| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Kava
Star Player
Joined: 10 Mar 2010
Posts: 2173
|
 Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| governator wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | I think it's just two different tiers of talent and two different tiers of approach.
Ben Simmons is a Top 10 current NBA talent, but IMHO doesn't show the effort/intangibles to get him there. I think that started since LSU where there were quite a few signs, and even now, the improvement from 2nd to 3rd year is minimal.
Ingram is the tier lower level of talent, but there's absolutely no doubt that he's flashed defense, passing, even spot up 3pt shooting. He's had WAY more skill mountains to climb, but he's been climbing them. Simmons, plateaued.
Effort isn't an age thing. Both guys look laid back, but there's a reason why Simmons has a really low effort game every 4th or 5th game. It doesn't make sense considering his level of talent.
Honestly, he could be LeBron without a jumper if he wanted. Guess what separates them. |
How bout BI and Siakam, how far apart are they? |
I know your not asking me but it's an interesting question. I feel the main difference is that Siakam knows who he is on the floor. BI's so good at so many things his game has yet to be defined - to his detriment.
Our new coach hopefully can reign BI in a bit and have him run some stuff he'll excel at. Watching Mike's vid on Lue's spread offense comes to mind - I think BI was mentioned specifically as someone who would thrive in a spread style offense w/o the middle being all clogged up.
Siakam in many ways benefits from the talent AND the scheme TOR runs.
Replace BI w/ Siakam on TOR & he would be deadly IMO. Luke's stuff just didn't work with the talent we had here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bfc1125roy
Starting Rotation
Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 682
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's the way Ingram gets his points that is the problem. He usually isolates and either blindy attacks the rim or pulls up for a contested midrange shot. He is making life much more difficult for himself. Instead he needs to learn to play off ball (especially with LeBron who will usually have the ball) and get his baskets within the flow of the offense. When he's not doing that, everybody else just stands around and watches. So while he may get his 20 points, we won't win the game. I would also like to see more consistent effort on the defensive end, but that's a different story.
Tatum, whether you like him or not, has shown more maturity and development in that aspect of the game. Rather than forcing the issue every time down. That's why even though his numbers are down, most people outside of Lakers and Celtics fans prefer him to Ingram. Also by being more physically developed, he has less restrictions in terms of what he can and cannot do.
Unless Ingram fundamentally changes the way he plays the game, I don't see him becoming an all star. Especially in the west with loads of elite wings.
_________________
(bleep) David Stern. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
audioaxes
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 12573
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bfc1125roy wrote: | It's the way Ingram gets his points that is the problem. He usually isolates and either blindy attacks the rim or pulls up for a contested midrange shot. He is making life much more difficult for himself. Instead he needs to learn to play off ball (especially with LeBron who will usually have the ball) and get his baskets within the flow of the offense. When he's not doing that, everybody else just stands around and watches. So while he may get his 20 points, we won't win the game. I would also like to see more consistent effort on the defensive end, but that's a different story.
Tatum, whether you like him or not, has shown more maturity and development in that aspect of the game. Rather than forcing the issue every time down. That's why even though his numbers are down, most people outside of Lakers and Celtics fans prefer him to Ingram. Also by being more physically developed, he has less restrictions in terms of what he can and cannot do.
Unless Ingram fundamentally changes the way he plays the game, I don't see him becoming an all star. Especially in the west with loads of elite wings. |
completely agree
and things will not be getting easier for him if we sign a 2nd MAX this season where he would then be the #3 option. I really hope he's ready to change how he plays once he comes back from injury.
_________________
(bleep) Kawhi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sentient Meat
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
LeBron will probably have only one or two elite years left.
At that point 23 year old Ingram will have more usefulness for this team.
Why do people discuss LBJ like he will play like a top 5 player forever?
I'm not saying Ingram will come close to a top ten player at this stage... but he will probably better than old LBJ in a few years.
That is why you nurture him and keep him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25075
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sentient Meat wrote: | LeBron will probably have only one or two elite years left.
At that point 23 year old Ingram will have more usefulness for this team.
Why do people discuss LBJ like he will play like a top 5 player forever?
I'm not saying Ingram will come close to a top ten player at this stage... but he will probably better than old LBJ in a few years.
That is why you nurture him and keep him. |
We need LBJ to play like an elite max for the next 3 yrs, like 2nd 3-peat MJ... cause we paying him like such |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LuciusAllen
Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2005
Posts: 5786
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bfc1125roy wrote: | It's the way Ingram gets his points that is the problem. He usually isolates and either blindy attacks the rim or pulls up for a contested midrange shot. He is making life much more difficult for himself. Instead he needs to learn to play off ball (especially with LeBron who will usually have the ball) and get his baskets within the flow of the offense. When he's not doing that, everybody else just stands around and watches. So while he may get his 20 points, we won't win the game. I would also like to see more consistent effort on the defensive end, but that's a different story.
Tatum, whether you like him or not, has shown more maturity and development in that aspect of the game. Rather than forcing the issue every time down. That's why even though his numbers are down, most people outside of Lakers and Celtics fans prefer him to Ingram. Also by being more physically developed, he has less restrictions in terms of what he can and cannot do.
Unless Ingram fundamentally changes the way he plays the game, I don't see him becoming an all star. Especially in the west with loads of elite wings. |
Subjectively, I think he was figuring that out already, in the last few weeks of his season. That's his efficiency skyrocketed. I could be wrong, as I'm not rewatching any of those games anytime soon.
I think BI's approach to learning how to be an effective player is a little different than many. I don't think he improves his entire skillset broadly in small increments. It seems to me like he hyper-focuses on one part of his skillset, and experiments with that in-game, ad nauseum, until he figures it out. Maybe it's just the way he's wired. It wouldn't shock me to see him attempt 8 3PT shots per game next year, if that's what he's trying to refine.
Anyway, he's 21, he's not dumb, and he works his butt off (as demonstrated by his lack of one). You may feel he needs to change his game in a fundamental way, but I think that in a few years, his game will look fundamentally different as it evolves naturally. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LuciusAllen wrote: | | bfc1125roy wrote: | It's the way Ingram gets his points that is the problem. He usually isolates and either blindy attacks the rim or pulls up for a contested midrange shot. He is making life much more difficult for himself. Instead he needs to learn to play off ball (especially with LeBron who will usually have the ball) and get his baskets within the flow of the offense. When he's not doing that, everybody else just stands around and watches. So while he may get his 20 points, we won't win the game. I would also like to see more consistent effort on the defensive end, but that's a different story.
Tatum, whether you like him or not, has shown more maturity and development in that aspect of the game. Rather than forcing the issue every time down. That's why even though his numbers are down, most people outside of Lakers and Celtics fans prefer him to Ingram. Also by being more physically developed, he has less restrictions in terms of what he can and cannot do.
Unless Ingram fundamentally changes the way he plays the game, I don't see him becoming an all star. Especially in the west with loads of elite wings. |
Subjectively, I think he was figuring that out already, in the last few weeks of his season. That's his efficiency skyrocketed. I could be wrong, as I'm not rewatching any of those games anytime soon.
I think BI's approach to learning how to be an effective player is a little different than many. I don't think he improves his entire skillset broadly in small increments. It seems to me like he hyper-focuses on one part of his skillset, and experiments with that in-game, ad nauseum, until he figures it out. Maybe it's just the way he's wired. It wouldn't shock me to see him attempt 8 3PT shots per game next year, if that's what he's trying to refine.
Anyway, he's 21, he's not dumb, and he works his butt off (as demonstrated by his lack of one). You may feel he needs to change his game in a fundamental way, but I think that in a few years, his game will look fundamentally different as it evolves naturally. |
You're partially correct. Ingram the last few weeks before his blood clot was starting to figure out where to pick and choose his spots and was playing less out of control. He still took lots of midrange shots but they were better looks and he was making the difficult ones too which upped his efficiency numbers. I liked what I was seeing from the kid during that stretch. Hopefully he continues to trend that way and doesn't need another 40 game to get his rhythm again next season |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Luminous8
Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
Posts: 2192
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bi damn near elite percentages from mid range. He was also top 10 as an iso scorer. He became a terrific cutter late in the season.
And for those who say LBj will have the ball most of the time, I’ve got to disagree. Bi had become much heavier ball handling (bron was often grading him to run the offense through) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated
Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 6697
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Juggernaut wrote: | | LuciusAllen wrote: | | bfc1125roy wrote: | It's the way Ingram gets his points that is the problem. He usually isolates and either blindy attacks the rim or pulls up for a contested midrange shot. He is making life much more difficult for himself. Instead he needs to learn to play off ball (especially with LeBron who will usually have the ball) and get his baskets within the flow of the offense. When he's not doing that, everybody else just stands around and watches. So while he may get his 20 points, we won't win the game. I would also like to see more consistent effort on the defensive end, but that's a different story.
Tatum, whether you like him or not, has shown more maturity and development in that aspect of the game. Rather than forcing the issue every time down. That's why even though his numbers are down, most people outside of Lakers and Celtics fans prefer him to Ingram. Also by being more physically developed, he has less restrictions in terms of what he can and cannot do.
Unless Ingram fundamentally changes the way he plays the game, I don't see him becoming an all star. Especially in the west with loads of elite wings. |
Subjectively, I think he was figuring that out already, in the last few weeks of his season. That's his efficiency skyrocketed. I could be wrong, as I'm not rewatching any of those games anytime soon.
I think BI's approach to learning how to be an effective player is a little different than many. I don't think he improves his entire skillset broadly in small increments. It seems to me like he hyper-focuses on one part of his skillset, and experiments with that in-game, ad nauseum, until he figures it out. Maybe it's just the way he's wired. It wouldn't shock me to see him attempt 8 3PT shots per game next year, if that's what he's trying to refine.
Anyway, he's 21, he's not dumb, and he works his butt off (as demonstrated by his lack of one). You may feel he needs to change his game in a fundamental way, but I think that in a few years, his game will look fundamentally different as it evolves naturally. |
You're partially correct. Ingram the last few weeks before his blood clot was starting to figure out where to pick and choose his spots and was playing less out of control. He still took lots of midrange shots but they were better looks and he was making the difficult ones too which upped his efficiency numbers. I liked what I was seeing from the kid during that stretch. Hopefully he continues to trend that way and doesn't need another 40 game to get his rhythm again next season
|
This times 1000
_________________
“Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Luminous8 wrote: | Bi damn near elite percentages from mid range. He was also top 10 as an iso scorer. He became a terrific cutter late in the season.
And for those who say LBj will have the ball most of the time, I’ve got to disagree. Bi had become much heavier ball handling (bron was often grading him to run the offense through) |
If Lonzo is still around and they get another max or near max FA his touches will drastically decrease and Brons won’t. I also think Bron packed it in pretty early on so I’m not sure that’s indicative of how things will be next year. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated
Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 6697
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | Bi damn near elite percentages from mid range. He was also top 10 as an iso scorer. He became a terrific cutter late in the season.
And for those who say LBj will have the ball most of the time, I’ve got to disagree. Bi had become much heavier ball handling (bron was often grading him to run the offense through) |
If Lonzo is still around and they get another max or near max FA his touches will drastically decrease and Brons won’t. I also think Bron packed it in pretty early on so I’m not sure that’s indicative of how things will be next year. |
Him as a not two option under a new coaching staff is a blessing in disguise. Also I highly doubt Ingram's touches go down due to Lonzo Ball out of all people.
_________________
“Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1ngr4m wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | Bi damn near elite percentages from mid range. He was also top 10 as an iso scorer. He became a terrific cutter late in the season.
And for those who say LBj will have the ball most of the time, I’ve got to disagree. Bi had become much heavier ball handling (bron was often grading him to run the offense through) |
If Lonzo is still around and they get another max or near max FA his touches will drastically decrease and Brons won’t. I also think Bron packed it in pretty early on so I’m not sure that’s indicative of how things will be next year. |
Him as a not two option under a new coaching staff is a blessing in disguise. Also I highly doubt Ingram's touches go down due to Lonzo Ball out of all people. |
Could be but he’d need to adjust his game. He’ll be bringing the ball up the court less with a healthy Zo. You disagree? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated
Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 6697
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | 1ngr4m wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | Bi damn near elite percentages from mid range. He was also top 10 as an iso scorer. He became a terrific cutter late in the season.
And for those who say LBj will have the ball most of the time, I’ve got to disagree. Bi had become much heavier ball handling (bron was often grading him to run the offense through) |
If Lonzo is still around and they get another max or near max FA his touches will drastically decrease and Brons won’t. I also think Bron packed it in pretty early on so I’m not sure that’s indicative of how things will be next year. |
Him as a not two option under a new coaching staff is a blessing in disguise. Also I highly doubt Ingram's touches go down due to Lonzo Ball out of all people. |
Could be but he’d need to adjust his game. He’ll be bringing the ball up the court less with a healthy Zo. You disagree? |
I think he needs to stop bringing the ball up the court period. I'm just saying that in the half court, I don't think Zo really takes away from anyones touches even with his 10 shots a game.
Brandon Ingram in an actual off ball role (not the one where he stands in the corner waiting for the ball) with his focus on defense will do wonders for him, his stock and his team.
Even if you think him not being active off ball is due to his tendencies, I think he'll be much more active in an actual offensive system. I honestly think Luke dropped the stock of both Ball and Ingram.
_________________
“Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1ngr4m wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | 1ngr4m wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | Bi damn near elite percentages from mid range. He was also top 10 as an iso scorer. He became a terrific cutter late in the season.
And for those who say LBj will have the ball most of the time, I’ve got to disagree. Bi had become much heavier ball handling (bron was often grading him to run the offense through) |
If Lonzo is still around and they get another max or near max FA his touches will drastically decrease and Brons won’t. I also think Bron packed it in pretty early on so I’m not sure that’s indicative of how things will be next year. |
Him as a not two option under a new coaching staff is a blessing in disguise. Also I highly doubt Ingram's touches go down due to Lonzo Ball out of all people. |
Could be but he’d need to adjust his game. He’ll be bringing the ball up the court less with a healthy Zo. You disagree? |
I think he needs to stop bringing the ball up the court period. I'm just saying that in the half court, I don't think Zo really takes away from anyones touches even with his 10 shots a game.
Brandon Ingram in an actual off ball role (not the one where he stands in the corner waiting for the ball) with his focus on defense will do wonders for him, his stock and his team.
Even if you think him not being active off ball is due to his tendencies, I think he'll be much more active in an actual offensive system. I honestly think Luke dropped the stock of both Ball and Ingram. |
As you know, I don’t agree about the why Ingram does what he does but as usual, I hope you’re right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I'm trying to understand why anyone would think Ingram shouldn't be bringing the ball up the court. Especially when he gets a board and initiates a break. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Villain6Activated
Star Player
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 6697
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | I'm trying to understand why anyone would think Ingram shouldn't be bringing the ball up the court. Especially when he gets a board and initiates a break. |
If he gets a board and initiates the break that's different then him bringing the ball up the floor as a point guard.
_________________
“Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 1ngr4m wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | I'm trying to understand why anyone would think Ingram shouldn't be bringing the ball up the court. Especially when he gets a board and initiates a break. |
If he gets a board and initiates the break that's different then him bringing the ball up the floor as a point guard. |
I was responding to.. "I think he needs to stop bringing the ball up the court period."
He's done a decent job at it as a PG, as with everything he's been asked to do, he generally improves as he acclimates. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | 1ngr4m wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | I'm trying to understand why anyone would think Ingram shouldn't be bringing the ball up the court. Especially when he gets a board and initiates a break. |
If he gets a board and initiates the break that's different then him bringing the ball up the floor as a point guard. |
I was responding to.. "I think he needs to stop bringing the ball up the court period."
He's done a decent job at it as a PG, as with everything he's been asked to do, he generally improves as he acclimates. |
On occasion, it’s fine. Generally, I think he slows pace and ball movement forcing the team to try and score on a more set defense than when other players bring the ball up. I also think he settles for too many midrange jumpers without making a pass. Lastly, he’s at his best filling the lane in transition so I want him doing that as much as possible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | 1ngr4m wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | I'm trying to understand why anyone would think Ingram shouldn't be bringing the ball up the court. Especially when he gets a board and initiates a break. |
If he gets a board and initiates the break that's different then him bringing the ball up the floor as a point guard. |
I was responding to.. "I think he needs to stop bringing the ball up the court period."
He's done a decent job at it as a PG, as with everything he's been asked to do, he generally improves as he acclimates. |
On occasion, it’s fine. Generally, I think he slows pace and ball movement forcing the team to try and score on a more set defense than when other players bring the ball up. I also think he settles for too many midrange jumpers without making a pass. Lastly, he’s at his best filling the lane in transition so I want him doing that as much as possible. |
I agree that on occasion it is fine if he's playing the 1 or 2. I'd prefer Ball do it primarily. I don't agree that he slows the pace. I also don't agree that he settles for too many midrange jumpers during transition. How often have you seen him doing this? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | 1ngr4m wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | I'm trying to understand why anyone would think Ingram shouldn't be bringing the ball up the court. Especially when he gets a board and initiates a break. |
If he gets a board and initiates the break that's different then him bringing the ball up the floor as a point guard. |
I was responding to.. "I think he needs to stop bringing the ball up the court period."
He's done a decent job at it as a PG, as with everything he's been asked to do, he generally improves as he acclimates. |
On occasion, it’s fine. Generally, I think he slows pace and ball movement forcing the team to try and score on a more set defense than when other players bring the ball up. I also think he settles for too many midrange jumpers without making a pass. Lastly, he’s at his best filling the lane in transition so I want him doing that as much as possible. |
I agree that on occasion it is fine if he's playing the 1 or 2. I'd prefer Ball do it primarily. I don't agree that he slows the pace. I also don't agree that he settles for too many midrange jumpers during transition. How often have you seen him doing this? |
Fairly often. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sorry.. yea I don't see him initiating breaks and pulling up for mid-range jumpers without passing to anyone "fairly often". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | Sorry.. yea I don't see him initiating breaks and pulling up for mid-range jumpers without passing to anyone "fairly often". |
I meant when he brings the ball up, he slows pace and/or pulls up for mid range jumpers without a pass fairly often. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Sorry.. yea I don't see him initiating breaks and pulling up for mid-range jumpers without passing to anyone "fairly often". |
I meant when he brings the ball up, he slows pace and/or pulls up for mid range jumpers without a pass fairly often. |
Yea.. I'm saying I don't see that happening "fairly often". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SocalDevin wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Sorry.. yea I don't see him initiating breaks and pulling up for mid-range jumpers without passing to anyone "fairly often". |
I meant when he brings the ball up, he slows pace and/or pulls up for mid range jumpers without a pass fairly often. |
Yea.. I'm saying I don't see that happening "fairly often". |
I’m shocked. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SocalDevin
Star Player
Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | SocalDevin wrote: | | Sorry.. yea I don't see him initiating breaks and pulling up for mid-range jumpers without passing to anyone "fairly often". |
I meant when he brings the ball up, he slows pace and/or pulls up for mid range jumpers without a pass fairly often. |
Yea.. I'm saying I don't see that happening "fairly often". |
I’m shocked. |
Yea me too.. that you'd say what you're saying..  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
