OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Ingram is better than Brown. He is also better than Tatum.


I'm not sure you can say that as of today.

In 2-3 years? Still to be determined.


Agree, Tatum and Brown are excelling on the biggest stage, the playoffs. Ingram needs to develop his body to be more NBA ready.


Who's to say Kuz and Ingram wouldn't be performing at the same level under the same conditions. This is how conclusions are arrived at within a lab. Which is why I don't believe the analytics tell the complete story when comparing these players.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject:

Those who watched the regular season?
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
The big difference IMO, is that Tatum currently has an NBA body. I think we'll be looking at BI differently once his body gets to Tatum's proportions.


I disagree to an extent. Tatum was a fairly skinny HS senior himself and had a slight transformation between HS and his frosh year at Duke.

But, he's had a lot of NBA training-types around him for a long time, and it shows with his footwork, his reworked shot that he changed exactly last year during the Pre-Draft process, etc.

I think if Ingram was in Tatum's position, he'd look vastly different as a player too. A lot more 3 and D vs handling contact in the paint and being the primary slasher.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^Tatum isn't even that far behind Ingram as a playmaker. It's just not really his role. Horford and Rozier do a solid job of that for him already. Brown and Tatum just need to finish up the plays.


This is why I'm looking at who looked like the better player while they were all on the court together.

I can't say with certainty that Brown/Tatum wouldn't playmake as well as Ingram if they were given his role. Though I don't believe they would.

You can't say with any certainty that Ingram wouldn't put up the same kind of numbers that they are if he were playing on the Celtics with their role.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Endless3D wrote:
What if Ingram doesn't get injured on March 1st, he was showing no signs of slowing down. What if he carries that type of play through March up to the last game of the season in April.

He probably finishes the season averaging 17/5/4.5 then all of a sudden it's a totally different argument.


Tatum is the leading playoff scorer (18.1 ppg) on a team that's 2 games away from making the NBA Finals. And Brown (17.8) is second.


If you put Ingram on Brad Steven's team, and take away his end of the season injury then why can't Ingram be doing the same is my question.

We're judging 2nd year players, so IMO speculating how Ingram would be if he hadn't gotten injured is totally justifiable because he's actually getting to the level he last played on vs. someone whose had 5-6 years and just had a hot stretch.

My original argument wasn't that Ingram is better then Brown/Tatum, but that Ingram could also be putting up impressive playoff performances if he was under Brad Stevens.

Steven's would play him to his strengths and he'd thrive as a playmaker for them IMO
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject:

Edit: no point in debating this further. I'll excuse myself from this discussion.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Those who watched the regular season?


Maybe they'd need to re-watch it.. and apply some objectivity.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^Tatum isn't even that far behind Ingram as a playmaker. It's just not really his role. Horford and Rozier do a solid job of that for him already. Brown and Tatum just need to finish up the plays.


This is why I'm looking at who looked like the better player while they were all on the court together.

I can't say with certainty that Brown/Tatum wouldn't playmake as well as Ingram if they were given his role. Though I don't believe they would.

You can't say with any certainty that Ingram wouldn't put up the same kind of numbers that they are if he were playing on the Celtics with their role.


Tatum might but you put Brown in Ingram's role and I can confidently say he wouldn't play make as well Ingram. Brown's handle is suspect af, he barely puts the ball on the floor unless he's taking it to the rack.

He averaged 1.6 assists and 1.8 turnovers in the regular season. He's averaging 1.5 assists and 1.3 turnovers in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Those who watched the regular season?


Maybe they'd need to re-watch it.. and apply some objectivity.


Oh the irony. I can enjoy our players but still be objective. I wouldn’t have chosen Brown over Ingram but would have picked Tatum, who is the better of the 3 (or 4 if you include Lonzo). Randle is my favorite player but he wasn’t my first choice in that draft. There is nothing wrong with loving our players but recognizing that others might be better.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
2) You don't give any credit for being the leading scorer on a team that's on the verge of the NBA Finals? Really?


That is a team that does it by committee. Here are the stats of their top 4 scorers: Tatum (18.1 PPG in 35 MPG), Brown (17.8 PPG in 32 MPG), Rozier (17.4 PPG in 37 MPG) and Horford (17.1 in 35 MPG). Saying Tatum is the "leading scorer" is misleading. He's not Durant, Thompson, Harden or even Irving out there. For the most part, he is finishing plays, not creating them. Although, yes, there are many times he does create offense and I do give him credit for that. I definitely see him as a Paul Pierce like guy moving forward.

Further, to mention that he on a team that is two games away from the Finals is also misleading because it implies (1) that his team is super good and (2) that he is a main reason for why they are super good. I dispute both premises. The East sucks. While Philly was the 3rd best defensive team in the league this year, Milwaukee was 17th and Cleveland was 29th. He also hasn't been the best player on that team. Horford, to me, is clearly their best player. As far as Tatum goes, and his impact, I'd put him at relatively equal to Rozier, Smart and Brown. Put them in whatever order you want, but I'd say those four (Tatum included) have all been relatively equally important to Boston's success this post season.

I believe that Ingram would be playing just as good or better than Tatum in the playoffs if he was there. This also gets to my point - I'm not going to count it against Ingram simply because he's not there (as a result of his team not being good enough) while giving credit to Tatum because he is there. Lastly, statistically, the one thing that makes Tatum look great is his 3pt shooting - that, and the fact he plays on a winning team, will make the advance stats for him look great. I think, generally, their regular season stats are close enough to make it a subjective judgment call. I just think Ingram is better.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Those who watched the regular season?


Maybe they'd need to re-watch it.. and apply some objectivity.


Oh the irony


I'm not being objective when I said what Ingram is doing could possibly be replicated if Tatum/Brown were under the same conditions. And vice versa?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't see that.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
epak wrote:
The big difference IMO, is that Tatum currently has an NBA body. I think we'll be looking at BI differently once his body gets to Tatum's proportions.


I disagree to an extent. Tatum was a fairly skinny HS senior himself and had a slight transformation between HS and his frosh year at Duke.

But, he's had a lot of NBA training-types around him for a long time, and it shows with his footwork, his reworked shot that he changed exactly last year during the Pre-Draft process, etc.

I think if Ingram was in Tatum's position, he'd look vastly different as a player too. A lot more 3 and D vs handling contact in the paint and being the primary slasher.


Yea, no doubt on the skill set by Tatum.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject:

What is more impressive is how much Tatum's game changed from college to the pros. There was less ball movement and speed in him, Stevens really wired him the right way when he entered the league.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject:

Brown/Tatum/BI will all be legit players in this league. Right now Tatum and brown ahead of BI but like many said in a couple years I think BI will be the best out of the 3. its crazy to think how one ping pong ball we could have had no pick or we could have had tatum and simmons. not saying they will be better than Zo and Ingram but its crazy to think about how everything worked out (i know im kind of babbling but ehh bored and having a bad day )
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject:

PayasoLoco wrote:
Brown/Tatum/BI will all be legit players in this league. Right now Tatum and brown ahead of BI but like many said in a couple years I think BI will be the best out of the 3. its crazy to think how one ping pong ball we could have had no pick or we could have had tatum and simmons. not saying they will be better than Zo and Ingram but its crazy to think about how everything worked out (i know im kind of babbling but ehh bored and having a bad day )


If Tatum was a Laker and BI in Boston, would anyone here be saying that?
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject:

Brad Stevens is inflating the value of Tatum and Brown. Same way he did with I. Thomas, Avery Bradley, and Jae Crowder.

If you switch Ingram and Tatum. Boston would be better off and we'd be worse off.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:45 am    Post subject:

BI would look absolutely incredible under Brad Stevens. He would be able to do a little of everything. He would be running the offense like Horford, going one-one like Tatum and Rozier and 3-D'ing like Brown. Good thing we have him and not them.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
Brown/Tatum/BI will all be legit players in this league. Right now Tatum and brown ahead of BI but like many said in a couple years I think BI will be the best out of the 3. its crazy to think how one ping pong ball we could have had no pick or we could have had tatum and simmons. not saying they will be better than Zo and Ingram but its crazy to think about how everything worked out (i know im kind of babbling but ehh bored and having a bad day )


If Tatum was a Laker and BI in Boston, would anyone here be saying that?


I think whoever between the two was a laker would be favored here and whoever was on Boston would be favored in Boston and, for the most part, nationally. Whether wrong or right, if Tatum was a laker, I would probably say that he is better than Ingram is right now (although I may be wrong about that just as I may be wrong now, because I think they are close enough at the present for it to be a judgment call). However., I would like to believe that i would still think of Ingram as the better long term prospect regardless, as I do with Simmons (by a smidge) right now.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Brad Stevens is inflating the value of Tatum and Brown. Same way he did with I. Thomas, Avery Bradley, and Jae Crowder.

If you switch Ingram and Tatum. Boston would be better off and we'd be worse off.


Tatum is a far more skilled player at this stage than Ingram, so I doubt it, just as i have my doubts of the star predictions for him, which i think are based in some reality with a dollop or three of our team layered on.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
Brown/Tatum/BI will all be legit players in this league. Right now Tatum and brown ahead of BI but like many said in a couple years I think BI will be the best out of the 3. its crazy to think how one ping pong ball we could have had no pick or we could have had tatum and simmons. not saying they will be better than Zo and Ingram but its crazy to think about how everything worked out (i know im kind of babbling but ehh bored and having a bad day )


If Tatum was a Laker and BI in Boston, would anyone here be saying that?


My dream was to have Ingram and Tatum
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Brad Stevens is inflating the value of Tatum and Brown. Same way he did with I. Thomas, Avery Bradley, and Jae Crowder.

If you switch Ingram and Tatum. Boston would be better off and we'd be worse off.


Tatum is a far more skilled player at this stage than Ingram, so I doubt it, just as i have my doubts of the star predictions for him, which i think are based in some reality with a dollop or three of our team layered on.

But switch Brown and Ingram and I think kikanga's hypothetical would be correct. Tatum's just on a different level than Brown and BI.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject:

I guess I'm a bit high on Brown apparently, but I think he's in the same tier as those guys..
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject:

Tatum's offensive skills are on a whole different level right now. The ability to score from so many different spots on the floor. BI just isn't there yet. Maybe growing into his body more will help.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject:

Around December/January this thread went a couple pages on trading Brandon Ingram straight up for Myles Turner.

Curious, how does everyone feel about such a trade now? I wouldn't do it but maybe some of you guys still would
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject:

aye
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