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Omar Little
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 Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| MickMgl wrote: | | Wino wrote: | You guys know that if Buss stepped down after next year, whoever took over would need a few extra years to install his system and get the kind of players he wanted.
Come on guys, could you imagine Phil inheriting this team, with all it's youngsters??
He would NOT know what to do with them, other than trade them all and start over.
Dump Jim if he has a major setback. At this point, he is likely the shortest route to the promised land.
Bringing in someone new to run basketball operations would require a complete reboot.
That would be awful! |
Or promote Mitch. Or West. Or Walton. Or bring in Kobe. The point is, it doesn't have to be Phil. |
Not that that changes anything. None of them are owners. Someone from ownership has to have final call.
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MickMgl
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Joined: 07 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Shlumpledink wrote: | | MickMgl wrote: |
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I remember a long time ago Buss was getting railed for wanting Andrew Bynum in the draft, and he turned out to be a good one for us. |
A lottery pick out of the league at 26? That's a good pick?
"Think of how good he'll be in ten years." Yeah, he was out of the league in seven. Then again, next year will mark ten years from when Mitch said that, so maybe he's like wine and ready to be pulled off the rack and dusted off.
And don't give me that "freak injuries" crap, because his high school career was riddled with injuries and surgeries. |
When you consider at the time a lot of fans wanted Sean May or Gerald Green with that pick it turned out much better than expected. Would Sean May or Gerald Green have helped us win a championship and make us a better team than Bynum did? Would we have been able to trade either of them for Dwight Howard and others? |
Again, why would we want to trade them for Howard, when it was clear he didn't want to play here? It didn't have to be any of those players. There were other players available who would have helped. My objection at the time was based on investing in a multi-year project when you have the key player already in place who just needs players with a high floor more than a high ceiling. (Granger, Lee, Gortat, Jack) They drafted for the ceiling - did get a glimpse of it - but the fragility and injuries continued.
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The point is that Bynum's selection was controversial at the time, but it aided the Lakers. Especially when you consider what the alternatives were. Bynum playing into his 30's doesn't matter if it isn't with the Lakers. We got a lot out of him, some from his play and some from his value in a trade, and that is what makes a draft pick really successful. |
They got ONE year of Dwight Howard for his trade value, plus the privilege of sending away a couple of draft picks. If they had traded him for Pau and kept Marc, then I think you could say we got a lot out of his trade value. |
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MickMgl
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Joined: 07 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | MickMgl wrote: | | Wino wrote: | You guys know that if Buss stepped down after next year, whoever took over would need a few extra years to install his system and get the kind of players he wanted.
Come on guys, could you imagine Phil inheriting this team, with all it's youngsters??
He would NOT know what to do with them, other than trade them all and start over.
Dump Jim if he has a major setback. At this point, he is likely the shortest route to the promised land.
Bringing in someone new to run basketball operations would require a complete reboot.
That would be awful! |
Or promote Mitch. Or West. Or Walton. Or bring in Kobe. The point is, it doesn't have to be Phil. |
Not that that changes anything. None of them are owners. Someone from ownership has to have final call. |
Jerry West was not an owner. That is the position Jim is holding. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Correct, Jerry was not an owner and as such, he wasn't the last word on decisions, Dr. Buss was. And now Mitch is not the last word on decisions, Jim is as an owner. Nothing has changed except the names.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| LakersRGolden wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | | Zhengi wrote: | | LakersRGolden wrote: | | Runway8 wrote: | | rak617 wrote: | I understand about players selection but coaches selection is pretty questionable.
Mike Brown? MDA over Phil? Scott? That's pathetic display |
Mike Brown coach of the year in Cleveland, although that's probably more of a testament to Lebron. And obviously he has some value because the Warriors just hired him. MDA over Phil, there is debate about whose call that was, and we can debate that for eternity. Lastly, I think Laker fans, especially Kobe fans, can't have it both ways. Who else was going to babysit Kobe for the FWT? Any other coach, who wanted to win games, would have benched Kobe. He was as finished as Kevin Garnett, but there was a stark difference on how each of them wanted to go out. Kobe didn't seem like the 10 minutes a game guy/cheerleader. |
Not to mention there's no proof Phil would have even said yes. He hasn't coached a game since then. |
The argument isn't if Phil would have said yes or no. He might have decided not to coach at all. The argument is the front office should have given him time to make a decision. This would have nipped so much of the controversy we see today. |
I have been making the same argument.
Offer him the job and let's see what happens.
Personally, I think that he would have taken the job.
Like Kobe said, it would be nice to give Phil an opportunity to go out a winner. |
Phil mailed it in his last year with us. Without Tex, his rehiring would have been well below most fan's expectations. The results would mirror MDA's very closely. |
Sorry I have to disagree with that conclusion.
No way the results would "mirror" MDA.
No way Phil would play Kobe the amount of minutes that MDA did.
No way Phil would misuse Gasol like MDA did.
Also, I think that Howard would have been more productive with Phil as the coach.
Phil is regarded as a better coach than MDA and has won championships to prove it.
No way would the results mirror MDA.
As we saw with Scott the last two years, coaching makes a difference. Phil would make a difference. |
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chekmatex4
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Mitch has just as much of the blame as Jim does unless Mitch provided advice that Jim ignored. It doesn't make sense to assign all the bad things that happened to Jim and all the good things to Mitch when they were both working together. Mitch did a great job before the passing of Dr. Buss but it's time for a change. I would love if the Lakers were able to bring Neil Olshey or Jerry West to serve as general manager. I would even bring some new guys from the Spurs (Pauga), Warriors (Schlenk), or Thunder (Weaver) for a fresh perspective. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| chekmatex4 wrote: | | Mitch has just as much of the blame as Jim does unless Mitch provided advice that Jim ignored. It doesn't make sense to assign all the bad things that happened to Jim and all the good things to Mitch when they were both working together. Mitch did a great job before the passing of Dr. Buss but it's time for a change. I would love if the Lakers were able to bring Neil Olshey or Jerry West to serve as general manager. I would even bring some new guys from the Spurs (Pauga), Warriors (Schlenk), or Thunder (Weaver) for a fresh perspective. |
Jerry is obviously a brilliant basketball mind and valuable asset to any franchise, but I wonder if you realize that he took over a 23 win team, peaked at 50 wins (multiple first round exits) and left it a 22 win team.
Maybe Mitch has earned the right to go through an entire rebuild process before being judged a failure? |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Jerry West is also 78 and is a part owner of GS.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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clutchkobe
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | MickMgl wrote: | | Wino wrote: | You guys know that if Buss stepped down after next year, whoever took over would need a few extra years to install his system and get the kind of players he wanted.
Come on guys, could you imagine Phil inheriting this team, with all it's youngsters??
He would NOT know what to do with them, other than trade them all and start over.
Dump Jim if he has a major setback. At this point, he is likely the shortest route to the promised land.
Bringing in someone new to run basketball operations would require a complete reboot.
That would be awful! |
Or promote Mitch. Or West. Or Walton. Or bring in Kobe. The point is, it doesn't have to be Phil. |
Not that that changes anything. None of them are owners. Someone from ownership has to have final call. |
as owner....he cant set the plan. he has never played the game of basketball....ever. he is the owner and has to rely on someone who can set up a plan and set the plan in motion. Mitch has shown he cant say no to jim buss or stand for what he believes in so mitch needs to go. We need someone who is strong and has confidence in what he is doing. |
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chekmatex4
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | Mitch has just as much of the blame as Jim does unless Mitch provided advice that Jim ignored. It doesn't make sense to assign all the bad things that happened to Jim and all the good things to Mitch when they were both working together. Mitch did a great job before the passing of Dr. Buss but it's time for a change. I would love if the Lakers were able to bring Neil Olshey or Jerry West to serve as general manager. I would even bring some new guys from the Spurs (Pauga), Warriors (Schlenk), or Thunder (Weaver) for a fresh perspective. |
Jerry is obviously a brilliant basketball mind and valuable asset to any franchise, but I wonder if you realize that he took over a 23 win team, peaked at 50 wins (multiple first round exits) and left it a 22 win team.
Maybe Mitch has earned the right to go through an entire rebuild process before being judged a failure? |
I would view Jerry West's time with Memphis a success. The Grizzlies were a terrible team before he arrived there and they were consistently in the playoffs from 2002 to 2007 (3 out of 5 years). He won executive of the year award during his stint with Memphis. With respect to his ownership of the Warriors, convince him to sell it and buy some Lakers shares from Patrick Soon-Shiong.
Mitch has been the Lakers GM since taking over from Jerry in 2000. He did a great job until 2013, which is around the same time Jim Buss' role was expanded. I don't think Mitch is clear from the failures of the past few seasons unless Jim ignored and went against Mitch's advice. I also think Lakers need some fresh perspective as free agents perceive Lakers as being too traditional and rely on their historical greatness. I wouldn't be opposed to promoting Mitch to a VP role and bringing in a new GM. |
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Hector the Pup
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
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Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| clutchkobe wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | MickMgl wrote: | | Wino wrote: | You guys know that if Buss stepped down after next year, whoever took over would need a few extra years to install his system and get the kind of players he wanted.
Come on guys, could you imagine Phil inheriting this team, with all it's youngsters??
He would NOT know what to do with them, other than trade them all and start over.
Dump Jim if he has a major setback. At this point, he is likely the shortest route to the promised land.
Bringing in someone new to run basketball operations would require a complete reboot.
That would be awful! |
Or promote Mitch. Or West. Or Walton. Or bring in Kobe. The point is, it doesn't have to be Phil. |
Not that that changes anything. None of them are owners. Someone from ownership has to have final call. |
as owner....he cant set the plan. he has never played the game of basketball....ever. he is the owner and has to rely on someone who can set up a plan and set the plan in motion. Mitch has shown he cant say no to jim buss or stand for what he believes in so mitch needs to go. We need someone who is strong and has confidence in what he is doing. |
There isn't a GM out there that can say no to the owner of the freaking team. And I do mean any team.
Because, ya know, they sorta own the team. It's theirs. |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Jerry West is also 78 and is a part owner of GS. |
West is not coming back.
He is a part owner and does not want to restart the process over again.
Plus his other son is working for the Warriors. |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| chekmatex4 wrote: | [
I would view Jerry West's time with Memphis a success. The Grizzlies were a terrible team before he arrived there and they were consistently in the playoffs from 2002 to 2007 (3 out of 5 years). He won executive of the year award during his stint with Memphis. With respect to his ownership of the Warriors, convince him to sell it and buy some Lakers shares from Patrick Soon-Shiong.
Mitch has been the Lakers GM since taking over from Jerry in 2000. He did a great job until 2013, which is around the same time Jim Buss' role was expanded. I don't think Mitch is clear from the failures of the past few seasons unless Jim ignored and went against Mitch's advice. I also think Lakers need some fresh perspective as free agents perceive Lakers as being too traditional and rely on their historical greatness. I wouldn't be opposed to promoting Mitch to a VP role and bringing in a new GM. |
Very strong post, well done.
People forget how bad Memphis was before West arrived there, it was a graveyard of coaches, players, GM....Vancouver had seen the Grizzlies go into cold hibernation for a decade and things weren't exactly humming in Memphis either.
West is amazing, but as Omar pointed out...he is also 78. That ship has sailed for the Lakers, glorious as it was.
I like the idea of making Mitch Executive VP in charge of Scouting and Draft Ops but with a true Head of Basketball Operations and/or General Manager above him with final say and primary outreach duties.
We need to be more dynamic and cutting edge going forward. Mitch has some strengths but way too many weaknesses as the Lakers will miss the playoffs for the fourth year in a row this season.
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fiendishoc
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| chekmatex4 wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | Mitch has just as much of the blame as Jim does unless Mitch provided advice that Jim ignored. It doesn't make sense to assign all the bad things that happened to Jim and all the good things to Mitch when they were both working together. Mitch did a great job before the passing of Dr. Buss but it's time for a change. I would love if the Lakers were able to bring Neil Olshey or Jerry West to serve as general manager. I would even bring some new guys from the Spurs (Pauga), Warriors (Schlenk), or Thunder (Weaver) for a fresh perspective. |
Jerry is obviously a brilliant basketball mind and valuable asset to any franchise, but I wonder if you realize that he took over a 23 win team, peaked at 50 wins (multiple first round exits) and left it a 22 win team.
Maybe Mitch has earned the right to go through an entire rebuild process before being judged a failure? |
I would view Jerry West's time with Memphis a success. The Grizzlies were a terrible team before he arrived there and they were consistently in the playoffs from 2002 to 2007 (3 out of 5 years). He won executive of the year award during his stint with Memphis. With respect to his ownership of the Warriors, convince him to sell it and buy some Lakers shares from Patrick Soon-Shiong.
Mitch has been the Lakers GM since taking over from Jerry in 2000. He did a great job until 2013, which is around the same time Jim Buss' role was expanded. I don't think Mitch is clear from the failures of the past few seasons unless Jim ignored and went against Mitch's advice. I also think Lakers need some fresh perspective as free agents perceive Lakers as being too traditional and rely on their historical greatness. I wouldn't be opposed to promoting Mitch to a VP role and bringing in a new GM. |
But when they went back down to the first of their 22 win seasons (22, 22, 24) would you have called for his head? (Assuming of course he didn't already resign on his own). |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | [
I would view Jerry West's time with Memphis a success. The Grizzlies were a terrible team before he arrived there and they were consistently in the playoffs from 2002 to 2007 (3 out of 5 years). He won executive of the year award during his stint with Memphis. With respect to his ownership of the Warriors, convince him to sell it and buy some Lakers shares from Patrick Soon-Shiong.
Mitch has been the Lakers GM since taking over from Jerry in 2000. He did a great job until 2013, which is around the same time Jim Buss' role was expanded. I don't think Mitch is clear from the failures of the past few seasons unless Jim ignored and went against Mitch's advice. I also think Lakers need some fresh perspective as free agents perceive Lakers as being too traditional and rely on their historical greatness. I wouldn't be opposed to promoting Mitch to a VP role and bringing in a new GM. |
Very strong post, well done.
People forget how bad Memphis was before West arrived there, it was a graveyard of coaches, players, GM....Vancouver had seen the Grizzlies go into cold hibernation for a decade and things weren't exactly humming in Memphis either.
West is amazing, but as Omar pointed out...he is also 78. That ship has sailed for the Lakers, glorious as it was.
I like the idea of making Mitch Executive VP in charge of Scouting and Draft Ops but with a true Head of Basketball Operations and/or General Manager above him with final say and primary outreach duties.
We need to be more dynamic and cutting edge going forward. Mitch has some strengths but way too many weaknesses as the Lakers will miss the playoffs for the fourth year in a row this season. |
Jim Buss will have the final say, just as Dr. Buss always did.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Mitch has been the Lakers GM since taking over from Jerry in 2000. He did a great job until 2013, which is around the same time Jim Buss' role was expanded. |
I think it's more that Lakers fans need a scapegoat when things are not going well. Mitch was that scapegoat the last rebuild. He received a similar level of hate from Lakers fans to what Jim receives now. People had sigs with images insulting Mitch, they called him Mitch Kupcake. Hell even Dr. Buss towards the end of it started receiving ire from Lakers fans after Kobe requested a trade. Someone has to be turned into a scapegoat for some fans, rather than accepting the reality of the situation. The reality last rebuild was that we blew up a title team out of necessity because we were either going to lose Kobe or we were going to lose Shaq. People complained about the lack of talent, the lack of willingness to gamble on trades which would have been disasters, etc. But the reality was that their title runs ended because their two stars couldn't get along.
The irony of things were that prior to acquiring Gasol in the move that got the Lakers back in the Finals, the Lakers team of home grown young players (Bynum, Farmar, Walton, Fisher, Vujacic), to go along with traded talent (Odom, Evans, Ariza) started the season 26-11 prior to the Gasol trade, and it wasn't a Kobe only attack, he only took 20 shots per game during that time, which was his lowest output since the Shaq/Payton/Malone season. Kupchak never took the bad trades, and kept themselves in a position to make a big move when one became available, and when it did they pounced and the result was three straight Finals appearances and two titles.
On the basis of that Mitch is less of a target. He's proven his worth. But someone has to be blamed for the Lakers run over the past few seasons. It would make too much sense to acknowledge that the injuries to Kobe and Nash, and Dwight's inability to mesh with Kobe were what caused their dilemma. It's a lot easier to focus on the fact that Dr. Buss died just prior to that chain of events happening, and to use Jim as the scapegoat. Jeanie meanwhile in her hurt over Phil has been quick to sacrifice Jim and put the blame on him. As have Lakers fans. They ignore the fact that Jim had more or less been doing the same role for more than a decade, the only difference was the final say always went to Dr. Buss, whose death concided with the Lakers bad run of luck. If Kobe doesn't blow his achilles, Nash is able to come back and the team makes a deep run in the playoffs that season I think Dwight resigns and the last three years futility never happens. If the Paul trade doesn't get vetoed inexplicably this run never happens (or at least is delayed until later). Dr. Buss would have had no more control over this situation than Jim does, but he would have been given a lot more leeway.
If the Lakers rebuild and get back into contention all will be forgotten. Until the next rebuild and they'll need a new scapegoat. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:04 am Post subject: |
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World class post from one of my favorite members of the class of 2005.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Krispy Kreme
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Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 12252
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | Quote: | | Mitch has been the Lakers GM since taking over from Jerry in 2000. He did a great job until 2013, which is around the same time Jim Buss' role was expanded. |
I think it's more that Lakers fans need a scapegoat when things are not going well. Mitch was that scapegoat the last rebuild. He received a similar level of hate from Lakers fans to what Jim receives now. People had sigs with images insulting Mitch, they called him Mitch Kupcake. Hell even Dr. Buss towards the end of it started receiving ire from Lakers fans after Kobe requested a trade. Someone has to be turned into a scapegoat for some fans, rather than accepting the reality of the situation. The reality last rebuild was that we blew up a title team out of necessity because we were either going to lose Kobe or we were going to lose Shaq. People complained about the lack of talent, the lack of willingness to gamble on trades which would have been disasters, etc. But the reality was that their title runs ended because their two stars couldn't get along.
The irony of things were that prior to acquiring Gasol in the move that got the Lakers back in the Finals, the Lakers team of home grown young players (Bynum, Farmar, Walton, Fisher, Vujacic), to go along with traded talent (Odom, Evans, Ariza) started the season 26-11 prior to the Gasol trade, and it wasn't a Kobe only attack, he only took 20 shots per game during that time, which was his lowest output since the Shaq/Payton/Malone season. Kupchak never took the bad trades, and kept themselves in a position to make a big move when one became available, and when it did they pounced and the result was three straight Finals appearances and two titles.
On the basis of that Mitch is less of a target. He's proven his worth. But someone has to be blamed for the Lakers run over the past few seasons. It would make too much sense to acknowledge that the injuries to Kobe and Nash, and Dwight's inability to mesh with Kobe were what caused their dilemma. It's a lot easier to focus on the fact that Dr. Buss died just prior to that chain of events happening, and to use Jim as the scapegoat. Jeanie meanwhile in her hurt over Phil has been quick to sacrifice Jim and put the blame on him. As have Lakers fans. They ignore the fact that Jim had more or less been doing the same role for more than a decade, the only difference was the final say always went to Dr. Buss, whose death concided with the Lakers bad run of luck. If Kobe doesn't blow his achilles, Nash is able to come back and the team makes a deep run in the playoffs that season I think Dwight resigns and the last three years futility never happens. If the Paul trade doesn't get vetoed inexplicably this run never happens (or at least is delayed until later). Dr. Buss would have had no more control over this situation than Jim does, but he would have been given a lot more leeway.
If the Lakers rebuild and get back into contention all will be forgotten. Until the next rebuild and they'll need a new scapegoat. |
True. 2013. That's when Dr. Buss infamously told Brian Shaw that he had to let Jim make decisions when Jim went with Mike Brown. You'd be stupid (and some are) to think Jerry made all of the decisions until his death. He groomed Jim for years. When we were winning titles. Then Jim got the keys after Phil left. Jim's role wasn't the same pre 2013 as it was post.
People think Jim picking a coach, and then going to Doctor Buss (on his deathbed, mind you) and Jerry saying, "Yep, go with MDA", means it was Jerry's decision. Bull crap. That's a cop out for people who don't put any responsibility on Jim Buss (oh, we know who they are). And if Jim really didn't want MDA, and he wanted Phil (hypothetically), then Jeannie wouldn't have been mad at Jim like she was. Jim wanted MDA because of his concern to work with Phil, and other reasons, and then Jerry gave the final buy off. Jim was still the one who did the research on MDA, interviewed him, etc. It wasn't Jerry. Jim did all the legwork , so I hold him responsible for that decision and the Mike Brown decision too. And Byron.
Thankfully, he did well with the Walton hire. He'll get credit on that from me. At least he didn't go 0-4 on hires.
It's kind of at a person's job. My boss puts me in charge of a project. Right before I submit it to the client, I show it to my boss for a final buy-off. He takes a quick glance, then tells me to fire it off. I was the one who did all the leg work on it. And if the project bombs for the client, who is at fault? The Boss? Because he had the final say? Or the guy who did 90+% of the work?
It's subjective, but I feel it's the person who did all of the work. They should get the blame and take the responsibility.
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USCandLakers
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Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 19955
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Krispy Kreme wrote: | People think Jim picking a coach, and then going to Doctor Buss (on his deathbed, mind you) and Jerry saying, "Yep, go with MDA", means it was Jerry's decision. Bull crap. That's a cop out for people who don't put any responsibility on Jim Buss (oh, we know who they are). And if Jim really didn't want MDA, and he wanted Phil (hypothetically), then Jeannie wouldn't have been mad at Jim like she was. Jim wanted MDA because of his concern to work with Phil, and other reasons, and then Jerry gave the final buy off. Jim was still the one who did the research on MDA, interviewed him, etc. It wasn't Jerry. Jim did all the legwork , so I hold him responsible for that decision and the Mike Brown decision too. And Byron.
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Mitch even tells us how MDA became the coach.
http://www.nba.com/lakers/features/121113kupchak-addresses-coaching-decision
| Quote: | I began discussions with Mike D'Antoni on Saturday afternoon, and we also set up an interview with another candidate for Sunday. All day Sunday, Jim and I and Dr. Buss (from another location) continued to discuss what the (best move) would be. After multiple phone calls with Mike D'Antoni on Sunday afternoon, at 5 or 6 o'clock on Sunday, we made the decision that Mike D'Antoni was going to be the next coach of the Lakers. It revolved almost completely around the personnel that we have on the team and the style of play we saw going forward for the team. Of course we took into consideration a structured offense, which is what we went through with Mike Brown. We looked at our personnel – without going into great detail, some of our guys I don't think would be successful in the triangle, (and) some of our new players might take a long time to learn the triangle. So we decided Mike would (be the coach).
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This is my go-to for why he shouldn't the GM. I remember reading that entire interview and my jaw being on the floor. A real good insight into Mitch's basketball knowledge.
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Deathstroke
Star Player
Joined: 10 Dec 2015
Posts: 2131
Location: OC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| To the Jim and Mitch defenders: How much longer are you guys willing to accept the team being bad and not contenders before you want a change in FO? Or are you guys willing to stick with Jim and Mitch forever? |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: | | To the Jim and Mitch defenders: How much longer are you guys willing to accept the team being bad and not contenders before you want a change in FO? Or are you guys willing to stick with Jim and Mitch forever? |
While the team shows a demonstrable upwards trajectory I have no problem with the front office. Right now, they are on a clear upwards swing with the second best young core in the NBA.
I would like for the team to get someone to bolster free agent recruiting pitches though. If Luke is not that guy (Mozgov and Deng stated he was, but obviously $$$ was just as big of a factor, if not bigger) then that is one front office change I want made. |
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ArminNBA
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Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 2171
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | People think Jim picking a coach, and then going to Doctor Buss (on his deathbed, mind you) and Jerry saying, "Yep, go with MDA", means it was Jerry's decision. Bull crap. That's a cop out for people who don't put any responsibility on Jim Buss (oh, we know who they are). And if Jim really didn't want MDA, and he wanted Phil (hypothetically), then Jeannie wouldn't have been mad at Jim like she was. Jim wanted MDA because of his concern to work with Phil, and other reasons, and then Jerry gave the final buy off. Jim was still the one who did the research on MDA, interviewed him, etc. It wasn't Jerry. Jim did all the legwork , so I hold him responsible for that decision and the Mike Brown decision too. And Byron.
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Mitch even tells us how MDA became the coach.
http://www.nba.com/lakers/features/121113kupchak-addresses-coaching-decision
| Quote: | I began discussions with Mike D'Antoni on Saturday afternoon, and we also set up an interview with another candidate for Sunday. All day Sunday, Jim and I and Dr. Buss (from another location) continued to discuss what the (best move) would be. After multiple phone calls with Mike D'Antoni on Sunday afternoon, at 5 or 6 o'clock on Sunday, we made the decision that Mike D'Antoni was going to be the next coach of the Lakers. It revolved almost completely around the personnel that we have on the team and the style of play we saw going forward for the team. Of course we took into consideration a structured offense, which is what we went through with Mike Brown. We looked at our personnel – without going into great detail, some of our guys I don't think would be successful in the triangle, (and) some of our new players might take a long time to learn the triangle. So we decided Mike would (be the coach).
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This is my go-to for why he shouldn't the GM. I remember reading that entire interview and my jaw being on the floor. A real good insight into Mitch's basketball knowledge. |
Mitch is a brilliant basketball mind. He proved it as a player for years. He's proven it as a GM.
Was the Triangle the right fit for that team? Yes and no. Yes, because when Kobe took over the offense after Game 42, he instilled a super primitive hybrid-Triangle offensive scheme. You may recall that we finished 28-12 and the Lakers were playing well.
However, the Lakers were not running the Triangle in its traditional form. We weren't getting into the automatics on the strong-side and looking for deep post position to the 5 spot. Kobe was running a ton of P&R within a loosely structured Triangle scheme. Dwight even became a more willing screen setter, albeit not as willing as he should have been.
You may also recall that Phil said at some point during that season that Dwight needed the ball in the post more. I looked it up to confirm my memory and Phil said that in February of that season. That is wholly wrong and clearly beholden to Phil's Triangle principles.
Dwight averaged .85 PPP in the post that season, utterly average. He also, I believe, had a 20% TO rate. He was abysmal. Phil would've pressed the issue and forced it to Dwight.
I love Phil. I wanted Phil. However, Phil likely wouldn't have been the perfect choice. Neither was Mike D'Antoni.
The truth of the matter is that the right coach for that particular team in that context, having no opportunity for a training camp and early-season turmoil, was a coach like Bernie Bickertstaff. Why? Because that team needed Kobe to work things out on the court. Bernie let Kobe run things and the Lakers went 4-1 (only loss was a super close call to the Spurs). Mike D'Antoni let Kobe run things and they went 28-12. With no training camp and upheaval, we needed to let our best player and All-NBA First Team that season (27/6/6 on 46% shooting) to run the show. Phil wouldn't have ever done it in trying to acquiesce Dwight. D'Antoni took too long to give up trying to instill his own offensive schemes. Neither was perfect.
Don't decry Mitch for his basketball knowledge. That was a difficult situation to foresee. It's easy to throw Mitch under the buss and take out frustrations on him. However, if you take a nuanced, deep look into what happened, Mitch isn't to blame. |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: | | To the Jim and Mitch defenders: How much longer are you guys willing to accept the team being bad and not contenders before you want a change in FO? Or are you guys willing to stick with Jim and Mitch forever? |
Well, the team has a different dynamic now that Kobe is gone. Completely different direction and priorities now. I'll admit D'Antoni was a questionable hire and not focusing on Ed Davis in the off-season also hurt them. In retrospect, Byron Scott seems to me like he was a Kobe hire, and he did his best to give Kobe the proper send-off. It wasn't so much about winning a chip as it was about Kobe generating relevance in LA. And they tried to pair him with Aldridge, but the pitch was more about the LA lifestyle than about winning. That's gone now. Lakers are realizing it's not 1996 anymore and most good teams are homegrown.
You can't hold them to that 1996 standard. Free agents will go to teams that have good cultures. It ain't about locale no more.
And their drafting? You can't beat that. Their power level is over 9000.
Mitch and Jim are here to stay. They aren't going anywhere. Ryan West will also make a heck of the GM when Mitch is ready to step down.
Last edited by KindCrippler2000 on Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ArminNBA
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Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 2171
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: | | To the Jim and Mitch defenders: How much longer are you guys willing to accept the team being bad and not contenders before you want a change in FO? Or are you guys willing to stick with Jim and Mitch forever? |
They clearly deserve another 2 years. I wrote this in the FO P&M thread and think it's an appropriate response here:
| Quote: | While understanding that there should be a space for people to express whatever opinions they hold (however absurd), this thread shouldn't even exist because there is absolutely nothing to "piss and moan" about.
Bravo, FO!  Continue the excellent work. Many fans won't recognize the brilliance until the product is finished. However, some fans are enjoying and appreciating the journey; understanding that ups and downs are inevitable in sports. In 2013, the Lakers were an aging roster built to win-now. An Achilles injury and nerve damage destroyed those hopes. In only 3 years, the front office has amassed a hoard of talent that is poised to make noise within 2 years. From disaster to a completed rebuild in less than 5 years is rare, maybe unprecedented.
Some fans who lack knowledge point to situations they find preferential, like the Wolves for example. FYI, the Wolves began their rebuild in 2007 by trading their franchise talent, Garnett, who was nearing the end of his prime (only 12 seasons into his career, less than Lebron has currently been in the league for comparison), a luxury we did not have for the current rebuild (thankfully our franchise talent was able to play high-level basketball for us for 17 seasons and win a championship 14 seasons into his tenure with us). Now, 9 years later, the Wolves are in a similar position (likely better yet arguably similar) as we are in now, except we began the rebuild in 2013 and won championships with our superstar at the end of his prime in 2009 and 2010. We're lucky to have an awesome front office. Unfortunately, fans aren't appreciative and don't step back to see the bigger picture. |
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Deathstroke
Star Player
Joined: 10 Dec 2015
Posts: 2131
Location: OC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: | | To the Jim and Mitch defenders: How much longer are you guys willing to accept the team being bad and not contenders before you want a change in FO? Or are you guys willing to stick with Jim and Mitch forever? |
While the team shows a demonstrable upwards trajectory I have no problem with the front office. Right now, they are on a clear upwards swing with the second best young core in the NBA.
I would like for the team to get someone to bolster free agent recruiting pitches though. If Luke is not that guy (Mozgov and Deng stated he was, but obviously $$$ was just as big of a factor, if not bigger) then that is one front office change I want made. |
We aren't on a clear upward trajectory wins wise. I do like our young core and I do think it's the 2nd best young core in the league but that needs to start translating to wins.
How many more seasons do you give them until it's clear they aren't going to get us back to contendership? |
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