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Mike@LG
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 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I’ve heard more about his defense improving too. Maybe I should watch games. But still... thought he’d be in 20+/4/5 territory at this point. He was legitimately great last season before getting injured.
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He's knocking on NVE numbers. Can't be that bad. 4th leading scorer, 1st in assists for his rookie class. At least that shows some relative comparison to the draft crop that year.
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BigBoi
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | Before Ingram got injured he thought he was the number two guy. That's why Kuzma was struggling so much offensively. Kuzma should be the number two guy he's more polished offensively. |
Kuzma wasn’t struggling much offensively, he was averaging 16pts/5rebs/2asts on 55% TS he and BI also had a 3.3 NetRtg when both were on the floor, highest in the starting lineup, they played well together.
Last edited by BigBoi on Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| BigBoi wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | Before Ingram got injured he thought he was the number two guy. That's why Kuzma was struggling so much offensively. Kuzma should be the number two guy he's more polished offensively. |
Kuzma wasn’t struggling much offensively, he was averaging 16pts/5rebs/2asts on |
46.5% 30% until this month.
There was *some* struggle there.
This month he's 51% 36.7%.
23.3, 6.7, 3.6.
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AirTupac
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Imagine BI had a game like Hart last night? People would be calling for him to be traded for Ariza.
BI was sorely missed against Spurs too. |
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awntawn
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Hart played a pretty bad game by his own standards last night, and visibly had very little impact, yet he finished with a +30, numbers that will definitely skew the lineup data even further in his favor when he was pretty obviously just a beneficiary of the other players having a great game.
I understand the value of on/off lineup data, but the notion that he's the missing link unlocking that lineup's powers may be a little misleading. They clearly play differently when BI's not in the line-up, but the conclusion that you're drawing that it's because of "BI can't play like Hart" is not a given.
The alternate explanation is that because "Hart can't play like BI", Lebron ends up playmaking for that lineup a lot more, and because Lebron's an infinitely better playmaker than BI, the numbers for that lineup end up looking a lot better.
It's not necessarily that Josh Hart is a better player than Ingram, it's that Lebron James is clearly a better player than Ingram, and Lebron James decides to be (because he has to be) Lebron James much more often while Josh Hart is on the court instead of Ingram.
So while the numbers look better with Hart in lineup, if it's actually just a byproduct of a line-up that leans heavier on Lebron, is that really what we want for the team moving forward? Especially knowing that no matter what happens, we don't have the talent to beat Golden State this year, and that we have to preserve Lebron for 3 more years after this one? |
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Villain6Activated
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| AirTupac wrote: | Imagine BI had a game like Hart last night? People would be calling for him to be traded for Ariza.
BI was sorely missed against Spurs too. |
On this thread, we prefer to play the game of basketball on google spreadsheets with those delicious advanced stats.
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| AirTupac wrote: | Imagine BI had a game like Hart last night? People would be calling for him to be traded for Ariza.
BI was sorely missed against Spurs too. |
I care a lot more about how the team plays than an individual's points and FG%, which comprise way too much of how people determine whether or not someone had a good game. Hart was part of the reason that the team played so well, which is usually the case with him. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The alternate explanation is that because "Hart can't play like BI", Lebron ends up playmaking for that lineup a lot more, and because Lebron's an infinitely better playmaker than BI, the numbers for that lineup end up looking a lot better.
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I think LeBron's playmaking has been roughly the same, but it's Lonzo and Kuzma that stepped WAY up. Kuzma doubled his assists for December. Lonzo has been attacking a lot more through PnR opportunities and with burst off screens.
LeBron's numbers didn't really change, except, maybe more scoring. His assists went up. Eye test says the ball moves more, Kuzma has been the recipient, and he's been more efficient. LeBron's USG in December has actually dropped to 31.6 from 33.4. A small change, but it gives an idea that it's not all LeBron.
Lonzo? From 16.3 to 17 
Kyle? 21.3 to 24.8
Hart? 12.8 to 13.3
But it's the subtle contributions from everywhere else that has made that particular starting lineup more effective, compensating for what would be Ingram's USG.
Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. Josh Hart is essentially playing the role that we wanted Paul George in. High end shooter/defender; 3 and D-ish. Doesn't really isolate. Still aggressive in attacks. We always knew that would be an easier fit in the starting lineup, especially next to LeBron. Clearly, it's that 3-and-D archetype that fits best with the starting lineup, regardless of who the better player is.
Even through 9 games and 20 minutes of total playing time,
Chandler/Kuzma/LeBron/KCP/Ball = +17
When it's McGee it's -1 through 33 total minutes. Doesn't surprise me. TC sets the best screens.
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32
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | BigBoi wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | Before Ingram got injured he thought he was the number two guy. That's why Kuzma was struggling so much offensively. Kuzma should be the number two guy he's more polished offensively. |
Kuzma wasn’t struggling much offensively, he was averaging 16pts/5rebs/2asts on |
46.5% 30% until this month.
There was *some* struggle there.
This month he's 51% 36.7%.
23.3, 6.7, 3.6. |
Well it seemed to me that Kuz had to work a lot harder in the offense and the offense didn't flow as well.
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PauPau
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| 1ngr4m wrote: | | AirTupac wrote: | Imagine BI had a game like Hart last night? People would be calling for him to be traded for Ariza.
BI was sorely missed against Spurs too. |
On this thread, we prefer to play the game of basketball on google spreadsheets with those delicious advanced stats. |
This is actually quite funny.
Hart didn't play particularly well vs Charlotte, the team played well with Hart in the line up.
Thats the most important thing
Can we get a better individual performance from the #2 guard? Sure, and we're still searching but it has to be in context.
No point in having a player kick a$$ while the team is 6-24 is there?
Read Mike's article.
http://bball-index.com/lakers-game-29-2018/ |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | BigBoi wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | Before Ingram got injured he thought he was the number two guy. That's why Kuzma was struggling so much offensively. Kuzma should be the number two guy he's more polished offensively. |
Kuzma wasn’t struggling much offensively, he was averaging 16pts/5rebs/2asts on |
46.5% 30% until this month.
There was *some* struggle there.
This month he's 51% 36.7%.
23.3, 6.7, 3.6. |
Well it seemed to me that Kuz had to work a lot harder in the offense and the offense didn't flow as well. |
I disagree. There's role switching going on in here and Kuzma has been taking advantage, because it's more natural to him. I wouldn't say that's working harder. *This* is his game.
Kuzma isn't just spotting up like he was when BI was in the lineup. He's attacking closeouts. A lot more isolation drives. A lot more floaters/hooks in the paint. This is the guy we saw last year, so I'm not surprised in the big leap in numbers across the board.
But now that Kuzma is attacking, Hart is far more reluctant. Now he's the spot up shooter. Hart attacks WAY more when he's coming off the bench. At least that's my perception.
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| 1ngr4m wrote: | | AirTupac wrote: | Imagine BI had a game like Hart last night? People would be calling for him to be traded for Ariza.
BI was sorely missed against Spurs too. |
On this thread, we prefer to play the game of basketball on google spreadsheets with those delicious advanced stats. |
Did you already hand in your quiz?
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| PauPau wrote: | | 1ngr4m wrote: | | AirTupac wrote: | Imagine BI had a game like Hart last night? People would be calling for him to be traded for Ariza.
BI was sorely missed against Spurs too. |
On this thread, we prefer to play the game of basketball on google spreadsheets with those delicious advanced stats. |
This is actually quite funny.
Hart didn't play particularly well vs Charlotte, the team played well with Hart in the line up.
Thats the most important thing
Can we get a better individual performance from the #2 guard? Sure, and we're still searching but it has to be in context.
No point in having a player kick a$$ while the team is 6-24 is there?
Read Mike's article.
http://bball-index.com/lakers-game-29-2018/ |
I'm still debating whether KCP should get the start at the 2 slot with Hart getting split minutes between the starters and bench units.
When I think of it in terms of, "What does a player do best?", then KCP's shooting should take priority over Hart's slashing.
But behind the arc, Hart has been fire this month.
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Last edited by Mike@LG on Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:37 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | I think LeBron's playmaking has been roughly the same, but it's Lonzo and Kuzma that stepped WAY up. |
I disagree.
Lebron's assist % for the year: 33.9
Lebron's assist % in wins without Ingram: 42.7, 47.4, 46.5, 54.4, 46.1
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | I think LeBron's playmaking has been roughly the same, but it's Lonzo and Kuzma that stepped WAY up. |
I disagree.
Lebron's assist % for the year: 33.9
Lebron's assist % in wins without Ingram: 42.7, 47.4, 46.5, 54.4, 46.1 |
Assist percentages would go up when they're going to guys that shoot more efficiently and don't go to as many Iso-types. But I think LeBron is making the same kinds of passes and plays. Does that make more sense?
Even cross checking the number of drives per game per NBA.com (and I've found errors in that site), it's just +2 drives.
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BigBoi
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| 32 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | BigBoi wrote: | | 32 wrote: | | Before Ingram got injured he thought he was the number two guy. That's why Kuzma was struggling so much offensively. Kuzma should be the number two guy he's more polished offensively. |
Kuzma wasn’t struggling much offensively, he was averaging 16pts/5rebs/2asts on |
46.5% 30% until this month.
There was *some* struggle there.
This month he's 51% 36.7%.
23.3, 6.7, 3.6. |
Well it seemed to me that Kuz had to work a lot harder in the offense and the offense didn't flow as well. |
The last 5 games before BI went down Kuz was averaging 18pts/6rebs/2asts on 56% TS he had already started his upward trend before Ingram went down. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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+5 minutes per game during that stint will do that.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | I think LeBron's playmaking has been roughly the same, but it's Lonzo and Kuzma that stepped WAY up. |
I disagree.
Lebron's assist % for the year: 33.9
Lebron's assist % in wins without Ingram: 42.7, 47.4, 46.5, 54.4, 46.1 |
Assist percentages would go up when they're going to guys that shoot more efficiently and don't go to as many Iso-types. But I think LeBron is making the same kinds of passes and plays. Does that make more sense?
Even cross checking the number of drives per game per NBA.com (and I've found errors in that site), it's just +2 drives. |
I wish NBA.com tracked points responsible for (scoring and assisting). Because that stat would be informative for this convo.
I agree stylistically he's playing the same. I have noticed, to start games (and when opposing teams go on runs) we've relied on his playmaking more than when Ingram was healthy. And I only noticed it because I was complaining about not using Lebron this way earlier in the season.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | I think LeBron's playmaking has been roughly the same, but it's Lonzo and Kuzma that stepped WAY up. |
I disagree.
Lebron's assist % for the year: 33.9
Lebron's assist % in wins without Ingram: 42.7, 47.4, 46.5, 54.4, 46.1 |
Assist percentages would go up when they're going to guys that shoot more efficiently and don't go to as many Iso-types. But I think LeBron is making the same kinds of passes and plays. Does that make more sense?
Even cross checking the number of drives per game per NBA.com (and I've found errors in that site), it's just +2 drives. |
I wish NBA.com tracked points responsible for (scoring and assisting). Because that stat would be informative for this convo.
I agree stylistically he's playing the same. I have noticed, to start games (and when opposing teams go on runs) we've relied on his playmaking more than when Ingram was healthy. And I only noticed it because I was complaining about not using Lebron this way earlier in the season. |
Agreed. There's a lot of stats out there that just aren't tracked and I wish they were. Lately, I think LeBron has been going out of his way in the 1st half to score. If I were to get hyper critical of LeBron, I'd take a look at the number of possessions where he dominates the basketball in the halfcourt less than 4 passes. Unfortunately, I find that trending up too. Fortunately Kuzma is a go-and-catch type of scorer, Lonzo keeps moving the ball, and Josh Hart is decisive, so outside of LeBron, the ball doesn't really stop.
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | I’ve heard more about his defense improving too. Maybe I should watch games. But still... thought he’d be in 20+/4/5 territory at this point. He was legitimately great last season before getting injured.
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He's knocking on NVE numbers. Can't be that bad. 4th leading scorer, 1st in assists for his rookie class. At least that shows some relative comparison to the draft crop that year. |
Yep. He’s perfectly fine, I just had much higher hopes considering his talent. He can still get there, but when we first drafted him during those first few years I was 90% convinced he’d get there. Where am I now on that... like less than 40% convinced he’ll truly have a breakout star season?
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | I’ve heard more about his defense improving too. Maybe I should watch games. But still... thought he’d be in 20+/4/5 territory at this point. He was legitimately great last season before getting injured.
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He's knocking on NVE numbers. Can't be that bad. 4th leading scorer, 1st in assists for his rookie class. At least that shows some relative comparison to the draft crop that year. |
Yep. He’s perfectly fine, I just had much higher hopes considering his talent. He can still get there, but when we first drafted him during those first few years I was 90% convinced he’d get there. Where am I now on that... like less than 40% convinced he’ll truly have a breakout star season? |
Sometimes it just take longer. I've got a lot of patience for these freshman drafted kids because the expectations are high and they've got a lot of development, both on the basketball floor and interpersonally to do.
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Villain6Activated
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly though, I’d Lonzo and Kuzma keep performing as they’ve been I could see a scenario where Ingram comes off the bench in his first game back.
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Outspoken
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| 1ngr4m wrote: | | Honestly though, I’d Lonzo and Kuzma keep performing as they’ve been I could see a scenario where Ingram comes off the bench in his first game back. |
And I could see a scenario where magic would want to get rid of Luke. Magic is really high on Ingram. |
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tox
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: |
He's basically doing what JaVale's done, but better. Guys like him never win the award, but he's one of the best 6th men in the league. |
This seems really obvious given how good he's been for us, and yet it didn't even occur to me. Point taken |
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CantStopJM
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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"team plays better without BI"
this is a game where BI would have excelled. we've have so many games where we had no energy and nothing going for us but BI kept us in it. |
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