OFFICIAL IVICA ZUBAC THREAD
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Shaq4fon
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject:

I would love to see how Marc Gasol would do defensively in the Lakers, playing with the players Zu is playing with (no, I am not saying Zu is even close to his defensive qualities yet).

Keep that in mind when you discuss Zu's potential, and keep in mind he is a 20 year old Croatian kid playing his first serious minutes ever.

His (sometimes) poor rebounding is a result of the fact that other centers are stronger than him right now, which will change soon. I am not saying that will turn him into an elite rebounder, but it will surely help a lot. Everything else is just a lack of experience.

Offensively, there is absolutely nothing to complain about. He is more beneficial for the team than both Black and Mozgov, both with his own scoring, nice understandning of the game and also with his great screens, and he will be a ten times better player than them offensively, since he is considerably better already.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:50 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Definitely willing to pencil him in as our starter of the future. But, his finishing around the rim needs to get much more aggressive and creative.
More concerned with the fact that we are utter garbage on defense with him on the court. What we need is for him to develop defensive awareness at least somewhat resembling Marc Gasol levels, and that is a really high order for anyone.

I think he reads the floor well on offense and that bodes well for his ability to do so on defense, and he has instincts for shotblocking... but jeez there's a long way to go there. And considering the 5 is, imo, the most important defensive position, that's a big deal before I pencil him in as the starter of the future.

Guys like Enes Kanter and Greg Monroe (who incidentally has apparently improved his defense a lot) come off the bench for a reason.


You don't think that Randle, Clarkson, Russell have something to do with this? I believe he can be a plus on defense given some players that can actually help the cause. I think Mosgov and Deng suffered the same issues. They aren't bad defenders. They are just surrounded by bad defenders and bad defensive tactics. I find it unfair to blame Zubac or Mosgov for not being able to make up for those others defensively.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:13 am    Post subject:

defense wrote:
tox wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Definitely willing to pencil him in as our starter of the future. But, his finishing around the rim needs to get much more aggressive and creative.
More concerned with the fact that we are utter garbage on defense with him on the court. What we need is for him to develop defensive awareness at least somewhat resembling Marc Gasol levels, and that is a really high order for anyone.

I think he reads the floor well on offense and that bodes well for his ability to do so on defense, and he has instincts for shotblocking... but jeez there's a long way to go there. And considering the 5 is, imo, the most important defensive position, that's a big deal before I pencil him in as the starter of the future.

Guys like Enes Kanter and Greg Monroe (who incidentally has apparently improved his defense a lot) come off the bench for a reason.


You don't think that Randle, Clarkson, Russell have something to do with this? I believe he can be a plus on defense given some players that can actually help the cause. I think Mosgov and Deng suffered the same issues. They aren't bad defenders. They are just surrounded by bad defenders and bad defensive tactics. I find it unfair to blame Zubac or Mosgov for not being able to make up for those others defensively.


I don't "blame" anyone the way you said, because I don't have the eyes or the stats to be able to isolate the impact of individuals (for the most part). I'll save that for the experts. When it comes to defense, I operate mostly with lineup data, because to me that's pretty clearly interpretable. What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

Now there's a pretty compelling rebuttal of the above concern: "Hey, that starting lineup with Mozgov -- they were pretty good on defense. What happens if we replace Mozgov with Zubac? They're both tall, plodding centers, but Zubac has even better shotblocking instincts. How do we know he wouldn't succeed in that role?" To which I respond -- (bleep) if I know? We could have found out but we decided to tank so who knows? My gut instinct says it will be less effective, because Zubac seems to miss reads and he's a horrible defensive rebounder. But that's purely conjecture, and as I prefaced my post, I don't claim to be able to really isolate the defensive impact of an individual.

So to me, the evidence is clear: Zubac has been horrible defensively, but maybe he's being misused. Just like how Nance is a pretty good defender but when you stick him next to Randle, he's terrible -- maybe we just need Zubac in the right lineup. We won't be able to find out so that part is speculation, so it's really just up to opinion. I'm concerned because it seems like he gets abused when I watch him in a way Mozgov doesn't. But I can easily be wrong, and if you want to disagree, be my guest. But the idea that we should blame Russell, Clarkson, and Randle and not even consider looking at Zubac's flaws to me reeks of lazy narratives + playing favorites. (You'll note I've taken aim at Ingram, Clarkson, and Russell's defense in the past week as well.)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:39 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

lineups in which every member contributes defensively and doesn't allow his opponent to blow by him easily. if guards do their job defensively it makes easier for front line to clean up what comes through.

tox wrote:
The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

you do remember that he is a rookie that just turned 20? there is a whole summer for him to work on his strength, stamina and defense. that put together should improve his defensive game
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:39 am    Post subject:

I think that Luke should experiment running the offense through the post more often when Zubac in in the lineup. His passing skills are really amazing and this would be a nice compliment to the pick and roll and would keep defenses guessing. I would also like to see this aspect of his game expanded for longer term.

We have some really good passing guys on this team with Russell, Randle, Ingram and Zubac and going through the post should be an aspect of this offense or rather it should perhaps be emphasized a bit more
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject:

oldlakerfan wrote:
I think that Luke should experiment running the offense through the post more often when Zubac in in the lineup. His passing skills are really amazing and this would be a nice compliment to the pick and roll and would keep defenses guessing. I would also like to see this aspect of his game expanded for longer term.

We have some really good passing guys on this team with Russell, Randle, Ingram and Zubac and going through the post should be an aspect of this offense or rather it should perhaps be emphasized a bit more


That's probably in the plans somewhere, but if Luke's goal is to bring the offense on in layers, this is probably one of the later ones.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject:

How Zub defends PnRs, switches to guards, and defense in space on the perimeter will go a long way into determining if he will be a 2 way starter or a big man off the bench.

FWIW, Nate Duncan's podcast said Ibaka volunteered or wanted to play "center" for the Magic but they had too much of a logjam with Vucevic and Biyombo (who could only play center). Ibaka at center is an intriguing concept to me where he won't have to guard so many stretch PFs.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:

I don't "blame" anyone the way you said, because I don't have the eyes or the stats to be able to isolate the impact of individuals (for the most part). I'll save that for the experts. When it comes to defense, I operate mostly with lineup data, because to me that's pretty clearly interpretable. What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

Now there's a pretty compelling rebuttal of the above concern: "Hey, that starting lineup with Mozgov -- they were pretty good on defense. What happens if we replace Mozgov with Zubac? They're both tall, plodding centers, but Zubac has even better shotblocking instincts. How do we know he wouldn't succeed in that role?" To which I respond -- (bleep) if I know? We could have found out but we decided to tank so who knows? My gut instinct says it will be less effective, because Zubac seems to miss reads and he's a horrible defensive rebounder. But that's purely conjecture, and as I prefaced my post, I don't claim to be able to really isolate the defensive impact of an individual.

So to me, the evidence is clear: Zubac has been horrible defensively, but maybe he's being misused. Just like how Nance is a pretty good defender but when you stick him next to Randle, he's terrible -- maybe we just need Zubac in the right lineup. We won't be able to find out so that part is speculation, so it's really just up to opinion. I'm concerned because it seems like he gets abused when I watch him in a way Mozgov doesn't. But I can easily be wrong, and if you want to disagree, be my guest. But the idea that we should blame Russell, Clarkson, and Randle and not even consider looking at Zubac's flaws to me reeks of lazy narratives + playing favorites. (You'll note I've taken aim at Ingram, Clarkson, and Russell's defense in the past week as well.)


Tox, when Zubac plays with guards like Ennis and Nwaba or with forwards like Brewer and Deng there is not the same kind of problem on D and the team is still productive enough on offense to have a positive net ratting, you may find data showing that. By the way, Deng has a positive impact on D on most lineups, it is an underrated quality from this veteran.

I find Clarkson underrated here in LG, if you look at our 20 best lineups per 48 with at least 10 minutes together to have a bit of a sample size, you are going to find him in 14 of them.

When I talk about the lack of synergy, our best lineups have a mix of some younglins with a couple of less skilled players with good defensive presence.

It may sound incredible, but our two best lineups are:
Ennis, Clarkson, Nwaba, Nance, Zubac
Ennis, Clarkson, Nwaba, Nance, Brewer

It doesn't surprises me because I started to take notice that Ennis (a scrub) finishes most games with a positive net ratting and it doesn't matter if he is going against starters or 3rd stringers. The main problem of our team is not talent, but the will to play hard and do the little things. We know Ennis, Nwaba and Brewer are bellow average players, but they do what is needed, so does Nance. The concept that defense wins championships is true if you can score enough.

Guess what is the worst lineup with Zubac present?
Russell, Young, Ingram, Julius, Zubac

The eye test matches the data.

Just to finish, you like to point that the starting lineup of Dlo, Nick, Deng, Julius and Mozgov has a positive net ratting and that is true, it is also the lineup with most time together, but despite the small sample size (about 17 min) our 4th best lineup considering net ratting/48 is:
Dlo, Nick, Deng, Julius and Zubac

I believe Deng equalizes lineups with Julius and Dlo when we have a legic C with them.


Last edited by nash on Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject:

Some good discussion in this thread you guys.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
How Zub defends PnRs, switches to guards, and defense in space on the perimeter will go a long way into determining if he will be a 2 way starter or a big man off the bench.

FWIW, Nate Duncan's podcast said Ibaka volunteered or wanted to play "center" for the Magic but they had too much of a logjam with Vucevic and Biyombo (who could only play center). Ibaka at center is an intriguing concept to me where he won't have to guard so many stretch PFs.


Ibaka at center would be great, but that seems more like a win now move. Unless you think he'll still be intriguing in 3-4 years.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject:

Roon wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
How Zub defends PnRs, switches to guards, and defense in space on the perimeter will go a long way into determining if he will be a 2 way starter or a big man off the bench.

FWIW, Nate Duncan's podcast said Ibaka volunteered or wanted to play "center" for the Magic but they had too much of a logjam with Vucevic and Biyombo (who could only play center). Ibaka at center is an intriguing concept to me where he won't have to guard so many stretch PFs.


Ibaka at center would be great, but that seems more like a win now move. Unless you think he'll still be intriguing in 3-4 years.


Yeah, I know it wouldn't line up with our trajectory. But if we had something like:

Ball
DLo
PG13
Deng
Ibaka

As a starting 5, would be interesting.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Roon wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
How Zub defends PnRs, switches to guards, and defense in space on the perimeter will go a long way into determining if he will be a 2 way starter or a big man off the bench.

FWIW, Nate Duncan's podcast said Ibaka volunteered or wanted to play "center" for the Magic but they had too much of a logjam with Vucevic and Biyombo (who could only play center). Ibaka at center is an intriguing concept to me where he won't have to guard so many stretch PFs.


Ibaka at center would be great, but that seems more like a win now move. Unless you think he'll still be intriguing in 3-4 years.


Yeah, I know it wouldn't line up with our trajectory. But if we had something like:

Ball
DLo
PG13
Deng
Ibaka

As a starting 5, would be interesting.


Not bad, but I like

Fultz
Butler
PG13
Ibaka
Zubac

better
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject:

nash wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Roon wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
How Zub defends PnRs, switches to guards, and defense in space on the perimeter will go a long way into determining if he will be a 2 way starter or a big man off the bench.

FWIW, Nate Duncan's podcast said Ibaka volunteered or wanted to play "center" for the Magic but they had too much of a logjam with Vucevic and Biyombo (who could only play center). Ibaka at center is an intriguing concept to me where he won't have to guard so many stretch PFs.


Ibaka at center would be great, but that seems more like a win now move. Unless you think he'll still be intriguing in 3-4 years.


Yeah, I know it wouldn't line up with our trajectory. But if we had something like:

Ball
DLo
PG13
Deng
Ibaka

As a starting 5, would be interesting.


Not bad, but I like

Fultz
Butler
PG13
Ibaka
Zubac

better


How are you getting Butler/PG13 without giving Fultz?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject:

Agramer wrote:
tox wrote:
What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

lineups in which every member contributes defensively and doesn't allow his opponent to blow by him easily. if guards do their job defensively it makes easier for front line to clean up what comes through.

tox wrote:
The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

you do remember that he is a rookie that just turned 20? there is a whole summer for him to work on his strength, stamina and defense. that put together should improve his defensive game


I'm saying his defense should be a concern until we have something tangible to point to so we can say -- "Hey, Zub's defense won't be a problem." At no point have I said he won't improve. I am sure he will. The question is how much, because Marc Gasol is an outlier for plodding types.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Agramer wrote:
tox wrote:
What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

lineups in which every member contributes defensively and doesn't allow his opponent to blow by him easily. if guards do their job defensively it makes easier for front line to clean up what comes through.

tox wrote:
The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

you do remember that he is a rookie that just turned 20? there is a whole summer for him to work on his strength, stamina and defense. that put together should improve his defensive game


I'm saying his defense should be a concern until we have something tangible to point to so we can say -- "Hey, Zub's defense won't be a problem." At no point have I said he won't improve. I am sure he will. The question is how much, because Marc Gasol is an outlier for plodding types.


The more I watch Zub the more I see that his days as a starter will be governed by how he guards in space and in PnRs. Right now he's getting killed in that respect.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/sports/Ivica-Zubac-Lakers-Rookie-showing-promise-417238443.html
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
tox wrote:

I don't "blame" anyone the way you said, because I don't have the eyes or the stats to be able to isolate the impact of individuals (for the most part). I'll save that for the experts. When it comes to defense, I operate mostly with lineup data, because to me that's pretty clearly interpretable. What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

Now there's a pretty compelling rebuttal of the above concern: "Hey, that starting lineup with Mozgov -- they were pretty good on defense. What happens if we replace Mozgov with Zubac? They're both tall, plodding centers, but Zubac has even better shotblocking instincts. How do we know he wouldn't succeed in that role?" To which I respond -- (bleep) if I know? We could have found out but we decided to tank so who knows? My gut instinct says it will be less effective, because Zubac seems to miss reads and he's a horrible defensive rebounder. But that's purely conjecture, and as I prefaced my post, I don't claim to be able to really isolate the defensive impact of an individual.

So to me, the evidence is clear: Zubac has been horrible defensively, but maybe he's being misused. Just like how Nance is a pretty good defender but when you stick him next to Randle, he's terrible -- maybe we just need Zubac in the right lineup. We won't be able to find out so that part is speculation, so it's really just up to opinion. I'm concerned because it seems like he gets abused when I watch him in a way Mozgov doesn't. But I can easily be wrong, and if you want to disagree, be my guest. But the idea that we should blame Russell, Clarkson, and Randle and not even consider looking at Zubac's flaws to me reeks of lazy narratives + playing favorites. (You'll note I've taken aim at Ingram, Clarkson, and Russell's defense in the past week as well.)


Tox, when Zubac plays with guards like Ennis and Nwaba or with forwards like Brewer and Deng there is not the same kind of problem on D and the team is still productive enough on offense to have a positive net ratting, you may find data showing that. By the way, Deng has a positive impact on D on most lineups, it is an underrated quality from this veteran.

I find Clarkson underrated here in LG, if you look at our 20 best lineups per 48 with at least 10 minutes together to have a bit of a sample size, you are going to find him in 14 of them.

When I talk about the lack of synergy, our best lineups have a mix of some younglins with a couple of less skilled players with good defensive presence.

It may sound incredible, but our two best lineups are:
Ennis, Clarkson, Nwaba, Nance, Zubac
Ennis, Clarkson, Nwaba, Nance, Brewer

It doesn't surprises me because I started to take notice that Ennis (a scrub) finishes most games with a positive net ratting and it doesn't matter if he is going against starters or 3rd stringers. The main problem of our team is not talent, but the will to play hard and do the little things. We know Ennis, Nwaba and Brewer are bellow average players, but they do what is needed, so does Nance. The concept that defense wins championships is true if you can score enough.

Guess what is the worst lineup with Zubac present?
Russell, Young, Ingram, Julius, Zubac

The eye test matches the data.

Just to finish, you like to point that the starting lineup of Dlo, Nick, Deng, Julius and Mozgov has a positive net ratting and that is true, it is also the lineup with most time together, but despite the small sample size (about 17 min) our 4th best lineup considering net ratting/48 is:
Dlo, Nick, Deng, Julius and Zubac

I believe Deng equalizes lineups with Julius and Dlo when we have a legic C with them.


good stuff, Nash.
To be honest with you, 10 minutes is just a really, really small sample size. That's the biggest issue when it comes to assessing Zubac with lineup data. He has three lineups that have decent minute sample sizes (83.5, 53.8, 48.4) and beyond that, they're all waaayy too small. Like, it's encouraging that Russell/ Nick/ Deng/ Julius/ Zub has a good net rating, but in 18 minutes? That's way too short to draw meaningful conclusions from.

BTW, good point on Deng's influence. Russell's DRTG is 121 without Deng and 109 with him. That's pretty staggering and points to the underrated value Deng has.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject:

anpherknee wrote:
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/sports/Ivica-Zubac-Lakers-Rookie-showing-promise-417238443.html


Zupac!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
nash wrote:
tox wrote:

I don't "blame" anyone the way you said, because I don't have the eyes or the stats to be able to isolate the impact of individuals (for the most part). I'll save that for the experts. When it comes to defense, I operate mostly with lineup data, because to me that's pretty clearly interpretable. What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

Now there's a pretty compelling rebuttal of the above concern: "Hey, that starting lineup with Mozgov -- they were pretty good on defense. What happens if we replace Mozgov with Zubac? They're both tall, plodding centers, but Zubac has even better shotblocking instincts. How do we know he wouldn't succeed in that role?" To which I respond -- (bleep) if I know? We could have found out but we decided to tank so who knows? My gut instinct says it will be less effective, because Zubac seems to miss reads and he's a horrible defensive rebounder. But that's purely conjecture, and as I prefaced my post, I don't claim to be able to really isolate the defensive impact of an individual.

So to me, the evidence is clear: Zubac has been horrible defensively, but maybe he's being misused. Just like how Nance is a pretty good defender but when you stick him next to Randle, he's terrible -- maybe we just need Zubac in the right lineup. We won't be able to find out so that part is speculation, so it's really just up to opinion. I'm concerned because it seems like he gets abused when I watch him in a way Mozgov doesn't. But I can easily be wrong, and if you want to disagree, be my guest. But the idea that we should blame Russell, Clarkson, and Randle and not even consider looking at Zubac's flaws to me reeks of lazy narratives + playing favorites. (You'll note I've taken aim at Ingram, Clarkson, and Russell's defense in the past week as well.)


Tox, when Zubac plays with guards like Ennis and Nwaba or with forwards like Brewer and Deng there is not the same kind of problem on D and the team is still productive enough on offense to have a positive net ratting, you may find data showing that. By the way, Deng has a positive impact on D on most lineups, it is an underrated quality from this veteran.

I find Clarkson underrated here in LG, if you look at our 20 best lineups per 48 with at least 10 minutes together to have a bit of a sample size, you are going to find him in 14 of them.

When I talk about the lack of synergy, our best lineups have a mix of some younglins with a couple of less skilled players with good defensive presence.

It may sound incredible, but our two best lineups are:
Ennis, Clarkson, Nwaba, Nance, Zubac
Ennis, Clarkson, Nwaba, Nance, Brewer

It doesn't surprises me because I started to take notice that Ennis (a scrub) finishes most games with a positive net ratting and it doesn't matter if he is going against starters or 3rd stringers. The main problem of our team is not talent, but the will to play hard and do the little things. We know Ennis, Nwaba and Brewer are bellow average players, but they do what is needed, so does Nance. The concept that defense wins championships is true if you can score enough.

Guess what is the worst lineup with Zubac present?
Russell, Young, Ingram, Julius, Zubac

The eye test matches the data.

Just to finish, you like to point that the starting lineup of Dlo, Nick, Deng, Julius and Mozgov has a positive net ratting and that is true, it is also the lineup with most time together, but despite the small sample size (about 17 min) our 4th best lineup considering net ratting/48 is:
Dlo, Nick, Deng, Julius and Zubac

I believe Deng equalizes lineups with Julius and Dlo when we have a legic C with them.


good stuff, Nash.
To be honest with you, 10 minutes is just a really, really small sample size. That's the biggest issue when it comes to assessing Zubac with lineup data. He has three lineups that have decent minute sample sizes (83.5, 53.8, 48.4) and beyond that, they're all waaayy too small. Like, it's encouraging that Russell/ Nick/ Deng/ Julius/ Zub has a good net rating, but in 18 minutes? That's way too short to draw meaningful conclusions from.

BTW, good point on Deng's influence. Russell's DRTG is 121 without Deng and 109 with him. That's pretty staggering and points to the underrated value Deng has.


are all of those mins from the one atlanta game?

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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Agramer wrote:
tox wrote:
What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

lineups in which every member contributes defensively and doesn't allow his opponent to blow by him easily. if guards do their job defensively it makes easier for front line to clean up what comes through.

tox wrote:
The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

you do remember that he is a rookie that just turned 20? there is a whole summer for him to work on his strength, stamina and defense. that put together should improve his defensive game


I'm saying his defense should be a concern until we have something tangible to point to so we can say -- "Hey, Zub's defense won't be a problem." At no point have I said he won't improve. I am sure he will. The question is how much, because Marc Gasol is an outlier for plodding types.

How are his rim protection stats?
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
tox wrote:
Agramer wrote:
tox wrote:
What kind of lineups can a guy be successful in defensively?

lineups in which every member contributes defensively and doesn't allow his opponent to blow by him easily. if guards do their job defensively it makes easier for front line to clean up what comes through.

tox wrote:
The lineup data paints a pretty clear picture: the Lakers have been a horrible defensive team with Zubac playing, and there is no known configuration to point to as evidence that he can be successful defensively. And that's a pretty big (bleep) concern.

you do remember that he is a rookie that just turned 20? there is a whole summer for him to work on his strength, stamina and defense. that put together should improve his defensive game


I'm saying his defense should be a concern until we have something tangible to point to so we can say -- "Hey, Zub's defense won't be a problem." At no point have I said he won't improve. I am sure he will. The question is how much, because Marc Gasol is an outlier for plodding types.

How are his rim protection stats?

I remember reading some criticisms of rim protection stats. Here's within 5 feet of the basket:
http://stats.nba.com/players/defensive-impact/#!?CF=DEF_RIM_FGA*GE*5&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=-1

He gives up 50.4% at the rim, which isn't great in isolation. But compared to his teammates, it's pretty good: Moz at 53.5% and Randle at 58.8%. I suspect that 50.4% is deflated somewhat due to his teammates so for a 19/20 y/o, they're not bad at all.

That said, like I said, I remember reading criticisms of how these numbers are calculated so I wouldn't read too much into them.

What I find noteworthy is Zub contests a lot of shots at the rim compared to others on this list, even teammates like Moz. I'm not sure if it's because he doesn't scare people off (yet) as a rim protector, or if it's due to him giving up offensive boards (after which the opposing big is likely to take another shot). The rebounding might affect his DFG% as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject:

Tox the sample size is really small but we can use similar data to have a clue if it is valid. We have few lineups with positive net ratting and two of them are

Dlo, Young, Deng, Julius and Mozgov
Dlo, Young, Deng, Julius and Zubac

it seems like swapping centers don't have a huge effect on results

if you swap Dlo by Calderon or other guard without swapping Nick Young too it becomes putrid

If you swap Deng by Ingram it becomes bad too, but not if you slide Deng to the PF position, then you can play Ingram.

Luke had two productive lineups early, it is just that the equilibrium is so tenuous that you can't really interchange most players with good results and I believe it has a lot to do with the stile our players can adapt to, they have way too many shortcomings.

I was never a pro, but I find it disturbing how many times Dlo asks for a switch or calls ice on the PnR. I used to call those plays for my guards, the big man is the last line of the D, it would be tough to play with a guard calling those plays so often. While I agree with LUke that Zubac main problem on D is coverage and pointed his stance, something that taking care would help increasing his rebounds too, the amount of times our Cs are asked to cover our perimeter players is concerning.
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
Tox the sample size is really small but we can use similar data to have a clue if it is valid. We have few lineups with positive net ratting and two of them are

Dlo, Young, Deng, Julius and Mozgov
Dlo, Young, Deng, Julius and Zubac

it seems like swapping centers don't have a huge effect on results

if you swap Dlo by Calderon or other guard without swapping Nick Young too it becomes putrid

If you swap Deng by Ingram it becomes bad too, but not if you slide Deng to the PF position, then you can play Ingram.

Luke had two productive lineups early, it is just that the equilibrium is so tenuous that you can't really interchange most players with good results and I believe it has a lot to do with the stile our players can adapt to, they have way too many shortcomings.

I was never a pro, but I find it disturbing how many times Dlo asks for a switch or calls ice on the PnR. I used to call those plays for my guards, the big man is the last line of the D, it would be tough to play with a guard calling those plays so often. While I agree with LUke that Zubac main problem on D is coverage and pointed his stance, something that taking care would help increasing his rebounds too, the amount of times our Cs are asked to cover our perimeter players is concerning.

Yeah, I arrived at a similar conclusion. I could see Zubac effectively replacing Mozgov without a huge drop off in defense, and stats in limited minutes support that. But as Anph pointed out, though, those limited minutes boil down to a single game (the Hawks one early). I don't want to extrapolate from a single game -- which is why I haaaate tanking so much. Ideally, we would have seen Zubac replace Mozgov for about 7-10 games and we'd have ~100-150 minutes to evaluate how well Zubac replaces Moz. But because we had to lose, we shelved Deng, and as you noted, Deng is pretty crucial to our defense being passable.

I don't really have a comment on switching & iceing on the PnR because I don't have a feel for whether it's coaching or laziness, and whether there is even a better solution given personnel limitations. IIRC Russell's PnR defensive numbers were pretty good according to Synergy, for what that's worth.
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dcarter4kobe
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:07 pm    Post subject:

I think it's fair to assume Zu will come back improved physically next season, which will also directly impact his defense.

Will be interesting to see which one starts between Zu and Mozgov. I personally believe you can only play one.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject:

ZuBeast

http://media.nbclosangeles.com/images/652*378/Ivica-Zubac-Lakers-1.png

Goodness gracious he's gotten bigger O_O

Lakers Rookie Ivica Zubac Looking To Add Muscle, Improve Game

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/sports/Ivica-Zubac-Lakers-Rookie-showing-promise-417238443.html
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