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cinimod Star Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 2189 Location: In my skin
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:39 pm Post subject: Best of All Time vs. Greatest of All Time |
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Good, better, best. Great, greater, greatest. That's how those word are supposed to progress. But in sports we've created a different progression - average, good, great. This progression works when discussing current players or trying to determine a player's or team's potential. But when we refer to all time lists, I think we should split them and go back to Best and Greatest. They're different.
For instance, who is the better player - Lebron or Kobe? Although we could argue that Kobe is more skilled, most would have to admit Lebron is the better player. He's the cream of the crop physically, and the dudes stat lines are incredible and efficient. But then, who is the greater player between the two? Kobe is. He's been no slouch statistically, then add in the mamba mentality, the will to win, the desire to take and make the last shot and the 5 rings. All of those lend credence to his greatness.
Here's another. Who's the better player - Wilt or Russell? Obviously Wilt. Russell only averaged about 15 points per game for his career. But who was the greater player? Russell was. 11 rings in 13 years, the leadership qualities and a willingness to do whatever he had to in order to make the team successful.
With that in mind, i give you my TOP 5 BEST PLAYERS and my TOP 5 GREATEST PLAYERS:
Top 5 BEST:
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson
Top 5 GREATEST:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Kobe Bryant
If you can understand my reasoning for wanting to separate "best" from "greatest," I'd like to see your lists - top 5 or 10 of each.
Last edited by cinimod on Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chadley Sixth Man
Joined: 13 Jul 2016 Posts: 46
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Best of All Time vs. Greatest of All Time |
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Oh dear god. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Best of All Time vs. Greatest of All Time |
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cinimod wrote: | Good, better, best. Great, greater, greatest. That's how those word are supposed to progress. But in sports we've created a different progression - average, good, great. This progression works when discussing current players or trying to determine a player's or team's potential. But when we refer to all time lists, I think we should split them and go back to Best and Greatest. They're different.
For instance, who is the better player - Lebron or Kobe? Although we could argue that Kobe is more skilled, most would have to admit Lebron is the better player. He's the cream of the crop physically, and the dudes stat lines are incredible and efficient. But then, who is the greater player between the two? Kobe is. He's been no slouch statistically, then add in the mamba mentality, the will to win, the desire to take and make the last shot. Not to mention the 5 rings. All of those lend credence to his greatness.
Here's another. Who's the better player - Wilt or Russell? Obviously Wilt. Russell only averaged about 15 points per game for his career. But who was the greater player? Russell was. 11 rings in 13 years, the leadership qualities and a willingness to do whatever he had to in order to make the team successful.
With that in mind, i give you my TOP 5 BEST PLAYERS and my TOP 5 GREATEST PLAYERS:
Top 5 BEST:
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson
Top 5 GREATEST:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Kobe Bryant
If you can understand my reasoning for wanting to separate "best" from "greatest," I'd like to see your lists - top 5 or 10 of each. |
At first, I thought you were dividing guys into categories:
(1) Best -what they achieve by tangible measures -- rings, awards, and stats.
(2) Greatest - their skill as basketball players based on subjective criteria, such as leadership, will to win, skills, etc.
Then you started Kobe was in the Greatest categories based on his skill yet you added "no slouch statistically ... Not to mention the 5 rings. All of those lend credence to his greatness."
So it isn't clear to me how you are dividing the two categories, if rings and stats are a factor in "greatness." |
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cinimod Star Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 2189 Location: In my skin
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Best of All Time vs. Greatest of All Time |
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activeverb wrote: | cinimod wrote: | Good, better, best. Great, greater, greatest. That's how those word are supposed to progress. But in sports we've created a different progression - average, good, great. This progression works when discussing current players or trying to determine a player's or team's potential. But when we refer to all time lists, I think we should split them and go back to Best and Greatest. They're different.
For instance, who is the better player - Lebron or Kobe? Although we could argue that Kobe is more skilled, most would have to admit Lebron is the better player. He's the cream of the crop physically, and the dudes stat lines are incredible and efficient. But then, who is the greater player between the two? Kobe is. He's been no slouch statistically, then add in the mamba mentality, the will to win, the desire to take and make the last shot. Not to mention the 5 rings. All of those lend credence to his greatness.
Here's another. Who's the better player - Wilt or Russell? Obviously Wilt. Russell only averaged about 15 points per game for his career. But who was the greater player? Russell was. 11 rings in 13 years, the leadership qualities and a willingness to do whatever he had to in order to make the team successful.
With that in mind, i give you my TOP 5 BEST PLAYERS and my TOP 5 GREATEST PLAYERS:
Top 5 BEST:
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson
Top 5 GREATEST:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell
Kobe Bryant
If you can understand my reasoning for wanting to separate "best" from "greatest," I'd like to see your lists - top 5 or 10 of each. |
At first, I thought you were dividing guys into categories:
(1) Best -what they achieve by tangible measures -- rings, awards, and stats.
(2) Greatest - their skill as basketball players based on subjective criteria, such as leadership, will to win, skills, etc.
Then you started Kobe was in the Greatest categories based on his skill yet you added "no slouch statistically ... Not to mention the 5 rings. All of those lend credence to his greatness."
So it isn't clear to me how you are dividing the two categories, if rings and stats are a factor in "greatness." |
It's obviously still subjective but to be great i think you still had to put up good numbers. But you more heavily consider the intagibles and how those things contribute to overall and team success.
Consider the Malone vs. Duncan argument. Common consensus is that Duncan is the GOAT PF now largely due to the rings, but a strong argument could be made that Malone was actually the better player.
What prompted this is that when you see "all-time" arguments, often times one person is agruing "best player" and the other is arguing "greatest player" without actually knowing it. |
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Chadley Sixth Man
Joined: 13 Jul 2016 Posts: 46
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Best of All Time vs. Greatest of All Time |
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How LeBron doesn't make the greatest list after bringing a chip to Cleveland in impossible fashion is beyond me.
What other perimeter player could have done what LeBron just did? Jordan? Probably the only other guy who would have ever had a chance.
And since this place has a disturbingly high amount of people who say the finals were rigged in favor of the Cavs despite no numbers to back it up, just isolated missed calls, even if he WERE getting preferential treatment, (he didn't) he still balled the (bleep) out and even WITH preferential treatment MJ is the only other guy who could have done this.
But the way Bron was officiated in the finals? I'm not even sure MJ could have done what he just did. But he's not a top 5 greatest player, he doesn't have "it" guys, am I right??
The reason LeBron fans don't spew crap about his "will to win" and "determination" is because he shows it on the court and his numbers back it up (literally any stat possible besides free throw shooting and mid range shooting). He just led both teams, one of them being the 73 win Warriors, in pts, steals, assists, rebounds, and blocks in a 7 game series, ffs. Accept greatness.
Kobe stans with inferiority issues are always the ones to bring up that immeasurable bs, and they harp on it and harp on it and pass it back and forth amongst themselves, elevating the "will to win" myth to critical circle-jerking mass. As if numbers don't suggest the opposite. He's always performed mediocre in crunchtime and still we have threads like this after his career is over. |
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Luke Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2003 Posts: 5004 Location: Deep Europe
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Best of All Time vs. Greatest of All Time |
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Chadley wrote: | How LeBron doesn't make the greatest list after bringing a chip to Cleveland in impossible fashion is beyond me.
What other perimeter player could have done what LeBron just did? Jordan? Probably the only other guy who would have ever had a chance.
And since this place has a disturbingly high amount of people who say the finals were rigged in favor of the Cavs despite no numbers to back it up, just isolated missed calls, even if he WERE getting preferential treatment, (he didn't) he still balled the (bleep) out and even WITH preferential treatment MJ is the only other guy who could have done this.
But the way Bron was officiated in the finals? I'm not even sure MJ could have done what he just did. But he's not a top 5 greatest player, he doesn't have "it" guys, am I right??
The reason LeBron fans don't spew crap about his "will to win" and "determination" is because he shows it on the court and his numbers back it up (literally any stat possible besides free throw shooting and mid range shooting). He just led both teams, one of them being the 73 win Warriors, in pts, steals, assists, rebounds, and blocks in a 7 game series, ffs. Accept greatness.
Kobe stans with inferiority issues are always the ones to bring up that immeasurable bs, and they harp on it and harp on it and pass it back and forth amongst themselves, elevating the "will to win" myth to critical circle-jerking mass. As if numbers don't suggest the opposite. He's always performed mediocre in crunchtime and still we have threads like this after his career is over. |
Even if you don't take into account all the help( referees and commissioner) James got to win his 3 rings ( and I'm talking about the most helped player of all times, he is still behind Kobe's 5 rings |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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cinimod wrote: | It's obviously still subjective but to be great i think you still had to put up good numbers. But you more heavily consider the intagibles and how those things contribute to overall and team success. |
I don't mind subjective. But a ranking system based primarily on intangibles seems too vague to add much value to the discussion. I think most people already factor in intangibles in how they rank players (at least I do), so I don't think there's a need to break it out as a separate list. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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av thinks rings and awards are tangible and skills are subjective. i probably would say both are rather subjective, but definitely rings and awards are not objective by any means (which seems to be the inference).
the difficulty with these debates is this. scoring is the best and nobody admits it. the best scorer is the best thing IF we are talking about individual talent. passing is good, but requires the other guy to score, so now it gets complicated. rebounding is even more complicated, so is defense, and so on. then all these numbers get combined and people try to use that data to prove who is better, which is not their intent.
But scoring is the best and will remain so until games are not decided by total points scored. and because the hoop is 10' high, the bigger man is better, all things being equal. so two things, scoring and size. i can't get around this. it's hard to argue wilt or kareem not being the best. everyone want to say MJ, I want to say kobe...but bigger will always be better. the heavyweight will beat the lighter weights almost every single time.
best vs greatest....yea, i agree there's a distinction there. i'd say skill is best, and greatest is accolades and stuff like that...numbers, awards, rings.
the best player i ever saw was kobe. if i had to pick one guy, I'm going with wilt. the greatest player in my life was magic. if i were unbiased, i'd have to say mj is the greatest, but I can still argue magic there a little.
lebron is not on my radar for best or greatest. If I were forced to use those terms i'd say this: lebron is the best fantasy sports player at least since fantasy sports existed. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | the difficulty with these debates is this. scoring is the best and nobody admits it. the best scorer is the best thing IF we are talking about individual talent. passing is good, but requires the other guy to score, so now it gets complicated. rebounding is even more complicated, so is defense, and so on. then all these numbers get combined and people try to use that data to prove who is better, which is not their intent. . |
I guess we are now pretending that Lebron doesn't have the 5th best scoring average in NBA history; the 5th best scoring average in NBA playoff history; that by next year he will score the most total points in NBA playoff history; and he'll likely finish his career no worse than third all-time total points in NBA regular season play, after Kareem and Malone.
No need to answer, because I know the answer: Scoring is all that matters, but scoring average and points scored are stupid stats that don't belong in the discussion if you dislike the player who did the scoring. |
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Theseus Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 13734
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:05 am Post subject: |
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This seems like a convoluted way of saying "Okay, Lebron is a better player, but Kobe is still greater because he won more rings and was 'clutch.'" If that's what you think, okay. You're basically building a mental refuge for yourself. Cool deal. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144412 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Kareem is the greatest and best of all time. How is that? _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Shlumpledink wrote: | Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball. |
i'd say hakeem is far better than duncan. if you switch them around, duncan doesn't do as well with the rockets in the 80s and 90s, and hakeem would probably destroy the league with the 2000s spurs teams.
imagine duncan playing with sampson initially, then horry, maxwell, kenny afterwards. it's hard to see how he would do better than hakeem in anything really.
now imagine hakeem coming into the league with Drob. then in his prime with ginobli and parker. then with leonard as he is aging (instead of playing in toronto like he did). that would be an amazing team, better than the spurs actual 2000s run which was already very good. like, duncan can't deal with shaq. but hakeem could (and he's smaller, so it's not a size thing). and hakeem also destroy drob. so now this guy is on your side. without question, hakeem is the better player. and this is the problem with the duncan's PF bit...it's a gimmick and he's the same kind of big man as hakeem only much worse. if duncan is a PF, so is Hakeem, and hench, Hakeem is for sure the greatest PF ever. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | Shlumpledink wrote: | Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball. |
i'd say hakeem is far better than duncan. if you switch them around, duncan doesn't do as well with the rockets in the 80s and 90s, and hakeem would probably destroy the league with the 2000s spurs teams.
imagine duncan playing with sampson initially, then horry, maxwell, kenny afterwards. it's hard to see how he would do better than hakeem in anything really.
now imagine hakeem coming into the league with Drob. then in his prime with ginobli and parker. then with leonard as he is aging (instead of playing in toronto like he did). that would be an amazing team, better than the spurs actual 2000s run which was already very good. like, duncan can't deal with shaq. but hakeem could (and he's smaller, so it's not a size thing). and hakeem also destroy drob. so now this guy is on your side. without question, hakeem is the better player. and this is the problem with the duncan's PF bit...it's a gimmick and he's the same kind of big man as hakeem only much worse. if duncan is a PF, so is Hakeem, and hench, Hakeem is for sure the greatest PF ever. |
You just said scoring is all that matters. By your criteria, the best PF of all time is Lebron, if you consider him a PF, followed by Malone. Just teasing, you big lug |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | SuperboyReformed wrote: | Shlumpledink wrote: | Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball. |
i'd say hakeem is far better than duncan. if you switch them around, duncan doesn't do as well with the rockets in the 80s and 90s, and hakeem would probably destroy the league with the 2000s spurs teams.
imagine duncan playing with sampson initially, then horry, maxwell, kenny afterwards. it's hard to see how he would do better than hakeem in anything really.
now imagine hakeem coming into the league with Drob. then in his prime with ginobli and parker. then with leonard as he is aging (instead of playing in toronto like he did). that would be an amazing team, better than the spurs actual 2000s run which was already very good. like, duncan can't deal with shaq. but hakeem could (and he's smaller, so it's not a size thing). and hakeem also destroy drob. so now this guy is on your side. without question, hakeem is the better player. and this is the problem with the duncan's PF bit...it's a gimmick and he's the same kind of big man as hakeem only much worse. if duncan is a PF, so is Hakeem, and hench, Hakeem is for sure the greatest PF ever. |
You just said scoring is all that matters. By your criteria, the best PF of all time is Lebron, if you consider him a PF, followed by Malone. Just teasing, you big lug |
nice one, you had me there I'll be honest. Was going crazy a bit. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | activeverb wrote: | SuperboyReformed wrote: | Shlumpledink wrote: | Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball. |
i'd say hakeem is far better than duncan. if you switch them around, duncan doesn't do as well with the rockets in the 80s and 90s, and hakeem would probably destroy the league with the 2000s spurs teams.
imagine duncan playing with sampson initially, then horry, maxwell, kenny afterwards. it's hard to see how he would do better than hakeem in anything really.
now imagine hakeem coming into the league with Drob. then in his prime with ginobli and parker. then with leonard as he is aging (instead of playing in toronto like he did). that would be an amazing team, better than the spurs actual 2000s run which was already very good. like, duncan can't deal with shaq. but hakeem could (and he's smaller, so it's not a size thing). and hakeem also destroy drob. so now this guy is on your side. without question, hakeem is the better player. and this is the problem with the duncan's PF bit...it's a gimmick and he's the same kind of big man as hakeem only much worse. if duncan is a PF, so is Hakeem, and hench, Hakeem is for sure the greatest PF ever. |
You just said scoring is all that matters. By your criteria, the best PF of all time is Lebron, if you consider him a PF, followed by Malone. Just teasing, you big lug |
nice one, you had me there I'll be honest. Was going crazy a bit. |
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Luke Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2003 Posts: 5004 Location: Deep Europe
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:11 am Post subject: |
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The OP doesn't need to be worried now that BSPN is talking about James as the best ever.
Kobe is still the best and the greatest ( over James); so, no need to worry about it |
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Wilkes52 Star Player
Joined: 02 Jun 2009 Posts: 2415 Location: Far from home
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:50 am Post subject: |
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"That's how those word are supposed to progress."
To be kind, when a post begins with such a flawed (if also novel) premise, one can can poor reasoning to follow.
Best ? Greatest ? These are words with essentially indistinguishable meanings in our language (English.) Don't try to be the linguistics expert. You're not. _________________ “These GOAT discussions are fun distractions while sitting around waiting for the pizza to be served.”
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar |
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cinimod Star Player
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 2189 Location: In my skin
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Wilkes52 wrote: | "That's how those word are supposed to progress."
To be kind, when a post begins with such a flawed (if also novel) premise, one can can poor reasoning to follow.
Best ? Greatest ? These are words with essentially indistinguishable meanings in our language (English.) Don't try to be the linguistics expert. You're not. |
Hmmm I don't remember claiming to be a linguistics expert. But I still believe the best players are not always the greatest players, and separating the two makes for a compelling discussion (except on Lakersground LOL). And thanks for being "kind." |
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moonriver24 Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 Posts: 15265
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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There are players listed here were once the best in their era and then they belong to the greatest. But not all once tbe best become the greatest.
The Best and still the Greatest:
Mj
Kobe
Magic
Kareem
Larry Bird
I know this list may piss off some fans. But veryone has a holeor opinion. Mine is well backed up with facts. _________________ Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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cinimod wrote: | But I still believe the best players are not always the greatest players, and separating the two makes for a compelling discussion (except on Lakersground LOL). |
I think this hasn't generated any discussion because no one understands what the difference between "greatest" and "best" is supposed to be -- I'm not sure you even understand what you mean by these terms.
I kinda sorta think you are distinguishing between intrinsic ability and accomplishments, but I'm not even sure about that. So it's hard to discuss a topic when the topic itself is murky. |
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Chronicle Retired Number
Joined: 21 Jul 2012 Posts: 31928 Location: Manhattan
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Luke wrote: | The OP doesn't need to be worried now that BSPN is talking about James as the best ever.
Kobe is still the best and the greatest ( over James); so, no need to worry about it |
_________________ Kobe |
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unleasHell Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001 Posts: 11591 Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:16 am Post subject: |
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Shlumpledink wrote: | Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball. |
Exactly, unless you are comparing actual numbers (Rings, MVP's Scoring, rebounds, etc.) it is all subjective.
Now, when many people and so-called basketball experts subjectively agree, then people tend to elevate that person.
Case in point: I lived-through and saw nearly every televised game that Magic Johnson played and living in So. Cal. saw very few Michael Jordan games and no one will ever convince me that Jordan was better than Magic, sure Jordan won (1) more ring than Magic, but Magic was in the Finals 9 of his first 12 years! And while Magic may have had a better supporting cast than Michael, I also believe that Magic played and won against way better teams than Michael did!
So there...
Also, I would NOT include LeBron in any of my Best or Greatest lists, hell I would pick Larry Bird over Lebron! _________________ “Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.” |
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fan4life Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2001 Posts: 3675
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:36 am Post subject: |
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The straw grasping is strong in this thread
I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:46 am Post subject: |
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fan4life wrote: | The straw grasping is strong in this thread
I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both. |
I don't know either. If the OP really just wanted to talk about a better system for ranking players, he would have kept Kobe and Lebron out of it entirely. Of course, if he did that this thread would have been 3 posts long. |
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