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nevitt_smrek
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 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:35 pm Post subject: 1960 Draft |
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Let's assume today's draft rules were in play, and the Lakers held the #1 overall pick. As much as we love the Logo and how things turned out overall, how many think the Lakers probably would have selected Oscar instead if they had the chance?
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nevitt_smrek
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Would the combo of Oscar and Elgin been enough to push the Lakers to a title earlier?
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Legacy
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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legend825
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Big O. Very close though |
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1hu2ren3dui4
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think either of them would have been able to overcome the Celtics. Those teams were just so stacked. |
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OregonLakerGuy
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| It's easy to forget just how good West was. |
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1hu2ren3dui4
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I mean you gotta be in your 60s to have followed those guys. I see the highlights but I also see a monopoly on the Celtics teams. I guess if you had an owner who wanted a trophy team like red you could get it but the league wasn't the moneymaker it is now. |
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Legacy
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| nevitt_smrek wrote: | | Would the combo of Oscar and Elgin been enough to push the Lakers to a title earlier? |
With the way you worded this, you're technically not wrong. I'm just not sure the word "earlier" should have been included. West and Baylor never won a championship together. Even though the Lakers gave a ring to Baylor, he still never actively won a championship at all.
But I suppose Oscar and Elgin (and the Lakers) could have theoretically won a championship together earlier in their careers, before West/Baylor retired.
I still vote West though. |
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Even if that would have led to a championship it means no jerry west GM which means no shaq and kobe which means -5 championships
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| The problem the 60's Lakers had wasn't Baylor or West, it was the supporting cast. Oscar couldn't win with Lucas either. |
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Wino
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| nevitt_smrek wrote: | | Would the combo of Oscar and Elgin been enough to push the Lakers to a title earlier? |
West and Oscar had similar impacts and very close stats for most of their careers. They both had to finally get a great center in order to win a ring.
I don't think he would have been the difference, I think they just needed that one more great player to make it work.
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Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain |
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Chronicle wrote: | | Even if that would have led to a championship it means no jerry west GM which means no shaq and kobe which means -5 championships |
This. Plus we likely wouldn't have won as many championships in the 80s either.
Last edited by panamaniac on Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| 1hu2ren3dui4 wrote: | | I don't think either of them would have been able to overcome the Celtics. Those teams were just so stacked. |
At least one of them came down to a lucky, long last-second shot iirc. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| I consider West and the Big O to be real close in terms of talent and impact. Different games but both all-time all-star great players. I'd still go with West, but the tiebreaker is what he did after his basketball career. |
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FanOfFour
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| West. They were close in the regular season, but as a playoff performer he destroys Oscar. It's not even close, really. And think about if there was a 3-point shot back then. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| nevitt_smrek wrote: | | Would the combo of Oscar and Elgin been enough to push the Lakers to a title earlier? |
Probably not. Oscar was great, but so was West. It's not like we're swapping out Oscar for Gail Goodrich here. |
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oldlakerfan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:10 am Post subject: |
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West was great.
But it would have been interesting to see what were considered the 2 best all round players, and all time greats on the same team. Not sure if it changes the championships as Boston had 8 or 9 great players.
Imagine if they had a 3 point line back them. West was one of the best shooters of all time. |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I was in my early twenties when those players came out of school. I watched all of those guys for years.
West paired well with Baylor. Jerry was the better jump shooter, the quicker player, and the better defender than Oscar or Elgin. He was also willing to submit to Baylor's dominating personality. As such, he complemented Baylor's game and style awfully well.
Robertson as a potential Laker - without West - would have been more of a duplication of some of Baylor's traits and weaker areas. Both were marvelous passers and excellent rebounders for their size, but their defense would come and go, and neither shot the ball well from outside. Not sure about improvements to be had in seeing Oscar and Elgin having to play off the ball (when the other guy had it.)
Oscar's presence wouldn't address the weaker areas of the Laker squads. They failed to win a title through the best years of the Baylor-West tandem largely because they had a talent deficit (compared to the Celtics) at center, big forward and head coaching slots. |
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CabinCreek44
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:45 am Post subject: |
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The original question I believe was how many thought the Lakers might have taken Oscar if they had had the No. 1 pick in that draft...Jerry was my favorite player as a kid and made me a Lakers fan. But if I had to take a guess, if the Lakers had picked No. 1 in 1960, they probably would have taken Oscar.
Oscar was bigger, stronger and more dominant at that time than Jerry. I have huge respect for Oscar, but I think at the end of the day, Jerry was a better all-around player. But that's hindsight.
Would Oscar have made the Lakers a better shot to win a title in those days? I have to say no. Oscar's Cincinnati Royals were defeated by the Russell Celtics in all 3 of their playoff meetings in the 1960s. The Oscar Royals also missed the playoffs entirely three times during that decade.
I completely agree with the sentiments about Jerry's post-playing career and the contributions his decision-making made toward 10 NBA champions (Kobe being part of 4 championship teams after West left the Lakers, Shaq 2).
Oscar was the better player early in their careers, but I think Jerry usurped him as time went on. And also interesting to note they came into the league together (1960-61), and went out of the league together (1973-74).
Great post by 70sdude btw! |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I feel like you have to consider the race element back then. Is it possible the Lakers would've still drafted West just because he was Caucasian?
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| 70sdude wrote: | I was in my early twenties when those players came out of school. I watched all of those guys for years.
West paired well with Baylor. Jerry was the better jump shooter, the quicker player, and the better defender than Oscar or Elgin. He was also willing to submit to Baylor's dominating personality. As such, he complemented Baylor's game and style awfully well.
Robertson as a potential Laker - without West - would have been more of a duplication of some of Baylor's traits and weaker areas. Both were marvelous passers and excellent rebounders for their size, but their defense would come and go, and neither shot the ball well from outside. Not sure about improvements to be had in seeing Oscar and Elgin having to play off the ball (when the other guy had it.)
Oscar's presence wouldn't address the weaker areas of the Laker squads. They failed to win a title through the best years of the Baylor-West tandem largely because they had a talent deficit (compared to the Celtics) at center, big forward and head coaching slots. |
Thanks!
I never saw these guys, I have no idea how they play other than some footage (very little, a few minutes if anything). Are there any moments you recall or interesting situations where oscar destroys elgin, or anything like that? any example of someone delivering in a tough situation that you remember? i love those stories. |
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epak
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Couple of questions for the old timers:
1. Did Oscar dribble with both hands?
2. For those that dribbled predominantly with one hand, did the defenders try to shade them to the weak side? |
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nevitt_smrek
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the input and thoughts, particularly from those who experienced what the league was like 50 years ago. All of us are happy with the way things worked out with West. Without knowing how the future would unfold, and if presented with the opportunity, I think the Lakers might have selected Big O ahead of the Logo. Oscar was the higher rated prospect coming out of college. But that probably would have been a mistake in the whole scheme of things.
Was Oscar really just an average defender? I remember a quote from Oscar when asked if he could guard Jordan. He said, "I could guard anybody. Question is 'could he guard me?'" Naturally, he's going to endorse & talk up his own abilities.
I love posts from 70sDude. He provided great insights on Rudy LaRusso awhile back. It's great to learn about the history of the game from folks such as him.
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70sdude
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | 70sdude wrote: | I was in my early twenties when those players came out of school. I watched all of those guys for years.
West paired well with Baylor. Jerry was the better jump shooter, the quicker player, and the better defender than Oscar or Elgin. He was also willing to submit to Baylor's dominating personality. As such, he complemented Baylor's game and style awfully well.
Robertson as a potential Laker - without West - would have been more of a duplication of some of Baylor's traits and weaker areas. Both were marvelous passers and excellent rebounders for their size, but their defense would come and go, and neither shot the ball well from outside. Not sure about improvements to be had in seeing Oscar and Elgin having to play off the ball (when the other guy had it.)
Oscar's presence wouldn't address the weaker areas of the Laker squads. They failed to win a title through the best years of the Baylor-West tandem largely because they had a talent deficit (compared to the Celtics) at center, big forward and head coaching slots. |
Thanks!
I never saw these guys, I have no idea how they play other than some footage (very little, a few minutes if anything). Are there any moments you recall or interesting situations where oscar destroys elgin, or anything like that? any example of someone delivering in a tough situation that you remember? i love those stories. |
Elgin and Oscar rarely guarded each other, so nothing in terms of player on player stuff comes to mind. Elgin was a stupendously good rebounder, even amongst the trees: one big hand on one long arm going way up there to snatch the ball in a crowd.
Oscar could dribble with each hand but he didn't use the left to drive. The difference in ball-handling rules then disallowed anything like what we see today in most players. A cross-over or even the palming, carrying along, or pausing with the ball spinning in hand wss a violation, hence no one did it. With the advent of the ABA style of officiating and the ABA-NBA merger, the actual officiating of the dribble changed with every decade or so since, making moves possible that were illegal just 15 years before. |
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70sdude
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| nevitt_smrek wrote: | Thanks for all the input and thoughts, particularly from those who experienced what the league was like 50 years ago. All of us are happy with the way things worked out with West. Without knowing how the future would unfold, and if presented with the opportunity, I think the Lakers might have selected Big O ahead of the Logo. Oscar was the higher rated prospect coming out of college. But that probably would have been a mistake in the whole scheme of things.
Was Oscar really just an average defender? I remember a quote from Oscar when asked if he could guard Jordan. He said, "I could guard anybody. Question is 'could he guard me?'" Naturally, he's going to endorse & talk up his own abilities.
I love posts from 70sDude. He provided great insights on Rudy LaRusso awhile back. It's great to learn about the history of the game from folks such as him. |
When pushed emotionally or focused for a playoff push, Oscar could pretty much do whatever he wanted to most players under 6'7", so there's that going for him. Very confident player. I think of his excellence not unlike that of Duncan's for their positional excellence: timing, awareness, footwork, length and strength making up for a lack of cutting edge speed.
I'd love to have been able to see O and MJ in their primes suit up against each other. Ahhh, dreams. |
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