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governator
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 Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Melo-Porzingis-D.Rose-C.Lee looks good actually
Noah looking garbage |
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22
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: |
L M A O. I'm shocked.
However...to be fair, I think the two of them are delusional about what Rose brings to the table. Last season he was among the least efficient player of anyone that played more than 32mpg and that includes Kobe that dgaf. Defensively, his Drpm reverted back to his pre Thibs days at -3.17 (he was about average with Thibs). He was the 81st PG in RPM at -4.17. That is swimming in waters that the ever drunk Lawson, the ever not very good Napier tread. That's god awful.
It's not. 2010. Anymore. |
Can anyone paste the text of this article? It's blocked at work for some reason smh. I'm going to watch Dr. Strange tonight with a friend who is a knicks fan and I would like some fresh ammo please  |
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Vancouver Fan
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Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: |
L M A O. I'm shocked.
However...to be fair, I think the two of them are delusional about what Rose brings to the table. Last season he was among the least efficient player of anyone that played more than 32mpg and that includes Kobe that dgaf. Defensively, his Drpm reverted back to his pre Thibs days at -3.17 (he was about average with Thibs). He was the 81st PG in RPM at -4.17. That is swimming in waters that the ever drunk Lawson, the ever not very good Napier tread. That's god awful.
It's not. 2010. Anymore. |
Can anyone paste the text of this article? It's blocked at work for some reason smh. I'm going to watch Dr. Strange tonight with a friend who is a knicks fan and I would like some fresh ammo please |
| Quote: | When Jeff Hornacek was hired as the head coach of the New York Knicks, it was claimed that he would have full freedom to run his own offense.
That has not quite happened.
As part of Phil Jackson’s master plan, the Knicks are continuing to run the Triangle offense in large part. And as has been the case since Phil’s arrival in New York, it isn’t going over too well.
Following a brutal loss to the Cleveland Cavaliers on opening night, Derrick Rose once again declared his preference over running pick-and-rolls over the Triangle.
Following via Stefan Bondy of the New York Daily News:
“With me, of course, I want pick and roll every time down,” he said, “but with the triangle, with the auto, towards the end, when you saw us running it, it was just us trying to get used to it so it’s not that foreign.”
Carmelo Anthony agreed with his new teammate:
“We want guys to feel comfortable with kind of who they are. We don’t want to try to change anybody’s game. If Derrick feels comfortable being up there in high pick and roll, that’s his game, you can’t take him away from that,” Anthony said. “You want to utilize guys’ strengths. That’s who he is, that’s who he’s always been. We want to rely on that. We don’t want to take that away from him.”
These are already some scathing quotes one game into the season, but they make sense. When Derrick Rose is playing well (which is not often, these days), he is able to get to the rim at will and finish around the trees. He is not at all a prototypical Triangle point guard, especially considering his lack of a shooting touch.
I’m sure Hornacek isn’t too crazy about running the Triangle, either. Even though most teams run elements from the infamous system, not many have focused their franchise identity around it. Jackson has an almost cult-like obsession with the Triangle as it helped him win eleven rings as a coach. But it’s time to move on and build around the players he has. |
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22
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Vancouver Fan!!
 MAN I'M SO GLAD PHIL IS NOT IN OUR FRONT OFFICE |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | Thank you Vancouver Fan!!
MAN I'M SO GLAD PHIL IS NOT IN OUR FRONT OFFICE |
We're not out of the woods yet.
And again, this outcome for the Knicks is the most predictable thing to happen in basketball the last 3 years. |
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The Logo
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I always thought that the Knicks were going to be a 35-40 win team that could sneak into the playoffs if healthy. Rose is just not a suitable starting PG in 2016; Prime Melo couldn't play with a little bit past his prime AI, how can he play a little bit out of his prime with an over the hill Rose? |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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It's not as much the offense being horrible as it is the players being overrated. You can't win many games with the back court and Noah as your starting center. Rose and Noah are washed up, Porzingis is overrated(still good but not as good as advertised) and Melo needs isos to play his game.
Side note: Why the hell is Melo complaining about the triangle? it fits him better than any offense in NBA history |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | 22 wrote: | Thank you Vancouver Fan!!
MAN I'M SO GLAD PHIL IS NOT IN OUR FRONT OFFICE |
We're not out of the woods yet.
And again, this outcome for the Knicks is the most predictable thing to happen in basketball the last 3 years. |
Nothing wrong with Phil coming here IMO. Luke will have established an identity by then and the triangle can be useful in certain situations but would obviously not be what we run a majority of the time.
With Randle, Russell, and eventually Zubacs ability to score and pass out of the post, they could very effectively use triangle concepts on SLOB and BLOB plays as well as when we are trying to slow down the pace and grind out wins with late leads. I trust Luke's ability to decide when its appropriate to use.
That first post iso for Zubac against Atlanta looked a hell of a lot like the old triangle days. Phil is obviously too attached to it but Luke is the perfect guy to pull him into the new age while still picking his brain. It's antiquated as a permanent offense but don't fool yourself into thinking the triangle can't still be effective if used correctly in certain situations. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | It's not as much the offense being horrible as it is the players being overrated. You can't win many games with the back court and Noah as your starting center. Rose and Noah are washed up, Porzingis is overrated(still good but not as good as advertised) and Melo needs isos to play his game.
Side note: Why the hell is Melo complaining about the triangle? it fits him better than any offense in NBA history |
Perhaps Melo has sensed (or heard) that Phil might be leaving in the near future.. Melo could have decided to be a frontrunner and create some distance from Phil and things associated with him such as the Triangle. The level of Palace Intrigue with the Knicks, Dolan, Melo etc is probably quite high and possibly more than a Player like Phil can handle. |
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RestEasyBlackMamba
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil should've never re-signed Melo and started new |
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | 22 wrote: | Thank you Vancouver Fan!!
MAN I'M SO GLAD PHIL IS NOT IN OUR FRONT OFFICE |
We're not out of the woods yet.
And again, this outcome for the Knicks is the most predictable thing to happen in basketball the last 3 years. |
Nothing wrong with Phil coming here IMO. Luke will have established an identity by then and the triangle can be useful in certain situations but would obviously not be what we run a majority of the time.
With Randle, Russell, and eventually Zubacs ability to score and pass out of the post, they could very effectively use triangle concepts on SLOB and BLOB plays as well as when we are trying to slow down the pace and grind out wins with late leads. I trust Luke's ability to decide when its appropriate to use.
That first post iso for Zubac against Atlanta looked a hell of a lot like the old triangle days. Phil is obviously too attached to it but Luke is the perfect guy to pull him into the new age while still picking his brain. It's antiquated as a permanent offense but don't fool yourself into thinking the triangle can't still be effective if used correctly in certain situations. |
There's lots wrong with phil coming here. HE should retire. Go out with some dignity man. He's the goat coach. THAT'S it.
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MJST
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: |
And... Courtney Lee made a great point tonight:
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Still defense is the issue. The Knicks have allowed 119, 112 and 118 points in their three losses.
Courtney Lee suggested the Knicks may need to practice against other offensive approaches in practice, aside from the triangle.
“I think we need to practice against pick and rolls, against other looks,” Lee said. |
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So they PRACTICE defense ONLY against other triangle sets?
Phil has lost it ladies and gents. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it's obvious at all that we wouldn't run the Triangle the majority of the time if Phil comes here. His entire tenure in New York has been one massive exercise in ego, with him trying to validate his own genius & prove the "Phil won because he had MJ/Pippen/Shaq/Kobe" crowd wrong. Except that's exactly why he won, and his contribution to that was his ability to get those extremely talented people to work together.
He's lorded over coaches his entire tenure...conducting "Triangle seminars" in the offseason, before he even had a coach...but he's gonna suddenly come to LA and not meddle? I'll believe it when I see it.
Luke walked in w/no experience but 21st century ideas on how to play offensive basketball, and he has a collection of children ranked 12th in the NBA in Offensive Rating, despite playing one of the most difficult schedules in the NBA so far, almost entirely on the road. There's no mystical quality to the Triangle, and no big payoff after you've played in it for a long time. It's a crap offense in 2016, and that's why no one else runs it, aside from a set here & there. |
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unleasHell
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Joined: 16 Apr 2001
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Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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How many "L"'s in "will"?
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lakers0505
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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What?
This on court abomination isn't working?? What?!  |
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | I don't think it's obvious at all that we wouldn't run the Triangle the majority of the time if Phil comes here. His entire tenure in New York has been one massive exercise in ego, with him trying to validate his own genius & prove the "Phil won because he had MJ/Pippen/Shaq/Kobe" crowd wrong. Except that's exactly why he won, and his contribution to that was his ability to get those extremely talented people to work together.
He's lorded over coaches his entire tenure...conducting "Triangle seminars" in the offseason, before he even had a coach...but he's gonna suddenly come to LA and not meddle? I'll believe it when I see it.
Luke walked in w/no experience but 21st century ideas on how to play offensive basketball, and he has a collection of children ranked 12th in the NBA in Offensive Rating, despite playing one of the most difficult schedules in the NBA so far, almost entirely on the road. There's no mystical quality to the Triangle, and no big payoff after you've played in it for a long time. It's a crap offense in 2016, and that's why no one else runs it, aside from a set here & there. |
My thoughts exactly. Honestly terrified of what could happen to this franchise if Phil is managing it. There's finally a fresh and fun, patient process and there's real improvement. Watching this all be thrown away would be heartbreaking.
Buss family really needs to pay attention to what's going on in NYK. Not even talking about Jeannie, I'm talking about the rest of her siblings who could have input in what happens with Jim as well, and who succeeds him.
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City_Dawg
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Could you imagine the absolute (bleep) that would happen if Phil Jackson left the Knicks early? For the Lakers no less? New York would burn through every expletive imaginable.
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22
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | 22 wrote: | Thank you Vancouver Fan!!
MAN I'M SO GLAD PHIL IS NOT IN OUR FRONT OFFICE |
We're not out of the woods yet.
And again, this outcome for the Knicks is the most predictable thing to happen in basketball the last 3 years. |
GT why you gon post that when you know I need to sleep at fam?
I'm saying I got enough stress as it is and I ain't trying to be looking over my shoulder terrified that the ghost of Phil Jackson is lurking.
I said last year that if we retained Byron it would set this franchise back another ten years. The same is true if we ever bring Phil back in any capacity where he has influence on personnel decisions other than being a Mickey Mouse figure head used for recruitment purposes. And I'm even afraid of that because no way will his ego allow that to be his only role. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | I don't think it's obvious at all that we wouldn't run the Triangle the majority of the time if Phil comes here. His entire tenure in New York has been one massive exercise in ego, with him trying to validate his own genius & prove the "Phil won because he had MJ/Pippen/Shaq/Kobe" crowd wrong. Except that's exactly why he won, and his contribution to that was his ability to get those extremely talented people to work together.
He's lorded over coaches his entire tenure...conducting "Triangle seminars" in the offseason, before he even had a coach...but he's gonna suddenly come to LA and not meddle? I'll believe it when I see it.
Luke walked in w/no experience but 21st century ideas on how to play offensive basketball, and he has a collection of children ranked 12th in the NBA in Offensive Rating, despite playing one of the most difficult schedules in the NBA so far, almost entirely on the road. There's no mystical quality to the Triangle, and no big payoff after you've played in it for a long time. It's a crap offense in 2016, and that's why no one else runs it, aside from a set here & there. |
My thoughts exactly. Honestly terrified of what could happen to this franchise if Phil is managing it. There's finally a fresh and fun, patient process and there's real improvement. Watching this all be thrown away would be heartbreaking.
Buss family really needs to pay attention to what's going on in NYK. Not even talking about Jeannie, I'm talking about the rest of her siblings who could have input in what happens with Jim as well, and who succeeds him. |
I don't have any illusions about Jim meeting his stupid deadline. However I DO have hopes of us finishing with a better record than the Knicks. That would be a catastrophic indictment of Phil's methods over there and would make it a really tough sell for anyone trying to bring him to LA. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Brooklyn already has two wins and I would expect Phil to leave the Knicks if they finish the season with a W/L record roughly equal to the Nets.
Prokhorov appears to have gotten it right bringing in Sean Marks and Kenny Atkinson. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:01 am Post subject: |
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For me, the question keeps coming back to who is going to be the owner with the final say if not Jim? It isn't going to be an employee, who can be given a lot of autonomy, but who can never really be that final guy. And it can't really be a committee either. So unless Jeanie is going to bring in Phil and basically take the reins on the ownership side (meaning no one to check Phil at all), you're left with the uncomfortable truth that there isn't some hidden Buss sibling that's sharper at this than Jim.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | I don't think it's obvious at all that we wouldn't run the Triangle the majority of the time if Phil comes here. His entire tenure in New York has been one massive exercise in ego, with him trying to validate his own genius & prove the "Phil won because he had MJ/Pippen/Shaq/Kobe" crowd wrong. Except that's exactly why he won, and his contribution to that was his ability to get those extremely talented people to work together.
He's lorded over coaches his entire tenure...conducting "Triangle seminars" in the offseason, before he even had a coach...but he's gonna suddenly come to LA and not meddle? I'll believe it when I see it.
Luke walked in w/no experience but 21st century ideas on how to play offensive basketball, and he has a collection of children ranked 12th in the NBA in Offensive Rating, despite playing one of the most difficult schedules in the NBA so far, almost entirely on the road. There's no mystical quality to the Triangle, and no big payoff after you've played in it for a long time. It's a crap offense in 2016, and that's why no one else runs it, aside from a set here & there. |
Phil was asked to establish a new culture and identity in NY and was given complete power. That wouldn't be the role he would be brought in to fill. IF that's the only way he'd come back then I agree with you but I don't see that happening. After this year, the Lakers will no longer look like a tear it down and rebuild type situation like they have been and the Knicks were when Phil took over. Luke will have established an identity and culture by then. He and Mitch will have just as much power if not more than Phil would.
Utilizing triangle concepts is still fairly prevalent in the NBA. Just last game the Lakers ran a set out of the triangle the very first play for Zubac. When he develops into a starting center as many of us expect, it will only become more and more prevalent. Especially with Russell and Randle's ability to post up. I'm sure you've noticed the weak-side triangle concepts being used for those guys but with more modern concepts and ideas mixed in, like the post up pick n roll they have been running. You really don't think Phil's input for those situations would be valuable?
Also, he's still the zen master after all. He will be able to mentor Luke and teach him more of the old tricks on how to manage egos. No matter how much he gets along with our players, if/when they become stars, there are gonna be some issues on who gets the ball, last shot, who's the alpha etc. Phil would be able to without a doubt help in those types of situation. I don't believe he is the petty old man who is only worried about himself like many on here believe and I could see him thriving in a similar role to Jerry West in Golden State. |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | Phil was asked to establish a new culture and identity in NY and was given complete power. That wouldn't be the role he would be brought in to fill. IF that's the only way he'd come back then I agree with you but I don't see that happening. After this year, the Lakers will no longer look like a tear it down and rebuild type situation like they have been and the Knicks were when Phil took over. Luke will have established an identity and culture by then. He and Mitch will have just as much power if not more than Phil would.
Utilizing triangle concepts is still fairly prevalent in the NBA. Just last game the Lakers ran a set out of the triangle the very first play for Zubac. When he develops into a starting center as many of us expect, it will only become more and more prevalent. Especially with Russell and Randle's ability to post up. I'm sure you've noticed the weak-side triangle concepts being used for those guys but with more modern concepts and ideas mixed in, like the post up pick n roll they have been running. You really don't think Phil's input for those situations would be valuable?
Also, he's still the zen master after all. He will be able to mentor Luke and teach him more of the old tricks on how to manage egos. No matter how much he gets along with our players, if/when they become stars, there are gonna be some issues on who gets the ball, last shot, who's the alpha etc. Phil would be able to without a doubt help in those types of situation. I don't believe he is the petty old man who is only worried about himself like many on here believe and I could see him thriving in a similar role to Jerry West in Golden State. |
You have to drop the bar ridiculously low and stake claims to common NBA actions to argue the prevalence of the Triangle in the modern NBA. A Split Cut off of post entry (Zubac play) means that you're running the Triangle about as much as back-cutting means that you're running Princeton or running a high Pick & Roll means that you're running D'Antoni's stuff. For example, on the Zubac play you have Russell & Deng spaced behind the 3pt line at the weak side wing & corner. In the Triangle, one of them would be at the pinch post.
Same is true w/weakside 2-man game and a variety of other actions that are common to any number of offenses. Aside from a set here & there, the Triangle is run in exactly one place in the NBA, and that's in New York, where it's been (predictably) ineffectual & the players (predictably) hate it. And no, I don't think that having Phil's input would be helpful, for the same reasons why he's unable to make the Triangle run effectively in NY. He would hurt our offense, not help it. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | I don't think it's obvious at all that we wouldn't run the Triangle the majority of the time if Phil comes here. His entire tenure in New York has been one massive exercise in ego, with him trying to validate his own genius & prove the "Phil won because he had MJ/Pippen/Shaq/Kobe" crowd wrong. Except that's exactly why he won, and his contribution to that was his ability to get those extremely talented people to work together.
He's lorded over coaches his entire tenure...conducting "Triangle seminars" in the offseason, before he even had a coach...but he's gonna suddenly come to LA and not meddle? I'll believe it when I see it.
Luke walked in w/no experience but 21st century ideas on how to play offensive basketball, and he has a collection of children ranked 12th in the NBA in Offensive Rating, despite playing one of the most difficult schedules in the NBA so far, almost entirely on the road. There's no mystical quality to the Triangle, and no big payoff after you've played in it for a long time. It's a crap offense in 2016, and that's why no one else runs it, aside from a set here & there. |
Phil was asked to establish a new culture and identity in NY and was given complete power. That wouldn't be the role he would be brought in to fill. IF that's the only way he'd come back then I agree with you but I don't see that happening. After this year, the Lakers will no longer look like a tear it down and rebuild type situation like they have been and the Knicks were when Phil took over. Luke will have established an identity and culture by then. He and Mitch will have just as much power if not more than Phil would.
Utilizing triangle concepts is still fairly prevalent in the NBA. Just last game the Lakers ran a set out of the triangle the very first play for Zubac. When he develops into a starting center as many of us expect, it will only become more and more prevalent. Especially with Russell and Randle's ability to post up. I'm sure you've noticed the weak-side triangle concepts being used for those guys but with more modern concepts and ideas mixed in, like the post up pick n roll they have been running. You really don't think Phil's input for those situations would be valuable?
Also, he's still the zen master after all. He will be able to mentor Luke and teach him more of the old tricks on how to manage egos. No matter how much he gets along with our players, if/when they become stars, there are gonna be some issues on who gets the ball, last shot, who's the alpha etc. Phil would be able to without a doubt help in those types of situation. I don't believe he is the petty old man who is only worried about himself like many on here believe and I could see him thriving in a similar role to Jerry West in Golden State. |
Phil was offered the consultant role here and passed. Luke does not need mentoring from Phil, what do we want to see, Luke pitting DLO up against Ingram? Phil's days with the Lakers are done, the Knicks were his opportunity and he spent it on guys like Melo, Rose and Noah. Not horrible if he had a young base to go with them, but he doesn't. Phil needs to enjoy retirement.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| 24ways2die wrote: | | Phil should've never re-signed Melo and started new |
Retaining Melo was probably a high priority for the Knicks since they had traded a fair amount of assets to Denver for him. The Knicks hired Phil in March 2014 and Melo was given a new contract in July 2014. Melo staying with the Knciks could have been a condition of Phil getting his position. If I was Phil, I would have asked about the Melo situation prior to accepting the position.
When he took over as the coach for the Bulls and Lakers, the situations were highly favorable. If Phil was told by Dolan that he had to keep Melo, then that is his own fault for taking on a less than favorable situation.
Phil apparently didn't realize he was going into a situation far different than his stints coaching the Bulls and Lakers.* Taking over as President of the Knicks was jumping into a situation far from favorable that also required skills and experience that he lacked.
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* It is also possible he thought that he was invincible. |
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