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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
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 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Using per 36 stats to prove Zubac is a good player is ridiculous. Do you watch basketball games or just look up the stats? Anyone with a decent pair of eyes can see that Zu is a bad player. |
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PlantedTanks
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Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 3156
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | Using per 36 stats to prove Zubac is a good player is ridiculous. Do you watch basketball games or just look up the stats? Anyone with a decent pair of eyes can see that Zu is a bad player. |
Does these eyes include Magic and Pelinka who decided to guarantee his contract for this season?
I look up stats to prove a point. Not just counting stats but analytics.
When the stats don't go your way you question if I watch games? Nice response.
So we are to take everyone's opinion based on what they see. I guess Byron Scott is your role model. |
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RI Laker
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7158
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| PlantedTanks wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Using per 36 stats to prove Zubac is a good player is ridiculous. Do you watch basketball games or just look up the stats? Anyone with a decent pair of eyes can see that Zu is a bad player. |
Does these eyes include Magic and Pelinka who decided to guarantee his contract for this season?
I look up stats to prove a point. Not just counting stats but analytics.
When the stats don't go your way you question if I watch games? Nice response.
So we are to take everyone's opinion based on what they see. I guess Byron Scott is your role model. |
Game. Set. Match. |
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Your point is hilariously wrong and based on per 36 stats. Show me the analytics on Zu. They’re not good especially his Synergy sports breakdown. He isn’t a good player plain and simple. He’s slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, very poor lateral ability, 0 explosiveness especially in traffic, gets lost on defense constantly, and plenty more issues. Magic and Rob messed up picking up his contract |
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LakersForever123
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 2261
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| PlantedTanks wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Using per 36 stats to prove Zubac is a good player is ridiculous. Do you watch basketball games or just look up the stats? Anyone with a decent pair of eyes can see that Zu is a bad player. |
Does these eyes include Magic and Pelinka who decided to guarantee his contract for this season?
I look up stats to prove a point. Not just counting stats but analytics.
When the stats don't go your way you question if I watch games? Nice response.
So we are to take everyone's opinion based on what they see. I guess Byron Scott is your role model. |
This. |
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Annihilator
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Joined: 02 Jul 2001
Posts: 4035
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | Your point is hilariously wrong and based on per 36 stats. Show me the analytics on Zu. They’re not good especially his Synergy sports breakdown. He isn’t a good player plain and simple. He’s slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, very poor lateral ability, 0 explosiveness especially in traffic, gets lost on defense constantly, and plenty more issues. Magic and Rob messed up picking up his contract |
What are his Synergy Sports breakdown? How do they compare? If you are going to use them in your argument you should at least tell us what they are and how we can access them.
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Annihilator wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Your point is hilariously wrong and based on per 36 stats. Show me the analytics on Zu. They’re not good especially his Synergy sports breakdown. He isn’t a good player plain and simple. He’s slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, very poor lateral ability, 0 explosiveness especially in traffic, gets lost on defense constantly, and plenty more issues. Magic and Rob messed up picking up his contract |
What are his Synergy Sports breakdown? How do they compare? If you are going to use them in your argument you should at least tell us what they are and how we can access them. |
My mistake, I was actually referring to his B-Ball Index grade:
https://twitter.com/The_BBall_Index/status/1024625735930138624
My points still stand on Zubac though. He's out dated center that isn't a fit on this team. He's slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, a liability on defense in today's NBA, and he actually sucks in the post on offense yet that's what he wants to do often. These are things we saw last season and in preseason this year. He's a 3rd string center right now and I haven't seen any signs of him growing into more.
Not a good sign when a 3rd year player looked his best his rookie season |
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€H£M£$TR¥
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Joined: 03 Apr 2017
Posts: 3782
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Zu will be great this year.
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DEAR BASKETBALL |
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PlantedTanks
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Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 3156
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | Annihilator wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Your point is hilariously wrong and based on per 36 stats. Show me the analytics on Zu. They’re not good especially his Synergy sports breakdown. He isn’t a good player plain and simple. He’s slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, very poor lateral ability, 0 explosiveness especially in traffic, gets lost on defense constantly, and plenty more issues. Magic and Rob messed up picking up his contract |
What are his Synergy Sports breakdown? How do they compare? If you are going to use them in your argument you should at least tell us what they are and how we can access them. |
My mistake, I was actually referring to his B-Ball Index grade:
https://twitter.com/The_BBall_Index/status/1024625735930138624
My points still stand on Zubac though. He's out dated center that isn't a fit on this team. He's slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, a liability on defense in today's NBA, and he actually sucks in the post on offense yet that's what he wants to do often. These are things we saw last season and in preseason this year. He's a 3rd string center right now and I haven't seen any signs of him growing into more.
Not a good sign when a 3rd year player looked his best his rookie season |
Well you again respond with no data points. What is BBall Index? Where's the numbers behind these ratings.
I posted some of these stats on the previous page.
For 2017 (as a 20 year old)
DRPM 1.81
DBPM 0.5
ORtg 111 DRtg 107
RPM -0.38
Scoring 0-3 ft 63%
The following gives you an idea of the rate he is grabbing rebounds and blocking shots in the time he is on the court. If you have a better idea of how to judge these parts of his game please let me know.
Reb per 36 10.8
Blk per 36 1.7
Just for reference Brandon Ingram (as a 20 year old)
DRPM -0.28
DBPM 0.3
ORtg 104 DRtg 109
RPM -1.59
Scoring 0-3 ft 67% not post play, primarily drives
Yes Zubac and BI play different positions but it gives you a perspective of the impact each has during their time on the court.
Numbers don't tell the whole story but they do tell A story and should be considered in the evaluation process. Otherwise your out dated remark applies to your Byron Scott only approach of what my eyes see. We saw how that worked out for BS.
Everyone has their opinions of each player and I respect that but sometimes stats tell a different story and if introduced I would hope they are given consideration before repeating the same negative or positive opinions of a player. |
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Annihilator
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Joined: 02 Jul 2001
Posts: 4035
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | Annihilator wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Your point is hilariously wrong and based on per 36 stats. Show me the analytics on Zu. They’re not good especially his Synergy sports breakdown. He isn’t a good player plain and simple. He’s slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, very poor lateral ability, 0 explosiveness especially in traffic, gets lost on defense constantly, and plenty more issues. Magic and Rob messed up picking up his contract |
What are his Synergy Sports breakdown? How do they compare? If you are going to use them in your argument you should at least tell us what they are and how we can access them. |
My mistake, I was actually referring to his B-Ball Index grade:
https://twitter.com/The_BBall_Index/status/1024625735930138624
My points still stand on Zubac though. He's out dated center that isn't a fit on this team. He's slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, a liability on defense in today's NBA, and he actually sucks in the post on offense yet that's what he wants to do often. These are things we saw last season and in preseason this year. He's a 3rd string center right now and I haven't seen any signs of him growing into more.
Not a good sign when a 3rd year player looked his best his rookie season |
First, how does BBall Index create its models? Second, do the models have any gravitas? I can't tell by what is shown.
Going to the actual grades, he got a B+ in overall rebounding and an A on interior defense. He also got a B+ in both finishing and "roll gravity." The rest of his grades are D's and F's in perimeter defense, perimeter shooting, play making, post play, and one-on-one. I think I can see why Magic and Pelinka picked up his contract for another year. He is a young center with strong skills in some specific areas that are important to traditional centers. Not bad for a back up.
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“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
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Shaber
Star Player
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 3732
Location: The other side
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:18 am Post subject: |
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deleted as a double-post
_________________
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Lakers depth chart
PG Johnson / Goodrich
SG Bryant / West / Scott
SF Baylor / Worthy / Cooper
PF Mikkelsen / Hairston / McAdoo / Gasol
C Chamberlain / Abdul-Jabbar / O'Neal / Mikan
Last edited by Shaber on Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Shaber
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Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 3732
Location: The other side
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| Annihilator wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Annihilator wrote: | | The Juggernaut wrote: | | Your point is hilariously wrong and based on per 36 stats. Show me the analytics on Zu. They’re not good especially his Synergy sports breakdown. He isn’t a good player plain and simple. He’s slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, very poor lateral ability, 0 explosiveness especially in traffic, gets lost on defense constantly, and plenty more issues. Magic and Rob messed up picking up his contract |
What are his Synergy Sports breakdown? How do they compare? If you are going to use them in your argument you should at least tell us what they are and how we can access them. |
My mistake, I was actually referring to his B-Ball Index grade:
https://twitter.com/The_BBall_Index/status/1024625735930138624
My points still stand on Zubac though. He's out dated center that isn't a fit on this team. He's slow, awkward, inconsistent hands, a liability on defense in today's NBA, and he actually sucks in the post on offense yet that's what he wants to do often. These are things we saw last season and in preseason this year. He's a 3rd string center right now and I haven't seen any signs of him growing into more.
Not a good sign when a 3rd year player looked his best his rookie season |
First, how does BBall Index create its models? Second, do the models have any gravitas? I can't tell by what is shown.
Going to the actual grades, he got a B+ in overall rebounding and an A on interior defense. He also got a B+ in both finishing and "roll gravity." The rest of his grades are D's and F's in perimeter defense, perimeter shooting, play making, post play, and one-on-one. I think I can see why Magic and Pelinka picked up his contract for another year. He is a young center with strong skills in some specific areas that are important to traditional centers. Not bad for a back up. |
Moreover, one can question the shooting grade. Sure, Zu is not and need not be a threat from the 3-point range, but his mid-range shot is at least decent. Judging centers with 3pt shots and not incorporating mid-range is actually ridiculous.
_________________
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Lakers depth chart
PG Johnson / Goodrich
SG Bryant / West / Scott
SF Baylor / Worthy / Cooper
PF Mikkelsen / Hairston / McAdoo / Gasol
C Chamberlain / Abdul-Jabbar / O'Neal / Mikan |
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Purp 32
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Joined: 12 Jul 2014
Posts: 2154
Location: Inglewood, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| I don't understand where all of this Zu love comes from. Do you guys watch other teams? He might be a bottom 5 worst backup center in the league. |
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RI Laker
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7158
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Zu is a 21 year old 3rd string center who the FO thinks there is a chance of development given his age and the fact that he is a foreign player. Bottom line is he is ZERO risk. He is the 64th highest paid center in the league. I read the posts and nobody is claiming they love him. I believe they are just being realistic and keeping things in perspective of expectations of a 3rd string center. There are some things this kid can do. I think we just have to trust the process. Our FO has not missed yet. |
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Annihilator
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Joined: 02 Jul 2001
Posts: 4035
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| RI Laker wrote: | | Zu is a 21 year old 3rd string center who the FO thinks there is a chance of development given his age and the fact that he is a foreign player. Bottom line is he is ZERO risk. He is the 64th highest paid center in the league. I read the posts and nobody is claiming they love him. I believe they are just being realistic and keeping things in perspective of expectations of a 3rd string center. There are some things this kid can do. I think we just have to trust the process. Our FO has not missed yet. |
^^ Gets it. 
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Purp 32
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Joined: 12 Jul 2014
Posts: 2154
Location: Inglewood, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| RI Laker wrote: | | Zu is a 21 year old 3rd string center who the FO thinks there is a chance of development given his age and the fact that he is a foreign player. Bottom line is he is ZERO risk. He is the 64th highest paid center in the league. I read the posts and nobody is claiming they love him. I believe they are just being realistic and keeping things in perspective of expectations of a 3rd string center. There are some things this kid can do. I think we just have to trust the process. Our FO has not missed yet. |
Do you think he'll be our 3rd string center? If so, who will backup McGee in the rotation? |
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RI Laker
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7158
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| I think most of the times we go small ball because the NBA's lack of 5's who have length and are dominant underneath. I could see Luke going with Kuz or even Beasley. There are some teams where Zu's # will be called after McGee because of the length and low post games of the opponents 5's. These teams are going to be big headaches for us and there is no way we can go small ball on them for long periods of time. If Zu doesn't pan out, I am sure the FO will fix it down the road. I still think he can handle this role. Hopefully the coaching staff cleans up his mental mistakes. |
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Annihilator wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | Zu is a 21 year old 3rd string center who the FO thinks there is a chance of development given his age and the fact that he is a foreign player. Bottom line is he is ZERO risk. He is the 64th highest paid center in the league. I read the posts and nobody is claiming they love him. I believe they are just being realistic and keeping things in perspective of expectations of a 3rd string center. There are some things this kid can do. I think we just have to trust the process. Our FO has not missed yet. |
^^ Gets it. |
He said what I have been saying but in a much softer sugar coated way. Zu is third string and isn't showing an improvement. That's not good. We need a legit 2nd string backup C
B-Ball Index is ran by someone with actual statistical degrees and is great friends with GoldenThroat aka LFR. The breakdowns by play type are much more important and tell more about his game than simple +- stats like DBPM. Here is the link to explanation of how their Grades work:
https://twitter.com/T1m_NBA/status/1052386530998796289 |
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Purp 32 wrote: | | I don't understand where all of this Zu love comes from. Do you guys watch other teams? He might be a bottom 5 worst backup center in the league. |
I'm not surprised. Many Laker fans overrated our players. Remember Anthony Brown and Ryan Kelly |
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CantStopJM
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Joined: 03 Oct 2017
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Those same advanced stats that these Zubac defenders use are the same stats that showed Ingram was an awful player last year. Use your eyes, Zubac is a bum. Magic and Pelinka guaranteeing his contract doesn't mean he doesn't suck, it means they thought he would get better and improve and they were wrong or they thought he sucked less than Thomas Bryant. |
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PlantedTanks
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Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 3156
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| CantStopJM wrote: | | Those same advanced stats that these Zubac defenders use are the same stats that showed Ingram was an awful player last year. Use your eyes, Zubac is a bum. Magic and Pelinka guaranteeing his contract doesn't mean he doesn't suck, it means they thought he would get better and improve and they were wrong or they thought he sucked less than Thomas Bryant. |
So when do we use stats as part of the process? When it is convenient to fit your narrative?
He was sick for a good part of training camp yet came back to play fairly well for the most part according to Dancing Berry's game analysis. Does DB's eyes deceive him? Do we trust DB? For the most part I do.
The season has not even started and you proclaim he is has not improved? Interesting.
Sucked less than Thomas Byrant or they thought he was better than Thomas Bryant. Semantics.
I am realistic. Don't expect an all-star and not necessarily a starter but he can be a rotation player with a positive impact on the court.
Btw I trust my eyes more than any other here. However I don't dismiss facts or never change my opinion when a solid argument is made. Use your eyes is not a solid argument.
I was asked by a poster to show the analytics. Well I did yet it is dismissed and that poster conveniently disregards the numbers in his follow up post because he cannot refute the numbers.
So back to my first questions. When do we use stats as part of the process? When it fits your narrative? |
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CRoost
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Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | Purp 32 wrote: | | I don't understand where all of this Zu love comes from. Do you guys watch other teams? He might be a bottom 5 worst backup center in the league. |
I'm not surprised. Many Laker fans overrated our players. Remember Anthony Brown and Ryan Kelly |
Lol every fans from all teams overrated their players to some degree. We have Mbenga as a 3rd string in our championship team and Slava too. At least Zu has some skills and swatting ability. I’m ok with him as a 3rd string and our insurance policy. He’s still young and cheap for us to give up on him. |
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| PlantedTanks wrote: | | CantStopJM wrote: | | Those same advanced stats that these Zubac defenders use are the same stats that showed Ingram was an awful player last year. Use your eyes, Zubac is a bum. Magic and Pelinka guaranteeing his contract doesn't mean he doesn't suck, it means they thought he would get better and improve and they were wrong or they thought he sucked less than Thomas Bryant. |
So when do we use stats as part of the process? When it is convenient to fit your narrative?
He was sick for a good part of training camp yet came back to play fairly well for the most part according to Dancing Berry's game analysis. Does DB's eyes deceive him? Do we trust DB? For the most part I do.
The season has not even started and you proclaim he is has not improved? Interesting.
Sucked less than Thomas Byrant or they thought he was better than Thomas Bryant. Semantics.
I am realistic. Don't expect an all-star and not necessarily a starter but he can be a rotation player with a positive impact on the court.
Btw I trust my eyes more than any other here. However I don't dismiss facts or never change my opinion when a solid argument is made. Use your eyes is not a solid argument.
I was asked by a poster to show the analytics. Well I did yet it is dismissed and that poster conveniently disregards the numbers in his follow up post because he cannot refute the numbers.
So back to my first questions. When do we use stats as part of the process? When it fits your narrative? |
When you watch Zu play are you impressed? Do you think what you see from him on the court is reflected by those numbers? Using those stats to prove Zu is a good player is foolish. He played like 9 MPG and less than 45 games.
You have yet to reply to my criticisms of Zu's actual on court play. Simply posting up numbers doesn't provide the context of his play. |
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waterman40
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Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 6287
Location: Central Coast
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I think if the team wanted another backup center, they would have kept Brook and not signed either Lance or Beasley. There was also several other plodders out there they could have gone for, but they chose to stay the course. If Zubac plays 50-60 games (given how we may go to a lot of small ball when McGee is not in the game) , and gives us 6 points, 3, boards, and the occasional block, we at least break even on our investment. And if Zubac plays much time on the floor with Lebron, he gets used like the Cavs era Mozgov, and we will see quite a few 10 point plus games from him.
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PlantedTanks
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Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 3156
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| The Juggernaut wrote: | | PlantedTanks wrote: | | CantStopJM wrote: | | Those same advanced stats that these Zubac defenders use are the same stats that showed Ingram was an awful player last year. Use your eyes, Zubac is a bum. Magic and Pelinka guaranteeing his contract doesn't mean he doesn't suck, it means they thought he would get better and improve and they were wrong or they thought he sucked less than Thomas Bryant. |
So when do we use stats as part of the process? When it is convenient to fit your narrative?
He was sick for a good part of training camp yet came back to play fairly well for the most part according to Dancing Berry's game analysis. Does DB's eyes deceive him? Do we trust DB? For the most part I do.
The season has not even started and you proclaim he is has not improved? Interesting.
Sucked less than Thomas Byrant or they thought he was better than Thomas Bryant. Semantics.
I am realistic. Don't expect an all-star and not necessarily a starter but he can be a rotation player with a positive impact on the court.
Btw I trust my eyes more than any other here. However I don't dismiss facts or never change my opinion when a solid argument is made. Use your eyes is not a solid argument.
I was asked by a poster to show the analytics. Well I did yet it is dismissed and that poster conveniently disregards the numbers in his follow up post because he cannot refute the numbers.
So back to my first questions. When do we use stats as part of the process? When it fits your narrative? |
When you watch Zu play are you impressed? Do you think what you see from him on the court is reflected by those numbers? Using those stats to prove Zu is a good player is foolish. He played like 9 MPG and less than 45 games.
You have yet to reply to my criticisms of Zu's actual on court play. Simply posting up numbers doesn't provide the context of his play. |
Just off the top of my head.
My eyes tell me he has more effective post moves than most young centers in the game. Not as good a J Okafor but pretty damn good.
He is a very good mid-range shooter also reflected by his FT%.
He is a good rebounder since his 1st year and is a good not great rim protector.
He has trouble defending on switches as most centers and power forwards do. Will body up defending in the post and as he gets stronger (only 21) will continue to improve in this area.
Will not be a good 3pt shooter as his shot is flat but it works mid-range.
Very effective on pick and pops with his mid-range and as has been mentioned by others in PNR.
Not a fast runner but surely faster than Brook Lopez and similar to other centers like him (Gortat, Gasol, Adams).
Average to below average vertical but has a good wing span.
Yes numbers don't give the full context but neither just stating what your eyes tell you. Are you going to dismiss all the numbers? Stats + my eyes (see above) tells me he has potential to be a solid rotation player given his age and being an Intl. |
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