|
Media members voted for All-Summer League teams, leaving off D’Angelo Russell (22 ppg, 6R, 4A, LAL 3-1 when played).
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
AY2043
Franchise Player
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 10621
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Plaza234 wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Because Ive seen your posts and you constantly refuse to contextualize his age, the situation he was under in his first year, etc. you act as if he has 1-2 years to become who he is and that's that. |
That's my opinion on most players who lack athletic ability. They are who they are. People get way too carried away with what Steph Curry did thinking that any average joe can just become the most skilled player in the game and beat everyone thru pure skill. It simply does not happen. He's an anomaly. He's a freak in that way. Nobody like him before, nobody like him since.
Has Andre Miller really changed much from when he started? How about Chauncey Billups? Manu Ginobbili. These guys that aren't that athletic, don't really change up or improve their games. Maybe some become better shooters. But everything else - they are what they are.
Look at James Harden. His game really has not changed much other than more usage since starting in OKC. He's always had that big body that can, while not being very quick, can burrow past defenders off the dribble. He's always had that. In fact, he may have gotten less athletic now than when he came into the league.
There just is not that big development curve for non-athletic players. |
Russell had in many ways a better rookie season than Billups or Miller did, under pretty great duress, and he is already much more skilled a scorer than either. And both of them got considerably better as they went along. And Ginobili? Dude became one of the most valuable perimeter threats in the league... |
When you win 17 games, you gotta take individual stats with a grain of salt. Putting up numbers on good teams vs putting them up on bad teams in garbage time is not the same thing. |
You must think Okafor REALLY sucks then. His team only won 10 games. What about Towns? His team had the 5th worst record in the league. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
fiendishoc
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Plaza234 wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Because Ive seen your posts and you constantly refuse to contextualize his age, the situation he was under in his first year, etc. you act as if he has 1-2 years to become who he is and that's that. |
That's my opinion on most players who lack athletic ability. They are who they are. People get way too carried away with what Steph Curry did thinking that any average joe can just become the most skilled player in the game and beat everyone thru pure skill. It simply does not happen. He's an anomaly. He's a freak in that way. Nobody like him before, nobody like him since.
Has Andre Miller really changed much from when he started? How about Chauncey Billups? Manu Ginobbili. These guys that aren't that athletic, don't really change up or improve their games. Maybe some become better shooters. But everything else - they are what they are.
Look at James Harden. His game really has not changed much other than more usage since starting in OKC. He's always had that big body that can, while not being very quick, can burrow past defenders off the dribble. He's always had that. In fact, he may have gotten less athletic now than when he came into the league.
There just is not that big development curve for non-athletic players. |
Russell had in many ways a better rookie season than Billups or Miller did, under pretty great duress, and he is already much more skilled a scorer than either. And both of them got considerably better as they went along. And Ginobili? Dude became one of the most valuable perimeter threats in the league... |
When you win 17 games, you gotta take individual stats with a grain of salt. Putting up numbers on good teams vs putting them up on bad teams in garbage time is not the same thing. |
Russell Westbrook had a worse statistical rookie season and won 23 games with Durant on his team. Just because he's athletic he somehow gets a pass in your book? What about Steve Nash then? Keep changing the goalposts though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Truck Turner
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2011
Posts: 3937
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
At this point the people ragging on D'Lo for his "lack of athleticism" are just old men shouting at clouds.
D'Lo doesn't have ELITE athleticism but that doesn't mean he lacks it entirely.
Anybody still harping on that point or trying to downplay D'Lo numbers because the team only had 17 wins last year has a clear agenda. It goes beyond criticism when you actively ignore or downplay what's actually been happening. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Runway8
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 22841
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kinda glad we didn't win the summer league. They hated D'Lo for celebrating a buzzer beater. Imagine the kids celebrating the summer league title, and the hate and jokes that will ensue around here by these so-called "fans." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OregonLakerGuy wrote: | ^^^
Just quit while you are behind.  |
Sad thing is that like most guys with a lot of aggression and zero idea of what they are talking about, he thinks he's nailing it.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Worthy42
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 19952
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | Wait, Plaza used Chauncey Billups as an example of a guy who didn't improve much?!?!? Are you serious???
Chauncey Billups was considered a bust after a very inefficient 11/4 rookie year, and got traded halfway through his rookie year for peanuts. He eventually became a 4 time all-star, 3 time All-NBA selection, and a Finals MVP.
Yes, Chauncey Billups changed a lot from when he started. Holy crap. |
You are way too caught up in "efficency". I said players can become better shooters as they age. Billups shot the ball better. The rest of his game didn't really change at all from his rookie year. He was always a solid defender, and a solid decision making PG.
His rookie year his assists/turnover were 5.1/2.8. He averaged 1.7 steals a game. He shot 85% from the foul line.
Plus, he didn't start getting accolades for his play until he was around 4 other solid players. Billups was NEVER a guy to build a team around. Never. He was a solid pro. Never spectactular. And that is really how he started out his career as. Solid, not a good shooter, but got better.
But all the other parts of his game were there from the time he was a rookie. |
Good grief.
1) No, I'm not just "caught up in efficiency." Chauncey Billups was considered a bust for the first several years of his career, and his entire game improved as the years went on, and he was a MUCH better player in his prime than he was as a rookie.
2) Billups averaged 3.9apg (not 5.1), 2.2topg (not 2.9), and 1.3spg (not 1.7) his rookie year.
3) Spare me the idea that Billups only got good because he played with Hamilton, Prince, & the Wallace boys. He played with prime Kevin Garnett & Terrell Brandon before that and wasn't very good, but it was the Pistons who made him. Yeah, okay.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h231/massinfusion/Screen%20Shot%202016-07-18%20at%2011.29.15%20PM_zpsxefmkt8u.png
Basically the same guy, right?  |
Not to mention Billups played 2 seasons in college before coming to the NBA.
This is just sad. The mental gymnastics certain posters will do just to confirm their own bias.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Pretty crazy that some wanted to pick Buddy Hield at #2:
| Quote: | | Buddy Hield, New Orleans Pelicans -- The shooting numbers for the No. 6 pick in the 2016 draft were not great during his five games of summer. Buddy Hield led Las Vegas in shots per game at 19.6 but only made 32.7 percent of his shots and 22.9 percent of his 3-pointers. For a guy who was just looking like the best shooter in college basketball since Stephen Curry, that seems a little low on the efficiency. It doesn't necessarily mean he's doomed like Jimmer has been. It just means Alvin Gentry is probably unlikely to kick Anthony Davis to the curb in favor of a Buddy Hield-led offense this season. 2017-18 is up for grabs, though. |
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2016-las-vegas-summer-league-eye-on-basketball-awards/
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TDRock
Retired Number
Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 49069
Location: LA to the Bay
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Plaza234 wrote: | | TDRock wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Because Ive seen your posts and you constantly refuse to contextualize his age, the situation he was under in his first year, etc. you act as if he has 1-2 years to become who he is and that's that. |
That's my opinion on most players who lack athletic ability. They are who they are. People get way too carried away with what Steph Curry did thinking that any average joe can just become the most skilled player in the game and beat everyone thru pure skill. It simply does not happen. He's an anomaly. He's a freak in that way. Nobody like him before, nobody like him since.
Has Andre Miller really changed much from when he started? How about Chauncey Billups? Manu Ginobbili. These guys that aren't that athletic, don't really change up or improve their games. Maybe some become better shooters. But everything else - they are what they are.
Look at James Harden. His game really has not changed much other than more usage since starting in OKC. He's always had that big body that can, while not being very quick, can burrow past defenders off the dribble. He's always had that. In fact, he may have gotten less athletic now than when he came into the league.
There just is not that big development curve for non-athletic players. |
Ok but all those guys were All Stars at one point (actually not sure about Miller) and have had by all accounts successful careers. Why wouldn't D'Angelo be able to do the same? (You posted earlier he's not All Star material)
This is a real question. |
Ok here's a real answer:
Billups was a two way player from the beginning. Russel isn't. Billups didn't get accolades till he found a spot on a good team. His game really didn't change much whether he was playing on a good team or a bad team. He was who he was. The only major improvement he made in his game from the start of his career was 3 point shooting.
I'm not sure how Andre Miller ever made an All Star team to be honest.
Harden is better than Russell at everything.
Ginobilli was a two way player.
When you lack foot-speed at guard, you will almost certainly be a poor defender. When you lack explosion to go past your guy on offense, you are going to be left with a limited offensive game of long jump shots and pick n roll offense. People thinking Russell is the next Steph Curry or Steve Nash at running that PnR to create offense are projecting things that most likely will not happen. Curry and Nash are two of the most skilled players in the history of the NBA. Not only great shooters but great ball handlers.
How many PGs can't explode by their guy off the dribble? And if there are any, how many are very successful? I'm having trouble coming up with a name other than Miller, Billups, Payton. And at least Billups/Payton could always bring it on the D end even if their offense was limited.
PGs (who were at least considered Good or All Star Level Players) who lacked athletic explosion made up for it on the defensive end (Billups, Payton, Stockton) or were such highly skilled offensive players that their lack of defense didn't matter (Nash, Curry).
I can't think of any PGs who were bad defenders AND on offense could not blow by their guy that were considered good NBA players other than Nash/Curry. And if you expect Russell to be that, good for you. I don't. I don't expect any player to be the "next Curry or Nash". Those guys were unique in their own ways. |
Huh interesting. I don't know if I'm "you", but I don't have any preconceived expectations. I feel like I don't really know what he can entirely do due to the overall situation of the team last year. I feel like I have seen enough where I am over all more optimistic about his upside than you are, which is fine I don't come to the board to argue points back-and-forth I just was interested in understanding your perspective better. Ankywhoo thanks for responding.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anpherknee
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 16933
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| TDRock wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | | TDRock wrote: | | Plaza234 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Because Ive seen your posts and you constantly refuse to contextualize his age, the situation he was under in his first year, etc. you act as if he has 1-2 years to become who he is and that's that. |
That's my opinion on most players who lack athletic ability. They are who they are. People get way too carried away with what Steph Curry did thinking that any average joe can just become the most skilled player in the game and beat everyone thru pure skill. It simply does not happen. He's an anomaly. He's a freak in that way. Nobody like him before, nobody like him since.
Has Andre Miller really changed much from when he started? How about Chauncey Billups? Manu Ginobbili. These guys that aren't that athletic, don't really change up or improve their games. Maybe some become better shooters. But everything else - they are what they are.
Look at James Harden. His game really has not changed much other than more usage since starting in OKC. He's always had that big body that can, while not being very quick, can burrow past defenders off the dribble. He's always had that. In fact, he may have gotten less athletic now than when he came into the league.
There just is not that big development curve for non-athletic players. |
Ok but all those guys were All Stars at one point (actually not sure about Miller) and have had by all accounts successful careers. Why wouldn't D'Angelo be able to do the same? (You posted earlier he's not All Star material)
This is a real question. |
Ok here's a real answer:
Billups was a two way player from the beginning. Russel isn't. Billups didn't get accolades till he found a spot on a good team. His game really didn't change much whether he was playing on a good team or a bad team. He was who he was. The only major improvement he made in his game from the start of his career was 3 point shooting.
I'm not sure how Andre Miller ever made an All Star team to be honest.
Harden is better than Russell at everything.
Ginobilli was a two way player.
When you lack foot-speed at guard, you will almost certainly be a poor defender. When you lack explosion to go past your guy on offense, you are going to be left with a limited offensive game of long jump shots and pick n roll offense. People thinking Russell is the next Steph Curry or Steve Nash at running that PnR to create offense are projecting things that most likely will not happen. Curry and Nash are two of the most skilled players in the history of the NBA. Not only great shooters but great ball handlers.
How many PGs can't explode by their guy off the dribble? And if there are any, how many are very successful? I'm having trouble coming up with a name other than Miller, Billups, Payton. And at least Billups/Payton could always bring it on the D end even if their offense was limited.
PGs (who were at least considered Good or All Star Level Players) who lacked athletic explosion made up for it on the defensive end (Billups, Payton, Stockton) or were such highly skilled offensive players that their lack of defense didn't matter (Nash, Curry).
I can't think of any PGs who were bad defenders AND on offense could not blow by their guy that were considered good NBA players other than Nash/Curry. And if you expect Russell to be that, good for you. I don't. I don't expect any player to be the "next Curry or Nash". Those guys were unique in their own ways. |
Huh interesting. I don't know if I'm "you", but I don't have any preconceived expectations. I feel like I don't really know what he can entirely do due to the overall situation of the team last year. I feel like I have seen enough where I am over all more optimistic about his upside than you are, which is fine I don't come to the board to argue points back-and-forth I just was interested in understanding your perspective better. Ankywhoo thanks for responding. |
#ankywhoo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim99187
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2014
Posts: 22138
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I love whoever added Russell's stats in the thread name. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fastbreak32
Star Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 4746
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
I just love these convenient, all-or-none conceptualizations of players' athleticism, as though there aren't varying degrees of athleticism combined with technique, savvy, and other variables. Also, just the downright dismissals of what's actually happened.
As the season progressed, Dlo got to the rim, sometimes without a pick, and improved his ability to finish at the rim. I think his fg% at the rim was around league average, which is actually good for a 19/20 year old. Since then, he's seemed to improve on his speed, strength, and quickness to add to his ELITE length. But you know, most people already recognize that anyway. Others will continue to ignore it, instead of enjoy the growth of one of our youngsters.
_________________
LeBron, AD, & _________. Stay tuned.
"...there was a time when the Israelites were wandering in the desert and all of a sudden, bread came down from heaven,” Pelinka said. “That’s kind of what today feels like for us to have KCP join.” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think DLO's game will age very well too.
How many flash-in-the-pan-super-athletic-PGs-who-take-it-to-the-rack lost their athleticism by their late 20s?
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | I think DLO's game will age very well too.
How many flash-in-the-pan-super-athletic-PGs-who-take-it-to-the-rack lost their athleticism by their late 20s? |
FWIW, if you tried to watch Russell in the Summer League with fresh eyes, I don't know if the "unathletic" label would stick. That's not to say that he'd be considered a standout athlete or anything, I just don't think that his lack of athleticism would be noteworthy. He looked like a run-of-the-mill guard from that standpoint, IMO. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GoldenThroat wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | I think DLO's game will age very well too.
How many flash-in-the-pan-super-athletic-PGs-who-take-it-to-the-rack lost their athleticism by their late 20s? |
FWIW, if you tried to watch Russell in the Summer League with fresh eyes, I don't know if the "unathletic" label would stick. That's not to say that he'd be considered a standout athlete or anything, I just don't think that his lack of athleticism would be noteworthy. He looked like a run-of-the-mill guard from that standpoint, IMO. |
Yeah. I noticed the stronger burst to the rim and finishing. He also had a second gear off-the-dribble that he didn't have last year. Love what I'm seeing.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
I never agreed with the "unathletic" label, that is pretty much bull in my opinion.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
