OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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rmtm07
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:48 pm    Post subject:

brandon will be the most improved player next season. book it
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tox
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject:

rmtm07 wrote:
brandon will be the most improved player next season. book it
Has a sophomore ever gotten MIP? Doubt that happens
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:52 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
rmtm07 wrote:
brandon will be the most improved player next season. book it
Has a sophomore ever gotten MIP? Doubt that happens


Looks like Monta, Arenas, Kevin Johnson..... and maybe some others. I'll have to look again later when I have more time. That was a pretty good question though.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
oldschool32 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
I hopped into this thread to defend/protect Ingram by pointing out that Magic was putting unfair expectations on him by saying that he'd be disappointed if Ingram didn't do something that was unprecedented in NBA history, but that quickly turned to me apparently (bleep) on him by people who totally think that's possible.


I'm looking for a more realistic career path than Magic. I'm hoping he can follow Closer to Giannis and Paul George's career arc. If he can emulate that, we have a damn good player. His jumper obviously has to improve considerably(36+% 3fg) for him to become the 23-25 ppg scorer I think he can be.

Year 1: 8-10 ppg
Year 2: 12-14 ppg
Year 3: 16-18 ppg
Year 4: 20+ ppg


I expect to see year 3 numbers on that timeline next year. I just expect the jump to be more pronounced. I think the Ingram we saw the last 3 months of the season was the true Ingram, and that guy was year 2 on that timeline.

I think Ingram entered the league with more skills and discipline than Giannis. Giannis was much more raw clay. Because of Brandon's age, it is tough to really pinpoint a trajectory for him. For example, both Paul George and Kawhi Leonard entered the league a full year older than Brandon did. Kawhi didn't average more than 13 PPG until he turned 23 - or almost four years from Brandon's current age.

Still, all that said, I think Brandon gets there quicker. I think he's very developed skills-wise for his age. Physically, that's another issue.


By the same token, he put up his best numbers while getting 35mpg in a point of the season where they sat veterans and much of the league was playing for next year. The list of guys to put up their biggest numbers of the season in March & April is pretty long for that exact reason.

I see him around 14ppg this year. I expect Lopez, Randle, KCP, Clarkson, & possibly Lonzo to be double figure scorers, with Lopez being our #1 scorer by a decent margin and the others (including Ingram) being pretty closely grouped together, with Lonzo closer to 10ppg than 15ppg.


I think you're discrediting Ingram's confidence after the ASB. He obviously got better during that period of time and he admitted that he wishes he was more confident at the start of the season. It's hard for me to fathom that he is going to take a step back and be the player he was at the start of the season.

I don't think getting 20PPG is out of the realm of possibility for him. Especially with Lonzo's passing and getting these players some easy looks. With Lonzo alone, I can see everybody getting 8 points just from outlet passes.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
Future is bright for BI. I just love his attitude and his effort out there on the floor. He earned a ton of minutes from Luke in his first season because he has the right attitude. He is humble, he loves to play D, he does what the coaching staff tells him to do.

His attitude combined with his eye popping physical attributes are why I feel he will go on and maximize his potential.




I would also like to add that in my opinion what separates BI from the rest of the pack is his gym rat work ethic that the Lakers brass has repeatedly mentioned. It's one thing to have God given abilities but its another to work on your craft as if you do not have those same God given abilities. ALL of the great ones have the same trait. I believe BI work ethic is what will put him over the top year by year.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
oldschool32 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
I hopped into this thread to defend/protect Ingram by pointing out that Magic was putting unfair expectations on him by saying that he'd be disappointed if Ingram didn't do something that was unprecedented in NBA history, but that quickly turned to me apparently (bleep) on him by people who totally think that's possible.


I'm looking for a more realistic career path than Magic. I'm hoping he can follow Closer to Giannis and Paul George's career arc. If he can emulate that, we have a damn good player. His jumper obviously has to improve considerably(36+% 3fg) for him to become the 23-25 ppg scorer I think he can be.

Year 1: 8-10 ppg
Year 2: 12-14 ppg
Year 3: 16-18 ppg
Year 4: 20+ ppg


I expect to see year 3 numbers on that timeline next year. I just expect the jump to be more pronounced. I think the Ingram we saw the last 3 months of the season was the true Ingram, and that guy was year 2 on that timeline.

I think Ingram entered the league with more skills and discipline than Giannis. Giannis was much more raw clay. Because of Brandon's age, it is tough to really pinpoint a trajectory for him. For example, both Paul George and Kawhi Leonard entered the league a full year older than Brandon did. Kawhi didn't average more than 13 PPG until he turned 23 - or almost four years from Brandon's current age.

Still, all that said, I think Brandon gets there quicker. I think he's very developed skills-wise for his age. Physically, that's another issue.


By the same token, he put up his best numbers while getting 35mpg in a point of the season where they sat veterans and much of the league was playing for next year. The list of guys to put up their biggest numbers of the season in March & April is pretty long for that exact reason.

I see him around 14ppg this year. I expect Lopez, Randle, KCP, Clarkson, & possibly Lonzo to be double figure scorers, with Lopez being our #1 scorer by a decent margin and the others (including Ingram) being pretty closely grouped together, with Lonzo closer to 10ppg than 15ppg.

That kind of dismissiveness about his improvement seems like an oversimplification. Does that mean we should never put any stock whatsoever in a player's improvement once it hits March and forward? If not, then what's the criteria? To me, the lenses we interpret it through should be adjusted if we're talking about a younger player, especially a rookie. The fact that Ingram was a completely different player by then compared to earlier in the season was overwhelmingly obvious.

He improved across the board, even in areas that can't be quantified with stats, such as his changed mentality and confidence. Maybe your point would at least have a little more merit to it if he was a vet playing in his contract year or something, but he wasn't. He was a rookie that put together impressive games here and there, but grew up and adjusted once he'd figured the league out.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:21 am    Post subject:

The way you guys talk about Brandon Ingram's March...
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject:

Yea I think Ingram will improve but not anywhere near 20 ppg. I expect bad percentages again at around 15 ppg.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:44 am    Post subject:

defense wrote:
Yea I think Ingram will improve but not anywhere near 20 ppg. I expect bad percentages again at around 15 ppg.


His fg percentage should improve to at least 45% playing alongside The One. He'll probably get 2 easy buckets more than his rookie year. 4/10 vs 6/12 possibly.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:45 am    Post subject:

JayLida wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
Future is bright for BI. I just love his attitude and his effort out there on the floor. He earned a ton of minutes from Luke in his first season because he has the right attitude. He is humble, he loves to play D, he does what the coaching staff tells him to do.

His attitude combined with his eye popping physical attributes are why I feel he will go on and maximize his potential.




I would also like to add that in my opinion what separates BI from the rest of the pack is his gym rat work ethic that the Lakers brass has repeatedly mentioned. It's one thing to have God given abilities but its another to work on your craft as if you do not have those same God given abilities. ALL of the great ones have the same trait. I believe BI work ethic is what will put him over the top year by year.




Lakers News: Magic Johnson Calls Brandon Ingram L.A.’s ‘Hardest
Worker’

By Trevor Lane - 07/24/2017

“The guy only cares about winning and basketball,” Johnson said. “He’s quiet and doesn’t do anything else. He is a very intelligent young man and is our hardest worker.”
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:08 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Judah wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
By the same token, he put up his best numbers while getting 35mpg in a point of the season where they sat veterans and much of the league was playing for next year. The list of guys to put up their biggest numbers of the season in March & April is pretty long for that exact reason.

I see him around 14ppg this year. I expect Lopez, Randle, KCP, Clarkson, & possibly Lonzo to be double figure scorers, with Lopez being our #1 scorer by a decent margin and the others (including Ingram) being pretty closely grouped together, with Lonzo closer to 10ppg than 15ppg.

That kind of dismissiveness about his improvement seems like an oversimplification. Does that mean we should never put any stock whatsoever in a player's improvement once it hits March and forward? If not, then what's the criteria? To me, the lenses we interpret it through should be adjusted if we're talking about a younger player, especially a rookie. The fact that Ingram was a completely different player by then compared to earlier in the season was overwhelmingly obvious.

He improved across the board, even in areas that can't be quantified with stats, such as his changed mentality and confidence. Maybe your point would at least have a little more merit to it if he was a vet playing in his contract year or something, but he wasn't. He was a rookie that put together impressive games here and there, but grew up and adjusted once he'd figured the league out.


Yes, my point was totally that we should never put any stock whatsoever in a player's improvement once it hits March and I'm obviously the one who's oversimplifying here.


....as if my post only had two sentences. I wasn't implying that that's your perspective. It was an honest question of how you evaluate a player's improvement once March hits if it's that easy to dismiss it.

If some Russell hater had said, 'Russell played well in March and April when teams had already started mailing it in' I'd be asking them the same question: Then what's the criteria? Is there any scenario where you'd say it isn't quite that easy to dismiss it? Point is, I wasn't trying to misrepresent you at all. If anything, you misreprenteed me. But whatever *shrug*
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
JayLida wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
Future is bright for BI. I just love his attitude and his effort out there on the floor. He earned a ton of minutes from Luke in his first season because he has the right attitude. He is humble, he loves to play D, he does what the coaching staff tells him to do.

His attitude combined with his eye popping physical attributes are why I feel he will go on and maximize his potential.




I would also like to add that in my opinion what separates BI from the rest of the pack is his gym rat work ethic that the Lakers brass has repeatedly mentioned. It's one thing to have God given abilities but its another to work on your craft as if you do not have those same God given abilities. ALL of the great ones have the same trait. I believe BI work ethic is what will put him over the top year by year.




Lakers News: Magic Johnson Calls Brandon Ingram L.A.’s ‘Hardest
Worker’

By Trevor Lane - 07/24/2017

“The guy only cares about winning and basketball,” Johnson said. “He’s quiet and doesn’t do anything else. He is a very intelligent young man and is our hardest worker.”


Love it!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:25 am    Post subject:

The thing about Ingram's post all-star break numbers vs. his first half was that his 3pt % and FT% were worse. However, his FG% jumped quite a bit and that was mostly due to his improved midrange game and finishing. If he can just improve his FT% to 70 plus and 3 FG% to 33 plus, I can definitely see him scoring 15 plus. That will be the key to his development. Can he shoot the spot up 3 and get to the foul line often?

He would also be the guy I would give the rock to with less than 5 seconds on the shot clock if the offense broke down. It would be Brook but it's harder to setup the big with barely any time on the shot clock.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject:

Judah wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Judah wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
By the same token, he put up his best numbers while getting 35mpg in a point of the season where they sat veterans and much of the league was playing for next year. The list of guys to put up their biggest numbers of the season in March & April is pretty long for that exact reason.

I see him around 14ppg this year. I expect Lopez, Randle, KCP, Clarkson, & possibly Lonzo to be double figure scorers, with Lopez being our #1 scorer by a decent margin and the others (including Ingram) being pretty closely grouped together, with Lonzo closer to 10ppg than 15ppg.

That kind of dismissiveness about his improvement seems like an oversimplification. Does that mean we should never put any stock whatsoever in a player's improvement once it hits March and forward? If not, then what's the criteria? To me, the lenses we interpret it through should be adjusted if we're talking about a younger player, especially a rookie. The fact that Ingram was a completely different player by then compared to earlier in the season was overwhelmingly obvious.

He improved across the board, even in areas that can't be quantified with stats, such as his changed mentality and confidence. Maybe your point would at least have a little more merit to it if he was a vet playing in his contract year or something, but he wasn't. He was a rookie that put together impressive games here and there, but grew up and adjusted once he'd figured the league out.


Yes, my point was totally that we should never put any stock whatsoever in a player's improvement once it hits March and I'm obviously the one who's oversimplifying here.


....as if my post only had two sentences. I wasn't implying that that's your perspective. It was an honest question of how you evaluate a player's improvement once March hits if it's that easy to dismiss it.

If some Russell hater had said, 'Russell played well in March and April when teams had already started mailing it in' I'd be asking them the same question: Then what's the criteria? Is there any scenario where you'd say it isn't quite that easy to dismiss it? Point is, I wasn't trying to misrepresent you at all. If anything, you misreprenteed me. But whatever *shrug*


It's a combination of both but we were a terrible team last year and he played great when the games were meaningless and not very good at all while we were competitive early in the season. We saw Clarkson do that and hasn't improved since. Ingram is clearly better than Clarkson, but some skepticism is very reasonable especially when the expectation is to become a 20ppg scorer and likely our number 1 option. I hope he becomes a 20ppg scorer but it doesn't seem very likely at all at this point.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject:

Yes, the "put up numbers on a bad team" idea is fresh and real in other player threads, but taboo here. #bias
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
The way you guys talk about Brandon Ingram's March...


Technically he started trending upwards in most statistical categories after December, then dipping in April. It wasn't stellar or anything, but he had some steady improvement in that timeframe with some hiccups in between. I was super frustrated with him last year but he did improve more than just in March
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject:

justsomelakerfan wrote:
ocho wrote:
The way you guys talk about Brandon Ingram's March...


Technically he started trending upwards in most statistical categories after December, then dipping in April. It wasn't stellar or anything, but he had some steady improvement in that timeframe with some hiccups in between. I was super frustrated with him last year but he did improve more than just in March


Oh I agree with you. He got better and played with more confidence. It was great to see. But some people talk about Brandon's March like it was a coming out party for a HOFer. Let's keep it in perspective.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject:

oldschool32 wrote:
tox wrote:
rmtm07 wrote:
brandon will be the most improved player next season. book it
Has a sophomore ever gotten MIP? Doubt that happens


Looks like Monta, Arenas, Kevin Johnson..... and maybe some others. I'll have to look again later when I have more time. That was a pretty good question though.

Thanks for the correction. It's not like Monta's 2nd year stats are out of reach.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
oldschool32 wrote:
tox wrote:
rmtm07 wrote:
brandon will be the most improved player next season. book it
Has a sophomore ever gotten MIP? Doubt that happens


Looks like Monta, Arenas, Kevin Johnson..... and maybe some others. I'll have to look again later when I have more time. That was a pretty good question though.


Thanks for the correction. It's not like Monta's 2nd year stats are out of reach.


Hmmm, makes you wonder what Brandon would have to average to get there. Here are the differences of those players from year 1 to year 2:

Ellis (Year 1): 18.1 Min., 6.8 PPG (41.5%), 2.1 RPG, 1.6 APG
Ellis (Year 2): 34.3 Min., 16.5 PPG (47.5%), 3.2 RPG, 4.1 APG

Arenas (Year 1): 24.6 Min., 10.9 PPG (45.3%), 2.8 RPG, 3.7 APG
Arenas (Year 2): 35.0 Min., 18.3 PPG (43.1%), 4.7 RPG, 6.3 APG

K. Johnson (Year 1): 24.0 Min., 9.2 PPG (46.1%), 2.4 RPG, 5.5 APG
K. Johnson (Year 2): 39.2 Min., 20.4 PPG (50.5%), 4.2 RPG, 12.2 APG

-----------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, KJ... damn.

Second, Ingram averaged 28.8 min., 9.4 PPG (40.2%), 4.0 RPG, 2.1 APG last year. I think he averages something like 32.0 min., 16.0 (45.0%), 5.0 RPG, 3.0 APG next year. I don't think that's enough to get most improved. If he somehow were to average 20+PPG per year? Sure. But that's pretty unlikely.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
tox wrote:
oldschool32 wrote:
tox wrote:
rmtm07 wrote:
brandon will be the most improved player next season. book it
Has a sophomore ever gotten MIP? Doubt that happens


Looks like Monta, Arenas, Kevin Johnson..... and maybe some others. I'll have to look again later when I have more time. That was a pretty good question though.


Thanks for the correction. It's not like Monta's 2nd year stats are out of reach.


Hmmm, makes you wonder what Brandon would have to average to get there. Here are the differences of those players from year 1 to year 2:

Ellis (Year 1): 18.1 Min., 6.8 PPG (41.5%), 2.1 RPG, 1.6 APG
Ellis (Year 2): 34.3 Min., 16.5 PPG (47.5%), 3.2 RPG, 4.1 APG

Arenas (Year 1): 24.6 Min., 10.9 PPG (45.3%), 2.8 RPG, 3.7 APG
Arenas (Year 2): 35.0 Min., 18.3 PPG (43.1%), 4.7 RPG, 6.3 APG

K. Johnson (Year 1): 24.0 Min., 9.2 PPG (46.1%), 2.4 RPG, 5.5 APG
K. Johnson (Year 2): 39.2 Min., 20.4 PPG (50.5%), 4.2 RPG, 12.2 APG

-----------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, KJ... damn.

Second, Ingram averaged 28.8 min., 9.4 PPG (40.2%), 4.0 RPG, 2.1 APG last year. I think he averages something like 32.0 min., 16.0 (45.0%), 5.0 RPG, 3.0 APG next year. I don't think that's enough to get most improved. If he somehow were to average 20+PPG per year? Sure. But that's pretty unlikely.


I think MIP will be one of these guys

Rodney Hood
DLo
BI
Myles Turner
Devin Booker
Julius Randle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
tox wrote:
oldschool32 wrote:
tox wrote:
rmtm07 wrote:
brandon will be the most improved player next season. book it
Has a sophomore ever gotten MIP? Doubt that happens


Looks like Monta, Arenas, Kevin Johnson..... and maybe some others. I'll have to look again later when I have more time. That was a pretty good question though.


Thanks for the correction. It's not like Monta's 2nd year stats are out of reach.


Hmmm, makes you wonder what Brandon would have to average to get there. Here are the differences of those players from year 1 to year 2:

Ellis (Year 1): 18.1 Min., 6.8 PPG (41.5%), 2.1 RPG, 1.6 APG
Ellis (Year 2): 34.3 Min., 16.5 PPG (47.5%), 3.2 RPG, 4.1 APG

Arenas (Year 1): 24.6 Min., 10.9 PPG (45.3%), 2.8 RPG, 3.7 APG
Arenas (Year 2): 35.0 Min., 18.3 PPG (43.1%), 4.7 RPG, 6.3 APG

K. Johnson (Year 1): 24.0 Min., 9.2 PPG (46.1%), 2.4 RPG, 5.5 APG
K. Johnson (Year 2): 39.2 Min., 20.4 PPG (50.5%), 4.2 RPG, 12.2 APG

-----------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, KJ... damn.

Second, Ingram averaged 28.8 min., 9.4 PPG (40.2%), 4.0 RPG, 2.1 APG last year. I think he averages something like 32.0 min., 16.0 (45.0%), 5.0 RPG, 3.0 APG next year. I don't think that's enough to get most improved. If he somehow were to average 20+PPG per year? Sure. But that's pretty unlikely.


Look at the differences in minutes. Brandon played 28.8 minutes last season. What will he play this season 32ish? I think his improvement will come more gradually.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Yes, the "put up numbers on a bad team" idea is fresh and real in other player threads, but taboo here. #bias


I usually try not to apply the "good numbers on a bad team" until a player has already been in the league for 3 seasons. Most of these guys are drafted on a trash team, and it's hard to make an impact right off the bat.

But if your a 4th year player, putting up insane numbers and your team hasn't won more then 30 games? Then maybe you're not as good as the numbers say
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
tox wrote:
oldschool32 wrote:
tox wrote:
rmtm07 wrote:
brandon will be the most improved player next season. book it
Has a sophomore ever gotten MIP? Doubt that happens


Looks like Monta, Arenas, Kevin Johnson..... and maybe some others. I'll have to look again later when I have more time. That was a pretty good question though.


Thanks for the correction. It's not like Monta's 2nd year stats are out of reach.


Hmmm, makes you wonder what Brandon would have to average to get there. Here are the differences of those players from year 1 to year 2:

Ellis (Year 1): 18.1 Min., 6.8 PPG (41.5%), 2.1 RPG, 1.6 APG
Ellis (Year 2): 34.3 Min., 16.5 PPG (47.5%), 3.2 RPG, 4.1 APG

Arenas (Year 1): 24.6 Min., 10.9 PPG (45.3%), 2.8 RPG, 3.7 APG
Arenas (Year 2): 35.0 Min., 18.3 PPG (43.1%), 4.7 RPG, 6.3 APG

K. Johnson (Year 1): 24.0 Min., 9.2 PPG (46.1%), 2.4 RPG, 5.5 APG
K. Johnson (Year 2): 39.2 Min., 20.4 PPG (50.5%), 4.2 RPG, 12.2 APG

-----------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, KJ... damn.

Second, Ingram averaged 28.8 min., 9.4 PPG (40.2%), 4.0 RPG, 2.1 APG last year. I think he averages something like 32.0 min., 16.0 (45.0%), 5.0 RPG, 3.0 APG next year. I don't think that's enough to get most improved. If he somehow were to average 20+PPG per year? Sure. But that's pretty unlikely.


I think MIP will be one of these guys

Rodney Hood
DLo
BI
Myles Turner
Devin Booker
Julius Randle

I'd put money on Rodney Hood.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject:

If Ingram plays 35-37 MPG then I can see him getting close to 20ppg. Probably closer to 17ppg. I think he can get MIP if he ends the season at:

17 ppg/6 rpg/3 apg on 45/34/70 shooting
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Andre2K
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 12199

PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject:

oldschool32 wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
JayLida wrote:
VicXLakers wrote:
Dr. Funkbot wrote:
Future is bright for BI. I just love his attitude and his effort out there on the floor. He earned a ton of minutes from Luke in his first season because he has the right attitude. He is humble, he loves to play D, he does what the coaching staff tells him to do.

His attitude combined with his eye popping physical attributes are why I feel he will go on and maximize his potential.




I would also like to add that in my opinion what separates BI from the rest of the pack is his gym rat work ethic that the Lakers brass has repeatedly mentioned. It's one thing to have God given abilities but its another to work on your craft as if you do not have those same God given abilities. ALL of the great ones have the same trait. I believe BI work ethic is what will put him over the top year by year.




Lakers News: Magic Johnson Calls Brandon Ingram L.A.’s ‘Hardest
Worker’

By Trevor Lane - 07/24/2017

“The guy only cares about winning and basketball,” Johnson said. “He’s quiet and doesn’t do anything else. He is a very intelligent young man and is our hardest worker.”


Love it!


😍
_________________
My Dream Starting 5 next Season

Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon

Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc
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