Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:37 am Post subject:
Dave20 wrote:
Durant was a bit more athletic but Ingram has the mindset of being a very good defender even at his young age. You combine Ingram's silky smooth scoring with his defense and in 3 years were talking about an elite top 10 two way player.
Yeah, Ingram may never get to KD's level, but I can see him developing into a Paul George caliber star. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Many of you will probably disagree but.. I would like to see Ingram at the two for the long hall. He's agile enough to stay with most shooting guards. This also gives us a size advantage when apposing teams try to hide PG's on defense. If Magic was drafted now odds are the coaching staff would force him to play PF. I think we have a tendency to pigeon hole players into certain positions based on size as appose to ability. Long term he would flourish at the two and cause a lot of problems.
I like that idea a lot but the personal on the roster will make it tough to do that. If we sign a wing in FA then I'm all for it but as the roster currently stands, hes the only quality wing we have and will likely have to start the year at the 3.
hey @GT , back to our discussion about Ingram's release point. I found some good footage showing his outward/low release, showing how it's way to easily interrupted/contested.
here we have his shot being contested by a guard, this release is clearly outward, and the contest from this 6'2" player seems to really effect his shot - brick.
same here, stroke is clearly interrupted , by the guard defender.
you can see the follow-through is cut off/interrupted and he misses short.
same here
even here you can see how his stroke is kind of interrupted by this guard defender, but he completes the stroke and makes the shot. If you watch the whole video, his follow through will get cut off by a defender often, and he'll still make the shot --- the fact that it gets interrupted is still a bad sign, and it is the reason for a lot of his misses.
Part of the reason his stroke gets interrupted so much is because he has a lot of waisted motion(cockback) on his shot. Any wasted motion, obviously makes your stroke longer time wise. Combine that with the fact that he shoots from the low-mid shoulder and not top of the head, makes it easier to interrupt imo as it's lower.
I know SportsScience measured his shooting stroke timing and stuff, but he didn't cockc the ball back as much with them, as he shortened his stroke for midrange, and it also wasn't game speed shots.
If anyone wants proof that players do adjust their strokes naturally for different ranges, here you go
http://rowvid.com/?v=KSK77Asxhpo&t=362&s=0.25 His 3pt stroke VS short midrange. You can see that the 3pt shot is lower than his SportsScience vid, and it also has more cockback, you can watch any 2 outta 3 shots of his from this Duke season from deep, and you'll see the large amount of cockback, more than the SportsScience video
And also FTs https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.dtc/22167_ingram_free_throwf.jpg
Which, he didn't shoot well from the line with this shortened stroke.
edit: and even in the DX vid which i got all of this footage from , it mentions that Durant is able to change release points.
Watch Ingram's Lakers workout. That release point etc seems to have changed
So how is it possible Zubac has more forum pages than Ingram? I'm excited to see both players, and I hope Zubac shows us how awesome our scouting is once again.... But, come on now... Really?
You ever use SLICKDEALS? The best bargains, the price mistakes, etc. tend to gain the most attention. People love FREE stuff! Think of Ingram as a pre-order of the latest basketball machine on the market complete with wingspan, sick hands and a three point shot. Lakers pre-ordered and paid full retail #2 price, and it'll be ready for shipment maybe as early as July 8. We already have an idea what this product will be like. It's a premium product with a premium price.
Now think of Zubac as a Slickdeals price mistake. NBAdraft had him at #16 in their mock. 32 must be a price mistake, a computer glitch, so there's a lot of discussion and excitement. NBA teams driving down to their Zubac retailer hoping to snag one at 32, but they're all out of stock. We snagged one and we're excited. Lots of discussion here because we think we got a bargain.
You kidding?!!! Of course I use Slickdeals. I check LG first, but SD is always my second click! lol...
Good read. Can't wait for summer league. This quote reminds me of Dloading:
Quote:
"Even Coach K thinks he can be a better coach each and every day," Ingram says. "So if he thinks that, I can definitely be a better basketball player. You're always becoming; you've never arrived. And I use that day by day just for me to work hard each and every day, and know that no matter how good I worked out today, no matter how good I thought I was today, I can always get better and always be a better person."
Joined: 26 May 2016 Posts: 7825 Location: Long Beach
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:10 am Post subject:
BigGameHames wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Many of you will probably disagree but.. I would like to see Ingram at the two for the long hall. He's agile enough to stay with most shooting guards. This also gives us a size advantage when apposing teams try to hide PG's on defense. If Magic was drafted now odds are the coaching staff would force him to play PF. I think we have a tendency to pigeon hole players into certain positions based on size as appose to ability. Long term he would flourish at the two and cause a lot of problems.
I like that idea a lot but the personal on the roster will make it tough to do that. If we sign a wing in FA then I'm all for it but as the roster currently stands, hes the only quality wing we have and will likely have to start the year at the 3.
Yea, do to personnel he will most likely be playing sf. However I do believe he would thrive at the sg position for the entirety of his career. Especially if you pair him with a long small forward.
So how is it possible Zubac has more forum pages than Ingram? I'm excited to see both players, and I hope Zubac shows us how awesome our scouting is once again.... But, come on now... Really?
You ever use SLICKDEALS? The best bargains, the price mistakes, etc. tend to gain the most attention. People love FREE stuff! Think of Ingram as a pre-order of the latest basketball machine on the market complete with wingspan, sick hands and a three point shot. Lakers pre-ordered and paid full retail #2 price, and it'll be ready for shipment maybe as early as July 8. We already have an idea what this product will be like. It's a premium product with a premium price.
Now think of Zubac as a Slickdeals price mistake. NBAdraft had him at #16 in their mock. 32 must be a price mistake, a computer glitch, so there's a lot of discussion and excitement. NBA teams driving down to their Zubac retailer hoping to snag one at 32, but they're all out of stock. We snagged one and we're excited. Lots of discussion here because we think we got a bargain.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29286 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:02 pm Post subject:
I posted this in the draft thread in February. My opinion on Ingram hasn't changed since then.
kikanga wrote:
Ingram is a safe #2 pick, and I wouldn't complain if we take him at 1. If he has a natural improvement that most NBA players have from age 19-21, he's an average starting SF in the NBA. This natural improvement I'm referencing is part skill (ball handling and shooting repetition) and part physical (added strength, weight, and agility). If Ingram ends up having an above-average work ethic, he'll become an above-average starting SF in the league.
These KD and PG13 comparisons seem a little premature to me at this point.
Gotta see him against NBA competition before I start making comparisons to 2 of the top-4 SFs in the league. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
I posted this in the draft thread in February. My opinion on Ingram hasn't changed since then.
kikanga wrote:
Ingram is a safe #2 pick, and I wouldn't complain if we take him at 1. If he has a natural improvement that most NBA players have from age 19-21, he's an average starting SF in the NBA. This natural improvement I'm referencing is part skill (ball handling and shooting repetition) and part physical (added strength, weight, and agility). If Ingram ends up having an above-average work ethic, he'll become an above-average starting SF in the league.
These KD and PG13 comparisons seem a little premature to me at this point.
Gotta see him against NBA competition before I start making comparisons to 2 of the top-4 SFs in the league.
KD sure, but PG13 wasn't projected to be what he was. I think Ingram has a ceiling of a K Lenard or Paul George
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144462 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:14 pm Post subject:
SocalDevin wrote:
Many of you will probably disagree but.. I would like to see Ingram at the two for the long hall. He's agile enough to stay with most shooting guards. This also gives us a size advantage when apposing teams try to hide PG's on defense. If Magic was drafted now odds are the coaching staff would force him to play PF. I think we have a tendency to pigeon hole players into certain positions based on size as appose to ability. Long term he would flourish at the two and cause a lot of problems.
Why don't we move from the 90's to 2016 and just say that Ingram will be a wing player for us. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:51 pm Post subject:
Russell1 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
These KD and PG13 comparisons seem a little premature to me at this point.
Gotta see him against NBA competition before I start making comparisons to 2 of the top-4 SFs in the league.
KD sure, but PG13 wasn't projected to be what he was. I think Ingram has a ceiling of a K Lenard or Paul George
Agreed with the bolded statement. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 11197 Location: The Other Perspective
Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:53 pm Post subject:
venturalakersfan wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Many of you will probably disagree but.. I would like to see Ingram at the two for the long hall. He's agile enough to stay with most shooting guards. This also gives us a size advantage when apposing teams try to hide PG's on defense. If Magic was drafted now odds are the coaching staff would force him to play PF. I think we have a tendency to pigeon hole players into certain positions based on size as appose to ability. Long term he would flourish at the two and cause a lot of problems.
Why don't we move from the 90's to 2016 and just say that Ingram will be a wing player for us.
I wonder if Ingram would be effective starting alongside an SF like Parsons, Barnes, Batum, or Derozan? I'd be ecstatic with that kind of versatility. _________________ "Chick lived and breathed Lakers basketball…but he was also fair and objective and called every game the way it was played."
-from Chick: His Unpublished Memoirs and the Memories of Those Who Knew Him
hey @GT , back to our discussion about Ingram's release point. I found some good footage showing his outward/low release, showing how it's way to easily interrupted/contested.
here we have his shot being contested by a guard, this release is clearly outward, and the contest from this 6'2" player seems to really effect his shot - brick.
same here, stroke is clearly interrupted , by the guard defender.
you can see the follow-through is cut off/interrupted and he misses short.
same here
even here you can see how his stroke is kind of interrupted by this guard defender, but he completes the stroke and makes the shot. If you watch the whole video, his follow through will get cut off by a defender often, and he'll still make the shot --- the fact that it gets interrupted is still a bad sign, and it is the reason for a lot of his misses.
Part of the reason his stroke gets interrupted so much is because he has a lot of waisted motion(cockback) on his shot. Any wasted motion, obviously makes your stroke longer time wise. Combine that with the fact that he shoots from the low-mid shoulder and not top of the head, makes it easier to interrupt imo as it's lower.
I know SportsScience measured his shooting stroke timing and stuff, but he didn't cockc the ball back as much with them, as he shortened his stroke for midrange, and it also wasn't game speed shots.
If anyone wants proof that players do adjust their strokes naturally for different ranges, here you go
http://rowvid.com/?v=KSK77Asxhpo&t=362&s=0.25 His 3pt stroke VS short midrange. You can see that the 3pt shot is lower than his SportsScience vid, and it also has more cockback, you can watch any 2 outta 3 shots of his from this Duke season from deep, and you'll see the large amount of cockback, more than the SportsScience video
And also FTs https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.dtc/22167_ingram_free_throwf.jpg
Which, he didn't shoot well from the line with this shortened stroke.
edit: and even in the DX vid which i got all of this footage from , it mentions that Durant is able to change release points.
Watch Ingram's Lakers workout. That release point etc seems to have changed
Looks pretty much the same. In fact in his Chad ford workout his form looks lower than in college
Lakers workout was too short, a lot of midrange shots too
Edit: short range
http://media.oregonlive.com/blazers_impact/photo/nic-batum1jpg-3c99a13181d06229.jpg
Batum was pretty damn skinny entering the league. Draftnet has him at 210lbs, so 10lbs heavier than Ingram will be by the seasons start.
Can't lie today though, Batum looks like he has more weight in his trunk than Ingram's body type may manifest. Durant has some weight in his midsection as well.
Greek Freak was the same exact weight as Ingram entering the draft. He still has no weight in his midsection - although, he does have some muscle now. Looks like Ingram has some that same muscle potential fortunately
http://media.oregonlive.com/blazers_impact/photo/nic-batum1jpg-3c99a13181d06229.jpg
Batum was pretty damn skinny entering the league. Draftnet has him at 210lbs, so 10lbs heavier than Ingram will be by the seasons start.
Can't lie today though, Batum looks like he has more weight in his trunk than Ingram's body type may manifest. Durant has some weight in his midsection as well.
Greek Freak was the same exact weight as Ingram entering the draft. He still has no weight in his midsection - although, he does have some muscle now. Looks like Ingram has some that same muscle potential fortunately
Is it unrealistic to hope for Ingram to get to 210 at the start of the season? There's still 1/3 of a year left for him to grow
http://media.oregonlive.com/blazers_impact/photo/nic-batum1jpg-3c99a13181d06229.jpg
Batum was pretty damn skinny entering the league. Draftnet has him at 210lbs, so 10lbs heavier than Ingram will be by the seasons start.
Can't lie today though, Batum looks like he has more weight in his trunk than Ingram's body type may manifest. Durant has some weight in his midsection as well.
Greek Freak was the same exact weight as Ingram entering the draft. He still has no weight in his midsection - although, he does have some muscle now. Looks like Ingram has some that same muscle potential fortunately
Is it unrealistic to hope for Ingram to get to 210 at the start of the season? There's still 1/3 of a year left for him to grow
hmm. I think a skinny player can put on like 5lbs and sustain it through the season. Porzingis put on 11lbs last summer, and lost it all during the season. Anthony Davis bulks up all summer, but doesn't sustain it.
Ingram did gain 25lbs senior-freshman summer, and then lost 5 lbs during the season --- but he was overtly underweight, so, he was able to keep most of it on.
.. I don't think it's natural for these skinny body types to put on 10lbs really easily. if he can put on 5 each summer, he'll be an acceptable 210-215 by his 3rd year. In his prime he'll be 220+ .
Not bad, but I think it takes time.
http://media.oregonlive.com/blazers_impact/photo/nic-batum1jpg-3c99a13181d06229.jpg
Batum was pretty damn skinny entering the league. Draftnet has him at 210lbs, so 10lbs heavier than Ingram will be by the seasons start.
Can't lie today though, Batum looks like he has more weight in his trunk than Ingram's body type may manifest. Durant has some weight in his midsection as well.
Greek Freak was the same exact weight as Ingram entering the draft. He still has no weight in his midsection - although, he does have some muscle now. Looks like Ingram has some that same muscle potential fortunately
Is it unrealistic to hope for Ingram to get to 210 at the start of the season? There's still 1/3 of a year left for him to grow
hmm. I think a skinny player can put on like 5lbs and sustain it through the season. Porzingis put on 11lbs last summer, and lost it all during the season. Anthony Davis bulks up all summer, but doesn't sustain it.
Ingram did gain 25lbs senior-freshman summer, and then lost 5 lbs during the season --- but he was overtly underweight, so, he was able to keep most of it on.
.. I don't think it's natural for these skinny body types to put on 10lbs really easily. if he can put on 5 each summer, he'll be an acceptable 210-215 by his 3rd year. In his prime he'll be 220+ .
Not bad, but I think it takes time.
Yea that's what I thought. I guess he'll have to surprise us then.
http://media.oregonlive.com/blazers_impact/photo/nic-batum1jpg-3c99a13181d06229.jpg
Batum was pretty damn skinny entering the league. Draftnet has him at 210lbs, so 10lbs heavier than Ingram will be by the seasons start.
Can't lie today though, Batum looks like he has more weight in his trunk than Ingram's body type may manifest. Durant has some weight in his midsection as well.
Greek Freak was the same exact weight as Ingram entering the draft. He still has no weight in his midsection - although, he does have some muscle now. Looks like Ingram has some that same muscle potential fortunately
Is it unrealistic to hope for Ingram to get to 210 at the start of the season? There's still 1/3 of a year left for him to grow
hmm. I think a skinny player can put on like 5lbs and sustain it through the season. Porzingis put on 11lbs last summer, and lost it all during the season. Anthony Davis bulks up all summer, but doesn't sustain it.
Ingram did gain 25lbs senior-freshman summer, and then lost 5 lbs during the season --- but he was overtly underweight, so, he was able to keep most of it on.
.. I don't think it's natural for these skinny body types to put on 10lbs really easily. if he can put on 5 each summer, he'll be an acceptable 210-215 by his 3rd year. In his prime he'll be 220+ .
Not bad, but I think it takes time.
Yea that's what I thought. I guess he'll have to surprise us then.
yea, he's something of a project. Didn't watch too much of him at Duke - but caught some of a game on ESPNU last week - his lack of weight definitely effects him a lot on the court. Maybe we have to wait til his 3rd season when he is 210 to see him really come into his own. I don't have a problem with being patient with him. He can still refine his skills and do his best with what he has until then - he'll definitely show the potential ---- he can refine his handle and blow by, but maybe not finish. Or he can stay in front of his man but get bullied a bit. We'll still see the potential
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