OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD!!
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dao
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject:

silkwilkes wrote:
Look man... you can't disrespect a person who makes an argument based on analysis... which is how GT approaches things. You may disagree with his conclusion, which is fine. But to say that the data is wrong is just silly. The data is the data. What you interpolate from it is another thing.

As far as BI... he's fascinating because he instinctively wants to play within the flow of a team. But he does that to such an extreme extent where he doesn't exert his will on the game enough. In order to combat that, he's taken it to another extreme where he literally attacks in ISO now... and he's freakin effective at it. The result however, is that while his individual stats have gone through the roof, he's not impacting his team's effectiveness like say Kobe could. He never will. You would need to become a dominant 1v1 player to be able to do that.

So the next stage of evolution for him is to marry that individualism he's developed with the team concept so that is maximizes its impact on the team... and then you'll see all the analytics suddenly look very impressive.

I can't remember a young kid that went from one extreme to another like BI has lol.
Ingram's lack of a three point shot really limits his effectiveness on a team that plays championship style basketball. Right now he is indeed playing like a young Derozan. I generally don't like this style player, though my favorite player of all time (Kobe) was actually a filthy rich man's version of Derozan.

2nd year Derozan's stats, at age 21, look pretty similar to Ingram's stats this year.

Derozan: 17.2 ppg....53.0 TS%.... -2.4 BPM

Ingram: 16.0 ppg....52.6 TS%..... -2.2 BPM

Ingram's numbers this year will continue to improve though. But the key difference between him and Derozan is defense. Ingram will be a very good defender in his prime, unlike Derozan.

Ingram really needs to add a three point shot to his game to be the type of player that can start on a championship team. I think he'll get there, he's still young AF. Ingram is also a more gifted passer than Derozan.

If we get Cousins and George this summer, then Ingram's three point shooting would be less of a requirement, short term at least. George/Kuzma/Cousins is gives us three shooters. Lonzo/Ingram, well hopefully one of them can get there (bleep) together by next year.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:53 am    Post subject:

DrDent wrote:
epak wrote:
The Juggernaut wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
defense wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
epak wrote:
I wouldn't have guessed at the start of the season that we'd have 4 guys: KCP, BI, Lonzo and Kuzma all averaging over 30 mpg.

2 rookies and a 1 year player at 30+ mpg.
That's insane. Rare to find a team with that recipe w/o a superstar going to the playoffs. But I still believe! hahah.


Yeah, it's quite a shift for Luke. JC led the team last year with 29.2mpg, and that'd be 5th most on the team this year.


Not sure where to go with this question so I'll just ask here. Quite a few people on LG believe the Lakers are a better team if Randle and Kuzma start next the Lonzo/KCP/Ingram. You mind giving me your opinion on this projected line up? I'm trying to figure out if I'm missing something because I think that line up wouldn't make us any better, maybe even worse.

Also can you give us your preferred starting line up?


I think that's our best lineup, and the numbers reflect that. That particular grouping has gotten the 4th most minutes of any 5-man unit. And I think you of all people would appreciate a particular stat category here.

https://i.imgur.com/Xa7FOzj.png

I think it alleviates some of the playmaking burden off of Lonzo, and allows the first unit to effectively switch everything, at least in most cases.


Ball/KCP/BI/JR/Kuz lineup is our best lineup by far. I don't know why Luke won't give them more burn let alone start them.



Seriously. Just start them, so we can know if that lineup is for real or not. I want to see if Jules can handle the workload at his high impact rate.


👍 And GT giving the stat approval to our eyeball test sealed the deal for me.

I think it was last week I was lamenting bad times ahead with Luke forcing what he wishes to be the starting lineup versus what should be (and unfortunately so far I've been right). Eyeball test also tells me a lineup with kuz gives BI more operating room to dissect a defense on his drives, and with randle on d allows better switching (caveat: randle v embiid not good)


Agree that it's time to give Randle a turn at starting center. We NEED Kuzma in the starting lineup, and Nance/Randle is a poor fit. The question is whether or not Randle can handle starting centers without fouling out. He was fouling out per 36 last time I checked.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Brandon Ingram vs Andrew Wiggins Comparison Stats this year

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=cwaep


Definitely some similarities between Wiggins and Ingram, although I think Ingram has a little more between the ears and, while Wiggins until this year has shown better scoring ability, Ingram has already shown an ability to be a better all around player (and defender despite Wiggins' promise). Still, surprising to see the year Wiggins is having so far. You could argue Ingram has been better this season than him. That's pretty amazing, but says more about Wiggins than it does about Ingram.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
MJST wrote:
Brandon Ingram vs Andrew Wiggins Comparison Stats this year

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=cwaep


Definitely some similarities between Wiggins and Ingram, although I think Ingram has a little more between the ears and, while Wiggins until this year has shown better scoring ability, Ingram has already shown an ability to be a better all around player (and defender despite Wiggins' promise). Still, surprising to see the year Wiggins is having so far. You could argue Ingram has been better this season than him. That's pretty amazing, but says more about Wiggins than it does about Ingram.


Right now he has a lot of Wiggins/Droz in his game. The aggressive attacks to the rim and drawing contact. Pretty amazing that he relishes contact despite being a beanpole.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject:

silkwilkes wrote:
Look man... you can't disrespect a person who makes an argument based on analysis... which is how GT approaches things. You may disagree with his conclusion, which is fine. But to say that the data is wrong is just silly. The data is the data. What you interpolate from it is another thing.

As far as BI... he's fascinating because he instinctively wants to play within the flow of a team. But he does that to such an extreme extent where he doesn't exert his will on the game enough. In order to combat that, he's taken it to another extreme where he literally attacks in ISO now... and he's freakin effective at it. The result however, is that while his individual stats have gone through the roof, he's not impacting his team's effectiveness like say Kobe could. He never will. You would need to become a dominant 1v1 player to be able to do that.

So the next stage of evolution for him is to marry that individualism he's developed with the team concept so that is maximizes its impact on the team... and then you'll see all the analytics suddenly look very impressive.

I can't remember a young kid that went from one extreme to another like BI has lol.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject:

babyskyhook wrote:
dao wrote:
the growth rate Ingram had at the end of last season has carried over to this season. He keeps getting better and better.



His numbers in the last 9 games:

19.1 ppg
6.4 rebounds
3.7 assists
56.0 TS%

That's the best stretch of his young career. These are outstanding numbers for a player his age, and he has so much more room for growth.


He seems to have taken it to another level lately. Hopefully he makes another couple of jumps before the end of the year, as I'm still hoping that BI can make my prediction from last spring of him winning the MIP this year come true.

Either way, I'm very happy with the consistent progress he keeps showing. If you put his career averages on a chart, it would look like a staircase, as he hits a level for a period of time, then moves up another level and stays there for a bit, then does it again. Keep climbing those stairs young man.


Yes, I think this is why it is hard extrapolate one and done's ceilings based on their rookie year stats as many are wont to do on this board.

Just because a player is really bad in the NBA at age 19 does not mean they are a bust. Their progress is often non linear.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
MJST wrote:
Brandon Ingram vs Andrew Wiggins Comparison Stats this year

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=cwaep


Definitely some similarities between Wiggins and Ingram, although I think Ingram has a little more between the ears and, while Wiggins until this year has shown better scoring ability, Ingram has already shown an ability to be a better all around player (and defender despite Wiggins' promise). Still, surprising to see the year Wiggins is having so far. You could argue Ingram has been better this season than him. That's pretty amazing, but says more about Wiggins than it does about Ingram.


Right now he has a lot of Wiggins/Droz in his game. The aggressive attacks to the rim and drawing contact. Pretty amazing that he relishes contact despite being a beanpole.


Looks like it's safe to come back to the Ingram thread. 😂

I'm gonna say he reminds me of Paul Pierce when he was younger and enjoyed taking contact. At least until someone agrees or disagrees with me. 😂
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
MJST wrote:
Brandon Ingram vs Andrew Wiggins Comparison Stats this year

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=cwaep


Definitely some similarities between Wiggins and Ingram, although I think Ingram has a little more between the ears and, while Wiggins until this year has shown better scoring ability, Ingram has already shown an ability to be a better all around player (and defender despite Wiggins' promise). Still, surprising to see the year Wiggins is having so far. You could argue Ingram has been better this season than him. That's pretty amazing, but says more about Wiggins than it does about Ingram.


Right now he has a lot of Wiggins/Droz in his game. The aggressive attacks to the rim and drawing contact. Pretty amazing that he relishes contact despite being a beanpole.


Looks like it's safe to come back to the Ingram thread. 😂

I'm gonna say he reminds me of Paul Pierce when he was younger and enjoyed taking contact. At least until someone agrees or disagrees with me. 😂


Pierce was thicker and stronger (one of my buddies played against him in college, former D-1 guy) than Ingram. Much better shooter too.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
MJST wrote:
Brandon Ingram vs Andrew Wiggins Comparison Stats this year

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=cwaep


Definitely some similarities between Wiggins and Ingram, although I think Ingram has a little more between the ears and, while Wiggins until this year has shown better scoring ability, Ingram has already shown an ability to be a better all around player (and defender despite Wiggins' promise). Still, surprising to see the year Wiggins is having so far. You could argue Ingram has been better this season than him. That's pretty amazing, but says more about Wiggins than it does about Ingram.


Wiggins has all the tools in the world, but lacks that elite work ethic, especially on the defensive end, to maximize them.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject:

What's "elite work ethic?" Wiggins is clearly putting in the work in the gym, look at his body now.

Are you talking about motor?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
What's "elite work ethic?" Wiggins is clearly putting in the work in the gym, look at his body now.

Are you talking about motor?


Going to the gym and lifting weights/being in shape is great, but you also have to be Koke like in your dedication to improve your skills as well.

To me wiggins has all of the physical parts down pat. But he has not been as effective on the the court as he could be. Mainly he seems to lack the focus/intensity/desire to be an impact defensive player.

Back to BI, from all accounts this kid has an elite work ethic. That is why I have not been too worried about him improving.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject:

Dr. Funkbot wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
What's "elite work ethic?" Wiggins is clearly putting in the work in the gym, look at his body now.

Are you talking about motor?


Going to the gym and lifting weights/being in shape is great, but you also have to be Koke like in your dedication to improve your skills as well.

To me wiggins has all of the physical parts down pat. But he has not been as effective on the the court as he could be. Mainly he seems to lack the focus/intensity/desire to be an impact defensive player.

Back to BI, from all accounts this kid has an elite work ethic. That is why I have not been too worried about him improving.


Still not sure how you extrapolate that though. Are there rumors that Wiggins isn't focused or not working hard? I think you may be talking about Wiggins's lack of defensive motor. That's been a big TWolves complaint for years. He thinks he's Kobe on offense and takes off defense.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject:

The per 36 numbers clearly show a great deal of improvement for Ingram compared to last year. However, it is possible that they are even better than they look.

One thing to keep in context about Ingram's development compared to last season, is that the team around him is different. Last year, Ingram was surrounded by more and better shooters. This year, however, we are last in the nba in three point shooting. While we were not a great 3pt shooting team last year, we clearly were better than this year. Considering that Ingram's game right now is primarily driving to the basket, I think it is even more impressive how much he has improved in that respect. This is because defenses can pack the paint even more than they did last year due to the lack of outside shooting. In addition, Ingram plays a large amount of time with Lonzo. While Lonzo can create some good looks for players, Lonzo's presence right now hurts Ingram's driving. Teams are continually going under screens and playing off of Lonzo daring him to shoot. This makes it easier for defenders to collapse on Ingram as he drives. Forcing more turnovers and making it harder for him to attack the basket. Despite that, he has greatly improved at attacking the basket compared to last season.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject:

Here are the Net Ratings of Ingram's 2-Man Lineups

Ingram + Caruso..........+39.5 (2 minutes)
Ingram + Ennis............+32.4 (16 minutes)
Ingram + Lopez..............-0.8 (491 minutes)
Ingram + KCP.................-4.1 (603 minutes)
Ingram + Randle.............-4.3 (232 minutes)
Ingram + Ball.................-5.2 (616 minutes)
Ingram + Clarkson..........-6.9 (231 minutes)
Ingram + Kuzma.............-7.6 (420 minutes)
Ingram + Bogut..............-8.1 (46 minutes)
Ingram + Nance..............-9.2 (269 minutes)
Ingram + Brewer...........-13.8 (80 minutes)
Ingram + Hart..............-15.2 (65 minutes)
Ingram + Deng.............-26.8 (13 minutes)
Ingram + Zubac............-55.5 (5 minutes)
Ingram + Blue.............-143.4 (2 minutes)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject:

Ingram is more Jimmy Butler then Wiggins IMO.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject:

Not what I expected to see
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Here are the Net Ratings of Ingram's 2-Man Lineups

Ingram + Caruso..........+39.5 (2 minutes)
Ingram + Ennis............+32.4 (16 minutes)
Ingram + Lopez..............-0.8 (491 minutes)
Ingram + KCP.................-4.1 (603 minutes)
Ingram + Randle.............-4.3 (232 minutes)
Ingram + Ball.................-5.2 (616 minutes)
Ingram + Clarkson..........-6.9 (231 minutes)
Ingram + Kuzma.............-7.6 (420 minutes)
Ingram + Bogut..............-8.1 (46 minutes)
Ingram + Nance..............-9.2 (269 minutes)
Ingram + Brewer...........-13.8 (80 minutes)
Ingram + Hart..............-15.2 (65 minutes)
Ingram + Deng.............-26.8 (13 minutes)
Ingram + Zubac............-55.5 (5 minutes)
Ingram + Blue.............-143.4 (2 minutes)


Would you please be so kind and put this in English?
I'm not the sharpest crayon when it comes to +/-
I mean, I know the obvious. But I'm sure there's a lot more to this than meets the eye.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Here are the Net Ratings of Ingram's 2-Man Lineups

Ingram + Caruso..........+39.5 (2 minutes)
Ingram + Ennis............+32.4 (16 minutes)
Ingram + Lopez..............-0.8 (491 minutes)
Ingram + KCP.................-4.1 (603 minutes)
Ingram + Randle.............-4.3 (232 minutes)
Ingram + Ball.................-5.2 (616 minutes)
Ingram + Clarkson..........-6.9 (231 minutes)
Ingram + Kuzma.............-7.6 (420 minutes)
Ingram + Bogut..............-8.1 (46 minutes)
Ingram + Nance..............-9.2 (269 minutes)
Ingram + Brewer...........-13.8 (80 minutes)
Ingram + Hart..............-15.2 (65 minutes)
Ingram + Deng.............-26.8 (13 minutes)
Ingram + Zubac............-55.5 (5 minutes)
Ingram + Blue.............-143.4 (2 minutes)


Thanks for posting GT.

I'm really surprised at the numbers when he's paired with Lopez and with Kuz. I thought those numbers would be reversed, with a relatively good number with Kuz and a relatively bad number with Lopez, but instead it's the reverse.

The Nance and Randle numbers came in more like I would have thought.

Any ideas on how the number with Lopez is relatively good, given what we know about the starters +/- as a 5 man unit ?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject:

elbow wrote:
The per 36 numbers clearly show a great deal of improvement for Ingram compared to last year. However, it is possible that they are even better than they look.

One thing to keep in context about Ingram's development compared to last season, is that the team around him is different. Last year, Ingram was surrounded by more and better shooters. This year, however, we are last in the nba in three point shooting. While we were not a great 3pt shooting team last year, we clearly were better than this year. Considering that Ingram's game right now is primarily driving to the basket, I think it is even more impressive how much he has improved in that respect. This is because defenses can pack the paint even more than they did last year due to the lack of outside shooting. In addition, Ingram plays a large amount of time with Lonzo. While Lonzo can create some good looks for players, Lonzo's presence right now hurts Ingram's driving. Teams are continually going under screens and playing off of Lonzo daring him to shoot. This makes it easier for defenders to collapse on Ingram as he drives. Forcing more turnovers and making it harder for him to attack the basket. Despite that, he has greatly improved at attacking the basket compared to last season.


Intersting and fair point.

His ability to get to the basket is pretty remarkable. He seems to be able to get there whenever he wants against whomever he wants.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject:

What's a reasonable number of minutes to have to consider it a good predictor of how effective those line ups are?

How does those numbers account for strength of opponents or something like whether the team is leading or trailing big? For instance if the Lakers are trailing by say 15 in the middle of the 4th quarter, its stands to reason that more often than not they will make a run before the game is over.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:33 pm    Post subject:

I think I'll watch the game and see for myself
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
I wouldn't blame Ingram for his perceived occasional lack of tenacity offensively. I've seen the same thing with Kuz, where he's now passing up opportunities to create and score because Luke might be in their heads a little bit.

Ball move, and look for teammates is what he preaches. I think they're trying to find balance. Of the two I'm more comfortable with Kuz taking a higher volume and being a bit more selfish. I actually like where Ingram is right now with just letting the game come to him. As his ability increases so will his assertiveness.


He's 100% in their heads in this regard and I don't like it.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject:

12 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Here are the Net Ratings of Ingram's 2-Man Lineups

Ingram + Caruso..........+39.5 (2 minutes)
Ingram + Ennis............+32.4 (16 minutes)
Ingram + Lopez..............-0.8 (491 minutes)
Ingram + KCP.................-4.1 (603 minutes)
Ingram + Randle.............-4.3 (232 minutes)
Ingram + Ball.................-5.2 (616 minutes)
Ingram + Clarkson..........-6.9 (231 minutes)
Ingram + Kuzma.............-7.6 (420 minutes)
Ingram + Bogut..............-8.1 (46 minutes)
Ingram + Nance..............-9.2 (269 minutes)
Ingram + Brewer...........-13.8 (80 minutes)
Ingram + Hart..............-15.2 (65 minutes)
Ingram + Deng.............-26.8 (13 minutes)
Ingram + Zubac............-55.5 (5 minutes)
Ingram + Blue.............-143.4 (2 minutes)


Would you please be so kind and put this in English?
I'm not the sharpest crayon when it comes to +/-
I mean, I know the obvious. But I'm sure there's a lot more to this than meets the eye.


1) This is how well the team plays when Ingram is on the court with other guys, per 100 possessions. The average Laker game has about 103 possessions in it, so this is roughly how much they outscore the other team over the course of a game when Ingram + the other guy is on the court.

2) Above all else, these sort of stats have a lot of noise in them, meaning that it's unwise to draw definitive conclusions. I consider them clues, not a smoking gun.

3) The biggest thing that stands out to me is that of the guys who get minutes, the team plays the best when Ingram & Lopez are paired together. This makes sense to me. They've had nice chemistry in pick & pops, and for as inconsistent as he's been, Lopez provides a scoring threat down low.

4) I'm surprised that his numbers w/Kuzma haven't been good, for similar reasons of having a second scorer next to him. My best guess is that Kuzma really thrives on ball movement, and ball movement reduces when Ingram's on the court.
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Last edited by GoldenThroat on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
I think I'll watch the game and see for myself


Not like games are decided by one team outscoring the other or anything.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject:

defense wrote:
What's a reasonable number of minutes to have to consider it a good predictor of how effective those line ups are?

How does those numbers account for strength of opponents or something like whether the team is leading or trailing big? For instance if the Lakers are trailing by say 15 in the middle of the 4th quarter, its stands to reason that more often than not they will make a run before the game is over.


No, those stats don't account for that. I believe that RPM and BPM do, but tox would be a better person to ask.

I'd say that 150 or 200 minutes in a 2-man lineup is predictive, but that's just a guess.
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