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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:10 am    Post subject:

Always find it comical how Laker fans on a Laker board who have seen the Triangle being run on 5 championship teams the most recent in 2010 - which is modern era basketball - can knock it so much.

Rose and Melo may never buy in to a system that doesn't cater to their individual scoring instincts and needs but that's also why they likely stay career losers.

But when reading these articles I found this to be interesting

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The New York Knicks are committed to running the triangle offense again. Though the fans may not be fond of it, Kristaps Porzingis likes the system.

“I like the triangle,” Porzingis said. “My first season, the whole first season we played nothing but the triangle so I know it pretty well. I like the offense. It can only work if everybody believes in it and everybody executes it the right way.”

“We’re starting to learn it now the way we should,” Porzingis said before the Knicks’ Wednesday morning shootaround. “We should have been playing from the beginning of the season. So we’re a little behind. But every game we’re getting a little better. Hopefully, I don’t know when, we can start using it properly and making some impact playing it.”


So their best young player and future believes in the Triangle and thinks it was better when they were running it more often. Probably the only thing Phil did any good as a Knick prez was drafting that kid. He should also think about manning up (hi Byron) and coaching himself. No one knows how to teach it and bring it along during a season with a tactical approach like Phil.

What you do with the Triangle is what we did towards the end of Kobe/Pau/LO run. You set up the spacing faster, at a quick tempo, you look for open shots through the offense but you need team speed to excecute the offense fast. You need great passing bigs and multiple "point" like players. You can run plenty of screen & rolls on the weaker side like we did with Kobe & Pau. I don't think the Knicks have talent to run the offense fast nor the passing from multiple positions. In Melo and Rose they have two ball stoppers.

However Porzingis skill would fit in great with the Triangle. Rose and Melo? No. Thats why Phil has failed as a prez. Investing in players like Melo and Rose. Don't get what Phil was thinking with those two. Rebuild around Porzingis and draft good young players to run the system. If you truly care for the system to stay in the NBA, get your butt down there and coach it. Leave your assistant in charge of it once you've installed the culture and system yourself as coach. Coaching through Rambis won't work. You also have to get rid of ball stoppers. The Laker had a ball stopper in Kobe, but he was one of GOAT and he also was great at passing and reading a D when push came to shove. Pau was a great passer outside of the post and looked to move the ball. You won't see success in any offense that caters to teamwork, player movement, read and react so long as you have players with the skills/habits of Melo and Rose. We had Kobe, but he was a dominant great scorer who manipulated the offense to get his best isolation looks. We had great passing bigs around him and good team speed. The team bought in. I'm sure if the same team existed now with the players in the same age, we'd be running the same offense and be a top 5 team in the league right now. We may not be able to beat the current Warriors or Cavs but that is also a talent thing there as the Cavs/Warriors have even more firepower than the Kobe/Pau teams.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:18 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Always find it comical how Laker fans on a Laker board who have seen the Triangle being run on 5 championship teams the most recent in 2010 - which is modern era basketball - can knock it so much.


I'm glad we amuse you, but the fact remains that the triangle has been a failure for anyone other than Phil Jackson. It not like it hasn't been tried elsewhere.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Always find it comical how Laker fans on a Laker board who have seen the Triangle being run on 5 championship teams the most recent in 2010 - which is modern era basketball - can knock it so much.


Com one, Wolfie. There's a sizeable degree of humor involved here. A lot of us were calling this early on. Only thing left is for Rambis to be named interim coach.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject:

The NBA has changed since 2010, though. That said, I don't think anyone thinks the triangle is inherently a terrible offense in 2017. I think the issue is that it's not the most efficient/effective way of achieving the offense's desired ends. There are much faster and more effective ways to implement offenses that promote spacing, ball movement, off ball player movement and creating good shots.

There's a reason two would-be Phil disciples in Kerr and Walton chose to run offenses that feature some triangle principles rather than running the offense wholesale. And I'd argue that Phil's attachment to the offense shows not only a poor grasp of his own success, but an unhealthy attachment to something that is simply a vehicle for shot creation. If you've read his books, the triangle means more to Phil than simply being an offense. It's a representation of his worldview and spiritual beliefs through basketball.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Always find it comical how Laker fans on a Laker board who have seen the Triangle being run on 5 championship teams the most recent in 2010 - which is modern era basketball - can knock it so much.


I'm glad we amuse you, but the fact remains that the triangle has been a failure for anyone other than Phil Jackson. It not like it hasn't been tried elsewhere.


That has always been the magic. Phil/Tex. Many Triangle acolytes have failed miserably. Shaw. Rambis. Etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:44 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Always find it comical how Laker fans on a Laker board who have seen the Triangle being run on 5 championship teams the most recent in 2010 - which is modern era basketball - can knock it so much.


I'm glad we amuse you, but the fact remains that the triangle has been a failure for anyone other than Phil Jackson. It not like it hasn't been tried elsewhere.


That has always been the magic. Phil/Tex. Many Triangle acolytes have failed miserably. Shaw. Rambis. Etc.
Not only that, Phil had the best players of each generation. MJ, Shaq/Kobe, Kobe. The 2 best isolation players of ALL TIME and the most dominant big man of our generation.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject:

Gimme_the_rock wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Always find it comical how Laker fans on a Laker board who have seen the Triangle being run on 5 championship teams the most recent in 2010 - which is modern era basketball - can knock it so much.


Com one, Wolfie. There's a sizeable degree of humor involved here. A lot of us were calling this early on. Only thing left is for Rambis to be named interim coach.


Frankly I think it's far more "amusing" that years after the Triangle has predictably failed and multiple players and coaches have publicly rejected it that a fan can still advocate for its use. The cult of Phil Jackson's personality claims another victim.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject:

I never bought into the argument that the guys on the Knicks had to buy into the system....they were the wrong players to run the triangle period. Not to mention the triangle is pretty much outdated in todays game when teams are shooting like 50 3's per game.....look at the Rockets for an example. Its a sheer numbers game now and if one team keeps dropping 3's while you are only making 2's, you will eventually lose. The Warriors took an idea from MDA, Cavs eventually embraced it which helped win them a championship last year, and now teams around the league are adopting the same formula in various forms.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Always find it comical how Laker fans on a Laker board who have seen the Triangle being run on 5 championship teams the most recent in 2010 - which is modern era basketball - can knock it so much.


I'm glad we amuse you, but the fact remains that the triangle has been a failure for anyone other than Phil Jackson. It not like it hasn't been tried elsewhere.


That has always been the magic. Phil/Tex. Many Triangle acolytes have failed miserably. Shaw. Rambis. Etc.


And there lies the problem. Phil wants the team to embrace a particular system but he refuses to come in and teach the players about it...he wants to be a GM and no longer wants to coach, whether its due to health reasons or because he's simply tired of coaching. Either let the head coach you hired to run a system the players can succeed in or shut up and assemble a competent roster...
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:45 am    Post subject:

It shouldn't be called the Triangle. It should be called the PhilTex. Those two were the only ones who could extract championships (heck even playoffs) out of it. Sure they had top talent, but PhilTex were the missing ingredients.

No non-PhilTex arrangement will be able to successfully run the PhilTex (aka Triangle). It probably ended once PhilTex broke up and stopped coaching.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject:

Thing being overlooked

Pick and roll and spread basketball is used almost by every team

If 20 teams use high pick and roll then 5 do great 15 not well then you can say hey look those 5 do great. No one looks at the 15 that fail playing spread pick and roll basketball. No focus on the 15. Not many teams have ran the Triangle. The ones who have outside of Jacksons watch have been all lottery talent teams. So what about the teams that actually have talent to win and ran it?? They did well like the Lakers of the 2008-2011 era.

Triangle has been tried a few times by teams with questionable talent. Not with Phil or Tex coaching it. Yet those places it has been tried the talent has been questionable. Dallas in the 90s. Knicks a little. Shaw never ran the Triangle in Denver. Rambo ran it in Minnesota a little. No extremely talented team has truly committed to it the way Jackson/Tex teams have with the Lakers or Bulls. You see examples do Dallas in the 90s or these Knicks. ESPN didn't pick these Knicks to make the playoffs or be over .500

So when teams like that fail people can say hey look it's the Triangle yet the team wasn't even positioned to be any good based on the season predictions.

It remains a fact that Kobe and Jordan struggled to win in any other system. Once they were forced into a system like that they played winning basketball.

I think it could still be successful because the fundamentals of it are still the same elements you need to play winning basketball but you won't see it happen unless the talent is high enough to succeed and the players buy in. These days players don't want to adapt their games and there's such an easier path to play good offense with the spread pick and roll so why bother with the Triangle. That doesn't discount that if a team with the talent to actually be a good playoff team, ran the Triangle they wouldn't actually be good. Like I've said many times with no response if we had Fish/Kobe/Ariza/LO/Pau Lakers we would be top 3 in the West and top 5 in the league while running the Triangle. Not like that team wouldn't be a great team in this era. They have all the talent without a pick and roll PG and still would be a contender.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject:

Father time is undefeated. And the triangle offense the way Phil looks at it, is no exception
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
I never bought into the argument that the guys on the Knicks had to buy into the system....they were the wrong players to run the triangle period. Not to mention the triangle is pretty much outdated in todays game when teams are shooting like 50 3's per game.....look at the Rockets for an example. Its a sheer numbers game now and if one team keeps dropping 3's while you are only making 2's, you will eventually lose. The Warriors took an idea from MDA, Cavs eventually embraced it which helped win them a championship last year, and now teams around the league are adopting the same formula in various forms.
That's on Phil too. He's bringing in the players.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:
Father time is undefeated. And the triangle offense the way Phil looks at it, is no exception


Yep, the game evolves....what worked in 2010 doesn't work now. So unless Phil has up his sleeves a newer updated version of the Triangle offense it doesn't make sense to try to implement it when he isn't even going to coach the team. All I see is a GM undermining his coaches which has a detrimental effect on the team as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Thing being overlooked

Pick and roll and spread basketball is used almost by every team

If 20 teams use high pick and roll then 5 do great 15 not well then you can say hey look those 5 do great. No one looks at the 15 that fail playing spread pick and roll basketball. No focus on the 15. Not many teams have ran the Triangle. The ones who have outside of Jacksons watch have been all lottery talent teams. So what about the teams that actually have talent to win and ran it?? They did well like the Lakers of the 2008-2011 era.

Triangle has been tried a few times by teams with questionable talent. Not with Phil or Tex coaching it. Yet those places it has been tried the talent has been questionable. Dallas in the 90s. Knicks a little. Shaw never ran the Triangle in Denver. Rambo ran it in Minnesota a little. No extremely talented team has truly committed to it the way Jackson/Tex teams have with the Lakers or Bulls. You see examples do Dallas in the 90s or these Knicks. ESPN didn't pick these Knicks to make the playoffs or be over .500

So when teams like that fail people can say hey look it's the Triangle yet the team wasn't even positioned to be any good based on the season predictions.

It remains a fact that Kobe and Jordan struggled to win in any other system. Once they were forced into a system like that they played winning basketball.

I think it could still be successful because the fundamentals of it are still the same elements you need to play winning basketball but you won't see it happen unless the talent is high enough to succeed and the players buy in. These days players don't want to adapt their games and there's such an easier path to play good offense with the spread pick and roll so why bother with the Triangle. That doesn't discount that if a team with the talent to actually be a good playoff team, ran the Triangle they wouldn't actually be good. Like I've said many times with no response if we had Fish/Kobe/Ariza/LO/Pau Lakers we would be top 3 in the West and top 5 in the league while running the Triangle. Not like that team wouldn't be a great team in this era. They have all the talent without a pick and roll PG and still would be a contender.

Even if the triangle can still be successful with elite talent and the coaching of Phil/Tex, I'm still left questioning why Phil would install it mid-season without Phil/Tex to coach it or the elite talent to run it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Triangle has been tried a few times by teams with questionable talent. Not with Phil or Tex coaching it. Yet those places it has been tried the talent has been questionable. Dallas in the 90s. Knicks a little. Shaw never ran the Triangle in Denver. Rambo ran it in Minnesota a little. No extremely talented team has truly committed to it the way Jackson/Tex teams have with the Lakers or Bulls.


Riddle me this: If you need an extremely talented team to succeed with the triangle, then why do you need the triangle? After all, you already have an extremely talented team, so you can run whatever you want.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject:

this age has not threaded well
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Triangle has been tried a few times by teams with questionable talent. Not with Phil or Tex coaching it. Yet those places it has been tried the talent has been questionable. Dallas in the 90s. Knicks a little. Shaw never ran the Triangle in Denver. Rambo ran it in Minnesota a little. No extremely talented team has truly committed to it the way Jackson/Tex teams have with the Lakers or Bulls.


Riddle me this: If you need an extremely talented team to succeed with the triangle, then why do you need the triangle? After all, you already have an extremely talented team, so you can run whatever you want.


This is the way I see things. Its more about the players than the offense. You have the best players in the league, you will probably win more often than you lose. I don't care if you're running the west coast offense in basketball. You got Lebron, Durant, Curry, Thompson, Irving, you are going to win. The Knicks have a career loser in Carmelo, an injury riddled x-all star who is a shadow of his former self and a talented teenager. Triangle or not they aren't built to win.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject:

You know what? (bleep) the Knicks.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Triangle has been tried a few times by teams with questionable talent. Not with Phil or Tex coaching it. Yet those places it has been tried the talent has been questionable. Dallas in the 90s. Knicks a little. Shaw never ran the Triangle in Denver. Rambo ran it in Minnesota a little. No extremely talented team has truly committed to it the way Jackson/Tex teams have with the Lakers or Bulls.


Riddle me this: If you need an extremely talented team to succeed with the triangle, then why do you need the triangle? After all, you already have an extremely talented team, so you can run whatever you want.

The advantage of the Triangle is not it's Xs and Os
It's the fact that if you have a ball dominant superstar and or a post player it helps bridge the gap between the rest of the team and the star.

I never said the Triangle gives a team a great advantage I've argued that it can still work in today's NBA and if u had a Kobe or MJ you would still need the Tri or an offence like that to make it work because no way Kobe or MJ win rings as the man using spread pick and roll or playing off a point guard doing that

In theory Melo should have been able to thrive in the offense but he never bought in.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject:

The triangle is basically nullified by todays high octane offenses. I mean the Cavs made 25 3's yesterday...
You can make the argument that the game slows down the playoffs...
Ok, but nobody has used the system to win a championship since the Lakers last did it.
So you are putting all this effort into learning a system which is different from todays offenses but which might not work in todays game.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject:

I have no doubt that the triangle could be adapted to work in the current NBA. As Wolf indicates, the triangle is a flexible system. I agree. However, I find ithe idea that it is some sort of talismanic system to be spurious. If it does not provide some sort of overriding advantage, what is the point of forcing it on a group of players who are not familiar with it, with a coach who is not a disciple of the system?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject:

No Tex, No success.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
No Tex, No success.
Tex is the true Yoda.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
No Tex, No success.

Speaking of Tex Winter, he turned 95 a week ago.
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