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OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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tox
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:21 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

GoldenThroat wrote:

tox wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

So here's a list of 18-20 year old rookies who played as many minutes as Ingram who posted a BPM of -3 or worse:

Link

Marvin Williams and JR Smith went on to become productive role-players, while young scoring guards like Lavine and Booker have shown promise (though neither are positive BPM players yet in year two and three, respectively). Of course, Okafor and Mudiay are there as well.

It's only one data point, but BI has a pretty deep hole to dig himself out of to become a productive starter let alone a star after his very rocky first season. Will he be an outlier? Dirk posted a -2.9 BPM on 49% TS% as a 20 year old rookie and went on to become an all-time great. Hopefully BI will have a similar jump between years one and two that Dirk had, and then continue to get better from there.

Dirk strikes me as the best case scenario for Ingram. I think his -4 BPM or whatever is misleading. It was basically a redshirt season since he was so young and so thin. That's why I've always stressed the only concern you should have about Ingram (IMO) is his shooting because that's not just a matter of youth.

No concern over the low STL% & BLK%, especially considering his length?

Actually you're right. That is a point of concern. I don't think he has great shotblocking instincts or anticipation getting steals. I don't even think his on ball defense is good either. Guys like Giannis and Durant had far better numbers as a rookie (and Durant wasn't even much of a defender), and Durant also far outpaced Ingram in college (per 40 min anyways).

But to be fair, Durant and Giannis also improved, especially in terms of block %. I still have hope Ingram can be a secondary rim protection guy as he develops athletically. But I don't think he'll ever be a good steals guy, and frankly I feel like current KD is probably Ingram's peak defense, which is kind of depressing.

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

nash
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:29 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender?

tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:32 pm Post subject:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender?

Off ball or on ball?

On ball? Quick feet, motor, good instincts, quick hands, strength, low center of mass. Navigating screens.
Off ball? Good instincts, good tools (standing reach/ wingspan/ vertical/ speed), defensive awareness.

I'm open to other people's opinions. I've never really thought about it, actually.

nash
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender?

Good, I believe we have similar opinion about that.

Can we agree that Ingram checks most boxes so potential is there?

I mean, the strength can be acquired and the center of mass can be manipulated if you adapt your stance.

tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender?

I don't really think so. I don't think his on ball skills are there. Quick feet/ lateral quickness? No. Motor? No. Good hands? No. Strength/ low center of mass? No. Stuff like awareness and navigating screens I have zero concern with.

As far as off ball goes, I'm less concerned. He has tools. What concerns me is what GT brought up: very low steals/ blocks rate. I think Ingram will end up at 3-3.5% BLK% guy but I was hoping for something closer to a Giannis impact.

nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194

Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:47 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender?

When I tell he has to improve his footwork a lot I'm not talking just about offense, but a good portion of his defensive ineffectiveness are linked to a poor footwork too.

Villain6Activated
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject:

Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc. I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo. Found that kind of odd _________________ “Life is too short. You have to keep it moving.” - Kobe

VicXLakers
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject:

LilJay24 wrote:

Magic Johnson brought up Lonzo making teammates better and didn't bring up Ingram even once. He brought up Randle, Nance, Zu etc.

I would have thought the untouchable guy would atleast be brought up once in terms of how he fits with Lonzo.

Found that kind of odd

time to sit back and enjoy some basketball...can't analyze every grain of sand imo

tox
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:16 pm Post subject:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:39 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

Great points.. He isn't dependent on anyone generating offense for him to be effective.

Also, I think we would both agree that Anrdrei Kirilenko was a very good on and off ball defender. He didn't have exceptional lateral quickness.

For this reason I believe we might be making a bit too much of Ingram's defensive shortcomings in his first season.

repandpresent
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject:

Staccatos wrote:

I just found out Brandon's middle name is Xavier.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html

Xavier, X-Man, Henry, Professor X, McDaniel. Seems pretty common for a rare-ish name.

Makes me wonder if his number was 11 instead of 14. It would be perfect for branding.

BXI

Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

You wanna bet that Ingram averages 2 steals, 2.5 blocks, and posts a 3 DBPM next season?

epak
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:16 pm Post subject:

Does he pronounce it like the school? Or like McDaniels?

SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

How would we know what he needs to be effective when he hasn't been effective yet?

I don't understand the question. I was addressing Tox's concerns with Ingram's lateral quickness.

JeezyXVII
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject:

LilJay24 wrote:

He mention Zu and Nance cause they were in the back at the press conf for Lonzo.. and probably thought of the other big guy Rendle.

He didnt mention BI, Lopez, Deng, JC, Brewer, Nwaba.. guess their all getting traded

Last edited by JeezyXVII on Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:35 pm; edited 2 times in total

Halflife
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject:

Can't wait to see these 2

SocalDevin
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:33 pm Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

You wanna bet that Ingram averages 2 steals, 2.5 blocks, and posts a 3 DBPM next season?

Nope.. lol. He has all the tools to be an above average defender, I cant say that he will be though. I would also add that it's too early to say that it will always be an issue.

dao
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:34 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender?

Ingram had a few games earlier this season where he matched up against elite offensive players and had excellent defensive games. IIRC, One against Butler, one against Derozan, one against Paul George. He has shown flashes of elite defensive upside.

He didn't get a ton of steals and blocks, but those aren't requisites for high level defense. Tayhaun Prince was an excellent defender, and his career STL% and BLK% are both lower than rookie Ingram's STL% and BLK%.

Rookie Ingram several times showed us that he can match up well with elite offensive players. Obviously he wasn't a consistently good defender as a 19 year old rookie, but I think he showed plenty of defensive upside last year. I think he'll be an all NBA defender in his prime, which is why his upside is so high.

tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

Man AK47 was an outlier of outliers. 2.9% STL%, 5.9% BLK% as a rookie. I doubt BI gets close to that in his prime... it outpaces Giannis right now as well.

I don't recall his on ball defense like I do his off ball defense so I don't know if BI can get there.

DancingBarry
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject:

JeezyXVII wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Yeah, I'd read nothing into this other than those guys being in the room.

However, pretty sure Nance and Zu both are in our Untouchables with Ingram and now Ball.

tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject:

dao wrote:

tox wrote:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender?

Tayshaun is a perfectly reasonable comparison -- at least what I remember of Tayshaun. I had higher hopes for Ingram defensively a year ago, though.

SocalDevin
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Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

Yea him getting there is unlikely.. AK was one of the first players I seen that actually made Kobe uncomfortable. Kobe eventually solved that problem though. =)

dao
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:42 pm Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:

SocalDevin wrote:

tox wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

Obviously BI doesn't need anyone to make him better

In retrospect I wonder if calling BI untouchable was Magic's "clever" way of signifying Russell is available, so that he could gauge market value without seeming like he was desperate to trade him?

How would we know what he needs to be effective when he hasn't been effective yet?

come on man that's just garbage. He definitely showed some effectiveness at the end of the season. We've seen the numbers earlier in this thread about his driving numbers at the end of the year being borderline elite. We've seen that his mid range jump shooting from february to the end of the season was on par with Guys like Kawhi/Durant/George. So he's shown big time potential in terms of driving and in terms of mid range jump shooting. Driving threat + Mid range game = a very solid foundation for a primary scorer.

MJST
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject:

Brandon Ingram liked a comment that said HE was actually going to be the best player on the Lakers next year, after Lonzo's press conference _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk

dao
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Posts: 5572

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:50 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

dao wrote:

tox wrote:

nash wrote:

tox wrote:

GT, can I throw this question back at you? How concerned are you about his low steals/ blocks numbers? And how do you feel about his overall defensive potential?

Tox let me ask you something too, what characteristics to you think are a must for a player become a good defender?

Tayshaun is a perfectly reasonable comparison -- at least what I remember of Tayshaun. I had higher hopes for Ingram defensively a year ago, though.

agreed. But it's way too early to get bent out of shape about his stats. He played his rookie season without an NBA body. He's the same age as the one and done freshmen that were drafted last night. Going forward, he will be a different player athletically.

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