|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Reports being released that the Hispanic Officer that shot the caregiver was actually aiming for the Autistic guy since he thought:
"The White guy was about to shoot the black guy"
| Quote: | The Miami-Dade Police Union president said Thursday afternoon that Kinsey did everything right and that the North Miami Police officer was aiming for the patient out of fear that he had a gun and was planning to hurt Kinsey.
“The movement of the white individual looked like he was getting ready to charge a firearm into Mr. Kinsey,” said John Rivera, president of the Miami-Dade County Police Benevolent Association, “and the officer discharged, trying to strike and stop the white male, and unfortunately, he missed.”
Rivera released a statement from the officer that said in part: “I took this job to save lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that and hate to hear others paint me as something I’m not.”
“This is a case where a police officer was trying to save Mr. Kinsey’s life, and unfortunately, his shot went astray,” Rivera said.
Rivera also said his thoughts and prayers are with Kinsey.
Many people in the community still have questions about why the officer pulled the trigger. |
Officer Accidentally Shot the Man he was trying to save?
Strangely enough, the officers story seems believable. Although obviously it would have been a mistake to shoot the Autistic guy as well. But based upon the "probable Cause" threshhold that these officers are operating under, he'd be justified. That threshhold for use of lethal force NEEDS to change.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67625
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | audioaxes wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | Raijin wrote: | I see a solution.
1). A special federal prosecutor handles all police officer involved assault/murder of citizens. The cases are handled by a federal judge in a district far from the matter. |
Yes, augmented by uniform Use of Force Standards that value the protection of citizen lives above all else and where the use of lethal force is raised from the current "probably cause" standard to "beyond a reasonable doubt".
| Raijin wrote: |
2) Break their union. Make police officers individually responsible for their own legal defense. |
No. All public sector employees deserve the benefits Unions offer. |
well the unions are giving them way too much benefits and protections. They are already grossly overpaid (Just check out Transparent California and see how many cops are pulling in over 150K) with pensions someone in the private sector with comparable salary couldnt even dream of reaching in retirement. So they dont also need to have bullet proof impunity where its nearly impossible to fire them outside of murder and even harder to actually get a conviction of crimes committed while behind a badge. |
Officers behaviours will ONLY change when the Rules of Engagement governing their behaviour are properly adjusted. I'm quite ok with good cops receiving excellent pay for what can be a crappy job. I just don't believe crushing unions is the route to take. That's the back end of things. I think things need to be attacked from the front end - and that's a basic change in the rules of engagement which moves the threshold for the use of force in line with the majority of the rest of the civilised world. As long as officers are operating from the threshold of "Probable Cause" is all that's necessary to administer lethal force - then cops will continue shooting people and getting away with it. No decrease in union benefits is going to change that. That's why it has to be attacked from the front instead of the rear. |
Let the church say Amen.
I watched the GOP convention and was embarrassed by the preacher supporting Trump.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OregonLakerGuy
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 13207
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What follows is simply my opinion and I am open to other ideas.
Guess we are just lucky that the officer was a crap shot. Honestly, there needs to be a rethink of how police are trained and the rules of engagement in a civilian population. I know some people are only starting to think of this problem, but it has been brewing for a long time. Although bias plays a role and deserves attention, I think the core issue is one of policy. In what world is it okay to execute someone for a broken taillight? In what world is it okay to assassinate someone in their bed with a no-knock warrant because of an anonymous tip that someone was cooking meth at that address? The problem is systemic and pervasive. This is an area where I think some kind of national standards could be useful and I almost never say that.
One caveat that I urge everyone to consider is that LG and the majority of the people in this country think like city folks. I spent my first 36+ years in the LA area and things in rural areas are very, very different. So when thinking of rules for cops and gun laws in general, keep in mind that the some of the more remote people out here can be a long time waiting for any official help. Even in town like where I live, It may be a while because there are few police. The officer who responds in a rural area may also be a long time without any backup. They may face an armed burglar, a meth'd out crazy person, or an angry bear.
The criminal justice system played a big part in my path to libertarianism. While I sympathize with the cops on the front lines who have to confront dangers that we do not, I think we are asking them to do too much. We as a society need to determine if it is worthwhile to take the life of a human being because of expired tags or a broken taillight.
My bottom line suggestions are to stop the insane war on drugs and stop using police as revenue generating machines. Congress should create a national standard for police conduct and body and dash cameras should be mandatory. Just my two cents worth.
Don't even get me started on what happens after the arrest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | Reports being released that the Hispanic Officer that shot the caregiver was actually aiming for the Autistic guy since he thought:
"The White guy was about to shoot the black guy"
| Quote: | The Miami-Dade Police Union president said Thursday afternoon that Kinsey did everything right and that the North Miami Police officer was aiming for the patient out of fear that he had a gun and was planning to hurt Kinsey.
“The movement of the white individual looked like he was getting ready to charge a firearm into Mr. Kinsey,” said John Rivera, president of the Miami-Dade County Police Benevolent Association, “and the officer discharged, trying to strike and stop the white male, and unfortunately, he missed.”
Rivera released a statement from the officer that said in part: “I took this job to save lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that and hate to hear others paint me as something I’m not.”
“This is a case where a police officer was trying to save Mr. Kinsey’s life, and unfortunately, his shot went astray,” Rivera said.
Rivera also said his thoughts and prayers are with Kinsey.
Many people in the community still have questions about why the officer pulled the trigger. |
Officer Accidentally Shot the Man he was trying to save?
Strangely enough, the officers story seems believable. Although obviously it would have been a mistake to shoot the Autistic guy as well. But based upon the "probable Cause" threshhold that these officers are operating under, he'd be justified. That threshhold for use of lethal force NEEDS to change. |
Not at all. Unless the Miami PD has the absolute worst firearms training and qualification in the world, there's no way he missed that badly. And if he did, he should be off the streets immediately because he has no business carrying a gun, much less shooting one.
But I commend their Union for thinking on their feet and coming up with "Oh he meant to shoot the white guy this time".
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jonnybravo
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30680
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| OregonLakerGuy wrote: | What follows is simply my opinion and I am open to other ideas.
Guess we are just lucky that the officer was a crap shot. Honestly, there needs to be a rethink of how police are trained and the rules of engagement in a civilian population. I know some people are only starting to think of this problem, but it has been brewing for a long time. Although bias plays a role and deserves attention, I think the core issue is one of policy. In what world is it okay to execute someone for a broken taillight? In what world is it okay to assassinate someone in their bed with a no-knock warrant because of an anonymous tip that someone was cooking meth at that address? The problem is systemic and pervasive. This is an area where I think some kind of national standards could be useful and I almost never say that.
One caveat that I urge everyone to consider is that LG and the majority of the people in this country think like city folks. I spent my first 36+ years in the LA area and things in rural areas are very, very different. So when thinking of rules for cops and gun laws in general, keep in mind that the some of the more remote people out here can be a long time waiting for any official help. Even in town like where I live, It may be a while because there are few police. The officer who responds in a rural area may also be a long time without any backup. They may face an armed burglar, a meth'd out crazy person, or an angry bear.
The criminal justice system played a big part in my path to libertarianism. While I sympathize with the cops on the front lines who have to confront dangers that we do not, I think we are asking them to do too much. We as a society need to determine if it is worthwhile to take the life of a human being because of expired tags or a broken taillight.
My bottom line suggestions are to stop the insane war on drugs and stop using police as revenue generating machines. Congress should create a national standard for police conduct and body and dash cameras should be mandatory. Just my two cents worth.
Don't even get me started on what happens after the arrest. |
I want this too and to me is by far the biggest issue in this country. in both it's direct impact and it's tangential consequences. Unfortunately I think this is next to impossible. No politician would dare stand in the way of the Prison/Industrial complex. Any vote in that direction would be chewed up by the opposition as being "soft on crime". I don't think any politician out there would be able to survive that sort of campaign. It sucks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | Reports being released that the Hispanic Officer that shot the caregiver was actually aiming for the Autistic guy since he thought:
"The White guy was about to shoot the black guy"
| Quote: | The Miami-Dade Police Union president said Thursday afternoon that Kinsey did everything right and that the North Miami Police officer was aiming for the patient out of fear that he had a gun and was planning to hurt Kinsey.
“The movement of the white individual looked like he was getting ready to charge a firearm into Mr. Kinsey,” said John Rivera, president of the Miami-Dade County Police Benevolent Association, “and the officer discharged, trying to strike and stop the white male, and unfortunately, he missed.”
Rivera released a statement from the officer that said in part: “I took this job to save lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that and hate to hear others paint me as something I’m not.”
“This is a case where a police officer was trying to save Mr. Kinsey’s life, and unfortunately, his shot went astray,” Rivera said.
Rivera also said his thoughts and prayers are with Kinsey.
Many people in the community still have questions about why the officer pulled the trigger. |
Officer Accidentally Shot the Man he was trying to save?
Strangely enough, the officers story seems believable. Although obviously it would have been a mistake to shoot the Autistic guy as well. But based upon the "probable Cause" threshhold that these officers are operating under, he'd be justified. That threshhold for use of lethal force NEEDS to change. |
You might want to consider that after trying to save him from the autistic guy, and accidentally shooting him 3 times instead, he then cuffed the guy he "accidentally" shot. If he accidentally shot the guy he thought he was trying to save, why would he then slap the cuffs on him?
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | Reports being released that the Hispanic Officer that shot the caregiver was actually aiming for the Autistic guy since he thought:
"The White guy was about to shoot the black guy"
| Quote: | The Miami-Dade Police Union president said Thursday afternoon that Kinsey did everything right and that the North Miami Police officer was aiming for the patient out of fear that he had a gun and was planning to hurt Kinsey.
“The movement of the white individual looked like he was getting ready to charge a firearm into Mr. Kinsey,” said John Rivera, president of the Miami-Dade County Police Benevolent Association, “and the officer discharged, trying to strike and stop the white male, and unfortunately, he missed.”
Rivera released a statement from the officer that said in part: “I took this job to save lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that and hate to hear others paint me as something I’m not.”
“This is a case where a police officer was trying to save Mr. Kinsey’s life, and unfortunately, his shot went astray,” Rivera said.
Rivera also said his thoughts and prayers are with Kinsey.
Many people in the community still have questions about why the officer pulled the trigger. |
Officer Accidentally Shot the Man he was trying to save?
Strangely enough, the officers story seems believable. Although obviously it would have been a mistake to shoot the Autistic guy as well. But based upon the "probable Cause" threshhold that these officers are operating under, he'd be justified. That threshhold for use of lethal force NEEDS to change. |
You might want to consider that after trying to save him from the autistic guy, and accidentally shooting him 3 times instead, he then cuffed the guy he "accidentally" shot. If he accidentally shot the guy he thought he was trying to save, why would he then slap the cuffs on him? |
In a common sense world, I agree with you. Knowing how Police are currently trained? He did everything according to his training. Obviously, we need to change that training. But currently, due to the outsized emphasis on officer safety, even at the expense of citizen safety, Officers are trained to complete their "arrest procedures" before moving to a "caregiver" platform. Again, that's just their training, and disgusting as I think that training is - I can't fault an officer for doing what he's been taught to do.
The thing I find confounding in this case is the genuine shock in the community. Almost everyone commenting from the community can't believe what they've heard happened because it's not reflective of their experience with North Miami Police. It's a 60% African American community that actually has very good relations with their Police and they are shocked that their Police could do something like this. That sentiment from the community itself usually isn't the case in these cases of alledged misconduct. That's what's really moving my estimations here. This one just smells differently than many of the others. Obviously I could be wrong in my estimations, but for some reason I'm having a hard time reconciling what appears to be genuine shock pouring out of that community. It could still end up being some ill intent, but I'm not really feeling it at this juncture.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | Reports being released that the Hispanic Officer that shot the caregiver was actually aiming for the Autistic guy since he thought:
"The White guy was about to shoot the black guy"
| Quote: | The Miami-Dade Police Union president said Thursday afternoon that Kinsey did everything right and that the North Miami Police officer was aiming for the patient out of fear that he had a gun and was planning to hurt Kinsey.
“The movement of the white individual looked like he was getting ready to charge a firearm into Mr. Kinsey,” said John Rivera, president of the Miami-Dade County Police Benevolent Association, “and the officer discharged, trying to strike and stop the white male, and unfortunately, he missed.”
Rivera released a statement from the officer that said in part: “I took this job to save lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that and hate to hear others paint me as something I’m not.”
“This is a case where a police officer was trying to save Mr. Kinsey’s life, and unfortunately, his shot went astray,” Rivera said.
Rivera also said his thoughts and prayers are with Kinsey.
Many people in the community still have questions about why the officer pulled the trigger. |
Officer Accidentally Shot the Man he was trying to save?
Strangely enough, the officers story seems believable. Although obviously it would have been a mistake to shoot the Autistic guy as well. But based upon the "probable Cause" threshhold that these officers are operating under, he'd be justified. That threshhold for use of lethal force NEEDS to change. |
You might want to consider that after trying to save him from the autistic guy, and accidentally shooting him 3 times instead, he then cuffed the guy he "accidentally" shot. If he accidentally shot the guy he thought he was trying to save, why would he then slap the cuffs on him? |
In a common sense world, I agree with you. Knowing how Police are currently trained? He did everything according to his training. Obviously, we need to change that training. But currently, due to the outsized emphasis on officer safety, even at the expense of citizen safety, Officers are trained to complete their "arrest procedures" before moving to a "caregiver" platform. Again, that's just their training, and disgusting as I think that training is - I can't fault an officer for doing what he's been taught to do.
The thing I find confounding in this case is the genuine shock in the community. Almost everyone commenting from the community can't believe what they've heard happened because it's not reflective of their experience with North Miami Police. It's a 60% African American community that actually has very good relations with their Police and they are shocked that their Police could do something like this. That sentiment from the community itself usually isn't the case in these cases of alledged misconduct. That's what's really moving my estimations here. This one just smells differently than many of the others. Obviously I could be wrong in my estimations, but for some reason I'm having a hard time reconciling what appears to be genuine shock pouring out of that community. It could still end up being some ill intent, but I'm not really feeling it at this juncture. |
That's incorrect. It is police procedure to cuff a suspect after you shoot him or her. It is not procedure to cuff someone you thought you were rescuing and accidentally shot. It's a clear tell that his story is complete horse (bleep). If his story was true he would have cuffed the autistic guy and tried to render aid to the accidentally shot victim.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24165
Location: Boston
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jonnybravo wrote: | | OregonLakerGuy wrote: | What follows is simply my opinion and I am open to other ideas.
Guess we are just lucky that the officer was a crap shot. Honestly, there needs to be a rethink of how police are trained and the rules of engagement in a civilian population. I know some people are only starting to think of this problem, but it has been brewing for a long time. Although bias plays a role and deserves attention, I think the core issue is one of policy. In what world is it okay to execute someone for a broken taillight? In what world is it okay to assassinate someone in their bed with a no-knock warrant because of an anonymous tip that someone was cooking meth at that address? The problem is systemic and pervasive. This is an area where I think some kind of national standards could be useful and I almost never say that.
One caveat that I urge everyone to consider is that LG and the majority of the people in this country think like city folks. I spent my first 36+ years in the LA area and things in rural areas are very, very different. So when thinking of rules for cops and gun laws in general, keep in mind that the some of the more remote people out here can be a long time waiting for any official help. Even in town like where I live, It may be a while because there are few police. The officer who responds in a rural area may also be a long time without any backup. They may face an armed burglar, a meth'd out crazy person, or an angry bear.
The criminal justice system played a big part in my path to libertarianism. While I sympathize with the cops on the front lines who have to confront dangers that we do not, I think we are asking them to do too much. We as a society need to determine if it is worthwhile to take the life of a human being because of expired tags or a broken taillight.
My bottom line suggestions are to stop the insane war on drugs and stop using police as revenue generating machines. Congress should create a national standard for police conduct and body and dash cameras should be mandatory. Just my two cents worth.
Don't even get me started on what happens after the arrest. |
I want this too and to me is by far the biggest issue in this country. in both it's direct impact and it's tangential consequences. Unfortunately I think this is next to impossible. No politician would dare stand in the way of the Prison/Industrial complex. Any vote in that direction would be chewed up by the opposition as being "soft on crime". I don't think any politician out there would be able to survive that sort of campaign. It sucks. |
Hillary Clinton has prioritized a plan to address criminal justice system reform and law enforcement training and accountability:
Criminal justice reform
Edit: I temporarily forgot I was in the "shooting" thread and not the "political" so if someone objects, I'll move it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jonnybravo
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30680
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChefLinda wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | OregonLakerGuy wrote: | What follows is simply my opinion and I am open to other ideas.
Guess we are just lucky that the officer was a crap shot. Honestly, there needs to be a rethink of how police are trained and the rules of engagement in a civilian population. I know some people are only starting to think of this problem, but it has been brewing for a long time. Although bias plays a role and deserves attention, I think the core issue is one of policy. In what world is it okay to execute someone for a broken taillight? In what world is it okay to assassinate someone in their bed with a no-knock warrant because of an anonymous tip that someone was cooking meth at that address? The problem is systemic and pervasive. This is an area where I think some kind of national standards could be useful and I almost never say that.
One caveat that I urge everyone to consider is that LG and the majority of the people in this country think like city folks. I spent my first 36+ years in the LA area and things in rural areas are very, very different. So when thinking of rules for cops and gun laws in general, keep in mind that the some of the more remote people out here can be a long time waiting for any official help. Even in town like where I live, It may be a while because there are few police. The officer who responds in a rural area may also be a long time without any backup. They may face an armed burglar, a meth'd out crazy person, or an angry bear.
The criminal justice system played a big part in my path to libertarianism. While I sympathize with the cops on the front lines who have to confront dangers that we do not, I think we are asking them to do too much. We as a society need to determine if it is worthwhile to take the life of a human being because of expired tags or a broken taillight.
My bottom line suggestions are to stop the insane war on drugs and stop using police as revenue generating machines. Congress should create a national standard for police conduct and body and dash cameras should be mandatory. Just my two cents worth.
Don't even get me started on what happens after the arrest. |
I want this too and to me is by far the biggest issue in this country. in both it's direct impact and it's tangential consequences. Unfortunately I think this is next to impossible. No politician would dare stand in the way of the Prison/Industrial complex. Any vote in that direction would be chewed up by the opposition as being "soft on crime". I don't think any politician out there would be able to survive that sort of campaign. It sucks. |
Hillary Clinton has prioritized a plan to address criminal justice system reform and law enforcement training and accountability:
Criminal justice reform
Edit: I temporarily forgot I was in the "shooting" thread and not the "political" so if someone objects, I'll move it. |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IPK
Star Player
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 6859
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | Reports being released that the Hispanic Officer that shot the caregiver was actually aiming for the Autistic guy since he thought:
"The White guy was about to shoot the black guy"
| Quote: | The Miami-Dade Police Union president said Thursday afternoon that Kinsey did everything right and that the North Miami Police officer was aiming for the patient out of fear that he had a gun and was planning to hurt Kinsey.
“The movement of the white individual looked like he was getting ready to charge a firearm into Mr. Kinsey,” said John Rivera, president of the Miami-Dade County Police Benevolent Association, “and the officer discharged, trying to strike and stop the white male, and unfortunately, he missed.”
Rivera released a statement from the officer that said in part: “I took this job to save lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that and hate to hear others paint me as something I’m not.”
“This is a case where a police officer was trying to save Mr. Kinsey’s life, and unfortunately, his shot went astray,” Rivera said.
Rivera also said his thoughts and prayers are with Kinsey.
Many people in the community still have questions about why the officer pulled the trigger. |
Officer Accidentally Shot the Man he was trying to save?
Strangely enough, the officers story seems believable. Although obviously it would have been a mistake to shoot the Autistic guy as well. But based upon the "probable Cause" threshhold that these officers are operating under, he'd be justified. That threshhold for use of lethal force NEEDS to change. |
You might want to consider that after trying to save him from the autistic guy, and accidentally shooting him 3 times instead, he then cuffed the guy he "accidentally" shot. If he accidentally shot the guy he thought he was trying to save, why would he then slap the cuffs on him? |
In a common sense world, I agree with you. Knowing how Police are currently trained? He did everything according to his training. Obviously, we need to change that training. But currently, due to the outsized emphasis on officer safety, even at the expense of citizen safety, Officers are trained to complete their "arrest procedures" before moving to a "caregiver" platform. Again, that's just their training, and disgusting as I think that training is - I can't fault an officer for doing what he's been taught to do.
The thing I find confounding in this case is the genuine shock in the community. Almost everyone commenting from the community can't believe what they've heard happened because it's not reflective of their experience with North Miami Police. It's a 60% African American community that actually has very good relations with their Police and they are shocked that their Police could do something like this. That sentiment from the community itself usually isn't the case in these cases of alledged misconduct. That's what's really moving my estimations here. This one just smells differently than many of the others. Obviously I could be wrong in my estimations, but for some reason I'm having a hard time reconciling what appears to be genuine shock pouring out of that community. It could still end up being some ill intent, but I'm not really feeling it at this juncture. |
That's incorrect. It is police procedure to cuff a suspect after you shoot him or her. It is not procedure to cuff someone you thought you were rescuing and accidentally shot. It's a clear tell that his story is complete horse (bleep). If his story was true he would have cuffed the autistic guy and tried to render aid to the accidentally shot victim. |
Thank you, Mr. Little.
| Quote: | Lays on the ground.
Puts his hands in the air.
Explains he's a therapist helping a patient.
Still gets shot.
(Then arrested.) |
_________________
Our tribute to Phil, the man behind LG |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jonnybravo wrote: | | OregonLakerGuy wrote: | What follows is simply my opinion and I am open to other ideas.
Guess we are just lucky that the officer was a crap shot. Honestly, there needs to be a rethink of how police are trained and the rules of engagement in a civilian population. I know some people are only starting to think of this problem, but it has been brewing for a long time. Although bias plays a role and deserves attention, I think the core issue is one of policy. In what world is it okay to execute someone for a broken taillight? In what world is it okay to assassinate someone in their bed with a no-knock warrant because of an anonymous tip that someone was cooking meth at that address? The problem is systemic and pervasive. This is an area where I think some kind of national standards could be useful and I almost never say that.
One caveat that I urge everyone to consider is that LG and the majority of the people in this country think like city folks. I spent my first 36+ years in the LA area and things in rural areas are very, very different. So when thinking of rules for cops and gun laws in general, keep in mind that the some of the more remote people out here can be a long time waiting for any official help. Even in town like where I live, It may be a while because there are few police. The officer who responds in a rural area may also be a long time without any backup. They may face an armed burglar, a meth'd out crazy person, or an angry bear.
The criminal justice system played a big part in my path to libertarianism. While I sympathize with the cops on the front lines who have to confront dangers that we do not, I think we are asking them to do too much. We as a society need to determine if it is worthwhile to take the life of a human being because of expired tags or a broken taillight.
My bottom line suggestions are to stop the insane war on drugs and stop using police as revenue generating machines. Congress should create a national standard for police conduct and body and dash cameras should be mandatory. Just my two cents worth.
Don't even get me started on what happens after the arrest. |
I want this too and to me is by far the biggest issue in this country. in both it's direct impact and it's tangential consequences. Unfortunately I think this is next to impossible. No politician would dare stand in the way of the Prison/Industrial complex. Any vote in that direction would be chewed up by the opposition as being "soft on crime". I don't think any politician out there would be able to survive that sort of campaign. It sucks. |
But we will never see it, the machine has to be fed. The public has the power to somewhat control the purses strings so our ever-growing governments need new sources of revenue. Ventura is putting a new sales tax measure on the ballot for infrastructure upgrades (they have spent the previous revenue for infrastructure upgrades in other areas) for the third time, and it will be voted down again. I guess that means more stop light cameras.
As for politicians getting in the way of the prison industrial complex, we know that one big player in the private prison movement are the Koch brothers. We know how many pockets they line.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakerjoshua
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 11277
Location: Bay Area
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've got a lot of friends from the Military who I didn't trust standing behind me with a loaded weapon who have since become police officers because it's an easy job to get for ex military.
My first impression in Army boot camp was "wow there's really the bottom of the barrel here". They taught us to kill, to be aggressive then sent us to a foreign country to kill without recourse..
They come home, dumb killers acclimated to violence....and we make them our police.
Is it really their fault they don't have the social skills to recognize mentally ill from enemy combatants? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CBaller8
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2002
Posts: 14876
Location: Reseda, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| This is one of the many reasons why cops have been getting taken out. What goes around comes around. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
doughboy90650
Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 15294
Location: Southern California
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dude shoulda had a gun to defend himse..........
Wait
Never mind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Qsmiff
Star Player
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 3242
Location: Mid-Wilshire: just beyond "The Puff Puff Pass"
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just when I thought the footage from the first shooting in Baton Rouge..(BOOM! BOOM!BOOM! BOOM!.....GET ON THE GROUND!!!)...now this guy says....I didn't mean to shoot the Black guy....I was trying to shoot the autistic guy.....WOW OH WOW!!.....and we're doing well  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
2nd Officer placed on unpaid leave. Shooter identified as:
Jonathan Aledda, a SWAT team member and four-year veteran of the department who had been singled out in the past for his tenacity and police work.
| Quote: | Authorities in North Miami, Fla., said Friday that they had placed a second police officer on leave as part of the investigation into a police shooting there earlier this week in which an officer shot and wounded an unarmed man.
The second officer was placed on unpaid administrative leave because of “conflicting statements given to the investigators” looking into the shooting, Larry M. Spring Jr., the North Miami city manager, said at a news conference.
The shooting Monday captured widespread attention after footage emerged showing the moments before the incident. In this video, Charles Kinsey, the man who was shot and wounded, is seen lying on the ground with his hands in the air and yelling to police that a man seated near him — a man with autism whom Kinsey cared for, it later emerged — was holding only a toy truck and not a weapon.
The officer who fired three rounds, striking Kinsey once in the leg, was identified Friday as Jonathan Aledda, a SWAT team member and four-year veteran of the department who had been singled out in the past for his tenacity and police work. Aledda has been placed on leave because of the shooting.
Spring said that Cmdr. Emile Hollant was placed on leave due to “evidence of conflicting statements” he gave to investigators. He declined to elaborate on what Hollant said. |
Shooter Identified. 2nd Officer on Leave
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VTECkilla
Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 4911
Location: Anaheim
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| CBaller8 wrote: | | This is one of the many reasons why cops have been getting taken out. What goes around comes around. |
Zzz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The second officer that was put on unpaid leave was due to his being caught in a lie. He was the one who said that a gun was present, then he later tried to tell investigators that he wasn't even on the scene, even though his voice is on dispatch tapes identifying that a gun was present.
Second pertinent fact, the shooter shot from a range of about 100 feet with a rifle.
| Quote: |
Sources told Local 10 News that Hollant was the voice on the radio telling dispatch and other officers that someone had a gun. They said he then lied to investigators, telling them he wasn't even at the scene when the shooting happened.
Miami officials made it clear that the city will not stand behind an officer who they believed lied or fabricated evidence in the case.
| Quote: |
"An officer who betrays the trust of any residents of any community must be shamed, removed, fired and of course completely, completely lose the right to ever wear an officers' uniform again," North MIami |
Police said they were called to the area about a man who was walking around with a gun and threatening to commit suicide.
| Quote: | Local 10 News reporter Amy Viteri spoke to Sivano Hernandez, who recorded the incident.
"Before police even showed up he laid down with his hands up," Hernandez said.
Hernandez said Kinsey was being submissive and trying to calm down his autistic client, who was holding the toy truck.
"Everybody at this point thought that the little toy train was actually a gun because it looked silver and shiny," Hernandez said.
In the video, Kinsey is heard telling officers that he is unarmed, but Hernandez said Kinsey was not shot by the officers seen in the video, but by one of two officers who took cover more than 100 feet away behind a car.
"Do you think he could have heard what Mr. Kinsey was saying at the time when he was shouting?" Viteri asked.
"I'm very sure that there was no possible way that you could hear from that distance," Hernandez said
|
|
Shot from 100 feet away
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | Reports being released that the Hispanic Officer that shot the caregiver was actually aiming for the Autistic guy since he thought:
"The White guy was about to shoot the black guy"
| Quote: | The Miami-Dade Police Union president said Thursday afternoon that Kinsey did everything right and that the North Miami Police officer was aiming for the patient out of fear that he had a gun and was planning to hurt Kinsey.
“The movement of the white individual looked like he was getting ready to charge a firearm into Mr. Kinsey,” said John Rivera, president of the Miami-Dade County Police Benevolent Association, “and the officer discharged, trying to strike and stop the white male, and unfortunately, he missed.”
Rivera released a statement from the officer that said in part: “I took this job to save lives and help people. I did what I had to do in a split second to accomplish that and hate to hear others paint me as something I’m not.”
“This is a case where a police officer was trying to save Mr. Kinsey’s life, and unfortunately, his shot went astray,” Rivera said.
Rivera also said his thoughts and prayers are with Kinsey.
Many people in the community still have questions about why the officer pulled the trigger. |
Officer Accidentally Shot the Man he was trying to save?
Strangely enough, the officers story seems believable. Although obviously it would have been a mistake to shoot the Autistic guy as well. But based upon the "probable Cause" threshhold that these officers are operating under, he'd be justified. That threshhold for use of lethal force NEEDS to change. |
You might want to consider that after trying to save him from the autistic guy, and accidentally shooting him 3 times instead, he then cuffed the guy he "accidentally" shot. If he accidentally shot the guy he thought he was trying to save, why would he then slap the cuffs on him? |
In a common sense world, I agree with you. Knowing how Police are currently trained? He did everything according to his training. Obviously, we need to change that training. But currently, due to the outsized emphasis on officer safety, even at the expense of citizen safety, Officers are trained to complete their "arrest procedures" before moving to a "caregiver" platform. Again, that's just their training, and disgusting as I think that training is - I can't fault an officer for doing what he's been taught to do.
The thing I find confounding in this case is the genuine shock in the community. Almost everyone commenting from the community can't believe what they've heard happened because it's not reflective of their experience with North Miami Police. It's a 60% African American community that actually has very good relations with their Police and they are shocked that their Police could do something like this. That sentiment from the community itself usually isn't the case in these cases of alledged misconduct. That's what's really moving my estimations here. This one just smells differently than many of the others. Obviously I could be wrong in my estimations, but for some reason I'm having a hard time reconciling what appears to be genuine shock pouring out of that community. It could still end up being some ill intent, but I'm not really feeling it at this juncture. |
That's incorrect. It is police procedure to cuff a suspect after you shoot him or her. It is not procedure to cuff someone you thought you were rescuing and accidentally shot. It's a clear tell that his story is complete horse (bleep). If his story was true he would have cuffed the autistic guy and tried to render aid to the accidentally shot victim. |
Yep. It's pretty clearly an after the fact attempt at a cover story. I also don't believe the cop would miss the autistic son badly, yet manage to coincidentally hit the other guy.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: | The second officer that was put on unpaid leave was due to his being caught in a lie. He was the one who said that a gun was present, then he later tried to tell investigators that he wasn't even on the scene, even though his voice is on dispatch tapes identifying that a gun was present.
Second pertinent fact, the shooter shot from a range of about 100 feet with a rifle.
| Quote: |
Sources told Local 10 News that Hollant was the voice on the radio telling dispatch and other officers that someone had a gun. They said he then lied to investigators, telling them he wasn't even at the scene when the shooting happened.
Miami officials made it clear that the city will not stand behind an officer who they believed lied or fabricated evidence in the case.
| Quote: |
"An officer who betrays the trust of any residents of any community must be shamed, removed, fired and of course completely, completely lose the right to ever wear an officers' uniform again," North MIami |
Police said they were called to the area about a man who was walking around with a gun and threatening to commit suicide.
| Quote: | Local 10 News reporter Amy Viteri spoke to Sivano Hernandez, who recorded the incident.
"Before police even showed up he laid down with his hands up," Hernandez said.
Hernandez said Kinsey was being submissive and trying to calm down his autistic client, who was holding the toy truck.
"Everybody at this point thought that the little toy train was actually a gun because it looked silver and shiny," Hernandez said.
In the video, Kinsey is heard telling officers that he is unarmed, but Hernandez said Kinsey was not shot by the officers seen in the video, but by one of two officers who took cover more than 100 feet away behind a car.
"Do you think he could have heard what Mr. Kinsey was saying at the time when he was shouting?" Viteri asked.
"I'm very sure that there was no possible way that you could hear from that distance," Hernandez said
|
|
Shot from 100 feet away |
These guys are horrible liars and truly bad at formulating excuses. So an alleged SWAT officer with a rifle that was likely scoped is taking a shot from a 100 feet away without any communication with the officers or getting a clearance to shoot. And this trained SWAT officer misses his target? Like by a lot . . . so his shots completely miss his intended target, yet somehow they manage to hit the guy he didn't mean to shoot - who just happened to be the black guy and not the white guy.
There's so much BS coming from LE on this one it's positively disgusting.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | The second officer that was put on unpaid leave was due to his being caught in a lie. He was the one who said that a gun was present, then he later tried to tell investigators that he wasn't even on the scene, even though his voice is on dispatch tapes identifying that a gun was present.
Second pertinent fact, the shooter shot from a range of about 100 feet with a rifle.
| Quote: |
Sources told Local 10 News that Hollant was the voice on the radio telling dispatch and other officers that someone had a gun. They said he then lied to investigators, telling them he wasn't even at the scene when the shooting happened.
Miami officials made it clear that the city will not stand behind an officer who they believed lied or fabricated evidence in the case.
| Quote: |
"An officer who betrays the trust of any residents of any community must be shamed, removed, fired and of course completely, completely lose the right to ever wear an officers' uniform again," North MIami |
Police said they were called to the area about a man who was walking around with a gun and threatening to commit suicide.
| Quote: | Local 10 News reporter Amy Viteri spoke to Sivano Hernandez, who recorded the incident.
"Before police even showed up he laid down with his hands up," Hernandez said.
Hernandez said Kinsey was being submissive and trying to calm down his autistic client, who was holding the toy truck.
"Everybody at this point thought that the little toy train was actually a gun because it looked silver and shiny," Hernandez said.
In the video, Kinsey is heard telling officers that he is unarmed, but Hernandez said Kinsey was not shot by the officers seen in the video, but by one of two officers who took cover more than 100 feet away behind a car.
"Do you think he could have heard what Mr. Kinsey was saying at the time when he was shouting?" Viteri asked.
"I'm very sure that there was no possible way that you could hear from that distance," Hernandez said
|
|
Shot from 100 feet away |
These guys are horrible liars and truly bad at formulating excuses. So an alleged SWAT officer with a rifle that was likely scoped is taking a shot from a 100 feet away without any communication with the officers or getting a clearance to shoot. And this trained SWAT officer misses his target? Like by a lot . . . so his shots completely miss his intended target, yet somehow they manage to hit the guy he didn't mean to shoot - who just happened to be the black guy and not the white guy.
There's so much BS coming from LE on this one it's positively disgusting. |
I want to preface this by stating that I'm not defending the officers actions, nor the voracity of his story. But I will say that when one examines the statistics of Police shootings, it is definitely plausible that the officer missed his target as Police bullets only hit their target at a 43%rate and that's at the average range of 20 feet. So this officer being at 5 times that range and missing his sitting target by 3 feet and hitting the victim in the lower leg that was nearest to the sitting target, does fall within the realm of plausability.
If the officer is indeed being truthful about trying to take out the Autistic guy that he thought had a gun, I can easily see him going to cover-his-arse mode upon approaching the victim and seeing that he'd hit the wrong guy. It's the only thing that would come close to explaining his handcuffing him.
All that said, I still have issue with taking out the autistic guy without firm confirmation BY SIGHT of the presence of a gun. Heck, even our soldiers in a war theater weren't allowed to discharge their weapons in a civilian environment UNLESS a gun was pointed at them in a threatening manner. So not only did they have to identify the presence of a gun, but they also had to wait until it was pointed towards them in a threatening manner. That's has to be the standard for police as well. Simple presence of a gun shouldn't be sufficient to start discharging your weapon.
I'm still having trouble lumping this one in with the rest of these police shootings. Looking forward to seeing all the details that come out on this one. My spidey senses aren't tingling with foul play on this one. My gut tells me that a decent officer screwed up.
I'll go on record and state what I think the outcome of this one will be:
1. The shooting Officer will be cleared of any wrongdoing in taking the shot, but reprimanded in some fashion for his negligence.
2. The 2nd officer that lied will be fired
3. The victim will receive a quick and tidy settlement from the city.
4. All this will happen much more quickly than we've become accustomed to.
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aussiesuede wrote: |
I want to preface this by stating that I'm not defending the officers actions, nor the voracity of his story. But I will say that when one examines the statistics of Police shootings, it is definitely plausible that the officer missed his target as Police bullets only hit their target at a 43%rate and that's at the average range of 20 feet. So this officer being at 5 times that range and missing his sitting target by 3 feet and hitting the victim in the lower leg that was nearest to the sitting target, does fall within the realm of plausibility. |
All the more reason that he shouldn't have been taking that shot at the range under those circumstances. ESPECIALLY as a SWAT officer. And we can talk about the margin for error on shots as far as missing the target all we wish, it's pretty coincidental that his shots DID hit the other guy - there's a whole of empty space that "missed" shots could have gone harmlessly into, yet they found a person.
| Quote: | | If the officer is indeed being truthful about trying to take out the Autistic guy that he thought had a gun, I can easily see him going to cover-his-arse mode upon approaching the victim and seeing that he'd hit the wrong guy. It's the only thing that would come close to explaining his handcuffing him. |
He shouldn't be taking that shot from that range based on a "thought" of the presence of a gun. If he can't SEE the gun for sure and he is that far out, there's no justifiable reason to be taking a long range shot without any confirmation of an imminent threat.
| Quote: | All that said, I still have issue with taking out the autistic guy without firm confirmation BY SIGHT of the presence of a gun. Heck, even our soldiers in a war theater weren't allowed to discharge their weapons in a civilian environment UNLESS a gun was pointed at them in a threatening manner. So not only did they have to identify the presence of a gun, but they also had to wait until it was pointed towards them in a threatening manner. That's has to be the standard for police as well. Simple presence of a gun shouldn't be sufficient to start discharging your weapon.
I'm still having trouble lumping this one in with the rest of these police shootings. |
I'm not. An unarmed, non-theratening person trying to protect a second unarmed non-threatening person was shot by a trigger happy (bleep) cop and lies were told to help cover up the unjustified nature of the shooting. This is EXACTLY the kind of shooting that needs to be lumped in with all the other criminal ones.
| Quote: | | Looking forward to seeing all the details that come out on this one. My spidey senses aren't tingling with foul play on this one. My gut tells me that a decent officer screwed up. |
Well, I hope your "spider senses" can get recalibrated.
| Quote: | I'll go on record and state what I think the outcome of this one will be:
1. The shooting Officer will be cleared of any wrongdoing in taking the shot, but reprimanded in some fashion for his negligence.
2. The 2nd officer that lied will be fired
3. The victim will receive a quick and tidy settlement from the city.
4. All this will happen much more quickly than we've become accustomed to. |
As for the bolded, of course he will be cleared, but that has nothing to do with whether he is guilty or not. What on Earth has lead you to believe he wouldn't be based on past experience? Cops don't get held accountable. In the hundreds of bad shootings, a tiny handful (if that many) have been criminally charged.
As for number 4, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aussiesuede
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 10964
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | The autistic man who was the intended target of a police bullet is suffering from emotional distress, not eating and traumatized following the shooting of his caretaker.
Arnaldo Rios' mother, Gladys Soto, said during a Saturday news conference that she is worried about the safety of her son, who wandered back to the site of the Monday shooting a day later, threw himself on the ground and shouted: "I hate the police, I hate the police"
Miriam Soto said her brother is suffering from night terrors and is not sleeping or eating.
"He's not the same anymore," Miriam Soto said of her brother.
Monday's shooting was the latest in a violent month of police shootings, but it also highlights the difficulties officers have in identifying people with autism. The characteristics of autism range from mild quirks or obsessions, to people who can't communicate, yell and occasionally become violent.
The family's attorney Matthew Dietz on Saturday criticized the officers' training in dealing with people with mental illness.
"After they knew that he had autism, what did they do? They threw him on the ground"
. |
Autistic Man Traumatised
_________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If he is indeed found not guilty, then he is essentially not guilty. I mean, the guillt and innocence of the American people can't hinge on the opinions of an internet message board poster with lack of access to little else than media reports and Youtube.
That said, the justice system doesn't always get it the way we'd want but as long as there is no corruption, then so be it. Can't always get what we want the way we want even though that's how people are nowadays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
