OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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Villain6Activated
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject:

I can't help but read GT's posts in his voice at this point lol
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject:

1ngr4m wrote:
I can't help but read GT's posts in his voice at this point lol


Whaaaaaaat's up Laker fans.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Yellow wrote:
ESPN's Real Plus-Minus came out today.

Ingram's real plus-minus is currently -3.08. For reference sake, among 83 small forwards, Ingram is ranked 78 of 83. He's ahead of Jonathan Simmons, Kevin Knox, Mario Hezonja, Cedi Osman, and Josh Jackson.

Among SGs, Ingram would rank 94 of 99.

FWIW, Kuzma is ranked as the 87th PF out of 91. He has a score of -2.55. He's ahead of three rookies and Jabari Parker.


That’s really bad . Offensively he has a lot of work to do. His dprm is not matching my eye test though except Ingram has trouble with screens.


Last night was a great example of his issues defensively at the 2. He gets wiped out by even the slightest contact on screens, and then has to scramble and hope his length is enough to get back into the play. To his credit, I think he does try hard.


He's improved defensively, but it's become overstated by his most enthusiastic supporters because it's the most defensible part of his game.

I haven't checked after yesterday's game, but he was in the 39th percentile overall in terms of PPP allowed on defense, and in the 6th (!) percentile at defending guys coming off of screens, where he's flat-out brutal. Here's a small sample.



I think most people are able to see that. Ouch.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject:

1ngr4m wrote:
I can't help but read GT's posts in his voice at this point lol


I type them in my voice.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Yellow wrote:
ESPN's Real Plus-Minus came out today.

Ingram's real plus-minus is currently -3.08. For reference sake, among 83 small forwards, Ingram is ranked 78 of 83. He's ahead of Jonathan Simmons, Kevin Knox, Mario Hezonja, Cedi Osman, and Josh Jackson.

Among SGs, Ingram would rank 94 of 99.

FWIW, Kuzma is ranked as the 87th PF out of 91. He has a score of -2.55. He's ahead of three rookies and Jabari Parker.


That’s really bad . Offensively he has a lot of work to do. His dprm is not matching my eye test though except Ingram has trouble with screens.


Last night was a great example of his issues defensively at the 2. He gets wiped out by even the slightest contact on screens, and then has to scramble and hope his length is enough to get back into the play. To his credit, I think he does try hard.


He's improved defensively, but it's become overstated by his most enthusiastic supporters because it's the most defensible part of his game.

I haven't checked after yesterday's game, but he was in the 39th percentile overall in terms of PPP allowed on defense, and in the 6th (!) percentile at defending guys coming off of screens, where he's flat-out brutal. Here's a small sample.



I think most people are able to see that. Ouch.


It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Yellow wrote:
ESPN's Real Plus-Minus came out today.

Ingram's real plus-minus is currently -3.08. For reference sake, among 83 small forwards, Ingram is ranked 78 of 83. He's ahead of Jonathan Simmons, Kevin Knox, Mario Hezonja, Cedi Osman, and Josh Jackson.

Among SGs, Ingram would rank 94 of 99.

FWIW, Kuzma is ranked as the 87th PF out of 91. He has a score of -2.55. He's ahead of three rookies and Jabari Parker.


That’s really bad . Offensively he has a lot of work to do. His dprm is not matching my eye test though except Ingram has trouble with screens.


Last night was a great example of his issues defensively at the 2. He gets wiped out by even the slightest contact on screens, and then has to scramble and hope his length is enough to get back into the play. To his credit, I think he does try hard.


He's improved defensively, but it's become overstated by his most enthusiastic supporters because it's the most defensible part of his game.

I haven't checked after yesterday's game, but he was in the 39th percentile overall in terms of PPP allowed on defense, and in the 6th (!) percentile at defending guys coming off of screens, where he's flat-out brutal. Here's a small sample.



You can tell just by looking at him that he isn't cut out to play the 2. Hope this experiment ends soon. It's obvious Luke's only doing it because he doesn't want to send Ingram or Kuz to the bench, not because he really thinks Ingram is a 2 guard.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject:

mookielala wrote:
It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.


He's certainly made strides in other areas of his defensive game, but the game is so screen-heavy (especially at the 2, on both ends) that it's a difficult deficit to overcome. He's got a crazy high center of gravity due to his long legs, which combine with his thin frame to where screens impact him more than most guys. He can't do much about that, although he has some technique issues around screens that contribute that as well. He has to become GREAT at the technique stuff because of the physical factors working against him in this respect.

He's demonstrating why he's not a 2 on both ends of the floor, but if LeBron wants to play the 3 for most of the game and no one seems interested in playing him at the 4 very much, it's a complicated situation.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:24 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.


He's certainly made strides in other areas of his defensive game, but the game is so screen-heavy (especially at the 2, on both ends) that it's a difficult deficit to overcome. He's got a crazy high center of gravity due to his long legs, which combine with his thin frame to where screens impact him more than most guys. He can't do much about that, although he has some technique issues around screens that contribute that as well. He has to become GREAT at the technique stuff because of the physical factors working against him in this respect.

He's demonstrating why he's not a 2 on both ends of the floor, but if LeBron wants to play the 3 for most of the game and no one seems interested in playing him at the 4 very much, it's a complicated situation.


Not complicated, start Hart, stagger BI with LeBron... unless we showcasing ala Nance again
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.


He's certainly made strides in other areas of his defensive game, but the game is so screen-heavy (especially at the 2, on both ends) that it's a difficult deficit to overcome. He's got a crazy high center of gravity due to his long legs, which combine with his thin frame to where screens impact him more than most guys. He can't do much about that, although he has some technique issues around screens that contribute that as well. He has to become GREAT at the technique stuff because of the physical factors working against him in this respect.

He's demonstrating why he's not a 2 on both ends of the floor, but if LeBron wants to play the 3 for most of the game and no one seems interested in playing him at the 4 very much, it's a complicated situation.


Honestly if Lebron really is 100% about not playing the four then I think the complicated solution ends up being an Ingram trade.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
1ngr4m wrote:
I can't help but read GT's posts in his voice at this point lol


I type them in my voice.


what a kobe 2.0 esqe response.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.


He's certainly made strides in other areas of his defensive game, but the game is so screen-heavy (especially at the 2, on both ends) that it's a difficult deficit to overcome. He's got a crazy high center of gravity due to his long legs, which combine with his thin frame to where screens impact him more than most guys. He can't do much about that, although he has some technique issues around screens that contribute that as well. He has to become GREAT at the technique stuff because of the physical factors working against him in this respect.

He's demonstrating why he's not a 2 on both ends of the floor, but if LeBron wants to play the 3 for most of the game and no one seems interested in playing him at the 4 very much, it's a complicated situation.


its not all that complicated of your coach had the stones to bring him off the bench. ingram seems like the perfect plug and play bench guy to lead a second unit.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.


He's certainly made strides in other areas of his defensive game, but the game is so screen-heavy (especially at the 2, on both ends) that it's a difficult deficit to overcome. He's got a crazy high center of gravity due to his long legs, which combine with his thin frame to where screens impact him more than most guys. He can't do much about that, although he has some technique issues around screens that contribute that as well. He has to become GREAT at the technique stuff because of the physical factors working against him in this respect.

He's demonstrating why he's not a 2 on both ends of the floor, but if LeBron wants to play the 3 for most of the game and no one seems interested in playing him at the 4 very much, it's a complicated situation.


Hart can play the 4 and he can guard most starting 4 and he’s willing to bang too.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.


He's certainly made strides in other areas of his defensive game, but the game is so screen-heavy (especially at the 2, on both ends) that it's a difficult deficit to overcome. He's got a crazy high center of gravity due to his long legs, which combine with his thin frame to where screens impact him more than most guys. He can't do much about that, although he has some technique issues around screens that contribute that as well. He has to become GREAT at the technique stuff because of the physical factors working against him in this respect.

He's demonstrating why he's not a 2 on both ends of the floor, but if LeBron wants to play the 3 for most of the game and no one seems interested in playing him at the 4 very much, it's a complicated situation.


You dissect this stuff for a living, but to me it seems like it's become the #1 point of attack by teams. Earlier in the season I thought it was getting Kuzma on a switch.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject:

I'm curious how well other 6'9 players fare chasing 6'3 guards around screens as their primary assignment? Are there any others around the league that have even been put in that position?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject:

hydrohead wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.


He's certainly made strides in other areas of his defensive game, but the game is so screen-heavy (especially at the 2, on both ends) that it's a difficult deficit to overcome. He's got a crazy high center of gravity due to his long legs, which combine with his thin frame to where screens impact him more than most guys. He can't do much about that, although he has some technique issues around screens that contribute that as well. He has to become GREAT at the technique stuff because of the physical factors working against him in this respect.

He's demonstrating why he's not a 2 on both ends of the floor, but if LeBron wants to play the 3 for most of the game and no one seems interested in playing him at the 4 very much, it's a complicated situation.


its not all that complicated of your coach had the stones to bring him off the bench. ingram seems like the perfect plug and play bench guy to lead a second unit.


Yea it’s really not that complicated. Ingram shouldn’t have ever gone back in the starting lineup after his suspension. Could’ve brought him off the bench and not make it seem like he’s being benched with the “chemistry” argument. That’s Luke’s biggest mistake of the year.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject:

Maybe it is political like you guys say.
If Magic calls him untouchable and then they bench him, it makes him look bad?

Or maybe they really believe in BI and think he'll improve as the season rolls along like he has the last 2 years?

Or somewhere in between.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Maybe it is political like you guys say.
If Magic calls him untouchable and then they bench him, it makes him look bad?

Or maybe they really believe in BI and think he'll improve as the season rolls along like he has the last 2 years?

Or somewhere in between.


Yea there’s no accountability as far as playing time for some players and others are on a short leash. Tough to tell if they’re showcasing guys, if Magic is forcing Luke’s hand or if Luke is inept.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
It really sticks out to me too. He gets brushed off on so many plays. That's his most glaring weakness, IMO.


He's certainly made strides in other areas of his defensive game, but the game is so screen-heavy (especially at the 2, on both ends) that it's a difficult deficit to overcome. He's got a crazy high center of gravity due to his long legs, which combine with his thin frame to where screens impact him more than most guys. He can't do much about that, although he has some technique issues around screens that contribute that as well. He has to become GREAT at the technique stuff because of the physical factors working against him in this respect.

He's demonstrating why he's not a 2 on both ends of the floor, but if LeBron wants to play the 3 for most of the game and no one seems interested in playing him at the 4 very much, it's a complicated situation.


Pete, now that you've seen practices up close with the players and coaches, curious what you think about the organization's player development programs. Do you think the young players are being left behind in that department?

I really feel like the staff is underwhelming, and I'd hate to see our young players explode on another team with better guidance. Or maybe I'm just off in my assessment from a distance.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject:

awntawn wrote:
I'm curious how well other 6'9 players fare chasing 6'3 guards around screens as their primary assignment? Are there any others around the league that have even been put in that position?


Exactly. It's not intended as a criticism of Ingram, it's a criticism of the coaching staff. Honestly a lot of my criticisms of Ingram are really criticisms of the coaching staff and organization. There's a good player in there, but it's a different type of player than how they've "raised" him. They've always wanted him to be something that he isn't, and we're seeing the rotten fruits of that.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject:

And if we get kawhi this summer, won’t Lebron be playing the 4 anyway, or is kawhi playing out of position at the 2?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
CRoost wrote:
Yellow wrote:
ESPN's Real Plus-Minus came out today.

Ingram's real plus-minus is currently -3.08. For reference sake, among 83 small forwards, Ingram is ranked 78 of 83. He's ahead of Jonathan Simmons, Kevin Knox, Mario Hezonja, Cedi Osman, and Josh Jackson.

Among SGs, Ingram would rank 94 of 99.

FWIW, Kuzma is ranked as the 87th PF out of 91. He has a score of -2.55. He's ahead of three rookies and Jabari Parker.


That’s really bad . Offensively he has a lot of work to do. His dprm is not matching my eye test though except Ingram has trouble with screens.


Last night was a great example of his issues defensively at the 2. He gets wiped out by even the slightest contact on screens, and then has to scramble and hope his length is enough to get back into the play. To his credit, I think he does try hard.


He's improved defensively, but it's become overstated by his most enthusiastic supporters because it's the most defensible part of his game.

I haven't checked after yesterday's game, but he was in the 39th percentile overall in terms of PPP allowed on defense, and in the 6th (!) percentile at defending guys coming off of screens, where he's flat-out brutal. Here's a small sample.



That video is downright horrifying!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject:

King Kleazy wrote:
And if we get kawhi this summer, won’t Lebron be playing the 4 anyway, or is kawhi playing out of position at the 2?


Kawhi can play the 2 . . .
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
Pete, now that you've seen practices up close with the players and coaches, curious what you think about the organization's player development programs. Do you think the young players are being left behind in that department?

I really feel like the staff is underwhelming, and I'd hate to see our young players explode on another team with better guidance. Or maybe I'm just off in my assessment from a distance.


The vast majority of what I see is guys getting individual work in after practice, so I can only speak to that. One thing that's always bothered me is the only guy who really gives instructions to his players during this time is Miles Simon.

I'll give you an example of a "neutral" player here who no one's really invested in one way or the other at this point, Moe Wagner. He'd usually be the first guy getting shots up at Staples when I'd get there, around 4:30pm or so. This was during his rehab so it wasn't like he needed to have a clear head for that night's game or anything like that. I sit in the first row behind the courtside seats and just watch and the arena's empty except for a few people, so I'm close enough to hear everything.

Wagner's follow-though on his jumper is different nearly every time. There are a bunch of different styles of shooting, but one constant throughout all of them (so far as I'm aware) is that you want a guy to shoot the same way every time, at least on catch & shoots, regardlless of his particular shooting form. Wagner doesn't do that and no one says anything about it in the moment.

I've never been an NBA coach so maybe I just have an overly-romanticized idea of what that means, but to me it seems like that's something you'd want a coach reinforcing corrections that you're trying to make while he's shooting, especially when he's rehabbing. I understand not wanting to tweak a guy's jumper the night of a game, but that's not what this was.

Anyway, that anecdote is indicative of something that's bothered me in far more circumstances than just that. Every time Julius Randle would twist his hips in mid-air while shooting practice jumpers I wondered why no one was saying anything too.

Again...I don't see enough or know enough to speak definitively on it, but it's something that bothers me based on the information that I do have.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Ziggy wrote:
Pete, now that you've seen practices up close with the players and coaches, curious what you think about the organization's player development programs. Do you think the young players are being left behind in that department?

I really feel like the staff is underwhelming, and I'd hate to see our young players explode on another team with better guidance. Or maybe I'm just off in my assessment from a distance.


The vast majority of what I see is guys getting individual work in after practice, so I can only speak to that. One thing that's always bothered me is the only guy who really gives instructions to his players during this time is Miles Simon.

I'll give you an example of a "neutral" player here who no one's really invested in one way or the other at this point, Moe Wagner. He'd usually be the first guy getting shots up at Staples when I'd get there, around 4:30pm or so. This was during his rehab so it wasn't like he needed to have a clear head for that night's game or anything like that. I sit in the first row behind the courtside seats and just watch and the arena's empty except for a few people, so I'm close enough to hear everything.

Wagner's follow-though on his jumper is different nearly every time. There are a bunch of different styles of shooting, but one constant throughout all of them (so far as I'm aware) is that you want a guy to shoot the same way every time, at least on catch & shoots, regardlless of his particular shooting form. Wagner doesn't do that and no one says anything about it in the moment.

I've never been an NBA coach so maybe I just have an overly-romanticized idea of what that means, but to me it seems like that's something you'd want a coach reinforcing corrections that you're trying to make while he's shooting, especially when he's rehabbing. I understand not wanting to tweak a guy's jumper the night of a game, but that's not what this was.

Anyway, that anecdote is indicative of something that's bothered me in far more circumstances than just that. Every time Julius Randle would twist his hips in mid-air while shooting practice jumpers I wondered why no one was saying anything too.

Again...I don't see enough or know enough to speak definitively on it, but it's something that bothers me based on the information that I do have.

I don't think you have overly-romanticized ideas at all. I think it's a legit gripe, especially when you apply it to areas outside of just shooting. Kuz's happy feet on defense. Ingram's shot selection. Screen setting. Boxing out. Fundamentals that you can teach high school kids, but for some reason these professionals just can't seem to learn year after year. Everyone talks about the work ethic of these kids, and yet such basic flaws remain unaddressed. Either they're lying about their work ethic, or their development is lacking the necessary guidance.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject:

Don't mistake activity with achievement. You can "work hard" all you want but you need to work right.
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