Another death by officer in Falcon Heights, MN
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
jodeke
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 41290
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered intelligent.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:27 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".

You're totally discounting the girlfriends version of what happened?

Jake Brigance

Now imagine he was White!!!
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

Your prayers are always answered. Sometimes the answer is NO.


Last edited by jodeke on Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 39381
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".


And the girlfriend who witnessed the incident says the opposite. She says he was raising his arms when he was shot.

Can you give a logical explanation for why the victim, who explained that he had a permitted weapon, would allegedly then reach for said weapon while having a weapon pointed at him? Because to me that seems incredibly counter-intuitive. He clearly wanted to make sure the weapon was known and was not a threat. I see no reason that while an officer is threatening to shoot him and has a weapon on him, that the victim would think it was a wise idea to reach for his gun. Makes no sense. What does make sense is that a cop panicked and shot an innocent man and then made up the part about reaching for the weapon.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
Heís something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built thatís all for show goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell


Last edited by DaMuleRules on Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:43 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


That'd be false:

White men killed more American police than any other group this year, but conservatives won't address the facts


Actually, it's true, and I didn't cherry pick 17 deaths that occurred between January and May.

http://api.ning.com/files/ykZ*wTWqMzZPE7zHlk0o0ZNcmcEeNlu3*HMilj2PXF9MKrAFeqpFvzXo13egAaMlfAT9dAaZKAd30nRUo2kPJDcBuluO1ABs/racewhokillpolice.JPG
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/



Quote:
More white offenders than black offenders killed police between 1980 and 2013. Police officers were killed in ambush attacks by just as many black offenders as white offenders in the past three decades. There are no simple conclusions or trends that can be gleaned from the database alone, but it provides context that based on the raw numbers, officers are no more likely to be killed by black offenders than white offenders.


Yes, in raw numbers. Also, there are more white women in jail than black or hispanic women combined. In raw numbers. Raw numbers don't mean much.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".

You're totally discounting the girlfriends version of what happened?


No, I did not.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
jodeke
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 41290
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered intelligent.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".

You're totally discounting the girlfriends version of what happened?


No, I did not.

Do you believe her verison?
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

Your prayers are always answered. Sometimes the answer is NO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".


And the girlfriend who witnessed the incident says the opposite. She says he was raising his arms when he was shot.

Can you give a logical explanation for why the victim explained that he had a permitted weapon would allegedly then reach for said weapon while having a weapon pointed out at him? Because to me that seems incredibly counter-intuitive. He clearly wanted to make sure the weapon was known and was no a threat. I see no reason while an officer is threatening to shoot him and has a weapon on him the victim would think it was a wise idea to reach for his gun. Makes no sense. What does make sense is that a cop panicked and shot an innocent man and then made up the part about reaching for the weapon.


None of the possible scenarios that have formed in my head involve the victim doing anything "wrong". I don't believe he had any nefarious motives. He might not have even been going for the gun at all. Might have been for the registration (of vehicle or gun or both). I do believe that it's POSSIBLE he wasn't hearing the instructions that MAY have been given.

I also am NOT inclined to believe that the police officer is one of the great thespians of our time. He was clearly rattled from what had just happened. I don't assume (although it's possible) that he's such a cool customer that he already had the wits to both play hysterical AND concoct a purely fictional story.

I'm leaning toward tragic misunderstanding, but even if it's a tragic misunderstanding, that doesn't let everybody off the hook. There's still a lot to be learned from experiences that don't necessarily have a diabolically racist blood-thirsty villain abusing the innocent under the color of authority. With or without those elements, our institutions can be improved.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:10 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".

You're totally discounting the girlfriends version of what happened?


No, I did not.

Do you believe her verison?


The only version of hers I've heard is the one during the live stream. I am suspending all belief or disbelief until more is learned. There is almost always more.

I don't like to jump to conclusions. This one time, I was *outraged* that a white man fresh out of jail in Florida (still wearing his orange jumpsuit) had hunted down and shot a 12-year-old black kid in cold blood on his way home from playing Pop Warner football. Then the details... and things got more complicated.

And then sometimes it doesn't get more complicated. Like Eric Garner.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 39381
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".


And the girlfriend who witnessed the incident says the opposite. She says he was raising his arms when he was shot.

Can you give a logical explanation for why the victim explained that he had a permitted weapon would allegedly then reach for said weapon while having a weapon pointed out at him? Because to me that seems incredibly counter-intuitive. He clearly wanted to make sure the weapon was known and was no a threat. I see no reason while an officer is threatening to shoot him and has a weapon on him the victim would think it was a wise idea to reach for his gun. Makes no sense. What does make sense is that a cop panicked and shot an innocent man and then made up the part about reaching for the weapon.


None of the possible scenarios that have formed in my head involve the victim doing anything "wrong". I don't believe he had any nefarious motives. He might not have even been going for the gun at all. Might have been for the registration (of vehicle or gun or both). I do believe that it's POSSIBLE he wasn't hearing the instructions that MAY have been given.


So every possible scenario in your head puts the victim as responsible. All possibilities come down to him not complying for whatever reason, be it misunderstanding or whatever.

NO scenario involves the officer as responsible, whether it be panicking in a moment of stress, reacting to quickly to a movement that was actually someone RAISING their arms as opposed to reaching for something. it wasn't on the officer, but on the victim.

Now we have established where you are coming from. Cop couldn't have screwed up. Victim had to have. Got it.

Quote:
I also am NOT inclined to believe that the police officer is one of the great thespians of our time. He was clearly rattled from what had just happened.


I would imagine that killing someone is a pretty traumatic experience for probably 100% of the people who aren't psychopaths, regardless of their intent. We saw the same kind of shock and shakiness in the other shooting. The fact that he was shaken by the incident in NO way indicates he couldn't have reacted improperly or misjudged what was going, even if it was intentional.

Quote:
I don't assume (although it's possible) that he's such a cool customer that he already had the wits to both play hysterical AND concoct a purely fictional story.


But you DO assume that he couldn't be the one who made the errors, and that it has to be the victim whose actions lead to this death. You're cool with THAt assumption.

Quote:
I'm leaning toward tragic misunderstanding, but even if it's a tragic misunderstanding, that doesn't let everybody off the hook. There's still a lot to be learned from experiences that don't necessarily have a diabolically racist blood-thirsty villain abusing the innocent under the color of authority. With or without those elements, our institutions can be improved.


There may not be a diabolical element. But to discount so easily that race played a role in it is a bit harder to explain away. This was a stop over a fix it ticket. This wasn't a stop over a suspected violent felon with warrants. This is an employee at an elementary school who waS fully cooperative and made the officer fully aware of his permitted weapon. And yet for some reason this officer decided that innocuous stop over a broken taillight needed to be turned into an armed standoff. How many white guys has this officer shot in taillight stops? Hell how many white guys has he even pulled over for taillights? How many white jaywalkers has this officer held at bay with his weapon while he waited for ID? I'm guessing none. But then I don't assume that whatever happened must somehow be based on what the VICTIM did as opposed to the officer who was making a stop over a totally simple fix it ticket.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
Heís something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built thatís all for show goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Vancouver Fan
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 14020

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:17 pm    Post subject:

The police situation in America is crazy.
_________________
Music is my medicine
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
jodeke
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 41290
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered intelligent.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:20 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".

You're totally discounting the girlfriends version of what happened?


No, I did not.

Do you believe her verison?


The only version of hers I've heard is the one during the live stream. I am suspending all belief or disbelief until more is learned. There is almost always more.

I don't like to jump to conclusions. This one time, I was *outraged* that a white man fresh out of jail in Florida (still wearing his orange jumpsuit) had hunted down and shot a 12-year-old black kid in cold blood on his way home from playing Pop Warner football. Then the details... and things got more complicated.

And then sometimes it doesn't get more complicated. Like Eric Garner.


You wrote:

Quote:
Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

Reading that leads me to think you believe the cops version more than you do the girlfriend. The girlfriend said he was putting his hands up.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

Your prayers are always answered. Sometimes the answer is NO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lakersken80
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 27941

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:37 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
The girlfriend's demeanor on the video was very strange. She's extremely calm for having just had bullets fired into her vehicle with, with her daughter sitting in the backseat, and isn't even comforting her dying boyfriend next to her.


She had a gun pointed at her....I don't think that was a moment to be freaking out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".


And the girlfriend who witnessed the incident says the opposite. She says he was raising his arms when he was shot.

Can you give a logical explanation for why the victim explained that he had a permitted weapon would allegedly then reach for said weapon while having a weapon pointed out at him? Because to me that seems incredibly counter-intuitive. He clearly wanted to make sure the weapon was known and was no a threat. I see no reason while an officer is threatening to shoot him and has a weapon on him the victim would think it was a wise idea to reach for his gun. Makes no sense. What does make sense is that a cop panicked and shot an innocent man and then made up the part about reaching for the weapon.


None of the possible scenarios that have formed in my head involve the victim doing anything "wrong". I don't believe he had any nefarious motives. He might not have even been going for the gun at all. Might have been for the registration (of vehicle or gun or both). I do believe that it's POSSIBLE he wasn't hearing the instructions that MAY have been given.


So every possible scenario in your head puts the victim as responsible. All possibilities come down to him not complying for whatever reason, be it misunderstanding or whatever.

NO scenario involves the officer as responsible, whether it be panicking in a moment of stress, reacting to quickly to a movement that was actually someone RAISING their arms as opposed to reaching for something. it wasn't on the officer, but on the victim.

Now we have established where you are coming from. Cop couldn't have screwed up. Victim had to have. Got it.


I said no such thing. Why would you feel it necessary to purposely mischaracterize what I said. Are you so hard up for somebody to disagree with? I did not list every scenario (I don't even have a list of every scenario). But when I said that they were not off the hook, that was my way of acknowledging the responsibility of every official, whether it was an outright racist act or not, for improving these situations. I did say that the victim probably did nothing wrong. But because I said it's possible he may have not heard instructions that MAY have been given, you twist that to me blaming the victim. It's just one thing I said, man. One possibility.


Quote:
I also am NOT inclined to believe that the police officer is one of the great thespians of our time. He was clearly rattled from what had just happened.


I would imagine that killing someone is a pretty traumatic experience for probably 100% of the people who aren't psychopaths, regardless of their intent. We saw the same kind of shock and shakiness in the other shooting. The fact that he was shaken by the incident in NO way indicates he couldn't have reacted improperly or misjudged what was going, even if it was intentional.

Quote:
I don't assume (although it's possible) that he's such a cool customer that he already had the wits to both play hysterical AND concoct a purely fictional story.


But you DO assume...[/quote]

I assume nothing. Have given no reason for you believe that I do. An inclination or an impression is not an assumption.


Quote:
I'm leaning toward tragic misunderstanding, but even if it's a tragic misunderstanding, that doesn't let everybody off the hook. There's still a lot to be learned from experiences that don't necessarily have a diabolically racist blood-thirsty villain abusing the innocent under the color of authority. With or without those elements, our institutions can be improved.


There may not be a diabolical element. But to discount so easily that race played a role in it is a bit harder to explain away.[/quote]

Saying that it may not have been an outright racist act (as some have described it as an "execution") is not the same as saying that race plays no role. Race is always present. The racial element is one of the first things I acknowledged in this discussion. If Castile was white, it is more likely that he'd be alive. Statistically. Intuitively. Not 100%, but by a clear margin. All I've suggested is that there's a lot that contributes to that statistical reality that doesn't fall into the popular narrative of police deliberately executing black men out of hatred.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:52 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".

You're totally discounting the girlfriends version of what happened?


No, I did not.

Do you believe her verison?


The only version of hers I've heard is the one during the live stream. I am suspending all belief or disbelief until more is learned. There is almost always more.

I don't like to jump to conclusions. This one time, I was *outraged* that a white man fresh out of jail in Florida (still wearing his orange jumpsuit) had hunted down and shot a 12-year-old black kid in cold blood on his way home from playing Pop Warner football. Then the details... and things got more complicated.

And then sometimes it doesn't get more complicated. Like Eric Garner.


You wrote:

Quote:
Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

Reading that leads me to think you believe the cops version more than you do the girlfriend. The girlfriend said he was putting his hands up.


I am just not immediately DISbelieving the cop's version. If that gets me labeled a Nazi/Trumper/bigot/fascist meanie, so be it, but it wouldn't be accurate.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
vanexelent
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 May 2005
Posts: 27799

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


That'd be false:

White men killed more American police than any other group this year, but conservatives won't address the facts


Actually, it's true, and I didn't cherry pick 17 deaths that occurred between January and May.

http://api.ning.com/files/ykZ*wTWqMzZPE7zHlk0o0ZNcmcEeNlu3*HMilj2PXF9MKrAFeqpFvzXo13egAaMlfAT9dAaZKAd30nRUo2kPJDcBuluO1ABs/racewhokillpolice.JPG
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/



Quote:
More white offenders than black offenders killed police between 1980 and 2013. Police officers were killed in ambush attacks by just as many black offenders as white offenders in the past three decades. There are no simple conclusions or trends that can be gleaned from the database alone, but it provides context that based on the raw numbers, officers are no more likely to be killed by black offenders than white offenders.


Yes, in raw numbers. Also, there are more white women in jail than black or hispanic women combined. In raw numbers. Raw numbers don't mean much.



What percentages are you referring to then? Your first link was an error 404, the Washington Post link is where I grabbed that quote from. It said whites were more likely to kill a cop 52% to 43% black.

If that's the case, then your "assumption" about what the cop was thinking was inaccurate.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 39381
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
So every possible scenario in your head puts the victim as responsible. All possibilities come down to him not complying for whatever reason, be it misunderstanding or whatever.

NO scenario involves the officer as responsible, whether it be panicking in a moment of stress, reacting to quickly to a movement that was actually someone RAISING their arms as opposed to reaching for something. it wasn't on the officer, but on the victim.

Now we have established where you are coming from. Cop couldn't have screwed up. Victim had to have. Got it.


I said no such thing. Why would you feel it necessary to purposely mischaracterize what I said. Are you so hard up for somebody to disagree with?


First of all, let me just say that I am cutting this down to make it more legible and cut down on the ugly quote tree - NOT to remove any context.

That out of the way, I am not mischaracterizing anything. You dismiss the idea that the officer is incorrect about what the victim was doing (and what the witness said he was doing) and assume that it was the victims actions which are what caused the shooting, not that the officer didn't shoot despite the victim complying with the officers directive. The scenarios you listed all involved the victim doing something OTHER than what he was ordered to do despite the girlfriend saying he WAS complying.

Quote:
I did not list every scenario (I don't even have a list of every scenario). But when I said that they were not off the hook, that was my way of acknowledging the responsibility of every official, whether it was an outright racist act or not, for improving these situations. I did say that the victim probably did nothing wrong. But because I said it's possible he may have not heard instructions that MAY have been given, you twist that to me blaming the victim. It's just one thing I said, man. One possibility.


While ignoring that the witness says he did what he was ordered to do. You didn't even suggest the possibility that the officer fired DESPITE the fact that the victim was apparently following directives.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I also am NOT inclined to believe that the police officer is one of the great thespians of our time. He was clearly rattled from what had just happened.


I would imagine that killing someone is a pretty traumatic experience for probably 100% of the people who aren't psychopaths, regardless of their intent. We saw the same kind of shock and shakiness in the other shooting. The fact that he was shaken by the incident in NO way indicates he couldn't have reacted improperly or misjudged what was going, even if it was intentional.

Quote:
I don't assume (although it's possible) that he's such a cool customer that he already had the wits to both play hysterical AND concoct a purely fictional story.


But you DO assume...


I assume nothing. Have given no reason for you believe that I do. An inclination or an impression is not an assumption.


You clearly assume that because he was apparently shaken by the killing, he couldn't be guilty of entering into it maliciously (and yes, treating a routine traffic stop differently because it is a black man driving IS a malicious act).


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm leaning toward tragic misunderstanding, but even if it's a tragic misunderstanding, that doesn't let everybody off the hook. There's still a lot to be learned from experiences that don't necessarily have a diabolically racist blood-thirsty villain abusing the innocent under the color of authority. With or without those elements, our institutions can be improved.


There may not be a diabolical element. But to discount so easily that race played a role in it is a bit harder to explain away.


Saying that it may not have been an outright racist act (as some have described it as an "execution") is not the same as saying that race plays no role. Race is always present. The racial element is one of the first things I acknowledged in this discussion. If Castile was white, it is more likely that he'd be alive. Statistically. Intuitively. Not 100%, but by a clear margin. All I've suggested is that there's a lot that contributes to that statistical reality that doesn't fall into the popular narrative of police deliberately executing black men out of hatred.


Fair enough. But there is a danger in dismissing a man's death as a "tragic misunderstanding" when race CLEARLY played a role in what transpired. White men do not get killed by police officers over taillight infractions. And certainly not white men with no criminal record who are complying with what the officer is demanding and make it clear they are armed and mean no trouble.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
Heís something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built thatís all for show goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell


Last edited by DaMuleRules on Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ContagiousInspiration
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 3223

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:13 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
The girlfriend's demeanor on the video was very strange. She's extremely calm for having just had bullets fired into her vehicle with, with her daughter sitting in the backseat, and isn't even comforting her dying boyfriend next to her.


She had a gun pointed at her....I don't think that was a moment to be freaking out.



Remaining calm probably shocked the officer.. never know what might have happened had she freaked out on the cop ... bam bam.. what cell phone?
_________________
Nobody knew Health Care could be so complicated.. Thank you Obama
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlOo1QNmHAI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
jodeke
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 41290
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered intelligent.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:16 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
jodeke wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Right, so why do you think they were of the impression their lives were in risk more over this particular traffic stop?


Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

I'm not declaring this shooting justified or not. Just that there are other explanations (even in an unjustified shooting) than racism, execution, murder, etc. "Explanation" does not equal "excuse".

You're totally discounting the girlfriends version of what happened?


No, I did not.

Do you believe her verison?


The only version of hers I've heard is the one during the live stream. I am suspending all belief or disbelief until more is learned. There is almost always more.

I don't like to jump to conclusions. This one time, I was *outraged* that a white man fresh out of jail in Florida (still wearing his orange jumpsuit) had hunted down and shot a 12-year-old black kid in cold blood on his way home from playing Pop Warner football. Then the details... and things got more complicated.

And then sometimes it doesn't get more complicated. Like Eric Garner.


You wrote:

Quote:
Over this particular one? Oh, maybe because he was reaching for his weapon when the officer told him not to? I don't know that that is exactly what happened, but it's what the cop was hysterically rattling on about at the beginning of that video.

Reading that leads me to think you believe the cops version more than you do the girlfriend. The girlfriend said he was putting his hands up.


I am just not immediately DISbelieving the cop's version. If that gets me labeled a Nazi/Trumper/bigot/fascist meanie, so be it, but it wouldn't be accurate.

I try not to label. I interpret your post and draw conclusions. I conclude you believe the police officer, not the girlfriend.

IMO a logical person would conclude, if a cop had a gun pointed at your head the person who's head was about to be blown off would comply to demands.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

Your prayers are always answered. Sometimes the answer is NO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
hoopschick29
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 12337
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:16 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
The girlfriend's demeanor on the video was very strange. She's extremely calm for having just had bullets fired into her vehicle with, with her daughter sitting in the backseat, and isn't even comforting her dying boyfriend next to her.


She had a gun pointed at her....I don't think that was a moment to be freaking out.



Remaining calm probably shocked the officer.. never know what might have happened had she freaked out on the cop ... bam bam.. what cell phone?


If she had freaked out, she'd be dead too. Staged crime scene, here we come.
_________________
Nicolas Caldwell (The Whispers) 1944-2016
Natalie Cole 1950-2016
David Bowie 1947-2016
Glenn Frey 1948-2016
Maurice White 1941-2016
Malik Isaac Taylor aka Phife 1970-2016
Prince 1958-2016
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Huey Lewis & The News
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Posts: 2700
Location: So what's the uh...topic of discussion?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
The girlfriend's demeanor on the video was very strange. She's extremely calm for having just had bullets fired into her vehicle with, with her daughter sitting in the backseat, and isn't even comforting her dying boyfriend next to her.


She had a gun pointed at her....I don't think that was a moment to be freaking out.



Remaining calm probably shocked the officer.. never know what might have happened had she freaked out on the cop ... bam bam.. what cell phone?


If she had freaked out, she'd be dead too. Staged crime scene, here we come.


Yup. Listen to the cop's emotional state. She might have saved her own life.
_________________
"All wars are civil wars, because all men are brothers."
http://forums.lakersground.net/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=13018
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aussiesuede
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 9724

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject:

MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


If such a thought were weighing heavily on the cops, then they would have weighed the risk to benefit ratio of pulling a black male over for a broken tail light. What person weighing such risks would think pulling over someone for a broken tail light was worth getting killed over?


So black motorists shouldn't get pulled over for a broken tail light? Only everybody else? The police still have a job to do, and it's not like there aren't many other situations between them and black motorists that occur without incident. If it gets to where they're doing a "risk to benefit ratio" of carrying out the duties of their job, then we might agree that they should quit.


Nobody should be pulled over for a broken tail light. We have technology today that didn't exists years ago. A busted taillight is an infraction. A fix it ticket. All an officer should be doing is making a note on the dashcam recording and forwarding the evidence to the Dept of licensing to issue a "fix-it" summons to the vehicles registered owner directing them to provision proof of the light defect being corrected. In the final analysis, it's basically an adminisitrative function and neither a citizens, nor officers lif should ever even have the opportunity to be put ar risk over something so silly.

Unfortunately many officers like things like broken taillights because it gives them cover to pull over someone they desire to investigate furthur but can't find any legal reason to harass said individual. More lives are lost for not wearing a seat belt than are lost because of a broken tailight, yet you can be pulled over for a busted taillight yet not for failure to wear a seatbelt. In most jurisdictions, seatbelt infractions are secondary offense which require another reason for being pulled over before the seatbelt ticket can be issued. Broken tailights would be more efficiently, and effectively, handled via a mail citation, similar to the ones you recieve for misuse of the HOV Toll Roads.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 39381
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:06 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
The girlfriend's demeanor on the video was very strange. She's extremely calm for having just had bullets fired into her vehicle with, with her daughter sitting in the backseat, and isn't even comforting her dying boyfriend next to her.


She had a gun pointed at her....I don't think that was a moment to be freaking out.



Remaining calm probably shocked the officer.. never know what might have happened had she freaked out on the cop ... bam bam.. what cell phone?


If she had freaked out, she'd be dead too. Staged crime scene, here we come.


Yep. Cellphone in hand = possible gun. A cop doesn't even have to stage it.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
Heís something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built thatís all for show goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:13 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
They're trigger fingers are twitching. I know the job of a cop is stressful but damn, some of this aggression, especially at black folks, is highly unnecessary.


You see it as aggression, I see it as nerves in a tense situation. Even a law-abiding black male would be understandably nervous about interacting with the police, knowing past and recent history and the disproportionate number of deaths of black men by police. But the officer also is aware that he is statistically disproportionately more at risk when interacting with a black male.

So you have two people who are surely aware of statistics and the news, and nervous as a result of the actions of other pairs of people in similar situations - some of THOSE people racist, or criminal, or violent, or aggressive, or incompetent, etc. Sometimes, nobody was setting out to do anything racist, and yet race plays a role.


That'd be false:

White men killed more American police than any other group this year, but conservatives won't address the facts


Actually, it's true, and I didn't cherry pick 17 deaths that occurred between January and May.

http://api.ning.com/files/ykZ*wTWqMzZPE7zHlk0o0ZNcmcEeNlu3*HMilj2PXF9MKrAFeqpFvzXo13egAaMlfAT9dAaZKAd30nRUo2kPJDcBuluO1ABs/racewhokillpolice.JPG
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/01/09/are-black-or-white-offenders-more-likely-to-kill-police/



Quote:
More white offenders than black offenders killed police between 1980 and 2013. Police officers were killed in ambush attacks by just as many black offenders as white offenders in the past three decades. There are no simple conclusions or trends that can be gleaned from the database alone, but it provides context that based on the raw numbers, officers are no more likely to be killed by black offenders than white offenders.


Yes, in raw numbers. Also, there are more white women in jail than black or hispanic women combined. In raw numbers. Raw numbers don't mean much.



What percentages are you referring to then? Your first link was an error 404, the Washington Post link is where I grabbed that quote from. It said whites were more likely to kill a cop 52% to 43% black.


13% of the population accounts for 43% of law enforcement felonious killings. In the example I gave, the total number of white females in prison is higher than the combined total of black females and hispanic females, but the inequity is evident when one considers the disparity in population. Per capita, black females are about twice as likely to be imprisoned than white females, and hispanic females slightly more likely than white females.

With regard to police killings, although more occur at the hands of white offenders, per capita black offenders/suspects/whatever are a more likely threat, statistically. This is not something that necessarily should be factored in to an officer's duties, but it's probably difficult information to discard altogether when it comes to the desire for self-preservation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 39381
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:16 pm    Post subject:

Aussiesuede wrote:

Nobody should be pulled over for a broken tail light.


And they aren't . . . unless they are a minority.

I've driven around subject to several possible fix it tickets from taillights, missing reg tags, broken windshields, missing bumpers. The only time this white guy was pulled over for a fix it infraction was late at night when I was a teenager driving a car in Beverly Hills and it was obvious the cop was clearly trying to catch me either driving without a license or on possession. It was purely a fishing expedition. They didn't care about the taillight. No cop gives a (bleep) about a taillight. It's just an excuse too force a confrontation.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
Heís something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built thatís all for show goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MickMgl
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1471

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:47 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
MickMgl wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
So every possible scenario in your head puts the victim as responsible. All possibilities come down to him not complying for whatever reason, be it misunderstanding or whatever.

NO scenario involves the officer as responsible, whether it be panicking in a moment of stress, reacting to quickly to a movement that was actually someone RAISING their arms as opposed to reaching for something. it wasn't on the officer, but on the victim.

Now we have established where you are coming from. Cop couldn't have screwed up. Victim had to have. Got it.


I said no such thing. Why would you feel it necessary to purposely mischaracterize what I said. Are you so hard up for somebody to disagree with?


First of all, let me just say that I am cutting this down to make it more legible and cut down on the ugly quote tree - NOT to remove any context.

That out of the way, I am not mischaracterizing anything. You dismiss the idea that the officer is incorrect about what the victim was doing (and what the witness said he was doing) and assume that it was the victims actions which are what caused the shooting, not that the officer didn't shoot despite the victim complying with the officers directive. The scenarios you listed all involved the victim doing something OTHER than what he was ordered to do despite the girlfriend saying he WAS complying.


OK, well, not dismissing it at all. That's entirely possible. I didn't run through all the possibilities, and that should not be taken to assume that I dismiss anything not mentioned. When I say "tragic misunderstanding" (which I'm just LEANING toward) that should imply at least as much responsibility on the officer as on the victim.

And even putting the words "responsibility" and "victim" in the same sentence does not imply that there was fault in his behavior, or that he had it coming, or that he acted in any way outside of what most normal people would do, but only that we can always (the living, anyway) look back on a situation (a moment, really) and look at things that could have been done differently, even if it's nothing more than zigging instead of zagging. I recommend this merely as the best method to learn from an experience, not as a verdict on this incident.



Quote:
I did not list every scenario (I don't even have a list of every scenario). But when I said that they were not off the hook, that was my way of acknowledging the responsibility of every official, whether it was an outright racist act or not, for improving these situations. I did say that the victim probably did nothing wrong. But because I said it's possible he may have not heard instructions that MAY have been given, you twist that to me blaming the victim. It's just one thing I said, man. One possibility.


Quote:

While ignoring that the witness says he did what he was ordered to do. You didn't even suggest the possibility that the officer fired DESPITE the fact that the victim was apparently following directives.


I have heard that he had dropped his wallet and was reaching for it. That may be incorrect. I don't know. It doesn't seem to conflict with the officer's claim that he told him not to reach for it, to get his head up. But hey, I haven't heard everybody's full testimony.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I also am NOT inclined to believe that the police officer is one of the great thespians of our time. He was clearly rattled from what had just happened.


I would imagine that killing someone is a pretty traumatic experience for probably 100% of the people who aren't psychopaths, regardless of their intent. We saw the same kind of shock and shakiness in the other shooting. The fact that he was shaken by the incident in NO way indicates he couldn't have reacted improperly or misjudged what was going, even if it was intentional.

Quote:
I don't assume (although it's possible) that he's such a cool customer that he already had the wits to both play hysterical AND concoct a purely fictional story.


But you DO assume...


I assume nothing. Have given no reason for you believe that I do. An inclination or an impression is not an assumption.


You clearly assume that because he was apparently shaken by the killing, he couldn't be guilty of entering into it maliciously (and yes, treating a routine traffic stop differently because it is a black man driving IS a malicious act).[/quote]

That is not at all what I said. I only said that he seemed shaken and I do not assume that he was acting. I have never said "couldn't" about anything here, because I don't know what happened. (I assume that you don't, either. Yes, I assume that.)

We don't know at what point it stopped being a routine traffic stop. Something malicious is "intentionally harmful". If they were pulled over just to (bleep) with them, then that was malicious. I'm not sure that taking extra caution with some stops is necessarily malicious. I mean it as I said it. I am not sure how I feel about that.


Last edited by MickMgl on Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 3 of 6
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2010 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB