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SocalDevin
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:19 pm Post subject:

So now Ingram is no longer a defender lol.. You guys crack me up.. First it was he's a historically bad shooter that probably will be limited by not being able to score from deep. He's silenced that noise and now were on to him not being able to defend, which is odd since he's already demonstrated he's a good defender.

venturalakersfan
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject:

AD23 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

He does not remind me of Giannis at all. Especially on D. Giannis is such a dominant driver you can not stop him. Ingram is a lot easier to defend going to the rim. Defensively Giannis plays multiple positions sort of like AD. Giannis is basically AD lite on D with better perimeter D.

Harden - the shooting and dribbling not even close.

He is going to be a class 2 star, I believe that will happen for sure for him. I do not think he will be anywhere near Giannis, or Harden. By year 4 those guys had shown who they were, and while they did get better even after that, their ability to score was such a weapon that no one had an answer. You just do not see that with Ingram.

IMO he is living off an offense that gives him a green light to shoot. It inflates stats. For example, Julius Randle averaged 21.4 points last year in the Pelicans offense playing behind AD and Jrue. Now AD is gone, Ingram is playing the big role. If Randle had the same opportunity last year with no AD, he would be averaging 25 ppg IMO.

On a good team, a playoff team, Ingram is a 16-18 ppg guy, at best. 2nd/3rd option type, more likely a 3rd option on a contender.

And that is exactly the player that the Lakers need. A 3rd option who can defend.

Too bad Pelicans demanded him in the trade. You need to just come to accept it. Griffin wanted BI in any deal for AD

Reading is paramount, you disagree that he is the type of player we need? I had no problem trading Ingram, I wanted to include him in a deal for PG before. It was a pretty simple statement that apparently you struggled with.
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Luminous8
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

So now Ingram is no longer a defender lol.. You guys crack me up.. First it was he's a historically bad shooter that probably will be limited by not being able to score from deep. He's silenced that noise and now were on to him not being able to defend, which is odd since he's already demonstrated he's a good defender.

I feel like we waste our time

venturalakersfan
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:01 pm Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

And that is exactly the player that the Lakers need. A 3rd option who can defend.

Sure Ingram could have developed into the player the Lakers are trying to develop Kuzma into. He is more talented. So he could have become a better 3rd option. Especially if he were willing to come off the bench with a positive attitude.

He is head and shoulders better than Kuzma, i really hope that the plan wasn’t for Kuzma to be a defending third option. That is why this roster seems incomplete, we have the potential to add that player in the offseason using the MLE.
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venturalakersfan
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:05 pm Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

LakerLogic wrote:

BI doesn't have a high enough motor to be a great defender it seems. Little impact in terms of help defense as well. His offense has been great.

Yet he locked up Doncic, Kyrie, PG, Porzingis, and others. You guys say the strangest things in here.

And a guy being laid back says nothing about their motor, that is fanspeak. Of the young players we have drafted I think that only Julius has the higher motor.
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venturalakersfan
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:07 pm Post subject:

22 wrote:

Kobesystem wrote:

Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo.

And I think he should be. I don’t see his game meshing with Zion’s.

I still don’t see much special with BI. I think if the lakers had developed him right (emphasize D first and brought the offensive responsibility along slowly) he could have wound up PG or Butler level. Now I see his ceiling as more of a derozan level player

So basically only an all NBA player?
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22
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:45 pm Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:

22 wrote:

Kobesystem wrote:

Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo.

So basically only an all NBA player?

Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy

SocalDevin
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:26 pm Post subject:

22 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

22 wrote:

Kobesystem wrote:

Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo.

So basically only an all NBA player?

Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy

This is such a bogus argument to make.. No one balks at the idea of including Ingram for AD. You'd have a hard time finding someone who thought Ingram was untradable for a future HOF.. So why do you guys keep saying this? AD wasn't even a franchise guy while he was with the Pels.. or at least he didn't lead them like one.

SocalDevin
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:27 pm Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

I feel like we waste our time

It really borders on ridiculous, I would think based on his current play we wouldn't see this kind of stuff lol..

AD23
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:04 pm Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:

AD23 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

And that is exactly the player that the Lakers need. A 3rd option who can defend.

Too bad Pelicans demanded him in the trade. You need to just come to accept it. Griffin wanted BI in any deal for AD

I know your game

lilmomo
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:15 pm Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

LakerLogic wrote:

BI doesn't have a high enough motor to be a great defender it seems. Little impact in terms of help defense as well. His offense has been great.

Yet he locked up Doncic, Kyrie, PG, Porzingis, and others. You guys say the strangest things in here.

Kyrie put up 39 points this year vs the pelicans. PG had 18 points and the Pels haven't played the Mavericks yet, and given how well Doncic is playing this year and how Ingram's defense has slipped this year I don't see him locking him up. In fact I don't think he's locked anyone up this year at all. I wish people will stop leaving in the past with regards to Ingram's defense.

venturalakersfan
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Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:59 pm Post subject:

AD23 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

AD23 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

And that is exactly the player that the Lakers need. A 3rd option who can defend.

Too bad Pelicans demanded him in the trade. You need to just come to accept it. Griffin wanted BI in any deal for AD

I know your game

Yes, it is dealing in facts. Something not popular here.
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SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:47 am Post subject:

lilmomo wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

LakerLogic wrote:

BI doesn't have a high enough motor to be a great defender it seems. Little impact in terms of help defense as well. His offense has been great.

Yet he locked up Doncic, Kyrie, PG, Porzingis, and others. You guys say the strangest things in here.

He locked up Porzingis this year.. and last season isn't living in the past. Kyrie didn't put up 39 on Ingram..

Luminous8
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Posts: 2192

Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:36 am Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

lilmomo wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

LakerLogic wrote:

BI doesn't have a high enough motor to be a great defender it seems. Little impact in terms of help defense as well. His offense has been great.

Yet he locked up Doncic, Kyrie, PG, Porzingis, and others. You guys say the strangest things in here.

He locked up Porzingis this year.. and last season isn't living in the past. Kyrie didn't put up 39 on Ingram..

Nope, in fact Gentry put BI on Irving when he was going off and suddenly it was LeVert who started to kill the Pels. Kyrie was getting the bell out of his hands and letting Caris do his thing.

SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:43 am Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

lilmomo wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

LakerLogic wrote:

BI doesn't have a high enough motor to be a great defender it seems. Little impact in terms of help defense as well. His offense has been great.

Yet he locked up Doncic, Kyrie, PG, Porzingis, and others. You guys say the strangest things in here.

He locked up Porzingis this year.. and last season isn't living in the past. Kyrie didn't put up 39 on Ingram..

Nope, in fact Gentry put BI on Irving when he was going off and suddenly it was LeVert who started to kill the Pels. Kyrie was getting the bell out of his hands and letting Caris do his thing.

It's really a weird argument to make.. "Yea well, you locked up guys last season, but what about 14 games into this season?"..

wolfpaclaker
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:12 am Post subject:

Ingram's defense has been average league wise, if not below. His D rating is 113. His D FG% is 46.4% (His contested D percentage) In contrast Lebron is at 43% DFG% and a much better D rating of 103. So Lebron has been playing much much better defense than Ingram, in fact it isn't even close. Lebron is an elite defender vs league standards, and Ingram is average at best. Kuzma even has a D rating of 107, and DFG% of similar to Ingram's at 46.6%, which is right around average. Now I know I'm in a Bradon Ingram fan thread, so it will be difficult to get people to see what I'm saying here, but he is not a good or elite defender on a consistent basis. He has the talent sure. Has he put it together as a 2-way guy? No. A 2-way star is Anthony Davis. A 2-way star is Lebron. Kawhi? A 2-way star. Look at their D ratings, and their D FG%. All very impressive. A 2-way role player is Avery Bradley. Check out his DFG%, his D rating, and all that. Ingram has talent, but to to put him on the path as becoming a better Paul George or "soooo much" better than Kuzma, to me is still too early. For reference - Paul George's 3rd year his D rating was 97. His DBPM was 2.9 and this was his 3rd year, Ingram is now in his 4th full year. Anthony Davis, in his 3rd year at 21 years age, had a D rating of 100 on same type pf Pelicans squad and a DBPM of 3.0 Ingram has a D rating of 112 and a DPM of -0.9 on the Pelicans.

Luminous8
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:49 am Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Ingram's defense has been average league wise, if not below.

His D rating is 113.
His D FG% is 46.4% (His contested D percentage)

In contrast Lebron is at 43% DFG% and a much better D rating of 103.

So Lebron has been playing much much better defense than Ingram, in fact it isn't even close. Lebron is an elite defender vs league standards, and Ingram is average at best.

Kuzma even has a D rating of 107, and DFG% of similar to Ingram's at 46.6%, which is right around average.

Now I know I'm in a Bradon Ingram fan thread, so it will be difficult to get people to see what I'm saying here, but he is not a good or elite defender on a consistent basis. He has the talent sure. Has he put it together as a 2-way guy? No.

A 2-way star is Anthony Davis. A 2-way star is Lebron. Kawhi? A 2-way star. Look at their D ratings, and their D FG%. All very impressive.

A 2-way role player is Avery Bradley. Check out his DFG%, his D rating, and all that.

Ingram has talent, but to to put him on the path as becoming a better Paul George or "soooo much" better than Kuzma, to me is still too early.

For reference - Paul George's 3rd year his D rating was 97. His DBPM was 2.9 and this was his 3rd year, Ingram is now in his 4th full year. Anthony Davis, in his 3rd year at 21 years age, had a D rating of 100 on same type pf Pelicans squad and a DBPM of 3.0

Ingram has a D rating of 112 and a DPM of -0.9 on the Pelicans.

That defensive rating is skewed by the guys you play beside. LeBron has been good on D this year, but last year he was also head and shoulder above everybody by defensive metrics but you could watch the damn game and see he was one of our poorest effort defenders.

KUzMa is literally attacked every game as a target defensively. I don’t need defensive metrics to tell me BI can play D and has on several occasions been given the assignment to (bleep) the other teams best player down. This year and last. He also guards anything from pg to pf. This is a ridiculous argument. The fact you’re going off of defensive metrics instead of simple eye test tells me you actually haven’t watched much Pels games this year. Myself on the other hand, I have actually watched more Pelicans than Lakers this year because I’m simply not a huge fan of the roster we have and don’t find them very aesthetically pleasing to watch.

So,... watch more games instead of reading metrics and making assumptions.

AD23
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:39 am Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:

AD23 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

AD23 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

And that is exactly the player that the Lakers need. A 3rd option who can defend.

Too bad Pelicans demanded him in the trade. You need to just come to accept it. Griffin wanted BI in any deal for AD

I know your game

Yes, it is dealing in facts. Something not popular here.

Here’s a fact AD > BI + Lonzo + Hart + all the draft picks

venturalakersfan
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:49 am Post subject:

22 wrote:

venturalakersfan wrote:

22 wrote:

Kobesystem wrote:

Still think he will get traded before the deadline. Along with Lonzo.

So basically only an all NBA player?

Yup which is a nice ceiling but certainly nothing to worry about losing for AD. I don’t think he can be a cornerstone franchise guy

I agree, Ingram can be a good complimentary player. And the same for AD.
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wolfpaclaker
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:29 am Post subject:

Quote:

LeBron has been good on D this year, but last year he was also head and shoulder above everybody by defensive metrics but you could watch the damn game and see he was one of our poorest effort defenders.

Lebron had a defensive rating of 108 last year. He was not a good defender on a consistent basis for a few years. It is well documented that he coasted in the RS.

109 the previous year in CLE.
108 the previous year before than in CLE.

He has improved his DFG% and D rating this year. He is back to Miami level defense.

Numbers support Lebron defensively this year in terms of improvement. They do not show Brandon as an elite defender that is capable to be on the same path as Kawhi or Paul George. Ingram has changed teams, yet his defensive numbers are same, and the Pelicans continue to lose in a fashion very similar to LA. Meanwhile the Lakers have taken Anthony Davis and become one of the best defensive teams in the league. Anthony Davis has elite DFG% numbers, elite defensive rim protection and elite numbers across the board.

Did not know that we traded Kawhi level or Paul George level player for Anthony Davis. I am sure if that kind of trade actually happened both teams would stay about the same give or take a few places. Instead what we have seen is one team go from a lottery team to a contender. The other team stay a contender. It is not like we added any major talent outside of the AD trade, Lebron is still Lebron. We did not get any other stars. We traded 2 starters and some picks for AD. The results so far show that we went from a lotto team to a contender. They stayed a lotto team. When Harden got traded from OKC, he made Houston a playoff team right away. When Giannis was in his 4th year, he was making the playoffs. When Paul George was in his 3rd and 4th year, he was a top 5 defender and 2-way star helping Indiana become an eastern conference contender. Ingram is a good player who has all-star caliber talent, and may become more in the future. For what he is now, and what he has shown, it is unlikely he will have the same impact as Paul George, Kawhi, Giannis, Harden etc.

Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total

Luminous8
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:37 am Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Quote:

Lebron had a defensive rating of 108 last year.
109 the previous year in CLE.
108 the previous year before than in CLE.

He has improved his DFG% and D rating this year.

Numbers support Lebron defensively this year in terms of improvement. They do not show Brandon as an elite defender that is capable to be on the same path as Kawhi or Paul George. Ingram has changed teams, yet his defensive numbers are same, and the Pelicans continue to lose in a fashion very similar to LA. Meanwhile the Lakers have taken Anthony Davis and become one of the best defensive teams in the league.

Did not know that we traded Kawhi level or Paul George level player for Anthony Davis. I am sure if that kind of trade actually happened both teams would stay about the same. Instead what we have seen is one team go from a lottery team to a contender. The other team stay a contender.

I did not realize BI was a finished product. But let’s keep pushing this asinine narrative that Bi is a bench player who wouldn’t be anything on a winning team because his Pelicans team is struggling to win despite having a total of over 70 games missed between players which iirc is league leading. But I forgot how good AnTHonY Davis did with a similar team,... wait, nevermind.

wolfpaclaker
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:43 am Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

Quote:

Ingram is a good player, possible all-star in the making. He would be coming off the bench in LA because AD starts at 4, and Lebron match up wise is a 3. So unless Ingram wants to play 5, he will be coming in as a backup 3, who can then close games when AD slides to 5. That is how I mentioned him as a bench guy for us. He would be better than Kuzma in that role. On a team with lesser talent, or where they needed a starting 3, he would be that. However so would Kuzma. Back to Ingram, my point about him is that he is a good player, but I disagree that he will be Paul George or Kawhi 2.0

I also think it is very reasonable to assume that considering AD is a 4 who plays some 5, Ingram would come in off the bench for the Lakers if he was somehow kept (which he was not going to be) and that Ingram has not made the Pelicans better the way Anthony Davis has made the Lakers. ADs defense has made us an elite defensive team. The moment we traded for AD, most people figured we went from a lottery team at best to a top 2-3 team in the West. That is the difference in impact. Ingram has not impacted the Pelicans the way Davis has the Lakers. If one can not even admit that, IDK.

Realize I am not blaming Ingram for Pels being a bad team, I am saying that he does not impact the game in wins and losses the way AD does for the Lakers. AD is a great fit for the Lakers because they have Lebron and needed a big man and a legit superstar to pair him with, Ingram (and Ball and Hart) were never going to be those guys for LBJ and these Lakers. The trade made absolute sense. I do not wish any ill will to Ingram. I just do not agree (and the numbers show this as well) that he is on the same path as Paul George or Kawhi, who were 2-way elite players by year 3-4 in the league.

LandsbergerRules
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:49 pm Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

You don't think BI could play the 2 alongside Bron and AD? Dude is killing it from 3 on high volume this year.
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SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:25 pm Post subject:

LandsbergerRules wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

You don't think BI could play the 2 alongside Bron and AD? Dude is killing it from 3 on high volume this year.

Clearly he can.. he played at the 2 for us last season.. But little things like that don't matter when you're mired in a particular perspective.

wolfpaclaker
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:31 pm Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

LandsbergerRules wrote:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

You don't think BI could play the 2 alongside Bron and AD? Dude is killing it from 3 on high volume this year.

Clearly he can.. he played at the 2 for us last season.. But little things like that don't matter when you're mired in a particular perspective.

Defense. Especially transition D with Ingram at the 2, Lebron at 3, AD at 4, and then a big ....would be poor.
This is the sort of thinking that made Luke Walton a failure.

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