OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD!!
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LakerSanity
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject:

Hart's currently Ingram's superior in what I can see right now - forcing turnovers (anticipating passes) and catch/shoot opportunities. The latter advantage is disappearing by the game, and in every other way (both defensively and offensively), Ingram is Hart's superior. I love Hart too, and think he could be a better version of D-Fish for us eventually... but he's still only a role player. You don't compare Ingram and Hart. They aren't on the same level now, and certainly won't be a year or two from now.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:19 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Hart's currently Ingram's superior in what I can see right now - forcing turnovers (anticipating passes) and catch/shoot opportunities. The latter advantage is disappearing by the game, and in every other way (both defensively and offensively), Ingram is Hart's superior. I love Hart too, and think he could be a better version of D-Fish for us eventually... but he's still only a role player. You don't compare Ingram and Hart. They aren't on the same level now, and certainly won't be a year or two from now.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I've been watching. It's officially 3 games where BI has been playing this "Efficiency" role that he would excel at.

But I'd rather have Hart at 2, PG14 at 3. Hart can literally switch every position and is more comfortable shooting 3s with accuracy. Lower USG too, which I think is especially important next to Lonzo and LeBron.

It's not a knock on BI. It's just team fit/offense + defensive balance and efficiencies. There's a reason why the best scoring runs have been Ball, Clarkson, Hart as a 3-wing lineup, usually next to Kuzma and LNJ. I don't necessarily think it's because LNJ is playing 5 that's getting that lineup advantages. I think he's been playing more favorable matchups.

Simply put, guys like Zo, PG14, Kuzma can switch 2-3 positions each. Josh Hart and LeBron? 4. That's HUGE.


Interesting. I've been thrilled with Ingram over these last 3 games. I get your point regarding Hart, but I'd trade what Hart can do in exchange for Ingram's ball handling and greater versatility. I'm really encouraged by these last few games, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.



I'm also encouraged, but I don't look at it as just the last 3 games. I see these last 3 games as him hitting a new level, but it's a continuation of him getting incrementally, but steadily better with his shooting and decision-making since the East Coast road trip that ended with the Cleveland game.

That makes me feel like I'm not getting ahead of myself, as he started tweaking his game right around the time you and Omar first started voicing your valid concerns about how he was being developed, so he's been moving in this direction for a while.

Can't wait to see him hit another new level after the AS break.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Hart's currently Ingram's superior in what I can see right now - forcing turnovers (anticipating passes) and catch/shoot opportunities. The latter advantage is disappearing by the game, and in every other way (both defensively and offensively), Ingram is Hart's superior. I love Hart too, and think he could be a better version of D-Fish for us eventually... but he's still only a role player. You don't compare Ingram and Hart. They aren't on the same level now, and certainly won't be a year or two from now.




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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject:

Ingram's on a trajectory. It's like dam with holes. You plug one, and the pressure is displaced somewhere else to create a new hole. Ingram is slowly, but surely, plugging holes. I think his improvement ever since the second half of last season has been pretty steady.

As only a 20 year old, he's had a lot of impressive games this year -

10/20/17 @ PHO: 25 PTS (9/14), 2 RBD, 1 AST, 1 BLK, 1 STL
11/13/17 v PHI: 26 PTS (11/18), 11 RBD, 3 AST, 2 BLK
12/03/17 @ HOU: 18 PTS (7/16), 9 RBD, 5 AST, 1 STL
12/07/17 @ PHI: 21 PTS (7/21), 7 RBD, 6 AST, 1 BLK
12/14/17 @ CLE: 26 PTS (10/15), 6 RBD, 6 AST, 1 STL
12/18/17 v GSW: 19 PTS (6/12), 6 RBD, 6 AST, 2 BLK, 2 STL
01/05/18 v CHA: 22 PTS (10/18), 14 RBD, 4 AST
01/07/18 v ATL: 20 PTS (6/7), 1 RBD, 7 AST, 1 BLK
01/11/18 v SAS: 26 PTS (11/21), 3 RBD, 3 AST, 1 STL

There are a number of other games I could reasonably add to that list. Looking at last year's games, even the one against San Antonio (where he only had 22 PTS (10/15), 2 RBD, 0 AST, 1 BLK) doesn't even stand out now. He's definitely taken himself to another level this year. In any case, I think he's had enough impressive games at this point that you don't call these "flashes" any more. You just call them the bar, and ask that he more consistently meets it. I think we now can expect him to be what he want him to be, and, thus, we also shouldn't be that surprised if he eventually becomes it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject:

babyskyhook wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I've been watching. It's officially 3 games where BI has been playing this "Efficiency" role that he would excel at.

But I'd rather have Hart at 2, PG14 at 3. Hart can literally switch every position and is more comfortable shooting 3s with accuracy. Lower USG too, which I think is especially important next to Lonzo and LeBron.

It's not a knock on BI. It's just team fit/offense + defensive balance and efficiencies. There's a reason why the best scoring runs have been Ball, Clarkson, Hart as a 3-wing lineup, usually next to Kuzma and LNJ. I don't necessarily think it's because LNJ is playing 5 that's getting that lineup advantages. I think he's been playing more favorable matchups.

Simply put, guys like Zo, PG14, Kuzma can switch 2-3 positions each. Josh Hart and LeBron? 4. That's HUGE.


Interesting. I've been thrilled with Ingram over these last 3 games. I get your point regarding Hart, but I'd trade what Hart can do in exchange for Ingram's ball handling and greater versatility. I'm really encouraged by these last few games, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.



I'm also encouraged, but I don't look at it as just the last 3 games. I see these last 3 games as him hitting a new level, but it's a continuation of him getting incrementally, but steadily better with his shooting and decision-making since the East Coast road trip that ended with the Cleveland game.

That makes me feel like I'm not getting ahead of myself, as he started tweaking his game right around the time you and Omar first started voicing your valid concerns about how he was being developed, so he's been moving in this direction for a while.

Can't wait to see him hit another new level after the AS break.


Incremental, good term to describe his development.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject:

BI & Zo have been playing with so much confidence lately. They are developing an understanding of each other's game, looking for one another for open threes. This is what happens when young guys get the full backing of their organization. Sadly, BI, Ball, and Kuz are the only ones getting endorsed by the FO.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
BI & Zo have been playing with so much confidence lately. They are developing an understanding of each other's game, looking for one another for open threes. This is what happens when young guys get the full backing of their organization. Sadly, BI, Ball, and Kuz are the only ones getting endorsed by the FO.


I'm hoping Hart stays under the radar so no one asks for him before the trade deadline. Even though I believe he's already making a name for himself. Maybe it's best they only endorse the aforementioned.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
BI & Zo have been playing with so much confidence lately. They are developing an understanding of each other's game, looking for one another for open threes. This is what happens when young guys get the full backing of their organization. Sadly, BI, Ball, and Kuz are the only ones getting endorsed by the FO.


I'm hoping Hart stays under the radar so no one asks for him before the trade deadline. Even though I believe he's already making a name for himself. Maybe it's best they only endorse the aforementioned.


I don't see them letting go of Hart. He's a bargain and improving monthly.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject:

mookielala wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
BI & Zo have been playing with so much confidence lately. They are developing an understanding of each other's game, looking for one another for open threes. This is what happens when young guys get the full backing of their organization. Sadly, BI, Ball, and Kuz are the only ones getting endorsed by the FO.


I'm hoping Hart stays under the radar so no one asks for him before the trade deadline. Even though I believe he's already making a name for himself. Maybe it's best they only endorse the aforementioned.


I don't see them letting go of Hart. He's a bargain and improving monthly.


I don't see it either.. but anything is possible if the right offer is presented.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
BI & Zo have been playing with so much confidence lately. They are developing an understanding of each other's game, looking for one another for open threes. This is what happens when young guys get the full backing of their organization. Sadly, BI, Ball, and Kuz are the only ones getting endorsed by the FO.


I'm hoping Hart stays under the radar so no one asks for him before the trade deadline. Even though I believe he's already making a name for himself. Maybe it's best they only endorse the aforementioned.


Hart should start playing more minutes. I think heís a solid role player and hopefully the Lakers just donít throw him on any deal. I agree, he does not need to be endorse, he need to stay under the radar for us.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Hart's currently Ingram's superior in what I can see right now - forcing turnovers (anticipating passes) and catch/shoot opportunities. The latter advantage is disappearing by the game, and in every other way (both defensively and offensively), Ingram is Hart's superior. I love Hart too, and think he could be a better version of D-Fish for us eventually... but he's still only a role player. You don't compare Ingram and Hart. They aren't on the same level now, and certainly won't be a year or two from now.

Ingram would need to be a role-player for long stretches when flanked by Lebron (30%+ usage) and PG13 (25-28% usage). Can BI become a better low usage role-player by next season?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject:

Ingram is a 6th man if Bron and PG13 come. He can finish a lot of games, one of those other guys can play the 4 then.. BI can pout all he wants, but he can wait his turn until he's 23. Then somehow he starts (league gets smaller or he gets bigger, or PG13 is relegated to the bench)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
mookielala wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
BI & Zo have been playing with so much confidence lately. They are developing an understanding of each other's game, looking for one another for open threes. This is what happens when young guys get the full backing of their organization. Sadly, BI, Ball, and Kuz are the only ones getting endorsed by the FO.


I'm hoping Hart stays under the radar so no one asks for him before the trade deadline. Even though I believe he's already making a name for himself. Maybe it's best they only endorse the aforementioned.


I don't see them letting go of Hart. He's a bargain and improving monthly.


I don't see it either.. but anything is possible if the right offer is presented.


I kinda feel the same about Thomas Bryant. It's most likely they aren't playing him because they feel he's not ready, but maybe, just maybe thy are holding him out just to keep him out of trade talks. I mean someone with his size & wingspan, who can protect the rim and shoot threes?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject:

Anyone else get hyped up when the TNT announcer mentioned Ingram doing the George Gervin move?

Last edited by Inspector Gadget on Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject:

Lebron is not coming. It doesn't make sense for him. And it probably isn't the best rebuild plan for the Lakers either, even though he is great.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Anyone else get hyped up when the TNT announced mentioned Ingram doing the George Gervin move?


He got a lot of love that night. I was sure he going to lose the ball, and then he did that. I wonder if he will do it again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject:

mookielala wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Anyone else get hyped up when the TNT announced mentioned Ingram doing the George Gervin move?


He got a lot of love that night. I was sure he going to lose the ball, and then he did that. I wonder if he will do it again.


Oh he will.

http://www.lakersnation.com/brandon-ingram-looked-up-to-george-gervin-says-lakers-made-him-feel-comfortable/2016/06/09/
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
mookielala wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Anyone else get hyped up when the TNT announced mentioned Ingram doing the George Gervin move?


He got a lot of love that night. I was sure he going to lose the ball, and then he did that. I wonder if he will do it again.


Oh he will.

http://www.lakersnation.com/brandon-ingram-looked-up-to-george-gervin-says-lakers-made-him-feel-comfortable/2016/06/09/


That's really cool. I hadn't seen that. Thanks!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject:

mookielala wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
mookielala wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Anyone else get hyped up when the TNT announced mentioned Ingram doing the George Gervin move?


He got a lot of love that night. I was sure he going to lose the ball, and then he did that. I wonder if he will do it again.


Oh he will.

http://www.lakersnation.com/brandon-ingram-looked-up-to-george-gervin-says-lakers-made-him-feel-comfortable/2016/06/09/


That's really cool. I hadn't seen that. Thanks!


Yeah, I read that he has looked up to a lot of good NBA players, this is why his potential is so sky high.


Last edited by Inspector Gadget on Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
I've been watching. It's officially 3 games where BI has been playing this "Efficiency" role that he would excel at.

But I'd rather have Hart at 2, PG14 at 3. Hart can literally switch every position and is more comfortable shooting 3s with accuracy. Lower USG too, which I think is especially important next to Lonzo and LeBron.

It's not a knock on BI. It's just team fit/offense + defensive balance and efficiencies. There's a reason why the best scoring runs have been Ball, Clarkson, Hart as a 3-wing lineup, usually next to Kuzma and LNJ. I don't necessarily think it's because LNJ is playing 5 that's getting that lineup advantages. I think he's been playing more favorable matchups.

Simply put, guys like Zo, PG14, Kuzma can switch 2-3 positions each. Josh Hart and LeBron? 4. That's HUGE.


Interesting. I've been thrilled with Ingram over these last 3 games. I get your point regarding Hart, but I'd trade what Hart can do in exchange for Ingram's ball handling and greater versatility. I'm really encouraged by these last few games, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.


Mostly, I just see LeBron and PG14 looking for more opportunities to slash. I have a slight concern about BI getting lost in that mix.

I'm also totally enamored with the defensive flexibility.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:20 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
babyskyhook wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^My closing 5 would be:

LeBron
Kuzma
Ingram
Hart
Lonzo


Hart isnít closing over Pg13.


My bad.

LeBron
Kuzma
PG14
Hart
Lonzo

Had to take Ingram out because Hart/Kuzma/PG14 are already legit spot up shooters, Zo and LeBron doing all of the playmaking. Ingram isn't as clean of a fit.



You been watching the last few games Mike ? BI's on his way. 3s and mid-range looking good, as well as decisions on when to dish for the most part.


It would be a great problem to have though- a tough time deciding which guys would be on the court to close due to having so much talent on the roster.


I've been watching. It's officially 3 games where BI has been playing this "Efficiency" role that he would excel at.

But I'd rather have Hart at 2, PG14 at 3. Hart can literally switch every position and is more comfortable shooting 3s with accuracy. Lower USG too, which I think is especially important next to Lonzo and LeBron.

It's not a knock on BI. It's just team fit/offense + defensive balance and efficiencies. There's a reason why the best scoring runs have been Ball, Clarkson, Hart as a 3-wing lineup, usually next to Kuzma and LNJ. I don't necessarily think it's because LNJ is playing 5 that's getting that lineup advantages. I think he's been playing more favorable matchups.

Simply put, guys like Zo, PG14, Kuzma can switch 2-3 positions each. Josh Hart and LeBron? 4. That's HUGE.


Am I wrong for wondering if Cousins + LeBron is the better fit/blalance?

Cousins
Kuz/Nance
Lebron
BI/Hart
Lonzo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
The biggest change to Ingram has been his actual role; basically FAR FAR less Iso, more off-ball, more catch and shoot, some drive and kick.

Well, I think Hart is better than Ingram at 2 of the 3 categories, especially behind the arc. Besides, drive/kick is less necessary with LeBron, PG14, and Zo all on the floor.

Sidenote - the 1st major scoring run was with Hart. 15-0 if I remember correctly just from last night's game.

KCP didn't wake up until he had some very dumb TO in the the 3rd Q.


I'll forgive you because I know Hart is your favorite player. However, you don't put Hart in over Ingram, especially not an Ingram with another year or two under his belt.

Think of it this way - lets say we had Tayshaun Prince and Jason Kidd on the team along with Kobe back in 2008, do you play Fisher in the 4th over Tayshaun Prince? Obviously, Kobe is better than George, but I also expect Ingram to be better than Prince. That illustrates the point. You play your best players, and with Ingram's length, he's going to have more defensive impact than Hart guarding either the 2 or the 3. And while Hart could be a better spot up shooter, Ingram already does everything else better and, in another year or two, should be even that much better than Hart on offense as well.

If you think Hart's going to be better in late games than Ingram, whether next to George or anyone else, then you might as well just trade Ingram now and create a better roster that doesn't force you to waste a key asset on the bench (like what we're doing with Randle). Having Ingram sit on the bench at the end of the games would just be a waste of resources that we could potentially swap into something we could use that's better than Hart. Of course, I don't agree with the notion of trading Ingram or that he should ever be benched in any situation, but those ideas would seem to be your perspective running to its ultimate conclusion.


I think there's a point to where PG14 and LeBron are going to dominate the basketball. This isn't about comparing Ingram to Hart directly as individual players. There's going to be some games where Ingram will be a better fit as a closer. There will be other games where it's Hart.

Ingram doesn't have to be traded just because I think Hart is going to be a closer. No one has been signed. No reason to jump the gun.

My expectation is only that PG14 gets signed, and that's it, not LeBron. I know the franchise is making basketball moves to line things up with LeBron, but I don't have confidence that it's happening.

I just think about "what each guy does best." LeBron is doing the playmaking. PG14 is slashing and shooting. Zo does playmaking and winning plays. Kuzma, shoot. Where does this leave Ingram? It's like he's 3 stars out of 5 across the board, but you've got specialists at the other spots. You literally have 3 playmakers better than Ingram, before he goes into offensive creating.

LeBron's best squads had shooters, especially in the halfcourt. Guys like Bosh and Kevin Love had to back off their full offensive arsenal for spot up shooting. Mike Miller. JR Smith. Even Mario Chalmers.

I find that one of the hardest things is for a low USG player to come off the bench or start, and just be immediately effective. When Hart comes off the pine, dude is just ready for his catch and shoot 3s, defensive switches, defensive rebounding, and the occasional hit aheads with the very rare crosscourt passes. I can't imagine that level of engagement if Ingram isn't getting his usual offensive touches.

All of this changes DRAMATICALLY assuming Ingram sticks to this Kirilenko role and sticks to the frequency off a couple off-ball finishes, WAY lower Iso opportunities, stepping into his 3pt or straight C&S...

... But Josh Hart is already there.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject:

2019 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
babyskyhook wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^My closing 5 would be:

LeBron
Kuzma
Ingram
Hart
Lonzo


Hart isnít closing over Pg13.


My bad.

LeBron
Kuzma
PG14
Hart
Lonzo

Had to take Ingram out because Hart/Kuzma/PG14 are already legit spot up shooters, Zo and LeBron doing all of the playmaking. Ingram isn't as clean of a fit.



You been watching the last few games Mike ? BI's on his way. 3s and mid-range looking good, as well as decisions on when to dish for the most part.


It would be a great problem to have though- a tough time deciding which guys would be on the court to close due to having so much talent on the roster.


I've been watching. It's officially 3 games where BI has been playing this "Efficiency" role that he would excel at.

But I'd rather have Hart at 2, PG14 at 3. Hart can literally switch every position and is more comfortable shooting 3s with accuracy. Lower USG too, which I think is especially important next to Lonzo and LeBron.

It's not a knock on BI. It's just team fit/offense + defensive balance and efficiencies. There's a reason why the best scoring runs have been Ball, Clarkson, Hart as a 3-wing lineup, usually next to Kuzma and LNJ. I don't necessarily think it's because LNJ is playing 5 that's getting that lineup advantages. I think he's been playing more favorable matchups.

Simply put, guys like Zo, PG14, Kuzma can switch 2-3 positions each. Josh Hart and LeBron? 4. That's HUGE.


Am I wrong for wondering if Cousins + LeBron is the better fit/blalance?

Cousins
Kuz/Nance
Lebron
BI/Hart
Lonzo


It's more difficult for me to see it defensively with Cousins. Now you're talking about 2 major USG guys in Cousins and LeBron. BI at 2, isn't really effective on both ends of the floor.

Cousins gets the ball, reads for a couple seconds, then makes the pass. LeBron sometimes does the same, but has always been capable of keeping the ball moving and hitting the open man cross court or just setting up teammates right away.

If LeBron is on the team, and no PG14, put LeBron at C, BI at 3, and Hart at 2. It works on both ends. A LOT of speed and transition opportunities.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
2019 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
babyskyhook wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^My closing 5 would be:

LeBron
Kuzma
Ingram
Hart
Lonzo


Hart isnít closing over Pg13.


My bad.

LeBron
Kuzma
PG14
Hart
Lonzo

Had to take Ingram out because Hart/Kuzma/PG14 are already legit spot up shooters, Zo and LeBron doing all of the playmaking. Ingram isn't as clean of a fit.



You been watching the last few games Mike ? BI's on his way. 3s and mid-range looking good, as well as decisions on when to dish for the most part.


It would be a great problem to have though- a tough time deciding which guys would be on the court to close due to having so much talent on the roster.


I've been watching. It's officially 3 games where BI has been playing this "Efficiency" role that he would excel at.

But I'd rather have Hart at 2, PG14 at 3. Hart can literally switch every position and is more comfortable shooting 3s with accuracy. Lower USG too, which I think is especially important next to Lonzo and LeBron.

It's not a knock on BI. It's just team fit/offense + defensive balance and efficiencies. There's a reason why the best scoring runs have been Ball, Clarkson, Hart as a 3-wing lineup, usually next to Kuzma and LNJ. I don't necessarily think it's because LNJ is playing 5 that's getting that lineup advantages. I think he's been playing more favorable matchups.

Simply put, guys like Zo, PG14, Kuzma can switch 2-3 positions each. Josh Hart and LeBron? 4. That's HUGE.


Am I wrong for wondering if Cousins + LeBron is the better fit/blalance?

Cousins
Kuz/Nance
Lebron
BI/Hart
Lonzo


It's more difficult for me to see it defensively with Cousins. Now you're talking about 2 major USG guys in Cousins and LeBron. BI at 2, isn't really effective on both ends of the floor.

Cousins gets the ball, reads for a couple seconds, then makes the pass. LeBron sometimes does the same, but has always been capable of keeping the ball moving and hitting the open man cross court or just setting up teammates right away.

If LeBron is on the team, and no PG14, put LeBron at C, BI at 3, and Hart at 2. It works on both ends. A LOT of speed and transition opportunities.
would you START LeBron at center?

Lonzo
Hart
George
Kuzma
Lebron


Certainly, this would be one hell of a death lineup. But I think a year from now, BI will be too good to bench for Hart.
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