FINALLY... Phil Jackson accepts some blame.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:37 pm    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
the ship can only be turned around if our players are healthy. you are describing the team as if this is the same team we've had all year and are now starting to slip. this is not the case. the ship can not be righted with this current squad of active players...we will continue to lose. if we can get some of our guys healthy, then we can right it.


We were sliding before Lamar and Mihm got hurt. Now we're in a freefall. Injuries are a part of every season for every team. We're not just losing games. We're losing games BADLY. We're losing games badly because some guys on this team have quit playing both ends of the floor.


i guess i'm having a hard time seeing your point. you make it sound like we won't make the playoffs (the stated goal for the season), but then insist that you think we will...but say we're slipping away. what are your expectations for this team? injuries are part of basketball, but there are minor injuries and there are major injuries. the rockets experienced injury meltdown this year. thats not 'part of the game'. thats something that does not typically happen and cripples teams. thats whats happening to us now.


Again, sweetheart, you're reading stuff that simply isn't there. I never insisted that we'll make the playoffs. Neither have I said we won't make the playoffs.

All I've said repeatedly is that this team has some serious challenges that lie ahead because as a team, they are not playing well.

You want to know my expectations for this team??

I expect this team full of players drawing an NBA salary to play like they've picked up a basketball before. 48 games into the season, that's not happening. In fact, some guys are getting worse.

I expect guys to go out and work hard every possession, every game. That clearly is not happening. When you beat a team by 30 and then the very next night lose by 30 to a depleted roster, that's an effort issue. Again, effort issues should not exist 40+ games into the season.

I expect guys 48 games into the season to show at least a nominal progression of improvement. I've seen it in Chris Mihm, and to a lesser extent, Sasha. But Kwame? Luke? Smush? Effort and focus alone should at least make these guys stand pat, but they're not. They're regressing.

I expect that our star player shouldn't have to score 60 in order for our team to have a chance to win. And with him getting picked up 3 steps inside the halfcourt with doubles, I think 50 point games are a thing of the past at least for the time being until the scrubs earn some respect by making shots.

These are major concerns for me. I don't know if this team is going to the playoffs, but they're gonna have a hard time if they're not able to cure some of these problems.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject:

well babycakes, i would say its more of an issue of lack of talent than it is effort. missing open jumpers is not an effort problem...its a talent problem.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject:

laker4life wrote:
msb212 wrote:
I am so happy you are not our GM. You should go and root for the Knicks, who have followed your GM strategy to a T. As a result, they are awful, with zero hope to get better.

We have a clear strategy, which may not allow us to be championship contenders this year, but will put us there in the next 3.

It is pointless to continue


Championship Contenders??? Are you so sure about that? I guess that it depends on your definition of a championship contenders? Do you consider the Clippers and Cavs as 'contenders'?

If you classify the top two teams in the respective division as championship contenders, than I don't think that we will be there in the next three. (ie. Spurs, Suns, Pistons, Heat)

Yes, we have a plan but there are no guarantees that it will make us "championship contenders".


We are sticking to a clearly defined plan to give us capspace and flexibility to improve our roster substantially in 2007. I believe that there will be free agents or trades available at that time which will get us to the next level, as Kobe is in his prime and Bynum becomes worthy of a starting spot. By then, Lamar should have figured out the triangle, or we will trade him for an impact player. So yes, I think the future is bright, despite the recent disastrous results. But I do not grade the Lakers game by game. I understand, as does Laker management, that give the restrictions of the CBA and the current roster, there is not much we can do right now, and it is not worth losing an opportunity to make drastic improvement in 2007 so we can win 5 more games this year.

And to those who feel 2007 is pipe, EVERY SINGLE YEAR THERE IS A SUPERSTAR WHO DECIDES THEY WANT OUT. Having capsapce and flexibility puts us in a position to make a move, whatever that move may be. LeBron, KG, Bosh, or a couple of near all-stars may all be available. Who knows. But having the flexibility gives us a shot.
As to the rest of your post, I don;t really know what to make of it. I don't really care about the cavs or the clippers. There are no guarantees in sports. SO I don;t understand your point.


Last edited by msb212 on Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Socks
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:44 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
the ship can only be turned around if our players are healthy. you are describing the team as if this is the same team we've had all year and are now starting to slip. this is not the case. the ship can not be righted with this current squad of active players...we will continue to lose. if we can get some of our guys healthy, then we can right it.


We were sliding before Lamar and Mihm got hurt. Now we're in a freefall. Injuries are a part of every season for every team. We're not just losing games. We're losing games BADLY. We're losing games badly because some guys on this team have quit playing both ends of the floor.


i guess i'm having a hard time seeing your point. you make it sound like we won't make the playoffs (the stated goal for the season), but then insist that you think we will...but say we're slipping away. what are your expectations for this team? injuries are part of basketball, but there are minor injuries and there are major injuries. the rockets experienced injury meltdown this year. thats not 'part of the game'. thats something that does not typically happen and cripples teams. thats whats happening to us now.


Again, sweetheart, you're reading stuff that simply isn't there. I never insisted that we'll make the playoffs. Neither have I said we won't make the playoffs.

All I've said repeatedly is that this team has some serious challenges that lie ahead because as a team, they are not playing well.

You want to know my expectations for this team??

I expect this team full of players drawing an NBA salary to play like they've picked up a basketball before. 48 games into the season, that's not happening. In fact, some guys are getting worse.

I expect guys to go out and work hard every possession, every game. That clearly is not happening. When you beat a team by 30 and then the very next night lose by 30 to a depleted roster, that's an effort issue. Again, effort issues should not exist 40+ games into the season.

I expect guys 48 games into the season to show at least a nominal progression of improvement. I've seen it in Chris Mihm, and to a lesser extent, Sasha. But Kwame? Luke? Smush? Effort and focus alone should at least make these guys stand pat, but they're not. They're regressing.

I expect that our star player shouldn't have to score 60 in order for our team to have a chance to win. And with him getting picked up 3 steps inside the halfcourt with doubles, I think 50 point games are a thing of the past at least for the time being until the scrubs earn some respect by making shots.

These are major concerns for me. I don't know if this team is going to the playoffs, but they're gonna have a hard time if they're not able to cure some of these problems.


Not trying to be rude here, but I'm with Ocho in not really seeing your point. I think everyone would agree with the statements you just made. Yes, those things are all concerns, but really, pointing out concerns doesn't reach any conclusion. Are you saying those concerns are things the Lakers will overcome to reach the playoffs? Will they fail to overcome them? If so, why? To take it back to the heart of this thread - is Phil at fault if they don't get better here?
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:47 pm    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
well babycakes, i would say its more of an issue of lack of talent than it is effort. missing open jumpers is not an effort problem...its a talent problem.


Well here's another question, do you think this team is putting out the same effort defensively that they were the first part of the season? It's one thing to not have the talent to make a wide open jumpshot (sounds ridiculous to even say that in regards to an NBA player), but defense is at least 75% effort.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:52 pm    Post subject:

Socks wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
the ship can only be turned around if our players are healthy. you are describing the team as if this is the same team we've had all year and are now starting to slip. this is not the case. the ship can not be righted with this current squad of active players...we will continue to lose. if we can get some of our guys healthy, then we can right it.


We were sliding before Lamar and Mihm got hurt. Now we're in a freefall. Injuries are a part of every season for every team. We're not just losing games. We're losing games BADLY. We're losing games badly because some guys on this team have quit playing both ends of the floor.


i guess i'm having a hard time seeing your point. you make it sound like we won't make the playoffs (the stated goal for the season), but then insist that you think we will...but say we're slipping away. what are your expectations for this team? injuries are part of basketball, but there are minor injuries and there are major injuries. the rockets experienced injury meltdown this year. thats not 'part of the game'. thats something that does not typically happen and cripples teams. thats whats happening to us now.


Again, sweetheart, you're reading stuff that simply isn't there. I never insisted that we'll make the playoffs. Neither have I said we won't make the playoffs.

All I've said repeatedly is that this team has some serious challenges that lie ahead because as a team, they are not playing well.

You want to know my expectations for this team??

I expect this team full of players drawing an NBA salary to play like they've picked up a basketball before. 48 games into the season, that's not happening. In fact, some guys are getting worse.

I expect guys to go out and work hard every possession, every game. That clearly is not happening. When you beat a team by 30 and then the very next night lose by 30 to a depleted roster, that's an effort issue. Again, effort issues should not exist 40+ games into the season.

I expect guys 48 games into the season to show at least a nominal progression of improvement. I've seen it in Chris Mihm, and to a lesser extent, Sasha. But Kwame? Luke? Smush? Effort and focus alone should at least make these guys stand pat, but they're not. They're regressing.

I expect that our star player shouldn't have to score 60 in order for our team to have a chance to win. And with him getting picked up 3 steps inside the halfcourt with doubles, I think 50 point games are a thing of the past at least for the time being until the scrubs earn some respect by making shots.

These are major concerns for me. I don't know if this team is going to the playoffs, but they're gonna have a hard time if they're not able to cure some of these problems.


Not trying to be rude here, but I'm with Ocho in not really seeing your point. I think everyone would agree with the statements you just made. Yes, those things are all concerns, but really, pointing out concerns doesn't reach any conclusion. Are you saying those concerns are things the Lakers will overcome to reach the playoffs? Will they fail to overcome them? If so, why? To take it back to the heart of this thread - is Phil at fault if they don't get better here?


You're not being rude at all. A little contradictory, but certainly not rude. If you think everyone would agree with my statements, how do you not get my point??

And the reason why I didn't draw a conclusion is because, quite frankly, I don't know what's gonna happen. I've said that about a half dozen times already.

And this is a message board. People point out concerns all day everyday. That's kinda what we do here.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
msb212 wrote:
I am so happy you are not our GM.


I agree with that much.

Quote:
You should go and root for the Knicks, who have followed your GM strategy to a T. As a result, they are awful, with zero hope to get better.


The Knicks are awful because Isiah has a terrible feel for how to put players together, is happy to take on awful contracts, and is trigger happy for bad trades.

I don't know if that is any better than a GM who has no feel for how to put a team together, no eye for talent, won't take on any contracts and won't make any trades.

I mean if you put Kobe on the Knicks with that roster they have right now and Brown as coach, they'd probably be vying for a top seed in the East. Despite Isiah's stupidity and Brown's ineptitude at coaching this season, they still have more talent than the Lakers outside of Kobe (oh, and what the hell, Lamar). I don't know--I mean if you had to pick between Curry, Marbury, Q, Crawford, Frye, Jalen, Robinson and Arizia or Mihm, Odom, Walton, Kwame, Sasha, Smush, Cook and George, do you go with Mitch or Isiah?

Quote:
We have a clear strategy, which may not allow us to be championship contenders this year, but will put us there in the next 3.


What exactly is that strategy? Pray and hope?


we were not discussing putting kobe on the knicks. I was disagreeing with the original posters comments about what the lakers should do today. which clearly would not work in any way shape or form.

as to our strategy, see my post above.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
da ocho wrote:
well babycakes, i would say its more of an issue of lack of talent than it is effort. missing open jumpers is not an effort problem...its a talent problem.


Well here's another question, do you think this team is putting out the same effort defensively that they were the first part of the season? It's one thing to not have the talent to make a wide open jumpshot (sounds ridiculous to even say that in regards to an NBA player), but defense is at least 75% effort.


i think other teams are learning the holes in out D and exploiting them and thus finding it easier to score lately. they're also attacking a depleted team. losing chris mihm really hurts the team since he is the last line of defense. losing odom hurt our rebounding and man defense. because kobe has to exert himself so much on offense to keep us in games, his defense suffers. it seems like the little guards are hurting us the most, and the slashers. they are able to operate easier without mihm....and the absent mindedness of kwame brown.

in short...our defense isn't as impressive as it looked in the beginning season. but young teams, with very limited talent, with inexperience, learning a new system, playing on the road, and with six players injured cannot be expected to play consistent basketball.

i'm still not sure what your point is. you state that we're bad and slipping. is that it? do you have a solution or a suggestion? do you understand the reasons for this slide?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:08 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:

You're not being rude at all. A little contradictory, but certainly not rude. If you think everyone would agree with my statements, how do you not get my point??

And the reason why I didn't draw a conclusion is because, quite frankly, I don't know what's gonna happen. I've said that about a half dozen times already.

And this is a message board. People point out concerns all day everyday. That's kinda what we do here.


So if I understand clearly you're saying your point is our team is not putting out a strong enough effort and we suck? OK, cool, I thought you were going further with that statement, but if not...I agree, but also agree with Ocho that the expectation is a bit too high given all the things wrong with this team right now. There are too many other factors like health, general talent level, and inexperience to make a pure black and white statement that it's just because the team doesn't try hard.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:10 pm    Post subject:

Socks wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:

You're not being rude at all. A little contradictory, but certainly not rude. If you think everyone would agree with my statements, how do you not get my point??

And the reason why I didn't draw a conclusion is because, quite frankly, I don't know what's gonna happen. I've said that about a half dozen times already.

And this is a message board. People point out concerns all day everyday. That's kinda what we do here.


So if I understand clearly you're saying your point is our team is not putting out a strong enough effort and we suck? OK, cool, I thought you were going further with that statement, but if not...I agree, but also agree with Ocho that the expectation is a bit too high given all the things wrong with this team right now. There are too many other factors like health, general talent level, and inexperience to make a pure black and white statement that it's just because the team doesn't try hard.


because its so much easier to just say we're not playing hard than it is to admit that the roster sucks.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject:

msb212 wrote:
I am so happy you are not our GM. You should go and root for the Knicks, who have followed your GM strategy to a T. As a result, they are awful, with zero hope to get better.

We have a clear strategy, which may not allow us to be championship contenders this year, but will put us there in the next 3.

It is pointless to continue


Right.

On.

Point.

To the people who are so incredibly impatient about the progress of the team, you really might want to consider rooting for someone else or just hopping off the bandwagon for a year or two. You gotta realize that there are no quick fixes with this team, and in the NBA, more times than not, quick fix attempts go wrong and end up doing long-term damage to your team. It is not worth risking championship glory 3 years from now just to be moderately better now, and I'm glad that Laker management knows that.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: FINALLY... Phil Jackson accepts some blame.

iml84myd8s wrote:

Phil Jackson is responsible for getting these players to be better basketball players and to make this team a championship contender. Neither is happening. It's time for Phil Jackson to accept responsibility for this.


If you don't see improvement in Chris Mihm, Sasha Vujacic, Lamar Odom (in same facets) and Kobe Bryant this year you simply aren't paying attention. How does Smush Parker look this year compared to years past?

Of course the Lakers aren't looking like a contender right now. If you said you expected the Lakers to be a contender this year during the preseason you'd have been laughed at.

You were spoiled by the bit of success the Lakers had earlier this year. The 5-1 trip, the win over Miami, the recent 8-2 run that ended in New York -- now defenses have adjusted and the Lakers are still trying to counter.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject:

msb212 wrote:
I am so happy you are not our GM. You should go and root for the Knicks, who have followed your GM strategy to a T. As a result, they are awful, with zero hope to get better.

We have a clear strategy, which may not allow us to be championship contenders this year, but will put us there in the next 3.

It is pointless to continue


That's a great plan. Wait 3 more years to become a championship contender.

Let's see...

Phil will be pushing 70 years of age and he's current contract will have expired. Kobe will be 30 years of age, coming closer to the downside of his career and a couple of years away from free agency.

Oh, I almost forgot, Bynum should be ready to become the next great Lakers center.

That sounds like a plan for success. Just wait 3 more years and all will be right again in La-La land!!!

You're right. Laker fans should sit patiently for 3 more years so the Lakers can stay under the luxury tax, sign some free agents to put around a 30 year old Kobe Bryant and Jackson’s replacement can coach them to the next NBA championship. Why didn’t I think of this?!?!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject:

iml84myd8s wrote:
msb212 wrote:
I am so happy you are not our GM. You should go and root for the Knicks, who have followed your GM strategy to a T. As a result, they are awful, with zero hope to get better.

We have a clear strategy, which may not allow us to be championship contenders this year, but will put us there in the next 3.

It is pointless to continue


That's a great plan. Wait 3 more years to become a championship contender.

Let's see...

Phil will be pushing 70 years of age and he's current contract will have expired. Kobe will be 30 years of age, coming closer to the downside of his career and a couple of years away from free agency.

Oh, I almost forgot, Bynum should be ready to become the next great Lakers center.

That sounds like a plan for success. Just wait 3 more years and all will be right again in La-La land!!!

You're right. Laker fans should sit patiently for 3 more years so the Lakers can stay under the luxury tax, sign some free agents to put around a 30 year old Kobe Bryant and Jackson’s replacement can coach them to the next NBA championship. Why didn’t I think of this?!?!


cause you obviously dont have a clue.

This isnt the Lakers problem. Its kobes. He signed up for the wrong project if he wanted to maximise his prime.
The lakers are looking to do whats best for the franchise. They are waiting for the best available players and the only time to get them is when they have cap space.
You cant trade TRASH for good players. It just isnt something you can expect to happen OR criticise someone for not doing.
If you think that spending money for overpaid players is the way to go... i dont know what to tell you.

Also, phil said he didnt expect this team to be much when he signed up. He said its a process and didnt expect great things from them until his 3rd year. Its a rebuilding project and it will take a few years.


Like i said to you a few days ago.. trashing phil and the lakers based on your original UNREALISTIC expectations is wrong and stupid.
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