OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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bballchinaski
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:02 am    Post subject:

when ingram was balling all i heard was crickets and a begrudging nice word here and there, now he sucks for two games and hes a bust already. but "stop being hard on young guys i like like ball and russell" they need time. nothing hipocritical at all
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject:

bballchinaski wrote:
when ingram was balling all i heard was crickets and a begrudging nice word here and there, now he sucks for two games and hes a bust already. but "stop being hard on young guys i like like ball and russell" they need time. nothing hipocritical at all


For a poster who says other posters need to move on from DLO, you talk about DLO quite a lot. Why don't you just let it go?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:14 am    Post subject:

Dude GT has an opinion I dont even agree with him on the DLO trade but he usually backs his opinion with a good argument.

He's not a believer in BI but if BI started to performing well he would root for him too. Even last year he waited until BI went on a hot streak to release a video on him to show all of his positives and its not the only topic he focuses on. Give him a break
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject:

bballchinaski wrote:
i dont care what the numbers say but are you implying that ball has been having a much better season than ingram? are you implying d'angelo isnt a sieve on defense? cause if the numbers tell you that they re a bunch of bs. like you pretending you dont have a bias against ingram


Yes, Lonzo is having a better season than Ingram, despite shooting the ball historically poorly and having 2,300 fewer minutes of NBA experience. He's rebounding better than Ingram, he's passing better than Ingram, he's defending better than Ingram, his RPM is better than Ingram, and his BPM is better than Ingram. The one thing that Ingram is better at than Ball is scoring, and he isn't remotely close to being even an average player at that.

Lonzo's already one of the better passers, rebounders, and defenders in the league at his position. What does Ingram do at even an average level for a wing?

Yes, Russell has been a sieve defensively, especially this season, but that has literally nothing to do with this. It's you who apparently can't let it go. And it's (bleep) hilarious to see someone claim that they don't care about the objective metrics while simultaneously accusing someone else of bias. It's definitely not YOU who are biased in favor of Ingram.
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Last edited by GoldenThroat on Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:31 am    Post subject:

bigkobe81 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Age 20 season

BPM

Kawhi.....................+4.3
Giannis...................+0.5
Paul George............+0.0
Average Player.........+0.0
Replacement Level....-2.0
Brandon Ingram.......-2.3

RPM

Giannis.................+0.80
Average Player.......+0.00
Brandon Ingram.....-.2.32

*RPM wasn't available for Kawhi & George at that time.

TS%

Kawhi...................57.2%
Average Player.......55.3%
Giannis.................55.2%
Paul George...........54.2%
Brandon Ingram.....49.9%

20 year old Fowards in their 2nd year, by BPM: link

I guess analytics can't get over the Russell trade either.


We are less than 15 games into the season. Small sample size vs 82 games, you make the call


We have a 93 game sample size on Ingram and he hasn't tracked anywhere close to those guys over the course of it. And in George & Kawhi's case, Ingram has nearly 2,300 minutes of experience on them relative to their 20 year old seasons, when they were NBA rookies.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:33 am    Post subject:

bballchinaski wrote:
thats just a joke. this dude is a pratical joker when it cones to bi. you can see it all the time on his twitter account. i mean, i like his play analysis but the opinions suck and id do well without them. all summer lakers twitter been crying about d'angelo freakin russell like he is prime mj and bashing ingram like he is bob sacre, gimme a break


"His opinions suck and I'd do well without them" - Guy who follows me on multiple platforms
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bballchinaski
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
bballchinaski wrote:
i dont care what the numbers say but are you implying that ball has been having a much better season than ingram? are you implying d'angelo isnt a sieve on defense? cause if the numbers tell you that they re a bunch of bs. like you pretending you dont have a bias against ingram


Yes, Lonzo is having a better season than Ingram, despite shooting the ball historically poorly and having 2,300 fewer minutes of NBA experience. He's rebounding better than Ingram, he's passing better than Ingram, he's defending better than Ingram, his RPM is better than Ingram, and his BPM is better than Ingram. The one thing that Ingram is better at than Ball is scoring, and he isn't remotely close to being even an average player at that.

Lonzo's already one of the better passers, rebounders, and defenders in the league at his position. What does Ingram do at even an average level for a wing?

Yes, Russell has been a sieve defensively, especially this season, but that has literally nothing to do with this. It's you who apparently can't let it go. And it's (bleep) hilarious to see someone claim that they don't care about the objective metrics while simultaneously accusing me of bias.


ahah, no way he is defending better than ingram, stop it. I might have a bias against the numbers, but i havent against the players. I love lonzo and i know he will be a great player, but you know what? Ingram is going to be too, probably better than him, to me, ingram is clearly the lakers guy with the higher ceiling, and he shown the flashes. You wasn't coming here suggesting trades after the grizzlies game, were you?

i care with numbers but only to a point. care to comment about determining all about bi's potential based on the first 15 games of his second season in the nba? the dude just turned twenty a month earlier than lonzo.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:38 am    Post subject:

Sigh.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am    Post subject:

And the reality is that Ingram's going to have more great games, more bad ones, and a lot in between. But his averages are what they are and we're about 1/6th through the season. It's not a huge sample, but it's not a small one at this point either.

His great games are not 29/12/9 or 18/13/12/3/3 explosions that counteract nights like his last 3 games. That's why the numbers say what they say.
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bballchinaski
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:45 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
bballchinaski wrote:
thats just a joke. this dude is a pratical joker when it cones to bi. you can see it all the time on his twitter account. i mean, i like his play analysis but the opinions suck and id do well without them. all summer lakers twitter been crying about d'angelo freakin russell like he is prime mj and bashing ingram like he is bob sacre, gimme a break


"His opinions suck and I'd do well without them" - Guy who follows me on multiple platforms


i follow you for the play analysis and for nothing more, dont care for your opinions. just came here to call you out on being unfair in your ingram analysis, nothing less, nothing more
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:50 am    Post subject:

bballchinaski wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
bballchinaski wrote:
thats just a joke. this dude is a pratical joker when it cones to bi. you can see it all the time on his twitter account. i mean, i like his play analysis but the opinions suck and id do well without them. all summer lakers twitter been crying about d'angelo freakin russell like he is prime mj and bashing ingram like he is bob sacre, gimme a break


"His opinions suck and I'd do well without them" - Guy who follows me on multiple platforms


i follow you for the play analysis and for nothing more, dont care for your opinions. just came here to call you out on being unfair in your ingram analysis, nothing less, nothing more


Weird how I can produce quality play analysis (whatever that is) with such terrible player analysis.

Weird how the objective data paints a similarly "unfair" portrait too.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject:

The
Right
Objective
Lakers
Love.
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bballchinaski
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:03 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
And the reality is that Ingram's going to have more great games, more bad ones, and a lot in between. But his averages are what they are and we're about 1/6th through the season. It's not a huge sample, but it's not a small one at this point either.

His great games are not 29/12/9 or 18/13/12/3/3 explosions that counteract nights like his last 3 games. That's why the numbers say what they say.


and...? i mean, in a forum full if kobe fans one would expect most to know that numbers arent the be all, end all. ingram just isnt as bad as the numbers say. i watch all lakers games,i dont need approval from numbers to tell me who is good and whos not

randle ia good when he plays defense and doesnt try to shoot, he has been really good rolling out the pick and roll

jc spot ups have been money this year, always been a good driver, dribbles too much, has tunel vision, only likes to play in two man games, lots of screening

kuzma is good at quick moves off the dribble and midrange, great motor but has fallen a bit in the last few games.

bball aint as complicated to analysis.it aint rocket science


Last edited by bballchinaski on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject:

Just went to this dude's Twitter profile and his most recent tweet is a RT of one of my opinions.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:07 am    Post subject:

Quote:
bball aint as complicated ti analysis.it aint rocket science


Except all the top teams seem to differ. Warriors, Celtics, Spurs, ROCKETS, etc., all successful and heavy users of things like "analytics" and "[bball] rocket science."
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:08 am    Post subject:

deleted

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bballchinaski
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:11 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Just went to this dude's Twitter profile and his most recent tweet is a RT of one of my opinions.


cause i dont have a bias against you, just srtongly disagree in your acession of ingram, and yes i dont really care about your opinion on stuff, sometimes i agree, sometimes i dont

care to share what the tweet was? it was a shot at balls naysayers, exactly what im doing here, so at least im coherent, i have no favorites in this team
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:14 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
bigkobe81 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Age 20 season

BPM

Kawhi.....................+4.3
Giannis...................+0.5
Paul George............+0.0
Average Player.........+0.0
Replacement Level....-2.0
Brandon Ingram.......-2.3

RPM

Giannis.................+0.80
Average Player.......+0.00
Brandon Ingram.....-.2.32

*RPM wasn't available for Kawhi & George at that time.

TS%

Kawhi...................57.2%
Average Player.......55.3%
Giannis.................55.2%
Paul George...........54.2%
Brandon Ingram.....49.9%

20 year old Fowards in their 2nd year, by BPM: link

I guess analytics can't get over the Russell trade either.


We are less than 15 games into the season. Small sample size vs 82 games, you make the call


We have a 93 game sample size on Ingram and he hasn't tracked anywhere close to those guys over the course of it. And in George & Kawhi's case, Ingram has nearly 2,300 minutes of experience on them relative to their 20 year old seasons, when they were NBA rookies.


We drafted a poor man's Tayshaun Prince. Not a terrible player, just not worthy of the 2nd pick. To think we were one spot away from Ben Simmons. And absolutely, positively not untouchable.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:44 am    Post subject:

mods clean this up...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject:

I think gut feeling, Ingram will be fine. Analytics probably would also say that many rookies to first year players were bad. There is evidence of a lot of players that were probably bad. Hell, analytics says Lopez is our best guy when it comes to RPM. But, watch the game and he is okay.

That's why having a good coach that looks at numbers and watches the way players are playing is important. Don't always go by analytics.

It takes time, i remember people saying derozan was a bust, and all these others that were late bloomers. Some players get it right away. Others takes time. For derozan, i even thought he would be a bust. Cause he wasn't producing as a high pick. But now he is.

For ingram, there are improvements as he can drive it in. He can defend, seems he tends to be either too passive or too aggressive. But, he puts the work in and he will get it. What he really needed was Kobe to help him. Teach him balance, squaring up, footwork. That's where i think kobe could have helped him.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject:

KB824MJ wrote:
I think gut feeling, Ingram will be fine. Analytics probably would also say that many rookies to first year players were bad. There is evidence of a lot of players that were probably bad. Hell, analytics says Lopez is our best guy when it comes to RPM. But, watch the game and he is okay.

That's why having a good coach that looks at numbers and watches the way players are playing is important. Don't always go by analytics.

It takes time, i remember people saying derozan was a bust, and all these others that were late bloomers. Some players get it right away. Others takes time. For derozan, i even thought he would be a bust. Cause he wasn't producing as a high pick. But now he is.

For ingram, there are improvements as he can drive it in. He can defend, seems he tends to be either too passive or too aggressive. But, he puts the work in and he will get it. What he really needed was Kobe to help him. Teach him balance, squaring up, footwork. That's where i think kobe could have helped him.


I do watch how the players are playing.

I have no problem with the argument that Ingram might be very good someday, although the reality is that he is not on par with many of the guys that he's often compared to at the same age. Saying that Ingram is going to be good at 25 won't get too much argument from me.

But who he is in July 2018 is going to be very important, especially if we sign LeBron, and that isn't that far away. This Front Office is going to try their best to win a title NEXT YEAR, which I know sounds totally crazy, but that's what they're going to try to do. What Ingram could be by the 2022-23 season doesn't have a whole lot to do with that.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject:

bballchinaski wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Just went to this dude's Twitter profile and his most recent tweet is a RT of one of my opinions.


cause i dont have a bias against you, just srtongly disagree in your acession of ingram, and yes i dont really care about your opinion on stuff, sometimes i agree, sometimes i dont

care to share what the tweet was? it was a shot at balls naysayers, exactly what im doing here, so at least im coherent, i have no favorites in this team


Here's an idea of three: stop going to his site and learning a bit of jargon about the game you don't know as much as be does about, and then using that knowledge to feel even better about your random "analysis" such that you disparage the expertise that brought you the knowledge you enjoy receiving either because it (and data, which is obviously bunk if it doesn't are with you) doesn't reinforce your perfect takes, or because it makes you feel like people will respect your perfect takes more if you lash out at him online and show him and us how tough and knowledeable and resistant to reality you are, or both.

Or, you could politely disagree on ingram, admit you don't really have anything but your own emotions and analysis you cant quantify for your point of view on that (which btw is ok, and doesn't even preclude you from being right!), and be a nice guy to a dude who knows a ton more about the game than you do, and stop trying to impress us here with how big a guy you are not.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
bballchinaski wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Just went to this dude's Twitter profile and his most recent tweet is a RT of one of my opinions.


cause i dont have a bias against you, just srtongly disagree in your acession of ingram, and yes i dont really care about your opinion on stuff, sometimes i agree, sometimes i dont

care to share what the tweet was? it was a shot at balls naysayers, exactly what im doing here, so at least im coherent, i have no favorites in this team


Here's an idea of three: stop going to his site and learning a bit of jargon about the game you don't know as much as be does about, and then using that knowledge to feel even better about your random "analysis" such that you disparage the expertise that brought you the knowledge you enjoy receiving either because it (and data, which is obviously bunk if it doesn't are with you) doesn't reinforce your perfect takes, or because it makes you feel like people will respect your perfect takes more if you lash out at him online and show him and us how tough and knowledeable and resistant to reality you are, or both.

Or, you could politely disagree on ingram, admit you don't really have anything but your own emotions and analysis you cant quantify for your point of view on that (which btw is ok, and doesn't even preclude you from being right!), and be a nice guy to a dude who knows a ton more about the game than you do, and stop trying to impress us here with how big a guy you are not.


what a big man you are to reply to a user after he has been banned
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject:

The following is a somewhat flawed analysis that attempts to use a player's GameScore over his first 10 games as a predictor for stardom or bustability for lottery picks (based on Win Shares after his first four seasons) - it looks specifically at Fultz's poor start (really due to injury), and tries to extrapolate from there:

How to Identify an NBA Draft Bust in Just 10 Games
Quote:
For the whole group of rookies from 1985 to 2013—not just top-10 picks—the correlation between a player’s cumulative first-10 game score and his total win shares after four years is .63, on a scale in which zero represents no connection and 1 a perfect relationship. But we would expect that relationship to be pretty strong, because widening the player pool past top-10 picks accounts for fringe second-rounders and undrafted rookies who paired a silent first 10 games with a quiet career.

What is unexpected is that the relationship remains nearly as strong when restricting the sample to just top-10 picks, who are theoretically all on equal footing in their team’s future plans and in a similar place based on talent. For just top-10 picks, the correlation between game score after 10 games and win shares after four years is .58. There are exceptions, but the basic trend generally holds: The worse a player’s first 10 games, the less chance he has of becoming even a productive player, let alone the star his draft position would suggest.


Here's how current and recent notable top-10 draft picks have performed according to this 10-game metric:
Quote:

Current rookies:
Simmons 16.48
Lauri 11.68
Tatum 11.02
Fox 8.05
Smith Jr 7.72
Ball 7.36
Josh Jackson 5.35
Isaac 4.88
OG 4.62
Ntilikina 3.93
Fultz 2.41

Past Players of interest:
Jennings 17.3
CP3 14.59
Towns 12.5
Okafor 11.08
Durant 10.34
Rubio 10.14
Porzingis 8.38
Love 7.26
Curry 7.15
Wes Johnson 6.49
DLo 6.32
Cousins 6.08
Wiggins 5.3
Dunn 5.09
Ingram 4.68
Gordon 4.66
Stauskas 0.97

Link: The Ringer

This kind of analysis is much better for determining likely busts early on, and certainly has its flaws since GameScore only measures box score data (as noted in the article), which leads to early outliers like empty stats king Okafor and Brandon "55" Jennings, and can favor more physically ready top rookies like Simmons and Griffin. But it's fun to look at how a snapshot of a rookie's performances can correlate with a young player's early career success, and should help teams weed out the Nik Stauskases of the draft right quick.


Last edited by Baron Von Humongous on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject:

^ I also wish they had posted a spreadsheet for all past top-10 rookies, and had identified career outliers.
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