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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^I get that the context is within the static numbers. It gives a frame of reference and some perspective on where BI actually is offensively.

I'm not even bothered by the shooting really. I'm bothered by the *how* he generates the points.

I root for the kid, but offensively, he does a mix of low IQ and high IQ stuff out there, and it's rarely consistent. The only time it is consistent, is when he's playing PG.


I look at it as he's being a good soldier being forced to play on the perimeter while LBJ, Kuzma, and McGee take most of the shots at the rim.

Last season he shot 37% of shots at the rim with a 67% efficiency.

This season he's shot 29% of his shots at the rim... with the majority of the 8% distribution going to the less efficient midrange.

He isn't comfortable at the three... so he's taken a lot of shots from midrange where he's doing okay for 1998 as many have said but not efficient in 2018.

However, I'd rather him gain his confidence making some midrange than shooting 25% from 3. Hopefully he's shooting a thousand shots a day in practice and getting that muscle memory from the corner spot.

He's had 1 turnover in 3 games since his 6 turnover fiasco... that's an incredible mark for a tall player who's become one of the primary distributors while Rondo is healing.

I think it's a matter of time before the midrange shots fall with more regularity... he's improved his free throw shooting... and then hopefully the three.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject:

1ngr4m wrote:
All I'm saying is if you look at the users that bash Ingram here after bad games, then go look at the guys that support Lonzo to death when he has bad games... you'll see some things lol.


Can't prove there is causation, but there is extreme correlation.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^I get that the context is within the static numbers. It gives a frame of reference and some perspective on where BI actually is offensively.

I'm not even bothered by the shooting really. I'm bothered by the *how* he generates the points.

I root for the kid, but offensively, he does a mix of low IQ and high IQ stuff out there, and it's rarely consistent. The only time it is consistent, is when he's playing PG.


I look at it as he's being a good soldier being forced to play on the perimeter while LBJ, Kuzma, and McGee take most of the shots at the rim.

Last season he shot 37% of shots at the rim with a 67% efficiency.

This season he's shot 29% of his shots at the rim... with the majority of the 8% distribution going to the less efficient midrange.

He isn't comfortable at the three... so he's taken a lot of shots from midrange where he's doing okay for 1998 as many have said but not efficient in 2018.

However, I'd rather him gain his confidence making some midrange than shooting 25% from 3. Hopefully he's shooting a thousand shots a day in practice and getting that muscle memory from the corner spot.

He's had 1 turnover in 3 games since his 6 turnover fiasco... that's an incredible mark for a tall player who's become one of the primary distributors while Rondo is healing.

I think it's a matter of time before the midrange shots fall with more regularity... he's improved his free throw shooting... and then hopefully the three.


Everyone is focusing on the shot distances as opposed to shot quality.

That's what I hate about the argument. The general response is, "shoot more 3s" when, if it's a bad shot, it's just a bad shot.

I'd rather he take open 3s, fade to the corners instead of going into the post, utilize triple threat play more, and opt for drive/kick scenarios instead.

He does this SO MUCH better when he's playing point guard, and it's not really a matter of "playing the perimeter more." He's willfully taking poor shots and passing up good ones.

Sure, it doesn't help with Brook Lopez is in the game and sure, hit a couple mids to get yourself going *when they're good shots*. But, when he takes contested post shots on turnarounds? Delayed releases on contests?

That's awful. This is purely a shot selection/decision-making issue, rather than shot accuracy/distance issue.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
1ngr4m wrote:
All I'm saying is if you look at the users that bash Ingram here after bad games, then go look at the guys that support Lonzo to death when he has bad games... you'll see some things lol.


Can't prove there is causation, but there is extreme correlation.

I'll bite. Even if this trend, which is a passive aggressive accusation against a group of posters, is real, is it really that hard to see why posters who generally want to see the Lakers' young core succeed have less patience with a guy in his 3rd year with a very long leash dribbling 15 times and throwing up contested mid-rangers, as opposed to a guy in his second year who's always trying to push the pace and get others involved and has a very short leash?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
adkindo wrote:
1ngr4m wrote:
All I'm saying is if you look at the users that bash Ingram here after bad games, then go look at the guys that support Lonzo to death when he has bad games... you'll see some things lol.


Can't prove there is causation, but there is extreme correlation.

I'll bite. Even if this trend, which is a passive aggressive accusation against a group of posters, is real, is it really that hard to see why posters who generally want to see the Lakers' young core succeed have less patience with a guy in his 3rd year with a very long leash dribbling 15 times and throwing up contested mid-rangers, as opposed to a guy in his second year who's always trying to push the pace and get others involved and has a very short leash?


If I squint real hard, I can see the similarity between Oladipo's 3rd year and Ingram's 3rd year.

The problem is, we don't want to miss it when it all clicks. It took Dipo 5 years.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
adkindo wrote:
1ngr4m wrote:
All I'm saying is if you look at the users that bash Ingram here after bad games, then go look at the guys that support Lonzo to death when he has bad games... you'll see some things lol.


Can't prove there is causation, but there is extreme correlation.

I'll bite. Even if this trend, which is a passive aggressive accusation against a group of posters, is real, is it really that hard to see why posters who generally want to see the Lakers' young core succeed have less patience with a guy in his 3rd year with a very long leash dribbling 15 times and throwing up contested mid-rangers, as opposed to a guy in his second year who's always trying to push the pace and get others involved and has a very short leash?

Lakers politics is pretty complex lol
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject:

1ngr4m wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
You're confusing role, and effectiveness at that role. Of course Pippen's effect and production was huge in that role.


If you check out Pippen's third season next to Lebron, ignoring the fact that he has 2 years in age on him or 3 years next to Mike vs. BI's first next to Lebron, I don't think the gap is HUGE if BI can be used to his strengths.

He averaged 16.5/6.7/5.4 on 49/25/67 with 14 shot attempts, 38 minutes and 22% usage.

Brandon Ingram is sitting at 15.4/4.5/2.5 on 45/32/72 with 13 shot attempts, 30 minutes and 22% usage.

From my rookie analysis, the problem with BI is that he's expected to be way too much of a scorer. Pippen had 8 more minutes per game yet they took the same amount of shots pretty much. He was used as a point forward, rather then a scorer and averaged 5.4 assists. It's weird cause that role is LITERALLY to Ingram's strength (compared to his talents as a scorer).

So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so


I do, unfortunately they need him to be that guy. He's not quite there though. His game just isn't as refined as it needs to be. My only concern is I don't believe our staff knows hot to develop him.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so


No. He's having trouble against 2nd tier defenders in Iso already. Imagine 1st tier.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
levon wrote:
adkindo wrote:
1ngr4m wrote:
All I'm saying is if you look at the users that bash Ingram here after bad games, then go look at the guys that support Lonzo to death when he has bad games... you'll see some things lol.


Can't prove there is causation, but there is extreme correlation.

I'll bite. Even if this trend, which is a passive aggressive accusation against a group of posters, is real, is it really that hard to see why posters who generally want to see the Lakers' young core succeed have less patience with a guy in his 3rd year with a very long leash dribbling 15 times and throwing up contested mid-rangers, as opposed to a guy in his second year who's always trying to push the pace and get others involved and has a very short leash?


If I squint real hard, I can see the similarity between Oladipo's 3rd year and Ingram's 3rd year.

The problem is, we don't want to miss it when it all clicks. It took Dipo 5 years.


Myles Turner reminds me a lot of BI but he looks way worse then BI right now and doesn’t have the excuse or reason of adjusting to a new team, the Pacers team is the same as the Pacers team last year and he doesn’t look like a star yet.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so


No. He's having trouble against 2nd tier defenders in Iso already. Imagine 1st tier.


Key word you used was in Iso.. he scores at an efficient rate when given the rock on the move.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:25 pm    Post subject:

trablos wrote:
Lakers politics is pretty complex lol

It can be really simple if posters offer generally reasonable takes about player performance without resorting to building up factions or otherwise engaging in demagoguery that has nothing to do with what's happening on the hardwood.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so


No. He's having trouble against 2nd tier defenders in Iso already. Imagine 1st tier.


Key word you used was in Iso.. he scores at an efficient rate when given the rock on the move.


He's had those opportunities too. But keeps opting for poor shots. That's not even a 1st/2nd option thing. BI has been getting 1st option touches with clear outs in Iso.

It's not working.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^I get that the context is within the static numbers. It gives a frame of reference and some perspective on where BI actually is offensively.

I'm not even bothered by the shooting really. I'm bothered by the *how* he generates the points.

I root for the kid, but offensively, he does a mix of low IQ and high IQ stuff out there, and it's rarely consistent. The only time it is consistent, is when he's playing PG.


I look at it as he's being a good soldier being forced to play on the perimeter while LBJ, Kuzma, and McGee take most of the shots at the rim.

Last season he shot 37% of shots at the rim with a 67% efficiency.

This season he's shot 29% of his shots at the rim... with the majority of the 8% distribution going to the less efficient midrange.

He isn't comfortable at the three... so he's taken a lot of shots from midrange where he's doing okay for 1998 as many have said but not efficient in 2018.

However, I'd rather him gain his confidence making some midrange than shooting 25% from 3. Hopefully he's shooting a thousand shots a day in practice and getting that muscle memory from the corner spot.

He's had 1 turnover in 3 games since his 6 turnover fiasco... that's an incredible mark for a tall player who's become one of the primary distributors while Rondo is healing.

I think it's a matter of time before the midrange shots fall with more regularity... he's improved his free throw shooting... and then hopefully the three.


Everyone is focusing on the shot distances as opposed to shot quality.

That's what I hate about the argument. The general response is, "shoot more 3s" when, if it's a bad shot, it's just a bad shot.

I'd rather he take open 3s, fade to the corners instead of going into the post, utilize triple threat play more, and opt for drive/kick scenarios instead.

He does this SO MUCH better when he's playing point guard, and it's not really a matter of "playing the perimeter more." He's willfully taking poor shots and passing up good ones.

Sure, it doesn't help with Brook Lopez is in the game and sure, hit a couple mids to get yourself going *when they're good shots*. But, when he takes contested post shots on turnarounds? Delayed releases on contests?

That's awful. This is purely a shot selection/decision-making issue, rather than shot accuracy/distance issue.


I'm just assuming that he makes the midrange with regularity in scrimmages and doesn't feel as comfortable with the three. He passes the open three up for the same reason that Zo does... doesn't want to look bad.

Last season Brook was playing a stretch five, so a lot of passes that are now going to McGee and Kuzma were going to Brandon making his TS% more efficient. If he played with Brook... I think he'd be getting more like 35% of his shots at the rim... then that extra make he'd get every game would make his stats look decent. When you make the extra shot or two at the rim... then you can shoot with abandon from outside... knowing the inside game will insulate your FG% from distance.

I saw a lot of shots tonight as mistakes that will be fixed with experience... which players you can challenge inside... who you can't. I think that's where veterans mostly improve with time... not the stroke itself... but the variables created by each defender. As long as Ingram learns, he should get better.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
levon wrote:
adkindo wrote:
1ngr4m wrote:
All I'm saying is if you look at the users that bash Ingram here after bad games, then go look at the guys that support Lonzo to death when he has bad games... you'll see some things lol.


Can't prove there is causation, but there is extreme correlation.

I'll bite. Even if this trend, which is a passive aggressive accusation against a group of posters, is real, is it really that hard to see why posters who generally want to see the Lakers' young core succeed have less patience with a guy in his 3rd year with a very long leash dribbling 15 times and throwing up contested mid-rangers, as opposed to a guy in his second year who's always trying to push the pace and get others involved and has a very short leash?


If I squint real hard, I can see the similarity between Oladipo's 3rd year and Ingram's 3rd year.

The problem is, we don't want to miss it when it all clicks. It took Dipo 5 years.


Myles Turner reminds me a lot of BI but he looks way worse then BI right now and doesn’t have the excuse or reason of adjusting to a new team, the Pacers team is the same as the Pacers team last year and he doesn’t look like a star yet.


Myles Turner entered the league with a gait issue that probably affects his back, and arguably doesn't have the same work ethic as Brandon Ingram?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so


No. He's having trouble against 2nd tier defenders in Iso already. Imagine 1st tier.


I agree he doesn't have much of a move and relies purely on his length.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so


No. He's having trouble against 2nd tier defenders in Iso already. Imagine 1st tier.


Thus far this season but I have faith he’ll get up more when he plays against the elite defenders.

Like last season when he dropped 32 on KD and the Warriors or when he dropped 20 something on Paul George and the thunder.

Fortunately his mental lapses playing inferior competition could be due to his youth. I still believe in BI but sadly if he doesn’t keep improving he might be traded. He’ll keep growing imo
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject:

Purp 32 wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Purp 32 wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Purp 32 wrote:
Pippen is one the greatest 5 defensive players ever. So even if their offense is comparable, their impact isn't. Role-wise, the Lakers are trying to use BI in a similar way.


That's all IG was saying really.. shrugs.


Yeah I know, I was trying to defend his point. I just don't think it's the best role for him.


He seems to thrive as a playmaker on the move.. What role would you rather him play? I don't like him trying to play like a scorer.


Remember how he played at Duke during the second half of the season? I think stretch 4 is where he's best at for his skill set.


He's barely strong enough to handle 2's.. I don't think he'll ever be a viable option at the 4. I could be wrong though.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
but the variables created by each defender. As long as Ingram learns, he should get better.


That goes for the entire youthcore.

The guy that adapted shooting the fastest was Josh Hart. Straight after his draft. Straight after his rookie year. It clicked.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
levon wrote:
adkindo wrote:
1ngr4m wrote:
All I'm saying is if you look at the users that bash Ingram here after bad games, then go look at the guys that support Lonzo to death when he has bad games... you'll see some things lol.


Can't prove there is causation, but there is extreme correlation.

I'll bite. Even if this trend, which is a passive aggressive accusation against a group of posters, is real, is it really that hard to see why posters who generally want to see the Lakers' young core succeed have less patience with a guy in his 3rd year with a very long leash dribbling 15 times and throwing up contested mid-rangers, as opposed to a guy in his second year who's always trying to push the pace and get others involved and has a very short leash?


If I squint real hard, I can see the similarity between Oladipo's 3rd year and Ingram's 3rd year.

The problem is, we don't want to miss it when it all clicks. It took Dipo 5 years.


Myles Turner reminds me a lot of BI but he looks way worse then BI right now and doesn’t have the excuse or reason of adjusting to a new team, the Pacers team is the same as the Pacers team last year and he doesn’t look like a star yet.


Myles Turner entered the league with a gait issue that probably affects his back, and arguably doesn't have the same work ethic as Brandon Ingram?


I saw some of Turner’s workout videos and he was working out with a top notch trainer, interesting you question his work ethic..
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so


No. He's having trouble against 2nd tier defenders in Iso already. Imagine 1st tier.


Key word you used was in Iso.. he scores at an efficient rate when given the rock on the move.


He's had those opportunities too. But keeps opting for poor shots. That's not even a 1st/2nd option thing. BI has been getting 1st option touches with clear outs in Iso.

It's not working.


Those are valid points, we all acknowledge that the iso thing doesn't work. What we're saying is that when he's playing the role of a facilitator, which he did last season at the 1, his FG% was pretty good.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject:

His midrange game is starting to look really smooth. It's starting to look like he feels he can score whenever he wants. I think we'd be fools to think this guy doesn't have all star written all over him in 2-3 years.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
So if everything wasn't so hell bent on Ingram being a second option, do you guys think his FG% rebounds and assists would go up? I think so


No. He's having trouble against 2nd tier defenders in Iso already. Imagine 1st tier.


Key word you used was in Iso.. he scores at an efficient rate when given the rock on the move.


He's had those opportunities too. But keeps opting for poor shots. That's not even a 1st/2nd option thing. BI has been getting 1st option touches with clear outs in Iso.

It's not working.


Those are valid points, we all acknowledge that the iso thing doesn't work. What we're saying is that when he's playing the role of a facilitator, which he did last season at the 1, his FG% was pretty good.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
but the variables created by each defender. As long as Ingram learns, he should get better.


That goes for the entire youthcore.

The guy that adapted shooting the fastest was Josh Hart. Straight after his draft. Straight after his rookie year. It clicked.


Also a function of being a 22 year old NCAA champion with a fully grown man's body. Credit to Hart as you say... but a huge advantage knowing who you are and will most likely finally be.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
adkindo wrote:
1ngr4m wrote:
All I'm saying is if you look at the users that bash Ingram here after bad games, then go look at the guys that support Lonzo to death when he has bad games... you'll see some things lol.


Can't prove there is causation, but there is extreme correlation.

I'll bite. Even if this trend, which is a passive aggressive accusation against a group of posters, is real, is it really that hard to see why posters who generally want to see the Lakers' young core succeed have less patience with a guy in his 3rd year with a very long leash dribbling 15 times and throwing up contested mid-rangers, as opposed to a guy in his second year who's always trying to push the pace and get others involved and has a very short leash?


it is not passive aggressive....I do not know what causes action for every individual, but many of the same posters that go to the end of the earth to defend any criticism of Lonzo, focus on every weakness they can find about Ingram.

You are making a case for a very different argument.....that we as fans should expect more from Ingram than we do Lonzo.....and that is an argument that I agree with 100%. At the same time even though Ingram has been mostly mediocre this season, he has been far better than Lonzo. There are some that criticize both and praise both, but there are others that appear to seek to pull Ingram down while serving as a firewall against any criticism of Ball.

Neither have played as I hoped this season....Lonzo as a 2nd year and Ingram as a 3rd year. I have a preference for Ingram, but I am not trying to use smoke and mirrors to push a narrative that he is playing well, nor am I diving into the Lonzo thread after one of his least effective games. In my opinion, Ingrams game is picked apart....every shot, every pass, etc. with only 1 or 2 posters regularly pushing back in his defense.....but scroll through Balls thread over the last 24 hours. Yes there are a couple pointless "he sucks" type comments, but there are numerous/many defending extremely poor play on both sides of the ball recently.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:32 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I saw some of Turner’s workout videos and he was working out with a top notch trainer, interesting you question his work ethic..


And yet his individual output has totally flatlined. His role didn't change. He was supposed to step up last year, and didn't.

Brandon did already, and that was just his 2nd year. Myles Turner has been flatlining/getting worse since. He's now in year 4.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/turnemy01.html

So sure, I question the work ethic.
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