.. shrugs. |
Yeah I know, I was trying to defend his point. I just don't think it's the best role for him. |
He seems to thrive as a playmaker on the move.. What role would you rather him play? I don't like him trying to play like a scorer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated
Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 6697
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | You're confusing role, and effectiveness at that role. Of course Pippen's effect and production was huge in that role. |
If you check out Pippen's third season next to Lebron, ignoring the fact that he has 2 years in age on him or 3 years next to Mike vs. BI's first next to Lebron, I don't think the gap is HUGE if BI can be used to his strengths.
He averaged 16.5/6.7/5.4 on 49/25/67 with 14 shot attempts, 38 minutes and 22% usage.
Brandon Ingram is sitting at 15.4/4.5/2.5 on 45/32/72 with 13 shot attempts, 30 minutes and 22% usage.
From my rookie analysis, the problem with BI is that he's expected to be way too much of a scorer. Pippen had 8 more minutes per game yet they took the same amount of shots pretty much. He was used as a point forward, rather then a scorer and averaged 5.4 assists. It's weird cause that role is LITERALLY to Ingram's strength (compared to his talents as a scorer).
So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so
_________________
“Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerSD
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23804
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| His 4th quarter is what he needs to build upon. He helped LBJ close the game, which this team desperately needs. He didn’t force it, just executed within flow and also hit the big shot before shot clock went off. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Purp 32
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2014
Posts: 2154
Location: Inglewood, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | Purp 32 wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Purp 32 wrote: | | Pippen is one the greatest 5 defensive players ever. So even if their offense is comparable, their impact isn't. Role-wise, the Lakers are trying to use BI in a similar way. |
That's all IG was saying really.. shrugs. |
Yeah I know, I was trying to defend his point. I just don't think it's the best role for him. |
He seems to thrive as a playmaker on the move.. What role would you rather him play? I don't like him trying to play like a scorer. |
Remember how he played at Duke during the second half of the season? I think stretch 4 is where he's best at for his skill set. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Capt.Skyhook
Star Player
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 3991
Location: Louisville, Ky.
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BI is trying to fill a role he's not equipped for. He's not ready to be the second offensive option on a good team every night. He has to work way too hard to score off his iso plays. It's a constant struggle. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Inspector Gadget
Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46861
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Capt.Skyhook wrote: | | BI is trying to fill a role he's not equipped for. He's not ready to be the second offensive option on a good team every night. He has to work way too hard to score off his iso plays. It's a constant struggle. |
I think BI is trying to still adjust to being the #2 guy you can see it when he sometimes looks upon himself to get going when LeBron is on the bench he can still be that #2 guy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KindCrippler2000
Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerSD wrote: | | His 4th quarter is what he needs to build upon. He helped LBJ close the game, which this team desperately needs. He didn’t force it, just executed within flow and also hit the big shot before shot clock went off. |
That's my #1 issue with him at the moment. He's making the mistake of diagramming his moves/drives and not reading defensive placements / the way they are guarding him. Along with the sequences in the fourth of this game, he had a nice spin move last game that needs to be a regular part of his arsenal when smaller guys overplay him. No reason he can't do it, aside from the nerves/expectations he has at the moment. It will take time. Young players tend to be like that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sentient Meat wrote: | Pippen's career TS% 53.6%
Ingram's TS% at 20 53.6%
Pippen didn't average 16 points in the NBA until he was 24
Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Ingram is far from a Pippen defensively... but unfinished, unformed Ingram's offensive numbers are not that far apart.
Ingram would have comparable assists if he didn't play with Ball, Rondo, and LBJ.
Again Pippen is superior at this point... but comparing Ingram to him isn't total insanity. Other than steals, which we already know... Ingram isn't ridiculously far off from his learning curve.
We don't know what Ingram will be... but it's not absurd like comparing him to Jordan. |
Pretty sure league average TS% during Pippen's time was different...
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | Pippen's career TS% 53.6%
Ingram's TS% at 20 53.6%
Pippen didn't average 16 points in the NBA until he was 24
Ingram averaged 16 at 20.
Ingram is far from a Pippen defensively... but unfinished, unformed Ingram's offensive numbers are not that far apart.
Ingram would have comparable assists if he didn't play with Ball, Rondo, and LBJ.
Again Pippen is superior at this point... but comparing Ingram to him isn't total insanity. Other than steals, which we already know... Ingram isn't ridiculously far off from his learning curve.
We don't know what Ingram will be... but it's not absurd like comparing him to Jordan. |
Pretty sure league average TS% during Pippen's time was different... |
We already established it was 2% lower in 2003... but no one's contending that 53.6% is good enough.
It was in response to people saying a comparison was ludicrous.
I think BI needs to be above 55% to be considered good... close to 60% to be great.
Long way before he gets there... but I'm rooting for him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^I get that the context is within the static numbers. It gives a frame of reference and some perspective on where BI actually is offensively.
I'm not even bothered by the shooting really. I'm bothered by the *how* he generates the points.
I root for the kid, but offensively, he does a mix of low IQ and high IQ stuff out there, and it's rarely consistent. The only time it is consistent, is when he's playing PG.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KBH
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | I don’t even call it bashing it’s straight up hatred and trollish, the guy is playing some elite D out there and you guys are expecting him to be a Kobe or a Kyrie next to LeBron, I’m more then happy with him playing the Tayshaun Prince or Pippen role.... I think most of you guys are big fantasy basketball guys that’s why unless BI scores a lot it is always considered a bad game. |
Equating Tayshaun or BI to an HOFer like Pippen is a joke. |
It would be a joke if that's what he actually did.. He was talking about a role. |
Pippen's role on those Bulls teams was HUGE. What Tayshaun did for his teams wasn't even close. |
Pippen has become one of the more criminally underrated players as time has passed imo. I mean, BI isn't even matching what Tayshaun did for those Pistons teams, but bringing Pippen up makes no sense. If we had someone who could approximate Pippen on this team, we'd be stifling defensively and solidly the second best team in the West. |
Are you guys intentionally not getting it??
He brought him up because he was speaking on roles.. Nothing more, he didn't put Ingram on Pippen's level. |
But Ingram isn't fulfilling the Pippen role in anyway comparable to Pippen, so mentioning his name as a comparison is pointless. He's fulfilling the Pippen "role" by doing everything worse than Pippen. Oh, cool, I guess. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ziggy
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12736
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Capt.Skyhook wrote: | | BI is trying to fill a role he's not equipped for. He's not ready to be the second offensive option on a good team every night. He has to work way too hard to score off his iso plays. It's a constant struggle. |
Agreed. Even when he is determined to get his, he becomes a huge ball stopper. Some possessions he's the only guy who touches the ball.
I don't get the Pippen comparison either, even if we're just talking about roles. Pippen was the guy running the offense as a point-forward for the Bulls, not MJ. I just don't see the guard skills in BI. Even though I know Luke tries to play him at PG at times, he only puts him in that role to keep him engaged as a threat, not because he's shown he can run an offense. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
