|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
LakerFan1977
Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 581
Location: Southern California
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:12 pm Post subject: Is Kobe the all time leader in clutch shots? |
|
|
I have seen Kobe make so many clutch shots that other than Michael Jordan is there anyone even close? Is there some computer somewhere that kept that stat and if so is the criteria simply game winning or game tying shots at the end of the game and OT, I don't really think shots at the end of quarters 1-3 would count, then you have to factor in other factors like did they televise every Jerry West game back in the 60's to verify Mr. Clutch's total number, I'm sure it could be done, or has it already been done, did they start keeping that stat like in an ESPN computer in 1999?
_________________
Hambuger! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Chadley
Sixth Man
Joined: 13 Jul 2016
Posts: 46
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I don't think I've ever seen him miss a game winner! Favorite player for sure! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
umanasibo
Starting Rotation
Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 110
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kobe has missed a ton of last-second shots. But he's also made more than any other player in history (35-plus, I believe, although to be candid, I don't have the exact number), including the shot that beat the Jazz in his last game. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
methdxman
Star Player
Joined: 31 Jan 2002
Posts: 6879
Location: Los Angeles/Barcelona
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The important thing to define here is "what is clutch"? I think people have an extremely narrow definition of this. ESPN always makes this as a shot to tie or go-ahead in the last minute of 4th quarter or overtime. I don't think anyone who is a serious student of the game will limit clutch to this definition.
Any Kobe fan knows how many momentum gaining/altering shots he has made in his career no matter how much time is left on the clock. How many times has he stopped a run with a dagger three to silence the home crowd? How many daggers in the middle of the fourth? The third? It's very hard to quantify these things, but I can very comfortably say that there are very few players in NBA players with this type of momentum control.
For me this is what defines clutch, basically imposing your will in crucial moments of the game.
End-game situations/scenarios are, of course, clutch moments, but sometimes things are out of your control by then. You could be double teamed... Remember the only reason why Fisher had an open shot with 0.4 against San Antonio was that they were double-teaming Kobe off of the ball on Horry's inbound. A lot of times, even when Kobe is getting the ball, he is taking low, low percentage jumpers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And people ignore clutch defense and clutch rebounding.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerFan1977
Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 581
Location: Southern California
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| methdxman wrote: | The important thing to define here is "what is clutch"? I think people have an extremely narrow definition of this. ESPN always makes this as a shot to tie or go-ahead in the last minute of 4th quarter or overtime. I don't think anyone who is a serious student of the game will limit clutch to this definition.
Any Kobe fan knows how many momentum gaining/altering shots he has made in his career no matter how much time is left on the clock. How many times has he stopped a run with a dagger three to silence the home crowd? How many daggers in the middle of the fourth? The third? It's very hard to quantify these things, but I can very comfortably say that there are very few players in NBA players with this type of momentum control.
For me this is what defines clutch, basically imposing your will in crucial moments of the game.
End-game situations/scenarios are, of course, clutch moments, but sometimes things are out of your control by then. You could be double teamed... Remember the only reason why Fisher had an open shot with 0.4 against San Antonio was that they were double-teaming Kobe off of the ball on Horry's inbound. A lot of times, even when Kobe is getting the ball, he is taking low, low percentage jumpers. |
I definitely agree that game tying, go ahead, or game winning shots with 1min left in regulation and overtime automatically qualifies, but momentum shots and stopping the other teams runs of shots made I don't think would qualify as those two scenarios happen all the time in the ebb and flow of a game
that being said it would be interesting to see if there was somehow a way to track that stat, of course like the offensive rebound and the triple double stat there had to be a year that the stats we tallied and made official stats, obviously Magic would of had a lot more triple doubles because they started keeping the stat in 1986 so he would of probably had more triple doubles than Jason Kidd but then again Oscar Robinson probably would of had more than Magic so who knows
But as far as the clutch shot stat, I'm sure that if they picked a random year like say 1996 or 1984 or something and paid some team of NBA office interns to go through and game tape records they could easily tally who has the most, it would take a while but they could easily determine who made the most per season, per all star game and playoffs as well
of course it could be a deceiving stat if not well defined like every other stats, for instance even with a min left the possession of the ball can change 3, 4 or 5 times, so if a player made a shot with 59 seconds left and the teams changes possessions 4 more times should that 59 seconds shot be considered clutch? probably not, so it would have to be on the last two possessions or something closely relevant to that to signify the validity of the clutch FG's because if two opposing players make back to back clutch shots shouldn't the clutch shot that won the game get the clutch shot statistical validity? I think so
so my complete definition would be CFG or Clutch Field Goal: a game winning, go ahead, or game tying FG on the last team possession of the end of regulation or end of any overtime period
_________________
Hambuger! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast
Last edited by LakerFan1977 on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Is Kobe the all time leader in clutch shots? |
|
|
| LakerFan1977 wrote: | | I have seen Kobe make so many clutch shots that other than Michael Jordan is there anyone even close? Is there some computer somewhere that kept that stat and if so is the criteria simply game winning or game tying shots at the end of the game and OT, I don't really think shots at the end of quarters 1-3 would count, then you have to factor in other factors like did they televise every Jerry West game back in the 60's to verify Mr. Clutch's total number, I'm sure it could be done, or has it already been done, did they start keeping that stat like in an ESPN computer in 1999? |
There isn't a standard definition of a clutch shot but you could use a shot to tie the game or take the lead with 1 minute left in the 4th quarter or overtime. According to basketball-reference, Kobe has shot 97 for 287 or 33% in those situations dating back to 2001 (which is the earliest they have).
I don't believe that kind of data is available for Kareem, Jordan, Havlicek and other earlier players so there probably isn't an answer to this question. My guess is Kobe has more than anyone since 2001, though Lebron will probably pass him in a couple of years (he's at 75 made with a 38% shooting percentage.
I believe the guy who shoots these shots at the highest percentage is Carmelo Anthony.
Last edited by activeverb on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerFan1977 wrote: | | methdxman wrote: | The important thing to define here is "what is clutch"? I think people have an extremely narrow definition of this. ESPN always makes this as a shot to tie or go-ahead in the last minute of 4th quarter or overtime. I don't think anyone who is a serious student of the game will limit clutch to this definition.
Any Kobe fan knows how many momentum gaining/altering shots he has made in his career no matter how much time is left on the clock. How many times has he stopped a run with a dagger three to silence the home crowd? How many daggers in the middle of the fourth? The third? It's very hard to quantify these things, but I can very comfortably say that there are very few players in NBA players with this type of momentum control.
For me this is what defines clutch, basically imposing your will in crucial moments of the game.
End-game situations/scenarios are, of course, clutch moments, but sometimes things are out of your control by then. You could be double teamed... Remember the only reason why Fisher had an open shot with 0.4 against San Antonio was that they were double-teaming Kobe off of the ball on Horry's inbound. A lot of times, even when Kobe is getting the ball, he is taking low, low percentage jumpers. |
I definitely agree that game tying, go ahead, or game winning shots with 1min left in regulation and overtime automatically qualifies, but momentum shots and stopping the other teams runs of shots made I don't think would qualify as those two scenarios happen all the time in the ebb and flow of a game
that being said it would be interesting to see if there was somehow a way to track that stat, of course like the offensive rebound and the triple double stat there had to be a year that the stats we tallied and made official stats, obviously Magic would of had a lot more triple doubles because they started keeping the stat in 1986 so he would of probably had more triple doubles than Jason Kidd but then again Oscar Robinson probably would of had more than Magic so who knows
But as far as the clutch shot stat, I'm sure that if they picked a random year like say 1996 or 1984 or something and paid some team of NBA office interns to go through and game tape records they could easily tally who has the most, it would take a while but they could easily determine who made the most per season, per all star game and playoffs as well
of course it could be a deceiving stat if not well defined like every other stats, for instance even with a min left the possession of the ball can change 3, 4 or 5 times, so if a player made a shot with 59 seconds left and the teams changes possessions 4 more times should that 59 seconds shot be considered clutch? probably not, so it would have to be on the last two possessions or something closely relevant to that to signify the validity of the clutch FG's because if two opposing players make back to back clutch shots shouldn't the clutch shot that won the game get the clutch shot statistical validity? I think so
so my complete definition would be CFG or Clutch Field Goal: a game winning, go ahead, or game tying FG on the last possession of the end of regulation or end of any overtime period |
They do have triple doubles for Oscar's career: He blows everyone away.
Oscar .. 181
Magic ... 138
Kidd ... 107
Wilt ... 78
Bird ... 59 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Is Kobe the all time leader in clutch shots? |
|
|
| Most made, maybe. Most attempts, probably. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerFan1977
Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 581
Location: Southern California
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| activeverb wrote: | | LakerFan1977 wrote: | | methdxman wrote: | The important thing to define here is "what is clutch"? I think people have an extremely narrow definition of this. ESPN always makes this as a shot to tie or go-ahead in the last minute of 4th quarter or overtime. I don't think anyone who is a serious student of the game will limit clutch to this definition.
Any Kobe fan knows how many momentum gaining/altering shots he has made in his career no matter how much time is left on the clock. How many times has he stopped a run with a dagger three to silence the home crowd? How many daggers in the middle of the fourth? The third? It's very hard to quantify these things, but I can very comfortably say that there are very few players in NBA players with this type of momentum control.
For me this is what defines clutch, basically imposing your will in crucial moments of the game.
End-game situations/scenarios are, of course, clutch moments, but sometimes things are out of your control by then. You could be double teamed... Remember the only reason why Fisher had an open shot with 0.4 against San Antonio was that they were double-teaming Kobe off of the ball on Horry's inbound. A lot of times, even when Kobe is getting the ball, he is taking low, low percentage jumpers. |
I definitely agree that game tying, go ahead, or game winning shots with 1min left in regulation and overtime automatically qualifies, but momentum shots and stopping the other teams runs of shots made I don't think would qualify as those two scenarios happen all the time in the ebb and flow of a game
that being said it would be interesting to see if there was somehow a way to track that stat, of course like the offensive rebound and the triple double stat there had to be a year that the stats we tallied and made official stats, obviously Magic would of had a lot more triple doubles because they started keeping the stat in 1986 so he would of probably had more triple doubles than Jason Kidd but then again Oscar Robinson probably would of had more than Magic so who knows
But as far as the clutch shot stat, I'm sure that if they picked a random year like say 1996 or 1984 or something and paid some team of NBA office interns to go through and game tape records they could easily tally who has the most, it would take a while but they could easily determine who made the most per season, per all star game and playoffs as well
of course it could be a deceiving stat if not well defined like every other stats, for instance even with a min left the possession of the ball can change 3, 4 or 5 times, so if a player made a shot with 59 seconds left and the teams changes possessions 4 more times should that 59 seconds shot be considered clutch? probably not, so it would have to be on the last two possessions or something closely relevant to that to signify the validity of the clutch FG's because if two opposing players make back to back clutch shots shouldn't the clutch shot that won the game get the clutch shot statistical validity? I think so
so my complete definition would be CFG or Clutch Field Goal: a game winning, go ahead, or game tying FG on the last possession of the end of regulation or end of any overtime period |
They do have triple doubles for Oscar's career: He blows everyone away.
Oscar .. 181
Magic ... 138
Kidd ... 107
Wilt ... 78
Bird ... 59 |
Didn't Kidd end with 114? This must of been unofficial stats keeping because the stat would have to be regulated by the NBA as an official statistic, like offensive rebounds it had a season where it became an official stat therefore recognized for record keeping and setting and breaking records, Jason Kidd passed the official record of Magic's Triple Double record didn't he?
_________________
Hambuger! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
panamaniac
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 11239
Location: PTY
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kobe always had the nerve and resolve to take those shots, which is half the battle. He definitely made more than enough. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
There is no good way to define clutch, and I've seen many discussions to try to quantify it.
As far as delivering big shots in high pressure situations; kobe is god. There is nobody even close. As much as people like to say MJ, even he is not close. Because he didn't have that crazy 3point range.
If you watch highlights of his 2013 season, where he is doing crazy threes and dunks...look at the scoreboard. usually the lakers are down one or two, it's a tight game. And it's like almost all of those highlights. Nobody is close to delivering like this.
Take, for example, that sequence vs the Raptors or Hawks (some red team) where he hits those 3 crazy threes one after another in a tight game. Who does that? Nobody really does that. Definitely nobody was doing that before him, not even a sniff of anything like that.
You see guys like Curry and Lillard doing it now. But that's because the league has gone 3point crazy the last two years.
People are going to toss a bunch of numbers here and none of it is really going to make sense. But people who watched a few decades of basketball will know that they never ever saw anyone making these kind of shots (the whole arsenal...dunks/mid/3point/crazy curry 3pointer) on this regular of a basis. The closest I've even caught a glimpse of is the pistol pete highlights, but everyone says on a average basis, he didn't have the right personnel or team or was in the wrong era for that sort of thing. But he's the closest I've seen. MJ, of course. He didn't have the crazy range, that's a big deal with him. And even he didn't have the volume Kobe had. He would come closest.
Here's another crazy example; in that 2011 season or whatever, he hit those 6 buzzer beaters in one season. And it was really a short span, a 3 months or so. It was crazy! I remember thinking "I am positive I have never seen anything like this before. This is crazy." And I was saying that after the third one. And one of them was over Wade, a top player in the league. It's all so ridiculous sometimes.
And how about the double clutch rarity? A very rare thing, like a no-hitter, is hitting a clutch shot to send it into overtime, and hitting the winner in the same game. Kobe has two of these, remarkable ones at that. The two threes vs Portland in that last game of the season. Those were insane. A player is lucky to have a buzzer beater in a career, let alone two, let alone two of the double buzzer variety. I would say other than Kobe, nobody has two of those. The other was against the Suns: the layup to send to OT, and the famous winner. And Kobe lost his mind after that.
This is why I go crazy with the comparisons to Duncan and Lebron and whoever. Professional success is one thing, but making people go nutz from what they are seeing is another. This is why Kobe is a god in china, and not lebron or duncan. And Kobe gave them that 4-point play in the gold medal game over there. I think Marbury is over there, and it's always hilarious to hear him talk about Kobe in China. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
methdxman
Star Player
Joined: 31 Jan 2002
Posts: 6879
Location: Los Angeles/Barcelona
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerFan1977 wrote: | | methdxman wrote: | The important thing to define here is "what is clutch"? I think people have an extremely narrow definition of this. ESPN always makes this as a shot to tie or go-ahead in the last minute of 4th quarter or overtime. I don't think anyone who is a serious student of the game will limit clutch to this definition.
Any Kobe fan knows how many momentum gaining/altering shots he has made in his career no matter how much time is left on the clock. How many times has he stopped a run with a dagger three to silence the home crowd? How many daggers in the middle of the fourth? The third? It's very hard to quantify these things, but I can very comfortably say that there are very few players in NBA players with this type of momentum control.
For me this is what defines clutch, basically imposing your will in crucial moments of the game.
End-game situations/scenarios are, of course, clutch moments, but sometimes things are out of your control by then. You could be double teamed... Remember the only reason why Fisher had an open shot with 0.4 against San Antonio was that they were double-teaming Kobe off of the ball on Horry's inbound. A lot of times, even when Kobe is getting the ball, he is taking low, low percentage jumpers. |
I definitely agree that game tying, go ahead, or game winning shots with 1min left in regulation and overtime automatically qualifies, but momentum shots and stopping the other teams runs of shots made I don't think would qualify as those two scenarios happen all the time in the ebb and flow of a game
that being said it would be interesting to see if there was somehow a way to track that stat, of course like the offensive rebound and the triple double stat there had to be a year that the stats we tallied and made official stats, obviously Magic would of had a lot more triple doubles because they started keeping the stat in 1986 so he would of probably had more triple doubles than Jason Kidd but then again Oscar Robinson probably would of had more than Magic so who knows
But as far as the clutch shot stat, I'm sure that if they picked a random year like say 1996 or 1984 or something and paid some team of NBA office interns to go through and game tape records they could easily tally who has the most, it would take a while but they could easily determine who made the most per season, per all star game and playoffs as well
of course it could be a deceiving stat if not well defined like every other stats, for instance even with a min left the possession of the ball can change 3, 4 or 5 times, so if a player made a shot with 59 seconds left and the teams changes possessions 4 more times should that 59 seconds shot be considered clutch? probably not, so it would have to be on the last two possessions or something closely relevant to that to signify the validity of the clutch FG's because if two opposing players make back to back clutch shots shouldn't the clutch shot that won the game get the clutch shot statistical validity? I think so
so my complete definition would be CFG or Clutch Field Goal: a game winning, go ahead, or game tying FG on the last team possession of the end of regulation or end of any overtime period |
I have serious problems with this. What if you're up 1 and you hit a 3 with 17 seconds in regulation? This is not a clutch shot? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| It is almost as if the internet never existed....the data has been available on 82games.com for...oh, like a decade plus. And on basketball-reference.com (with different framing parameters) for a few years. So maybe just get the data before posting. I'm not going to try to sway anyone who approaches life with a "my memory is better than the data of actual recorded events" sentiments. But it's there, you can look it up. Of course, the reason the sentimentality crowd won't look it up is that it counters their perception of reality, as if an all-time great cannot have any flaws.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Is Kobe the all time leader in clutch shots? |
|
|
| activeverb wrote: | | LakerFan1977 wrote: | | I have seen Kobe make so many clutch shots that other than Michael Jordan is there anyone even close? Is there some computer somewhere that kept that stat and if so is the criteria simply game winning or game tying shots at the end of the game and OT, I don't really think shots at the end of quarters 1-3 would count, then you have to factor in other factors like did they televise every Jerry West game back in the 60's to verify Mr. Clutch's total number, I'm sure it could be done, or has it already been done, did they start keeping that stat like in an ESPN computer in 1999? |
There isn't a standard definition of a clutch shot but you could use a shot to tie the game or take the lead with 1 minute left in the 4th quarter or overtime. According to basketball-reference, Kobe has shot 97 for 287 or 33% in those situations dating back to 2001 (which is the earliest they have).
I don't believe that kind of data is available for Kareem, Jordan, Havlicek and other earlier players so there probably isn't an answer to this question. My guess is Kobe has more than anyone since 2001, though Lebron will probably pass him in a couple of years (he's at 75 made with a 38% shooting percentage.
I believe the guy who shoots these shots at the highest percentage is Carmelo Anthony. |
The other problem with "tie or take the lead" is that some situations, including clutch ones, may not call for it. For instance, say you're down 3 with a shot clock to go. You don't need a 3. You need a 2, then foul, then figure out what you need next based on the FTs that are made.
I'd say, if you make that 2, that that is a clutch shot, but it probably wouldn't factor in to most algorithmic calculations as one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| methdxman wrote: | | I have serious problems with this. What if you're up 1 and you hit a 3 with 17 seconds in regulation? This is not a clutch shot? |
Good point. And up above, I listed a scenario where you are down 3 but opt for a "hit the 2 and the foul" scenario. In my eyes, if you do indeed hit that 2, that should be considered clutch.
Frankly, I don't think you can quantify clutch. Some defensive plays might be considered clutch but others might just be the opposing player being sloppy with the ball. On the flip side, some made shots could just have been lucky. For instance, that one banked in 3 over Wade that Kobe made ... I never really considered that being clutch because I never believed he intended to bank it in. (Loved the result just the same). And can you make a clutch assist?
But the Portland shots over Ruben Patterson? Clutch. The shots made in ... I think it was game 4 against the Suns? Clutch.
I think at the end of the day, clutch is measured by how fearful a person, as an opposing fan, is with a respective player just being in the game at crucial moments. I'm certain opposing fans were pooping bricks when Kobe was in at end of games. I know I would be if Curry were facing my team. Or Durant. CP3 perhaps. Melo back in the day. But not Lebron as much. Or Westbrook, or Paul George.
Even though some of those guys weren't great defenders, you just always feel like they're going to impact the game in a favorable way for themselves somehow and feel relieved if and when they don't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chadley
Sixth Man
Joined: 13 Jul 2016
Posts: 46
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SuperboyReformed wrote: | There is no good way to define clutch, and I've seen many discussions to try to quantify it.
As far as delivering big shots in high pressure situations; kobe is god. There is nobody even close. As much as people like to say MJ, even he is not close. Because he didn't have that crazy 3point range.
If you watch highlights of his 2013 season, where he is doing crazy threes and dunks...look at the scoreboard. usually the lakers are down one or two, it's a tight game. And it's like almost all of those highlights. Nobody is close to delivering like this.
Take, for example, that sequence vs the Raptors or Hawks (some red team) where he hits those 3 crazy threes one after another in a tight game. Who does that? Nobody really does that. Definitely nobody was doing that before him, not even a sniff of anything like that.
You see guys like Curry and Lillard doing it now. But that's because the league has gone 3point crazy the last two years.
People are going to toss a bunch of numbers here and none of it is really going to make sense. But people who watched a few decades of basketball will know that they never ever saw anyone making these kind of shots (the whole arsenal...dunks/mid/3point/crazy curry 3pointer) on this regular of a basis. The closest I've even caught a glimpse of is the pistol pete highlights, but everyone says on a average basis, he didn't have the right personnel or team or was in the wrong era for that sort of thing. But he's the closest I've seen. MJ, of course. He didn't have the crazy range, that's a big deal with him. And even he didn't have the volume Kobe had. He would come closest.
Here's another crazy example; in that 2011 season or whatever, he hit those 6 buzzer beaters in one season. And it was really a short span, a 3 months or so. It was crazy! I remember thinking "I am positive I have never seen anything like this before. This is crazy." And I was saying that after the third one. And one of them was over Wade, a top player in the league. It's all so ridiculous sometimes.
And how about the double clutch rarity? A very rare thing, like a no-hitter, is hitting a clutch shot to send it into overtime, and hitting the winner in the same game. Kobe has two of these, remarkable ones at that. The two threes vs Portland in that last game of the season. Those were insane. A player is lucky to have a buzzer beater in a career, let alone two, let alone two of the double buzzer variety. I would say other than Kobe, nobody has two of those. The other was against the Suns: the layup to send to OT, and the famous winner. And Kobe lost his mind after that.
This is why I go crazy with the comparisons to Duncan and Lebron and whoever. Professional success is one thing, but making people go nutz from what they are seeing is another. This is why Kobe is a god in china, and not lebron or duncan. And Kobe gave them that 4-point play in the gold medal game over there. I think Marbury is over there, and it's always hilarious to hear him talk about Kobe in China. |
Agreed! I have never seen him miss a buzzer beater! Have you seen the youtube video where he makes EVERY SINGLE POTENTIAL GAME WINNING SHOT HE TAKES??! AND THERE'S LIKE 30 OF THEM! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vancouver Fan
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Chadley wrote: | | I don't think I've ever seen him miss a game winner! Favorite player for sure! |
He's missed a bunch. All the great ones do. However, it's the amount of makes that people remember and Kobe has a boat load.
_________________
Music is my medicine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chadley
Sixth Man
Joined: 13 Jul 2016
Posts: 46
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Chadley wrote: | | I don't think I've ever seen him miss a game winner! Favorite player for sure! |
He's missed a bunch. All the great ones do. However, it's the amount of makes that people remember and Kobe has a boat load. |
Well, I've never seen it happen! He definitely makes buzzer beaters A LOT more than he misses them! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mhan00
Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32059
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Chadley wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Chadley wrote: | | I don't think I've ever seen him miss a game winner! Favorite player for sure! |
He's missed a bunch. All the great ones do. However, it's the amount of makes that people remember and Kobe has a boat load. |
Well, I've never seen it happen! He definitely makes buzzer beaters A LOT more than he misses them! |
You've probably seen it a lot (and if you're a guy like me who watches every game you've definitely seen it a lot), you just don't remember them because you're a fan and the memory of Kobe hitting a crazy shot to tie or win the game is way more vivid than one where he missed. Happens to everyone. Kind of like how some Jordan fans swear up and down that he never missed a big shot or had a bad game in the playoffs/finals, which is especially funny since Jordan had a commercial where he said he missed more buzzer beaters than he made (for Nike, iirc) . Kobe is the same, he has missed more buzzer beaters than he made, but that's the name of the game for clutch shots. I doubt anyone in the history of the game who has taken a good volume of buzzer beaters has made more than they missed since the very nature of buzzer beaters generally means you have to settle for a less than ideal shot. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
evetssteve10
Star Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 3099
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Is Kobe the all time leader in clutch shots? |
|
|
| tox wrote: | | Most made, maybe. Most attempts, probably. |
That's what I love about him. At least one of the things. He's always willing to take that shot. 99.9% of players cannot truly say that.
_________________
"Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number 1 player changes every other year. Somehow the number 1 player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. ". The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CabinCreek44
Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 3855
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
West made a ton of them, but TV coverage back then was virtually non-existent when compared to today's wall-to-wall coverage, so there isn't enough documented visual evidence. And in today's world, if one didn't see it, it simply didn't happen.
I don't know where Kobe ranks, but I know I always felt confident watching him fire the rock with the game on the line. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Chadley wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Chadley wrote: | | I don't think I've ever seen him miss a game winner! Favorite player for sure! |
He's missed a bunch. All the great ones do. However, it's the amount of makes that people remember and Kobe has a boat load. |
Well, I've never seen it happen! He definitely makes buzzer beaters A LOT more than he misses them! |
33% means he makes one for every two he misses. Math is your friend.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
moonriver24
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Clutch shots, imo, mean shots that make a team competitive again or shots that afford a win. In the first definition, a player makes some great shots to bring back his team from a losing position to a position to tie or to win. It does not necessarily a must win to be clutch.
In lakers case, kobe had brought Lakers back from a big deficit to give lakers a chance to win. We have witnessed many clutch shots from kobe that resulted in Ws. But many must have forgotten his clutch shots because in the end lakers lost.
Clutch shooters often force teams to double team them for the last minute shots. They would rather be beaten by any other player. How many times have we witnessed kobe being denied the ball by double teamed? The 0.4 by fisher is a great example of fear imposed by a clutch shooter. The spurs doubled kobe beyond the arch leaving fischer lits of room to beat manu ginobli for the killing shot.
Clutch shooters want to take the last shots without any hesitation from anywhere. What separate mj n kobe? Those unbelievable threes when kobe was in the zone.
_________________
Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chadley
Sixth Man
Joined: 13 Jul 2016
Posts: 46
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| moonriver24 wrote: | Clutch shots, imo, mean shots that make a team competitive again or shots that afford a win. In the first definition, a player makes some great shots to bring back his team from a losing position to a position to tie or to win. It does not necessarily a must win to be clutch.
In lakers case, kobe had brought Lakers back from a big deficit to give lakers a chance to win. We have witnessed many clutch shots from kobe that resulted in Ws. But many must have forgotten his clutch shots because in the end lakers lost.
Clutch shooters often force teams to double team them for the last minute shots. They would rather be beaten by any other player. How many times have we witnessed kobe being denied the ball by double teamed? The 0.4 by fisher is a great example of fear imposed by a clutch shooter. The spurs doubled kobe beyond the arch leaving fischer lits of room to beat manu ginobli for the killing shot.
Clutch shooters want to take the last shots without any hesitation from anywhere. What separate mj n kobe? Those unbelievable threes when kobe was in the zone. |
MJ is the only person who comes close to contesting Kobe, but it's still not close. Kobe is a way better clutch player than anyone |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
