The Fruits of 2013-16: I Declare that the Tank is Dead (RIP, 2013-16)
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RCS926
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:57 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
Last year's team wins at least 25 with Luke instead of Byron, and without Kobe and Hibbert, right? I mean Kobe + Hibbert were in pretty much every one of the teams' worst lineups... and Byron is Byron.

With the improvements from age and adding Ingram (who I think will be replacement level for limited minutes due to his shooting + length), it seems 28-30 wins is a reasonable floor for the team as constructed?

Never mind free agents.

I get the pessimism but we're not going to be winning games in the teens anymore, I think. Not without Scott sabotaging the effectiveness of every player.


I don't think people realize how detrimental Kobe was to the team. He averaged almost 18 ppg but shot less than 36% while using over 30% of the possessions while he was on the floor. Our starting center averaged 6 and 5 while shooting 44% and providing minimal defensive presence in the paint. On top of that, Byron's iso-ball offense made it extremely difficult for anyone to get good shots. I think it's going to become clear to everyone early next season just how much better our team is without the aforementioned factors holding us back.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject:

RCS926 wrote:
tox wrote:
Last year's team wins at least 25 with Luke instead of Byron, and without Kobe and Hibbert, right? I mean Kobe + Hibbert were in pretty much every one of the teams' worst lineups... and Byron is Byron.

With the improvements from age and adding Ingram (who I think will be replacement level for limited minutes due to his shooting + length), it seems 28-30 wins is a reasonable floor for the team as constructed?

Never mind free agents.

I get the pessimism but we're not going to be winning games in the teens anymore, I think. Not without Scott sabotaging the effectiveness of every player.


I don't think people realize how detrimental Kobe was to the team. He averaged almost 18 ppg but shot less than 36% while using over 30% of the possessions while he was on the floor. Our starting center averaged 6 and 5 while shooting 44% and providing minimal defensive presence in the paint. On top of that, Byron's iso-ball offense made it extremely difficult for anyone to get good shots. I think it's going to become clear to everyone early next season just how much better our team is without the aforementioned factors holding us back.


Kobe was possibly the worst starter in the league (and definitely the worst leading scorer of a team) and he played in an offense that encouraged his inclinations to isolate. Removing Kobe and Byron and implementing a modern free flowing offense should at least take us from being tied for league worst in offensive efficiency to hopefully at least middle of the pack. That is also assuming incremental improvements from the young guys already on the team. It's debatable how many more wins that translates into but I'd be shocked if this team struggled just to reach 20 wins without injuries playing a role. Personally, I think 30 wins is within reach with if we sign solid vets and doubling our win total (33-35 wins) to be the high end of my optimism.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:52 pm    Post subject:

RCS926 wrote:
Nordvader wrote:
I guess like some, I refuse to buy into the hopes and dreams of improvement without actually results. Just because the young players could be great don't mean that they will be.


It must suck to live life without hope.
Retract.
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Last edited by Vancouver Fan on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nordvader
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
RCS926 wrote:
Nordvader wrote:
I guess like some, I refuse to buy into the hopes and dreams of improvement without actually results. Just because the young players could be great don't mean that they will be.


It must suck to live life without hope.
Or without Okafor.


I was never pro Okafor either but nice try.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject:

Nordvader wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:


Each season has to be treated separately, but the 2013-16 period can be treated as on epoch, albeit 3 separate chapters.

I do believe b/c of the way they set their salary cap position, and subsequent failures during FA (as well as Kobe's obvious decline and injuries), they chose to tank at certain points. However, they also set a plan to amass assets, and punt cap space for the next year. And when that failed, they tanked again.

This offseason is completely different. The point of the Tank was to amass top players, and preserve cap space, all the while letting Kobe play out his contract.

Mission accomplished on all 3 above.

There is no need for a tank, given the likely improbability of getting another top 3 pick. We HAVE all the promising young players we need to either improve them or trade them.

We literally had no trade assets until we got Randle, who then became injured. We now have a ton of marquee trade assets that we can move if necessary. But we also have cap space.

So to answer your question, the Tank is dead.


So basically what you're saying is season by season whatever illusion assumption or excuse the front office gives for the failures of these past season, you chose to believe it no matter what way you have to argue it.
Pretty obvious you've never seen what rebuilding from scratch looks like.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject:

Nordvader wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
RCS926 wrote:
Nordvader wrote:
I guess like some, I refuse to buy into the hopes and dreams of improvement without actually results. Just because the young players could be great don't mean that they will be.


It must suck to live life without hope.
Or without Okafor.


I was never pro Okafor either but nice try.
sure, sure.
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pio2u
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject:

Lakers tank too much!
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Nordvader
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:56 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:


sure, sure.


Whatever helps you sleep at night, find me a post of mine where I stated I wanted Okafor over Russell and I'll concede other than that stop assuming.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject:

Nordvader wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:


sure, sure.


Whatever helps you sleep at night, find me a post of mine where I stated I wanted Okafor over Russell and I'll concede other than that stop assuming.
I'm a mind reader. I sleep well. I'm just messing dude. I retract my Okafor statement.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:31 pm    Post subject:

1) Rookies are almost NEVER net positives on the court. Expecting Ingram to make a huge difference in his rookie season is fairly similar to those who expected DeAngelo to do the same last year. How did that work out?
2) Sophomores RARELY end up as net positives. It's even more unlikely when they're young sophomores like D-Lo who is still not even 21 years old.
3) Lou Williams is still the best player on the roster.
4) "Tanking" and "Losing" is a B.S. distinction nearly devoid of any real substance. So instead of competing for the bottom three spots, we are now going to be somewhere in the bottom 5-10. This is a cause for celebration? Okay.

I agree with those saying that this roster is garbage as constructed. The potential is awesome but that's all it is. Free agency is going to determine whether this roster even sniffs 30 wins. As is, I'd expect something in the 20s as far as wins go. We have added exactly zero proven net positive players to a 17 win team. Expecting development and the first year of a new system to double our wins is beyond optimistic.

I'll wait for free agency before I start expecting something resembling a competitive team.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:02 pm    Post subject:

There appears to be confusion on what tanking means.
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lakerlove123
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:13 pm    Post subject:

Any time losing starts to become acceptable in your mind, that's tanking. Players can tank, FOs can tank. I think it's safe to say that there were higher hopes from the FO during the Byron era but also the real possibility that things wouldn't work out winning-wise, which they certainly didn't.

In my mind a losing record means a place in the lottery, and draft picks to start building your future.

Free agency is neither here nor there. OP is right, there are no more excuses for anything but success.

It may take time, boys, but we're slingin' our packs over our backs and finally hittin' the road.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:20 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
sickside323 wrote:
And a big wad of cash to spend to bring in elite-level talent.

It felt like forever but it should be worth it.


Seriously. Longest 3 years of being a Lakers fan (and have been for over 30 years). But we are now poised for a big time comeback. I don't expect ALL the young players to be part of our next championship core team, but we have all the tools to get there now.


91'-95' was a worse drought, imo.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
I don't expect alot of FA success.

Doubt we win 30 games this upcoming season.
Whether that's considered tanking (after-the-fact) will come down to semantics.


More than semantics; it's about intentions.

And I think we have a very good chance to win 30+ games (and I've been very pessimistic about win projections for the previous 2 seasons).


I'm not sure our intentions were to tank these past couple years. I think it's a convenient narrative after the fact.
But I don't care about intentions, just results. And at least we got 3 top-7 picks out of it.

Can't in good conscious say we'll be a 30+ win team next year. Minnesota with back to back ROYs didn't reach 30 wins.

Depends if we have a starting caliber 2-way player on the roster.
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lukewaltonsdad
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:35 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
I don't expect alot of FA success.

Doubt we win 30 games this upcoming season.
Whether that's considered tanking (after-the-fact) will come down to semantics.


More than semantics; it's about intentions.

And I think we have a very good chance to win 30+ games (and I've been very pessimistic about win projections for the previous 2 seasons).


I'm not sure our intentions were to tank these past couple years. I think it's a convenient narrative after the fact.
But I don't care about intentions, just results. And at least we got 3 top-7 picks out of it.

Can't in good conscious say we'll be a 30+ win team next year. Minnesota with back to back ROYs didn't reach 30 wins.

Depends if we have a starting caliber 2-way player on the roster.


They had 29 on the cusp of 30; plus, Sam Mitchell was coaching that team. I'd say with a competent coach they'd probably reach 34-36 wins, IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject:

L4L wrote:
1) Rookies are almost NEVER net positives on the court. Expecting Ingram to make a huge difference in his rookie season is fairly similar to those who expected DeAngelo to do the same last year. How did that work out?
2) Sophomores RARELY end up as net positives. It's even more unlikely when they're young sophomores like D-Lo who is still not even 21 years old.
3) Lou Williams is still the best player on the roster.
4) "Tanking" and "Losing" is a B.S. distinction nearly devoid of any real substance. So instead of competing for the bottom three spots, we are now going to be somewhere in the bottom 5-10. This is a cause for celebration? Okay.

I agree with those saying that this roster is garbage as constructed. The potential is awesome but that's all it is. Free agency is going to determine whether this roster even sniffs 30 wins. As is, I'd expect something in the 20s as far as wins go. We have added exactly zero proven net positive players to a 17 win team. Expecting development and the first year of a new system to double our wins is beyond optimistic.

I'll wait for free agency before I start expecting something resembling a competitive team.


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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject:

Lol. Again folks confusing "tanking" with not being a championship or playoff caliber team.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:17 pm    Post subject:

The pick is top 3 protected. Lets see how it goes.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:23 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The pick is top 3 protected. Lets see how it goes.


Are we bringing Byron and Kobe back?
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:33 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Lol. Again folks confusing "tanking" with not being a championship or playoff caliber team.


I seriously wonder how there can be any confusion at all. It's bizarre.

Maybe we try a different term. Sandbagging. Maybe that helps?

Probably not. Sigh.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:58 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
The pick is top 3 protected. Lets see how it goes.


Are we bringing Byron and Kobe back?


Start Zubac after the all-star break. Let him learn against the best.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:25 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
I don't expect alot of FA success.

Doubt we win 30 games this upcoming season.
Whether that's considered tanking (after-the-fact) will come down to semantics.


More than semantics; it's about intentions.

And I think we have a very good chance to win 30+ games (and I've been very pessimistic about win projections for the previous 2 seasons).


I'm not sure our intentions were to tank these past couple years. I think it's a convenient narrative after the fact.
But I don't care about intentions, just results. And at least we got 3 top-7 picks out of it.

Can't in good conscious say we'll be a 30+ win team next year. Minnesota with back to back ROYs didn't reach 30 wins.

Depends if we have a starting caliber 2-way player on the roster.


Correct. I think those apparently believing subtracting KFT and Byron will make our players better defensive players are fooling themselves.

The primary reason why the Lakers were bad last year was due to a lack of defense. We don't have a 2 way player on the entire roster.

Randle - gives up way too much on the d end due to his size, and has limited offensive game.

Russell - not a good defender
Clarkson - makes Nick Young look like a good defender
Ingram - will struggle on defense because he's a rookie
Nance - good athlete/defender, lacking an offensive game
Nick Young - nope
Lou Williams - nope

This is a 25 win roster at best.

Our team defensive efficiency was DEAD LAST in the NBA last year.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/defensive-efficiency
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:29 pm    Post subject:



Let's talk after the 60m plus in cap space is used.

And again. Not being a 40+ win team doesn't mean we are tanking.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:


Let's talk after the 60m plus in cap space is used.

And again. Not being a 40+ win team doesn't mean we are tanking.


What would 30 or under be considered?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:55 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:


Let's talk after the 60m plus in cap space is used.

And again. Not being a 40+ win team doesn't mean we are tanking.


What would 30 or under be considered?


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