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Worthy42
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 19952
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 Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| anpherknee wrote: | | nash wrote: | | anpherknee wrote: | | 55 wrote: | | tox wrote: | | 55 wrote: | No need to throw race into this conversation.
One is cocky, self proclaimed "ice in my veins" but shoots a low percentage.
The other is making good progress while starting out as a bench player.
If Ingram becomes cocky, lackadaisical, and his game drops off, I'm sure he'll get the same backlash. Heck, he was already called the "worst player in the league". |
Because he was? |
That's the point. He got criticized when he didn't perform. |
but where 👏 was 👏 his 👏 P 👏 and 👏 M 👏 thread 👏 tho 👏
 |
Ingram fans can live with someone calling him the next Wesley Johnson without freaking out so a P&M thread was not needed the same way there is not a JC or Julius Randle P&M threads and I assure you they were way more criticized than Russell. You can even find at least one "trade Jordan Clarkson for someone" thread. |
as one of the biggest julius randle stans on this board,
I can tell you that is super false
of course people said ridiculous things about julius & JC, but the dlo thread was a different animal entirely
dlo's thread is one of the most unique spaces i've ever seen on the internet
and that P&M thread wasn't born of sensitivity towards criticism as much as it was made for those who had a compulsion to criticize the young mans every move not even a month into the season
think about that: people wanted to trash this kid so bad that a P&M thread was made like 2 weeks into his rookie season. PEOPLE COULD NOT WAIT to tell you how much they didn't want him on the team
that P&M thread is like 80 pages, even with mods telling "dlo supporters" to stay out of it
it was amazing
if you wanna say supporters/fans (idk why we need these labels as fans of the team but whatevs) were sensitive to criticism, then I think its every bit as fair to say people who didn't like him were extremely sensitive to praise as well, and it all came together to make a glorious dumpster fire that gave me many a giggle
tl;dr- the criticisms in this thread aint got nothing on the war of russell 2015
which, of course, is a good thing  |
Give this man a 4Loko! |
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nash
Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: |
That's an oxymoron. You want objective?
Rookie Year BPM = -1.8 (Ingram = -3.8)
Rookie Year RPM = -3.66 (Ingram = -5.44)
Rookie Year VORP = +0.1 (Ingram = -0.6)
Rookie Year TPA Per Game = -1.07 (Ingram = -2.18)
Yet a staggering difference in how they're treated. Cuz it ain't objective at all. |
Cumulative stats have to be taken with a grain of salt here, because Ingram right now isn't remotely the same player that he was at the start of the season. Not only are his stats better, but he's doing things on the court that he wasn't doing earlier this year. He's attacking the basket effectively, while earlier this year he couldn't attack at all.
Bottom line is that Ingram jumps out as a big time prospect on both sides of the court. You have been criticizing his defense in this thread, which is interesting to say the least. He's a rookie, so consistency is going to be an issue, but he projects as a future elite defender based on the flashes he has shown. You yourself have said that countless times earlier this year. Qnd kikanga posted these stats regarding his defense:
| kikanga wrote: |
First, Defense. Look at this chart for opponent field goal % for this year. http://tinyurl.com/z7fenuc
10-20 feet from the hoop. Ingram is our best defender in terms of opponent FG%. 5-10 feet he's our best defender out of all the young guys. Lou and Black are very close as well in terms of %s from 10-20 feet. But they aren't defending as many shot attempts as Ingram. He can guard 2 players in 1 possession with his length and instincts.
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I think it goes without saying that Ingram projects as a superb defensive player going forward. Now, this month the offense has finally come around. He's playing the point, has a nearly 2.5:1 assist to turnover ratio for the month. The eye test confirms that he's an extremely intelligent player with the ball that rarely makes dumb mistakes. And finally, the scoring efficiency has come around as well. 46.2 fg%, 43.8 3pt% for the month.
Ingram right now is flashing wads and wads of potential. He matched up with Paul George last night, and it doesn't take much imagination to look at that game and envision Ingram being that class of player in the not too distant future. He had a similar game earlier this year matched up against Jimmy Butler. Ingram has shown small glimpses of that potential multiple times throughout the year, which in my opinion is partly why he hasn't gotten as much heat as Russell has gotten despite the poor stats to start the season.
Russell is a fine prospect that projects as one of the top NBA guards going forward. He gets a lot of hate from a vocal minority on this board that wanted Okafor on draft night. It's interesting to see you go out of your way to demean Ingram in response to this however, since I think most would objectively come to the conclusion that he is easily our best prospect going forward, given his recent offensive play combined with the defensive upside he's shown all along. |
Dao, can we find advanced stats for a single month? That would be interesting. I remember that Clarkson had an outstanding PER after the all star break for a rookie. Those things matter because rookies use to turn the corner at some point of the season and after that we have a real glimpse of what they can do and expect for gradual improvements not another quick jump. |
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dao
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | botox wrote: | No one makes excuses for Ingram's struggles. He's played poorly. But everybody but Russell is to blame for DLO's struggles.
And I realize DLOs stats are superior to Ingram's. What does DLO's development have to do with Ingram anyway? No one is a hypocrite for feeling one player is better than another.
Take your numbers and I'll go long on Ingram and you can with Russell. I feel Ingram's upside is greater. If both were on the market right now, do u feel Ingram or Russell would bring more back in a trade? |
Few people even acknowledged Ingram's struggles, and those who did almost invariably added the "but that's just for now" caveat, while he was widely praised for every little thing he did right. The exact opposite is the case for Russell.
It's certainly your prerogative to feel that Ingram's upside is greater. I'm thrilled to have both of them, and feel no inclination to choose between them. I'm simply pointing out that the objectively better player has gotten much, much more hate, and I think that's BS. |
and they were absolutely correct! |
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greenfrog
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | nash wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | Russell's current productivity relative to his age & position align very well with some of the best lead guards in the game at the same age. |
Agreed, only his efficiency is concerning when we compare him with some of the best guards at his age. I find some of the criticism he takes unfair. |
No, that's comparable too, especially relative to usage. |
I still find his TS% concerning. He is taking care of the AST/TO ratio another point that used to concerns me. |
Just curious, what is a good AST/TO for a point guard these days? |
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dao
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | dao wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: |
That's an oxymoron. You want objective?
Rookie Year BPM = -1.8 (Ingram = -3.8)
Rookie Year RPM = -3.66 (Ingram = -5.44)
Rookie Year VORP = +0.1 (Ingram = -0.6)
Rookie Year TPA Per Game = -1.07 (Ingram = -2.18)
Yet a staggering difference in how they're treated. Cuz it ain't objective at all. |
Cumulative stats have to be taken with a grain of salt here, because Ingram right now isn't remotely the same player that he was at the start of the season. Not only are his stats better, but he's doing things on the court that he wasn't doing earlier this year. He's attacking the basket effectively, while earlier this year he couldn't attack at all.
Bottom line is that Ingram jumps out as a big time prospect on both sides of the court. You have been criticizing his defense in this thread, which is interesting to say the least. He's a rookie, so consistency is going to be an issue, but he projects as a future elite defender based on the flashes he has shown. You yourself have said that countless times earlier this year. Qnd kikanga posted these stats regarding his defense:
| kikanga wrote: |
First, Defense. Look at this chart for opponent field goal % for this year. http://tinyurl.com/z7fenuc
10-20 feet from the hoop. Ingram is our best defender in terms of opponent FG%. 5-10 feet he's our best defender out of all the young guys. Lou and Black are very close as well in terms of %s from 10-20 feet. But they aren't defending as many shot attempts as Ingram. He can guard 2 players in 1 possession with his length and instincts.
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I think it goes without saying that Ingram projects as a superb defensive player going forward. Now, this month the offense has finally come around. He's playing the point, has a nearly 2.5:1 assist to turnover ratio for the month. The eye test confirms that he's an extremely intelligent player with the ball that rarely makes dumb mistakes. And finally, the scoring efficiency has come around as well. 46.2 fg%, 43.8 3pt% for the month.
Ingram right now is flashing wads and wads of potential. He matched up with Paul George last night, and it doesn't take much imagination to look at that game and envision Ingram being that class of player in the not too distant future. He had a similar game earlier this year matched up against Jimmy Butler. Ingram has shown small glimpses of that potential multiple times throughout the year, which in my opinion is partly why he hasn't gotten as much heat as Russell has gotten despite the poor stats to start the season.
Russell is a fine prospect that projects as one of the top NBA guards going forward. He gets a lot of hate from a vocal minority on this board that wanted Okafor on draft night. It's interesting to see you go out of your way to demean Ingram in response to this however, since I think most would objectively come to the conclusion that he is easily our best prospect going forward, given his recent offensive play combined with the defensive upside he's shown all along. |
Dao, can we find advanced stats for a single month? That would be interesting. I remember that Clarkson had an outstanding PER after the all star break for a rookie. Those things matter because rookies use to turn the corner at some point of the season and after that we have a real glimpse of what they can do and expect for gradual improvements not another quick jump. |
I'm not sure, would be interesting to see. But stats aside, Ingram right now is passing the eye test with flying colors. I think he will be the best player on the team after a full off-season of strength and skills training. |
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nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | stats aside, Ingram right now is passing the eye test with flying colors. I think he will be the best player on the team after a full off-season of strength and skills training. |
I'm conservative about him since he has to fill his body, but I believe in three years he is going to be a monster. |
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55
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 12092
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | dao wrote: | | stats aside, Ingram right now is passing the eye test with flying colors. I think he will be the best player on the team after a full off-season of strength and skills training. |
I'm conservative about him since he has to fill his body, but I believe in three years he is going to be a monster. |
Based on his vast improvement from the start of the season, I'm with dao on this one. He's just getting comfortable with the NBA game and he will flourish soon enough. |
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augus7
Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 May 2016
Posts: 904
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| anpherknee wrote: | | nash wrote: | | anpherknee wrote: | | 55 wrote: | | tox wrote: | | 55 wrote: | No need to throw race into this conversation.
One is cocky, self proclaimed "ice in my veins" but shoots a low percentage.
The other is making good progress while starting out as a bench player.
If Ingram becomes cocky, lackadaisical, and his game drops off, I'm sure he'll get the same backlash. Heck, he was already called the "worst player in the league". |
Because he was? |
That's the point. He got criticized when he didn't perform. |
but where 👏 was 👏 his 👏 P 👏 and 👏 M 👏 thread 👏 tho 👏
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Ingram fans can live with someone calling him the next Wesley Johnson without freaking out so a P&M thread was not needed the same way there is not a JC or Julius Randle P&M threads and I assure you they were way more criticized than Russell. You can even find at least one "trade Jordan Clarkson for someone" thread. |
as one of the biggest julius randle stans on this board,
I can tell you that is super false
of course people said ridiculous things about julius & JC, but the dlo thread was a different animal entirely
dlo's thread is one of the most unique spaces i've ever seen on the internet
and that P&M thread wasn't born of sensitivity towards criticism as much as it was made for those who had a compulsion to criticize the young mans every move not even a month into the season
think about that: people wanted to trash this kid so bad that a P&M thread was made like 2 weeks into his rookie season. PEOPLE COULD NOT WAIT to tell you how much they didn't want him on the team
that P&M thread is like 80 pages, even with mods telling "dlo supporters" to stay out of it
it was amazing
if you wanna say supporters/fans (idk why we need these labels as fans of the team but whatevs) were sensitive to criticism, then I think its every bit as fair to say people who didn't like him were extremely sensitive to praise as well, and it all came together to make a glorious dumpster fire that gave me many a giggle
tl;dr- the criticisms in this thread aint got nothing on the war of russell 2015
which, of course, is a good thing |
Searched for that p&m and thread and boy, that was a blast from the past.
It was also a failure too, Russell haters continued using the official DLo thread and other posters also posted in the P&M thread.
One highlight was an LG user P&Ming about us not drafting Porzingis and was revealed to be a big Okafor supporter prior to the draft. |
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TheBlackMamba
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 9057
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | dao wrote: | | stats aside, Ingram right now is passing the eye test with flying colors. I think he will be the best player on the team after a full off-season of strength and skills training. |
I'm conservative about him since he has to fill his body, but I believe in three years he is going to be a monster. |
I know people are hesitant to make full-on comparisons to Kawhi, PG13, and Giannis, and rightly so because he's not going be 100% like any one of these players. He'll have a mixture of their skill sets, among others, and athletically he likely won't be quite at their level.
But if we're solely talking about the maturity of their games and how advanced their basketball IQ is at similar stages of their careers (19 years old and/or rookie season), doesn't BI easily come out as #1 in this group? |
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nash
Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| augus7 wrote: |
Searched for that p&m and thread and boy, that was a blast from the past.
It was also a failure too, Russell haters continued using the official DLo thread and other posters also posted in the P&M thread.
One highlight was an LG user P&Ming about us not drafting Porzingis and was revealed to be a big Okafor supporter prior to the draft. |
Well after the draft it makes all the sense of the world both Russell and Okafor supporters P&M for not drafting Porzingis since he is looking like a better prospect than both and while most fans didn't really know him before the draft, our front office had a private workout with him.
The main thing here is how do you feel about Byron Scott. Do you love him for the two 2nd picks he got as the tank commander or you hate him for thinking Porzingis was not man enough to play in the post?
Last edited by nash on Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | nash wrote: | | dao wrote: | | stats aside, Ingram right now is passing the eye test with flying colors. I think he will be the best player on the team after a full off-season of strength and skills training. |
I'm conservative about him since he has to fill his body, but I believe in three years he is going to be a monster. |
I know people are hesitant to make full-on comparisons to Kawhi, PG13, and Giannis, and rightly so because he's not going be 100% like any one of these players. He'll have a mixture of their skill sets, among others, and athletically he likely won't be quite at their level.
But if we're solely talking about the maturity of their games and how advanced their basketball IQ is at similar stages of their careers (19 years old and/or rookie season), doesn't BI easily come out as #1 in this group? |
I'm suspect and biased because even when he was struggling badly with his shot I found it a joy watching a player with such a high IQ and to be fair, he was not showing a lot more than this IQ. |
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ch3cky0selff00
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Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 4392
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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It's hard not to get giddy when thinking about what Brandon Ingram can become. I feel a certain confidence when he's in the game now. It's kind of hard to explain.
I can see where the Kawhi comparisons come into play -- although I think it's more personality than anything. Both of them are rather quiet / stoic -- they just come in and play the game.. no celebrations no "look what I did." It's refreshing to see somebody who isn't 'hollywood' lol.
Of the core, I think he probably has the best chance of being one of the cornerstones. |
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jonnybravo
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30679
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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I think some of the comparisons to Durant (including from myself) were wildly off base but man, if he turns into a reasonable facsimile of Giannis.
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Durant would never shoot that poorly from the line. He needs to work on his shot like Kawhi did. |
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TheBlackMamba
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 9057
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | TheBlackMamba wrote: | | nash wrote: | | dao wrote: | | stats aside, Ingram right now is passing the eye test with flying colors. I think he will be the best player on the team after a full off-season of strength and skills training. |
I'm conservative about him since he has to fill his body, but I believe in three years he is going to be a monster. |
I know people are hesitant to make full-on comparisons to Kawhi, PG13, and Giannis, and rightly so because he's not going be 100% like any one of these players. He'll have a mixture of their skill sets, among others, and athletically he likely won't be quite at their level.
But if we're solely talking about the maturity of their games and how advanced their basketball IQ is at similar stages of their careers (19 years old and/or rookie season), doesn't BI easily come out as #1 in this group? |
I'm suspect and biased because even when he was struggling badly with his shot I found it a joy watching a player with such a high IQ and to be fair, he was not showing a lot more than this IQ. |
I think it was just refreshing (and incredibly rare) to see that in a 19-year old, though. He already has a solid foundation in something that takes other guys years to build, and some don't ever get there (see McGee, Javale), which is why a lot of us looked past his other deficiencies early in the year.
As far as I'm concerned, it's just a matter of him building an NBA-caliber body and gaining more and more in-game experience before he starts dominating fools. All the other intangibles and b-ball skills you could possibly want in a player are there. And he's got a great attitude and work ethic to boot. Exciting times in Laker land... |
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augus7
Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 May 2016
Posts: 904
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | augus7 wrote: |
Searched for that p&m and thread and boy, that was a blast from the past.
It was also a failure too, Russell haters continued using the official DLo thread and other posters also posted in the P&M thread.
One highlight was an LG user P&Ming about us not drafting Porzingis and was revealed to be a big Okafor supporter prior to the draft. |
Well after the draft it makes all the sense of the world both Russell and Okafor supporters P&M for not drafting Porzingis since he is looking like a better prospect than both and while most fans didn't really know him before the draft, our front office had a private workout with him.
The main thing here is how do you feel about Byron Scott. Do you love him for the two 2nd picks he got as the tank commander or you hate him for thinking Porzingis was not man enough to play in the post? |
Man, I still hate him as a coach. That dude made me not watch the Lakers last season. I was content on watching the highlights (and even those show how badly he coaches our team!). |
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tox
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Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | I think some of the comparisons to Durant (including from myself) were wildly off base but man, if he turns into a reasonable facsimile of Giannis. |
I don't think he really reminds me of Giannis either. Way less explosive, doesn't get to the rim nearly as much. Better jump shot though. Better playmaking by age? Not sure since Giannis had a higher assist percentage, but better halfcourt shotmaking IMO.
I think he'll be a blend of all these really good 2-way players, but these kinds of comparisons are pretty limiting. |
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nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | And he's got a great attitude and work ethic to boot. |
That may be true because it was not just with his shot that he was struggling. His dribble and ball handling are also improving, he is changing pace and directions, he is protecting the ball and keeping it lower while dribbling and higher while going to the rim, he is jumping on one leg and now avoiding some blockers when finishing while using his offhand here and there. I've watched him in college and it is clear he is putting a lot of work. |
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lukewaltonsdad
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Joined: 09 Jul 2014
Posts: 2983
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| That was a very promising performance. I'm just so glad we have him. He's going to be special. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Lute Olsen was in town for the Arizona games against USC and UCLA, and was at last night's game. He told Luke that Ingram is going to be a great NBA player. Of course, BI had no idea who Lute was.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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GoldenThroat
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: |
That's an oxymoron. You want objective?
Rookie Year BPM = -1.8 (Ingram = -3.8)
Rookie Year RPM = -3.66 (Ingram = -5.44)
Rookie Year VORP = +0.1 (Ingram = -0.6)
Rookie Year TPA Per Game = -1.07 (Ingram = -2.18)
Yet a staggering difference in how they're treated. Cuz it ain't objective at all. |
Cumulative stats have to be taken with a grain of salt here, because Ingram right now isn't remotely the same player that he was at the start of the season. Not only are his stats better, but he's doing things on the court that he wasn't doing earlier this year. He's attacking the basket effectively, while earlier this year he couldn't attack at all.
Bottom line is that Ingram jumps out as a big time prospect on both sides of the court. You have been criticizing his defense in this thread, which is interesting to say the least. He's a rookie, so consistency is going to be an issue, but he projects as a future elite defender based on the flashes he has shown. You yourself have said that countless times earlier this year. Qnd kikanga posted these stats regarding his defense:
| kikanga wrote: |
First, Defense. Look at this chart for opponent field goal % for this year. http://tinyurl.com/z7fenuc
10-20 feet from the hoop. Ingram is our best defender in terms of opponent FG%. 5-10 feet he's our best defender out of all the young guys. Lou and Black are very close as well in terms of %s from 10-20 feet. But they aren't defending as many shot attempts as Ingram. He can guard 2 players in 1 possession with his length and instincts.
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I think it goes without saying that Ingram projects as a superb defensive player going forward. Now, this month the offense has finally come around. He's playing the point, has a nearly 2.5:1 assist to turnover ratio for the month. The eye test confirms that he's an extremely intelligent player with the ball that rarely makes dumb mistakes. And finally, the scoring efficiency has come around as well. 46.2 fg%, 43.8 3pt% for the month.
Ingram right now is flashing wads and wads of potential. He matched up with Paul George last night, and it doesn't take much imagination to look at that game and envision Ingram being that class of player in the not too distant future. He had a similar game earlier this year matched up against Jimmy Butler. Ingram has shown small glimpses of that potential multiple times throughout the year, which in my opinion is partly why he hasn't gotten as much heat as Russell has gotten despite the poor stats to start the season.
Russell is a fine prospect that projects as one of the top NBA guards going forward. He gets a lot of hate from a vocal minority on this board that wanted Okafor on draft night. It's interesting to see you go out of your way to demean Ingram in response to this however, since I think most would objectively come to the conclusion that he is easily our best prospect going forward, given his recent offensive play combined with the defensive upside he's shown all along. |
I totally agree that Ingram projects to be an elite defender. What I said is that (yesterday aside) he hasn't been playing well on the defensive end recently. Players have ups & downs on that end of the court just as they do on offense, and he's had a fairly bad stretch on that end. There's a difference between playing bad defense and projecting to be a bad defender in the long run.
Cumulative stats are absolutely more worthwhile than a 3 week sample size. If you choose to view him solely through the lens of the most positive stretch of the entire season, that's your prerogative. But progress is rarely linear, and I think it's fairly likely that he'll take a step back in the relatively near future, before taking two steps forward again.
The notion that I go out of my way to "demean" Ingram really highlights the spectacular difference in how differently these two players are treated. I reference certain numbers...which I do for everyone...contextualize them by age and position...which I do for everyone...and make my observations from watching a ton of game footage, giving short term vs. long term caveats and qualifiers along the way. The fact that that's what qualifies as "going out of my way to demean him" is staggering. All I've asked is that other guys get the same treatment that he does, but again, I know that's never gonna happen. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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GT the very fact some of the same characters vehemently oppose what is a pretty clear and convincing proposition concerning disparate treatment for similar #2 picks is revealing.
Happy as hell we have Ingram. Happy as hell we have Dlo. Not sure why some still can't be the latter.
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TheBlackMamba
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 9057
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | I think some of the comparisons to Durant (including from myself) were wildly off base but man, if he turns into a reasonable facsimile of Giannis. |
I don't think he really reminds me of Giannis either. Way less explosive, doesn't get to the rim nearly as much. Better jump shot though. Better playmaking by age? Not sure since Giannis had a higher assist percentage, but better halfcourt shotmaking IMO.
I think he'll be a blend of all these really good 2-way players, but these kinds of comparisons are pretty limiting. |
Are there stats that show how often guys are getting to the rim, or is it mainly just measuring the percentage of their shots that are coming from that area? As far as free throw attempts, they seem to be similar in their rookie years, with BI likely to increase his FT rate by year-end given the uptick in usage and the overall way he's been playing the last month. And it looks like he's getting more and more comfortable getting to the spots where he wants to go on the floor, as his ballhandling has steadily improved.
I remember Giannis being a similar project-type player coming out of the draft, and in his first year - was he really that much more explosive than BI back then? He was rail thin at first, too. |
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Andre2K
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 12199
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Ingram will never get the same amount of hate that DLO got. He's too humble, too likeable and not as polarizing. He also projects to have a higher ceiling, his length jumps out at you.
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My Dream Starting 5 next Season
Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon
Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc  |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | tox wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | I think some of the comparisons to Durant (including from myself) were wildly off base but man, if he turns into a reasonable facsimile of Giannis. |
I don't think he really reminds me of Giannis either. Way less explosive, doesn't get to the rim nearly as much. Better jump shot though. Better playmaking by age? Not sure since Giannis had a higher assist percentage, but better halfcourt shotmaking IMO.
I think he'll be a blend of all these really good 2-way players, but these kinds of comparisons are pretty limiting. |
Are there stats that show how often guys are getting to the rim, or is it mainly just measuring the percentage of their shots that are coming from that area? As far as free throw attempts, they seem to be similar in their rookie years, with BI likely to increase his FT rate by year-end given the uptick in usage and the overall way he's been playing the last month. And it looks like he's getting more and more comfortable getting to the spots he wants to go on the floor, as his ballhandling has steadily improved.
I remember Giannis being a similar project-type player coming out of the draft, and in his first year - was he really that much more explosive than BI back then? He was rail thin at first, too. |
Yes, there are. It's on stats.nba.com.
Of course, there's the eye test. Just watch the Youtube video of Giannis's dunks as a rookie. Ingram has had some nice dunks (against Toronto, he had another nice one in Duke where he got called for a charge) but not nearly at the same frequency.
If you want stats, I had a few about that which I unfortunately no longer have offhand. Comparing Giannis as a rook vs. Ingram:
-Giannis has a higher FTR
-Giannis had far more dunks
-Giannis finished inside the paint/ inside the restricted area more often than Ingram
-Consider the proposition that if you are explosive, then when you get near the basket, you'll finish at the rim more. Then a ratio of shot attempts at the rim vs. shot attempts in the paint but outside the restricted area is a proxy for "getting to the rim." Giannis was something like one every 6 min, Ingram is one every 15 (IIRC)
They're all minor details, but they do paint a story that Giannis gets to the rim more easily and more frequently, and he finishes stronger when he does get there. |
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