OFFICIAL BRANDON INGRAM THREAD
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:51 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
You get burned for saying dumb things.. Nothing dumb or outrageous about stating Tatum and Brown are better at the moment. The argument can be made, though I don't agree with it.


Of course you don't agree with it, smart guy


Point is.. you're not getting "burned" in here unless you say something dumb. And to suggest that those who are high on Ingram would "burn" those who think Tatum is better is another one of your falsehoods..
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:57 pm    Post subject:

Lowest Merion wrote:
Luminous8 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
1) Per 36 numbers are going to favor a guy on a team that plays at the 2nd fastest pace in the NBA as opposed to the 22nd fastest pace. And Tatum's numbers are still better despite that.

2) You don't give any credit for being the leading scorer on a team that's on the verge of the NBA Finals? Really?

3) I think Tatum's a better defender than Ingram.

4) Their one-number analytics aren't even close.


What numbers does Tatum have that are better besides TS?


Really? Basically every advanced stat that exists. PER, OWS, DWS, WS, WS/48, VORP, etc.


They're both playing different roles, with different coaches, and different teammates. All these variables effect their numbers. Unless you can reproduce the exact same set of circumstance in a vacuum I don't believe you can say with certainty that Tatum is better. I also believe that he's good enough at this point to where I wouldn't press an argument for Ingram. Tatum being better than Ingram is an argument that can be made. I don't think there's enough separation between them to be unequivocal for either one though.

Ingram was the better player when they were all on the floor together, and yes it is a small sample size.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:00 am    Post subject:

Lakesh0wtime wrote:
I’m literally the biggest ingram fan and I will even say that Tatum is better. Tatum is who I wanted to draft


I loved Tatum as well. Liked him more than Fultz, IIRC, last year. I think I had Ball #1 and Tatum #2 in the end, but went back and forth on that. Was right there with Mike re: Tatum. That being said, I think at the end of the regular season, Ingram had a better season than Tatum. Many people might have picked Tatum, but I think that mostly came from Tatum being on a better team. Had Tatum peformed exactly the same way, but been on a 35 win team, I don't think he gets the same hype. Similarly, the needle has moved quite a lot for many, IMO, because Tatum has been playing in the post season (and succeeding there) while Ingram has been sight unseen for like three months.

What's great about these debates is that, barring some major injury, there is always another season which can be used to spark the debate once more.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Brad Stevens is inflating the value of Tatum and Brown. Same way he did with I. Thomas, Avery Bradley, and Jae Crowder.

If you switch Ingram and Tatum. Boston would be better off and we'd be worse off.


Agree about Brown. Stevens is able to use his defensive skills very well and he's feasting on the lack of perimeter defense of Cleveland. He's usually the one attacking their weakest link on defense. Good player, but not great.

Disagree about Tatum; he's a stud. It's good to play under a great coach, but this guy would be great even under Ty Lue.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:45 am    Post subject:

I hope Brandon uses all this attention Tatum and Brown are getting to fuel his workouts this summer. It's common sense, but he should strive to be the best young wing in the league. Footwork, shooting, strength, rinse and repeat.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:42 am    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
^Tatum isn't even that far behind Ingram as a playmaker. It's just not really his role. Horford and Rozier do a solid job of that for him already. Brown and Tatum just need to finish up the plays.


Strongly disagree. Guys who are good playmakers will naturally make ays for others. Tatum.simply doesn't do this. Even Kuzma who I harp on for being a bit of a blackhole is a better playmaker than Tatum. You're strongly biased toward Tatum though so I understand.


I agree they have different playtypes. I don't agree that Tatum necessarily, doesn't have the skill to do so.

I don't think it's bias either. I said he was a playmaker for Duke for 1 month when the playtypes changed. I said it multiple times during that season.

Look at February.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jayson-tatum-1/splits/2017

You don't just suddenly double your assist average out of nowhere and then completely lose your skill to the Monstars of Space Jam.

I can't even tell you how much game tape you have to watch to see Duke do a half-revamp of their offensive system, before reverting it back to garbage come tourney time.

That playmaking is actually, no different from what Okogie does now; 1-2 dribble, direct pass. It may not be as obvious or direct, but it's there. That playmaking, is why I had Tatum #3. Otherwise, I would have dropped him because passing is a critical part to a player's individual success at the NBA level. February Tatum was the Tatum I saw that gets his upside at the NBA level, because that's where the NBA is going to. He's actually ahead of his own A/TO ratio compared to Duke by a considerably margin.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:50 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
Lakesh0wtime wrote:
I’m literally the biggest ingram fan and I will even say that Tatum is better. Tatum is who I wanted to draft


I loved Tatum as well. Liked him more than Fultz, IIRC, last year. I think I had Ball #1 and Tatum #2 in the end, but went back and forth on that. Was right there with Mike re: Tatum. That being said, I think at the end of the regular season, Ingram had a better season than Tatum. Many people might have picked Tatum, but I think that mostly came from Tatum being on a better team. Had Tatum peformed exactly the same way, but been on a 35 win team, I don't think he gets the same hype. Similarly, the needle has moved quite a lot for many, IMO, because Tatum has been playing in the post season (and succeeding there) while Ingram has been sight unseen for like three months.

What's great about these debates is that, barring some major injury, there is always another season which can be used to spark the debate once more.


I don't really think they're comparable seasons tbh. Tatum has had the same role all year. Ingram changed archetype and playtype frequency almost month-to-month. Iso to +2 plays of off ball by December to PG play by February into March. Numbers are going to be all over the place.

If it was PG Ingram the entire season, then yeah, I can buy Ingram > Tatum this year. But I didn't forget how he struggled at the beginning of the season, while Tatum was white-hot fire behind the arc.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/splits/2018

But then again, I got criticized for thinking Tatum hypothetically would be ahead of Ingram if they both came out of the same draft, so, shrug.

Sidenote. That narrative of Tatum as a bad finisher is a pretty poor one. I don't care of it's a miss or a blocked shot, I care about FG% at the rim.

Tatum during the playoffs: 65.8% within 3', up from 62.9% regular season.

I guess we forgot that Ingram was an awful finisher until the last two months of his rookie year too.
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Lakesh0wtime
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:56 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
Lakesh0wtime wrote:
I’m literally the biggest ingram fan and I will even say that Tatum is better. Tatum is who I wanted to draft


I loved Tatum as well. Liked him more than Fultz, IIRC, last year. I think I had Ball #1 and Tatum #2 in the end, but went back and forth on that. Was right there with Mike re: Tatum. That being said, I think at the end of the regular season, Ingram had a better season than Tatum. Many people might have picked Tatum, but I think that mostly came from Tatum being on a better team. Had Tatum peformed exactly the same way, but been on a 35 win team, I don't think he gets the same hype. Similarly, the needle has moved quite a lot for many, IMO, because Tatum has been playing in the post season (and succeeding there) while Ingram has been sight unseen for like three months.

What's great about these debates is that, barring some major injury, there is always another season which can be used to spark the debate once more.


I don't really think they're comparable seasons tbh. Tatum has had the same role all year. Ingram changed archetype and playtype frequency almost month-to-month. Iso to +2 plays of off ball by December to PG play by February into March. Numbers are going to be all over the place.

If it was PG Ingram the entire season, then yeah, I can buy Ingram > Tatum this year. But I didn't forget how he struggled at the beginning of the season, while Tatum was white-hot fire behind the arc.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/splits/2018

But then again, I got criticized for thinking Tatum hypothetically would be ahead of Ingram if they both came out of the same draft, so, shrug.

Sidenote. That narrative of Tatum as a bad finisher is a pretty poor one. I don't care of it's a miss or a blocked shot, I care about FG% at the rim.

Tatum during the playoffs: 65.8% within 3', up from 62.9% regular season.

I guess we forgot that Ingram was an awful finisher until the last two months of his rookie year too.


Tatum also literally went dead mid season and hit a huge wall. So both guys had parts of their season where they didn’t play well. But Tatum was a rookie. I think at this point Tatum is much more polished and smooth with his game than Ingram. But I do think Ingram has the potential to be a better player because of his measurements and his versatility. Just gotta wait and see if he does.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:09 am    Post subject:

Quote:

Tatum also literally went dead mid season and hit a huge wall. So both guys had parts of their season where they didn’t play well. But Tatum was a rookie. I think at this point Tatum is much more polished and smooth with his game than Ingram. But I do think Ingram has the potential to be a better player because of his measurements and his versatility. Just gotta wait and see if he does.


That's what makes it crazy. His two "dead" months are on par with Ingram's 1st and 3rd month statistically. Everything else is fire. He's so far ahead of draft perceived expectations, just like Ingram is. They're just on two different paths.

People who say Ingram is better are going to say so because of versatility.

People who say Tatum is better are going to point out shooting and defense.

Everyone values those things differently.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Tatum also literally went dead mid season and hit a huge wall. So both guys had parts of their season where they didn’t play well. But Tatum was a rookie. I think at this point Tatum is much more polished and smooth with his game than Ingram. But I do think Ingram has the potential to be a better player because of his measurements and his versatility. Just gotta wait and see if he does.


That's what makes it crazy. His two "dead" months are on par with Ingram's 1st and 3rd month statistically. Everything else is fire. He's so far ahead of draft perceived expectations, just like Ingram is. They're just on two different paths.

People who say Ingram is better are going to say so because of versatility.

People who say Tatum is better are going to point out shooting and defense.

Everyone values those things differently.


Well said, and that's exactly why I can at least buy the Tatum vs Ingram debate regardless of my opinion on it. It's the Brown vs Ingram debate that frustrates me.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:11 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

Tatum also literally went dead mid season and hit a huge wall. So both guys had parts of their season where they didn’t play well. But Tatum was a rookie. I think at this point Tatum is much more polished and smooth with his game than Ingram. But I do think Ingram has the potential to be a better player because of his measurements and his versatility. Just gotta wait and see if he does.


That's what makes it crazy. His two "dead" months are on par with Ingram's 1st and 3rd month statistically. Everything else is fire. He's so far ahead of draft perceived expectations, just like Ingram is. They're just on two different paths.

People who say Ingram is better are going to say so because of versatility.

People who say Tatum is better are going to point out shooting and defense.

Everyone values those things differently.


Yup for the record last summer I was hoping togod we would have both haha. Did we even work him out? I feel like he was never under consideration
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject:

Luminous8 wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Jesusdelonla wrote:
why can't we just agree that Tatum and J Brown are better then ingram right now but in 2/3 years it will/might change?


They will burn you


Tatum.its a arguable, but Brown isnt on BI or Tatum's level. He's LITERALLY a 3&D guy only. No playmaking whatsoever. No vision, terrible decision making. He's a finisher and defender.

Agreed, but he has the foundation to develop into more. Stevens has been great at keeping Brown under control rather than let him get away with his bad iso-scoring habits he displayed in HS and at Cal. On a different team Jaylen could've gone full Wiggins, and you never want a guy to go full Wiggins.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject:

Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject:

Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


2 months vs. 1 full season of stats?
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:24 am    Post subject:

Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


Jayson Tatum was 35th in RPM.
Jaylen Brown was 71st in RPM.
Brandon Ingram was 323rd in RPM.

This does not count the part where Tatum & Brown are the Top 2 scorers in the playoffs on a team that's about to go to the NBA Finals.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:28 am    Post subject:

Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


Even if true it is appropriate. Ingram last played in March in a season that ended in April. Tatum played every month of the season but if 33% of the season makes you happy, go with that.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject:

Ingram stats February & March: 17.6 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 5.5 apg while shooting over 50% from the field and 50% from 3pt line in 13 games.

Brown (playoffs): 17.8 ppg., 5.2 rpg., 1.5 apg. while shooting over 50% from the field and 40% from the 3pt line in 13 games.

Tatum (playoffs): 18.1 ppg., 4.5 rpg., 3.1 apg., while shooting 46% from the field and 32% from the 3pt line in 14 games.

I understand that Brown and Tatum are doing it in the playoffs under the bright lights with teams gearing up to stop them, but you can't fault Ingram for his team not being in the playoffs. Ingram might have stepped up his game in the playoffs much like Tatum and Brown did.

I think Tatum is closer to Ingram than Brown due to his age and all around game.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


2 months vs. 1 full season of stats?


No 2 months where he played 13 games vs. playoffs where Brown played 13 games and Tatum played 14 games.

Edit: If you want to compare season stats, Ingram has them both beat.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject:

Hye4life wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


2 months vs. 1 full season of stats?


No 2 months where he played 13 games vs. playoffs where Brown played 13 games and Tatum played 14 games.

Edit: If you want to compare season stats, Ingram has them both beat.


I can't buy that man. The level of defenses being played in the playoffs and the idea that Boston is in the Western Conference Finals is pretty telling about how strong their production really is.

Season stats don't put into context the roles for each player.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject:

Here we go with the "he was good for a couple months" argument. Have we learned nothing from Jordan Clarkson?
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


Jayson Tatum was 35th in RPM.
Jaylen Brown was 71st in RPM.
Brandon Ingram was 323rd in RPM.

This does not count the part where Tatum & Brown are the Top 2 scorers in the playoffs on a team that's about to go to the NBA Finals.


Yes, lets compare RPM for a player that played on losing team with no other All-star to 2 players that played on a winning team with 2 other All-stars (Irving and Horford) in a weaker conference. Using team related stats doesn't work when comparing 2 players.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


2 months vs. 1 full season of stats?


No 2 months where he played 13 games vs. playoffs where Brown played 13 games and Tatum played 14 games.

Edit: If you want to compare season stats, Ingram has them both beat.


I can't buy that man. The level of defenses being played in the playoffs and the idea that Boston is in the Western Conference Finals is pretty telling about how strong their production really is.

Season stats don't put into context the roles for each player.


Exactly, boosting one players status because of "level of defenses" in the playoffs AS COMPARED TO ANOTHER PLAYER who hasn't had the chance to play in the playoffs is not fair either. Tatum and Brown deserve credit for how they are playing, but using it against Ingram who hasn't had the chance to play in the playoffs is not really a fair comparison.

Edit: As for different roles, the Lakers trust Ingram to lead the offense and be a top offensive option; he is the focus of the opposing teams defense. Celtics have 2 All-Stars that carry the weight and defenses don't focus on Brown and Tatum as much.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject:

Hye4life wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


Jayson Tatum was 35th in RPM.
Jaylen Brown was 71st in RPM.
Brandon Ingram was 323rd in RPM.

This does not count the part where Tatum & Brown are the Top 2 scorers in the playoffs on a team that's about to go to the NBA Finals.


Yes, lets compare RPM for a player that played on losing team with no other All-star to 2 players that played on a winning team with 2 other All-stars (Irving and Horford) in a weaker conference. Using team related stats doesn't work when comparing 2 players.


You would think playing on a team with no clear star would provide Ingram with an opportunity to shine. When Irving and Hayward went out Tatum and Brown took their games to another level. I think Ingram will be good eventually but he's not there yet.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject:

defense wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


Jayson Tatum was 35th in RPM.
Jaylen Brown was 71st in RPM.
Brandon Ingram was 323rd in RPM.

This does not count the part where Tatum & Brown are the Top 2 scorers in the playoffs on a team that's about to go to the NBA Finals.


Yes, lets compare RPM for a player that played on losing team with no other All-star to 2 players that played on a winning team with 2 other All-stars (Irving and Horford) in a weaker conference. Using team related stats doesn't work when comparing 2 players.


You would think playing on a team with no clear star would provide Ingram with an opportunity to shine. When Irving and Hayward went out Tatum and Brown took their games to another level. I think Ingram will be good eventually but he's not there yet.


Do you even understand how RPM works? I'm not trying to be rude or anything, just curious. Hayward was out all season, Irving and Horford were the focus of the opposing teams for 90% of the season.

Again RPM is a team-driven stat. If you are on a good team, you will have a high RPM. Bad team= low RPM.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject:

Hye4life wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Hye4life wrote:
Funny thing is, take away all the hype that Tatum and Brown are getting, going by strictly the #'s, what they are doing is very similar to what Ingram averaged in February and March when he last played.

People claiming Brown and Tatum are better than Ingram are definitely experiencing recency bias.


Jayson Tatum was 35th in RPM.
Jaylen Brown was 71st in RPM.
Brandon Ingram was 323rd in RPM.

This does not count the part where Tatum & Brown are the Top 2 scorers in the playoffs on a team that's about to go to the NBA Finals.


Yes, lets compare RPM for a player that played on losing team with no other All-star to 2 players that played on a winning team with 2 other All-stars (Irving and Horford) in a weaker conference. Using team related stats doesn't work when comparing 2 players.


That isn't how RPM works, which is why guys like Semi Ojeleye (519th), Abdel Nader (516th), Greg Monroe (357th), and Marcus Morris (328th) rank even lower than Ingram despite playing on the same team that Brown and Tatum play on.
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