OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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mookielala
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:18 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
My point is that people who (rightfully, at times) put stock in advanced stats, numbers, etc., have a subjective bias towards that way of evaluating everything. In the last election, for instance, Nate Silver and every other advanced analytic type said there was less than 1% chance Clinton would lose. That's an example of letting a subjective bias/preference for that way of thinking about reality deceive one into certainty, a belief that what you glean from the numbers is objective or necessarily predictive.

OTOH, with BI, there are plenty of people who have played/watched the game all their lives who think he is a very promising offensive player, above average in many ways. But he's a work in progress. To say is objectively not good at anything completely repudiates this opinion. That's not to say the stats don't indicate to me that he needs to work on his game to become a better offensive player, it's that the things he can do indicate that he could be a very special offensive player. All those drives he made on Gasol, for instance. That points to something special.

My beef with "objectivity" is a larger issue/peeve that I've encountered in law, politics, economics, etc. I only bring it up here because you mentioned it, BI is my favorite player on the team, and I don't agree that he is not objectively good at anything offensively. I think it's pretty clear watching him that he is good at a lot, and has a lot of room to grow into something special.


-538 had Trump at having a 27% chance of winning.

-An election model is predictive.

-The stats that I post are not predictive, although they can have predictive qualities. They evaluate events that have already occurred, in totality. They are not analogous to predictive models.

-You don't get to make the argument that I'm picking and choosing when I'm asking you to choose the objective data.

-If you feel the need to get into semantics, yes...I'm sure he's great at driving to the right on a Thursday when his opponent had pizza for lunch or something like that, but in terms of the broad components that comprise offensive basketball, he hasn't been good at any of them.


It does come down to semantics. What you or anyone calls "objectively good at anything." From my perspective, it's obvious that he is good at a lot of things, needs to improve, and is improving. If he were objectively subpar as a player at everything in some total sense, we might as well give up on him now. But I don't think that is what anyone is suggesting. the kid has a lot of tools and could develop into a very special player. In that sense, he is, I think most people agree, subjectively, offensively good, no matter what he did last year or how he stacks up statistically for the last 17 games. But it mostly comes down to what either you or I mean by objective. And that isn't worth wasting our energy on.

In any case, I think your videos are great.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:39 am    Post subject:

some people watch too many movies...
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Artest4Three
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:25 am    Post subject:

Any chance we can hire Dirk's shooting coach and help him refine BI's jump shot? They look very similar:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/4hxzys.jpg


Last edited by Artest4Three on Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:41 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:


Lonzo's shooting 26% from mid, Ingram's shooting 25.5% from mid.


According to the link you provided, Ingram is shooting 28.2% from mid.

(16+4)/(45+26) = 28.2%
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:43 am    Post subject:

Artest4Three wrote:
Any chance we can hire Dirk's shooting coach and help him refine BI's jump shot? They look very similar:

oi66.tinypic.com/4hxzys.jpg


His shot has already been reworked.. This is why he's no longer shooting with the same proficiency from mid-range. Takes time to get acclimated to an overhauled shot while in game.

I don't think we'll know until the end of the season if whether or not what they've done to his shot works.

I said before the season started that people shouldn't expect him to shoot well this season. At least at the beginning of it.

I would like to know how much time these guys actually spend putting shots up during practice. Maybe GT knows..

I do a lot of defending in here for Ingram, but there's no excuse for having a lousy J as an NBA player. When I thought I might try to be a baller lol.. I made sure my J was money.. If you have to take 1000 shots a day.. do it.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:12 am    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Artest4Three wrote:
Any chance we can hire Dirk's shooting coach and help him refine BI's jump shot? They look very similar:

oi66.tinypic.com/4hxzys.jpg


His shot has already been reworked.. This is why he's no longer shooting with the same proficiency from mid-range. Takes time to get acclimated to an overhauled shot while in game.

I don't think we'll know until the end of the season if whether or not what they've done to his shot works.

I said before the season started that people shouldn't expect him to shoot well this season. At least at the beginning of it.

I would like to know how much time these guys actually spend putting shots up during practice. Maybe GT knows..

I do a lot of defending in here for Ingram, but there's no excuse for having a lousy J as an NBA player. When I thought I might try to be a baller lol.. I made sure my J was money.. If you have to take 1000 shots a day.. do it.


Most NBA players get a good amount of shots up, whether at team practice or on their own time. It really is about *what your working on*, more so than the small variable of how much you can work on it - they all work on their shots a lot. They're pro's, they wana be great, they love the game, they've been working hard with trainers since they were 14... hard work is 2nd nature to them
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:23 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
mookielala wrote:
Not to get too philosophical, but that is subjective statement based on your definition of "objective." Stats are facts, but the ones you focus on or their meaning, that is a subjective process.


I am open to hearing any objective subset of data on the offensive end where he's good.

-3.2 OBPM (0.0 is the average player)
-1.99 ORPM (0.00 is the average player)
11.5 PER (I never use PER because I think it's a bad stat, but for the sake of not selecting, here it is. Average player is 15.0)
-0.1 Offensive Win Shares (not a huge fan of OWS either)
50.7 TS% (55.3% is the average player)
11.2 AST% (IDK what the average player is, but this is 7th on the Lakers)

You're welcome to focus on other ones and their meaning to paint the case that he's been good on the offensive end, because I'm not aware of any.


To be fair, for as much as you see Ingram in the pick and roll, he really doesn't see the ball that often. He will have 1-2 games where we use him heavily for an entire half but then he will go an entire second half not getting to touch the ball. Then he will go two games where he's relegated to standing in the corners watching Zo,KCP, and JC run P&R all day long which as MJST noted isn't an ideal spot for Ingram to be anyways.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:32 am    Post subject:

As a matter of fact, they locked Ingram out of he gym this summer because he was doing too much work..
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:33 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Artest4Three wrote:
Any chance we can hire Dirk's shooting coach and help him refine BI's jump shot? They look very similar:

oi66.tinypic.com/4hxzys.jpg


His shot has already been reworked.. This is why he's no longer shooting with the same proficiency from mid-range. Takes time to get acclimated to an overhauled shot while in game.

I don't think we'll know until the end of the season if whether or not what they've done to his shot works.

I said before the season started that people shouldn't expect him to shoot well this season. At least at the beginning of it.

I would like to know how much time these guys actually spend putting shots up during practice. Maybe GT knows..

I do a lot of defending in here for Ingram, but there's no excuse for having a lousy J as an NBA player. When I thought I might try to be a baller lol.. I made sure my J was money.. If you have to take 1000 shots a day.. do it.


Most NBA players get a good amount of shots up, whether at team practice or on their own time. It really is about *what your working on*, more so than the small variable of how much you can work on it - they all work on their shots a lot. They're pro's, they wana be great, they love the game, they've been working hard with trainers since they were 14... hard work is 2nd nature to them


Of course they work hard.. that's apparent. Not sure how my post led you to believe I was communicating that they don't. And I don't agree that how much you work on it is a small variable.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:35 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
As a matter of fact, they locked Ingram out of he gym this summer because he was doing too much work..


We're all aware of that.. It's been reported on quite a bit.. Maybe you should read my post again for clarity.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Artest4Three wrote:
Any chance we can hire Dirk's shooting coach and help him refine BI's jump shot? They look very similar:

oi66.tinypic.com/4hxzys.jpg


His shot has already been reworked.. This is why he's no longer shooting with the same proficiency from mid-range. Takes time to get acclimated to an overhauled shot while in game.

I don't think we'll know until the end of the season if whether or not what they've done to his shot works.

I said before the season started that people shouldn't expect him to shoot well this season. At least at the beginning of it.

I would like to know how much time these guys actually spend putting shots up during practice. Maybe GT knows..

I do a lot of defending in here for Ingram, but there's no excuse for having a lousy J as an NBA player. When I thought I might try to be a baller lol.. I made sure my J was money.. If you have to take 1000 shots a day.. do it.


Most NBA players get a good amount of shots up, whether at team practice or on their own time. It really is about *what your working on*, more so than the small variable of how much you can work on it - they all work on their shots a lot. They're pro's, they wana be great, they love the game, they've been working hard with trainers since they were 14... hard work is 2nd nature to them


Of course they work hard.. that's apparent. Not sure how my post led you to believe I was communicating that they don't. And I don't agree that how much you work on it is a small variable.


By small variable I mean, I believe they healthily or realistically could get an extra hour in the gym - that's my opinion of how much more work they could put in
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Artest4Three wrote:
Any chance we can hire Dirk's shooting coach and help him refine BI's jump shot? They look very similar:

oi66.tinypic.com/4hxzys.jpg


His shot has already been reworked.. This is why he's no longer shooting with the same proficiency from mid-range. Takes time to get acclimated to an overhauled shot while in game.

I don't think we'll know until the end of the season if whether or not what they've done to his shot works.

I said before the season started that people shouldn't expect him to shoot well this season. At least at the beginning of it.

I would like to know how much time these guys actually spend putting shots up during practice. Maybe GT knows..

I do a lot of defending in here for Ingram, but there's no excuse for having a lousy J as an NBA player. When I thought I might try to be a baller lol.. I made sure my J was money.. If you have to take 1000 shots a day.. do it.


Most NBA players get a good amount of shots up, whether at team practice or on their own time. It really is about *what your working on*, more so than the small variable of how much you can work on it - they all work on their shots a lot. They're pro's, they wana be great, they love the game, they've been working hard with trainers since they were 14... hard work is 2nd nature to them


Of course they work hard.. that's apparent. Not sure how my post led you to believe I was communicating that they don't. And I don't agree that how much you work on it is a small variable.


By small variable I mean, I believe they healthily or realistically could get an extra hour in the gym - that's my opinion of how much more work they could put in


ok
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:49 am    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Artest4Three wrote:
Any chance we can hire Dirk's shooting coach and help him refine BI's jump shot? They look very similar:

oi66.tinypic.com/4hxzys.jpg


His shot has already been reworked.. This is why he's no longer shooting with the same proficiency from mid-range. Takes time to get acclimated to an overhauled shot while in game.

I don't think we'll know until the end of the season if whether or not what they've done to his shot works.

I said before the season started that people shouldn't expect him to shoot well this season. At least at the beginning of it.

I would like to know how much time these guys actually spend putting shots up during practice. Maybe GT knows..

I do a lot of defending in here for Ingram, but there's no excuse for having a lousy J as an NBA player. When I thought I might try to be a baller lol.. I made sure my J was money.. If you have to take 1000 shots a day.. do it.


Most NBA players get a good amount of shots up, whether at team practice or on their own time. It really is about *what your working on*, more so than the small variable of how much you can work on it - they all work on their shots a lot. They're pro's, they wana be great, they love the game, they've been working hard with trainers since they were 14... hard work is 2nd nature to them


Of course they work hard.. that's apparent. Not sure how my post led you to believe I was communicating that they don't. And I don't agree that how much you work on it is a small variable.


By small variable I mean, I believe they healthily or realistically could get an extra hour in the gym - that's my opinion of how much more work they could put in


ok


And Ingram got locked out the gym so it's not in question w him. You think he's just in the gym but not working on his jumper? that was your question? It's probly what players work on most, in today's league, and it being his main weakness and what the FO told him to work on...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:55 am    Post subject:

dao wrote:
MJST wrote:
mookielala wrote:
MJST wrote:
mookielala wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Smh.. These comments illustrate why I say those on the fence will stay there until Ingram is consistently good in all facets of the game.

Absolutely nothing will change that. He's only another bad game away from the "what is he even good at?" narrative resurfacing.

For those that are enjoying watching his growth, let's just continue to celebrate his successes and improvements.


Consistently good in all facets? How about consistently good in one first?


You just gave me exhibit A with your post.. He's not good at anything right?.. I don't think you can reason with someone who holds this position in regards to Ingram. There's no point in trying.

His play will have to change your mind. No amount of reasoning or debate will do that.


No, he isn't good at anything offensively from an objective standpoint.

Not to get too philosophical, but that is subjective statement based on your definition of "objective." Stats are facts, but the ones you focus on or their meaning, that is a subjective process.


Lonzo Ball is shooting better from mid than Ingram currently is.

I think that says enough.


I have no idea if that's true,


Lonzo's shooting 26% from mid, Ingram's shooting 25.5% from mid.


NBA.com has Lonzo at 23.5% from mid range. Ingram is at 39.2%.


Good job ignoring this answer to you pointing out how this was more accurate after you were the one that asked.

MJST wrote:
dao wrote:
I have no idea where you're getting those stats from. NBA.com has Ingram at 39.2% from mid range.


His shot chart

http://nbasavant.com/player.php?ddlYear=2017&ddlShotMade=&ddlTeamDefense=&player_id=1627742

actually keeps better track of his shots and includes the free throw line as mid.

There you can see where he shoots from mid, and where he shoots in the paint.

Take both those numbers, add them, divide by 2 etc.

Also allows you to see where he's shooting from the corners, in comparison to everywhere else around the three point line.

Hence why I said we should be taking advantage of that. He's shooting 42.9% from three in areas not to do with the corners while shooting 0% from one corner and 25% from the other. Etc.

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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Artest4Three wrote:
Any chance we can hire Dirk's shooting coach and help him refine BI's jump shot? They look very similar:

oi66.tinypic.com/4hxzys.jpg


His shot has already been reworked.. This is why he's no longer shooting with the same proficiency from mid-range. Takes time to get acclimated to an overhauled shot while in game.

I don't think we'll know until the end of the season if whether or not what they've done to his shot works.

I said before the season started that people shouldn't expect him to shoot well this season. At least at the beginning of it.

I would like to know how much time these guys actually spend putting shots up during practice. Maybe GT knows..

I do a lot of defending in here for Ingram, but there's no excuse for having a lousy J as an NBA player. When I thought I might try to be a baller lol.. I made sure my J was money.. If you have to take 1000 shots a day.. do it.


Most NBA players get a good amount of shots up, whether at team practice or on their own time. It really is about *what your working on*, more so than the small variable of how much you can work on it - they all work on their shots a lot. They're pro's, they wana be great, they love the game, they've been working hard with trainers since they were 14... hard work is 2nd nature to them


Of course they work hard.. that's apparent. Not sure how my post led you to believe I was communicating that they don't. And I don't agree that how much you work on it is a small variable.


By small variable I mean, I believe they healthily or realistically could get an extra hour in the gym - that's my opinion of how much more work they could put in


ok


And Ingram got locked out the gym so it's not in question w him. You think he's just in the gym but not working on his jumper? that was your question? It's probly what players work on most, in today's league, and it being his main weakness and what the FO told him to work on...


C'mon boss.. make sense. Of course he works on his jumper, isn't it apparent that I know that since I said they overhauled his shot mechanics????? My question was about how much time they devote to shooting as a team..

I said nothing about anyones work ethic, nor did I suggest they don't work on their shot.. Your response is silly.. which is odd cause they usually aren't.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject:

I'm just naturally opposed to the "hard work" argument so I fight it every chance I get. Wasn't completely sure what you were specifically getting at, but yea I just took it there.
I'm just super convinced that the most important thing is *what* a player in working on. All questions and answers point to that, being the issue. So that's all I prefer to talk about...
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:25 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
I'm just naturally opposed to the "hard work" argument so I fight it every chance I get. Wasn't completely sure what you were specifically getting at, but yea I just took it there.
I'm just super convinced that the most important thing is *what* a player in working on. All questions and answers point to that, being the issue. So that's all I prefer to talk about...


That's fine.. that makes sense. I think volume is just as important though.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:28 am    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
I'm just naturally opposed to the "hard work" argument so I fight it every chance I get. Wasn't completely sure what you were specifically getting at, but yea I just took it there.
I'm just super convinced that the most important thing is *what* a player in working on. All questions and answers point to that, being the issue. So that's all I prefer to talk about...


That's fine.. that makes sense. I think volume is just as important though.


I think that's very important too, it's kind of chicken and egg -- but we know that he works hard, is in the gym a lot, at least - so I'd expect that he's working on his jumper volume wise enough .
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:32 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
I'm just naturally opposed to the "hard work" argument so I fight it every chance I get. Wasn't completely sure what you were specifically getting at, but yea I just took it there.
I'm just super convinced that the most important thing is *what* a player in working on. All questions and answers point to that, being the issue. So that's all I prefer to talk about...


That's fine.. that makes sense. I think volume is just as important though.


I think that's very important too, it's kind of chicken and egg -- but we know that he works hard, is in the gym a lot, at least - so I'd expect that he's working on his jumper volume wise enough .


Agreed.. I was just curious about the volume. I don't too much care for Reggie Miller but I remember him saying something about putting up a thousand shots during practice.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:53 am    Post subject:

most potential of any one on the team...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject:

Still brings his hand to far back at the wrist.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject:

BI should work with Klay to fix that shot. Klay is ridiculous with his shot fundamentals.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject:

12 wrote:
BI should work with Klay to fix that shot. Klay is ridiculous with his shot fundamentals.


Or the next best thing: Mychal Thompson
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject:

12 wrote:
BI should work with Klay to fix that shot. Klay is ridiculous with his shot fundamentals.


Yup. Summer 2019 after Klay signs with us
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
I'm just naturally opposed to the "hard work" argument so I fight it every chance I get. Wasn't completely sure what you were specifically getting at, but yea I just took it there.
I'm just super convinced that the most important thing is *what* a player in working on. All questions and answers point to that, being the issue. So that's all I prefer to talk about...

Wasn't it MJ who said something like if you spend a bunch of time working hard at the wrong things, it will get you nowhere..?

I've always believed in the mantra, "work hard at working smart".
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