Best of All Time vs. Greatest of All Time
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
the association
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:48 am    Post subject:

It's the best player vs. best career debate, repackaged for a new generation ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
moonriver24
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:04 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


I don't know either. If the OP really just wanted to talk about a better system for ranking players, he would have kept Kobe and Lebron out of it entirely. Of course, if he did that this thread would have been 3 posts long.

Funny. How kobe n lebron names cannot be separated.
From same old posters.
_________________
Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Luke
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 5004
Location: Deep Europe

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:14 am    Post subject:

fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


If you can't figure it out, just look another way...


There are almost as many props to Larry Bird than to Kobe, and you can't accuse Laker fans to be Bird's fans...



There is really no need to diminish James, since everybody knows that almost all of what he has done is thanks to the league's help every single day since he came into the league. Talk about a manufactured superstar.



Larry Bird is much more respected here , because he was better in every aspect of the game, except for a little more defense James played during Miami years. Shooting, passing, not to mention a way bigger killer instinct and a far better competition he had, make Larry Bird a better player with a better career than James. Bird didn't need referees' help all the times.


James , instead, has been pushed ad nauseam to make everybody believe he is better than he is, and so many times he failed , even with all this help.


I have made a lot of examples as why James hasn't won a single championship without key referees mistakes ( not to mention he was given the last on a "Silver platter").

I want to add that they tried to help him other times failing to make him a champion : here's another scandal, that luckyly didn't go well ( but they tried very hard to give him the 2009 championship):



Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:38 am    Post subject:

Luke wrote:
fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


If you can't figure it out, just look another way...


There are almost as many props to Larry Bird than to Kobe, and you can't accuse Laker fans to be Bird's fans...



There is really no need to diminish James, since everybody knows that almost all of what he has done is thanks to the league's help every single day since he came into the league. Talk about a manufactured superstar.



Larry Bird is much more respected here , because he was better in every aspect of the game, except for a little more defense James played during Miami years. Shooting, passing, not to mention a way bigger killer instinct and a far better competition he had, make Larry Bird a better player with a better career than James. Bird didn't need referees' help all the times.


James , instead, has been pushed ad nauseam to make everybody believe he is better than he is, and so many times he failed , even with all this help.


I have made a lot of examples as why James hasn't won a single championship without key referees mistakes ( not to mention he was given the last on a "Silver platter").

I want to add that they tried to help him other times failing to make him a champion : here's another scandal, that luckyly didn't go well ( but they tried very hard to give him the 2009 championship):





Well, this is an example of why threads like this grind to a halt.

Personally, I would have been interested in understanding a framework for evaluating players.

But once the names Lebron and Kobe are tossed into the framework, people get emotional, unleash generic rants, and the thread derails.

I would have preferred if the OP had explained his framework using players who don't make people emotional -- say, Patrick Ewing, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, Rick Barry and Dominique Wilkens.

Then the discussion would have focused on the evaluation system, rather than people's feelings about particular players.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Luke
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 5004
Location: Deep Europe

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:15 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Luke wrote:
fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


If you can't figure it out, just look another way...


There are almost as many props to Larry Bird than to Kobe, and you can't accuse Laker fans to be Bird's fans...



There is really no need to diminish James, since everybody knows that almost all of what he has done is thanks to the league's help every single day since he came into the league. Talk about a manufactured superstar.



Larry Bird is much more respected here , because he was better in every aspect of the game, except for a little more defense James played during Miami years. Shooting, passing, not to mention a way bigger killer instinct and a far better competition he had, make Larry Bird a better player with a better career than James. Bird didn't need referees' help all the times.


James , instead, has been pushed ad nauseam to make everybody believe he is better than he is, and so many times he failed , even with all this help.


I have made a lot of examples as why James hasn't won a single championship without key referees mistakes ( not to mention he was given the last on a "Silver platter").

I want to add that they tried to help him other times failing to make him a champion : here's another scandal, that luckyly didn't go well ( but they tried very hard to give him the 2009 championship):





Well, this is an example of why threads like this grind to a halt.

Personally, I would have been interested in understanding a framework for evaluating players.

But once the names Lebron and Kobe are tossed into the framework, people get emotional, unleash generic rants, and the thread derails.

I would have preferred if the OP had explained his framework using players who don't make people emotional -- say, Patrick Ewing, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, Rick Barry and Dominique Wilkens.

Then the discussion would have focused on the evaluation system, rather than people's feelings about particular players.



Generic rants ... I think you should be careful when you say something like that . I was not talking about kobe at all, but about a player who was our biggest rival : Larry Bird. I lived the Bird-Magic rivalry, and I hated Bird at that time. Now I respect him as a fierce competitor of our beloved team, and I think he has been a better player than James.

Why can't you accept other opinions without getting hurt? Because you call me emotional, but you are hurt when the someone tells the what he thinks about James : if you weren't emotionally hurt by my comparison between James and Bird, you wouldn't even have answered to my post( or maybe you could have offered another opinion on the matter...)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject:

Luke wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Luke wrote:
fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


If you can't figure it out, just look another way...


There are almost as many props to Larry Bird than to Kobe, and you can't accuse Laker fans to be Bird's fans...



There is really no need to diminish James, since everybody knows that almost all of what he has done is thanks to the league's help every single day since he came into the league. Talk about a manufactured superstar.



Larry Bird is much more respected here , because he was better in every aspect of the game, except for a little more defense James played during Miami years. Shooting, passing, not to mention a way bigger killer instinct and a far better competition he had, make Larry Bird a better player with a better career than James. Bird didn't need referees' help all the times.


James , instead, has been pushed ad nauseam to make everybody believe he is better than he is, and so many times he failed , even with all this help.


I have made a lot of examples as why James hasn't won a single championship without key referees mistakes ( not to mention he was given the last on a "Silver platter").

I want to add that they tried to help him other times failing to make him a champion : here's another scandal, that luckyly didn't go well ( but they tried very hard to give him the 2009 championship):





Well, this is an example of why threads like this grind to a halt.

Personally, I would have been interested in understanding a framework for evaluating players.

But once the names Lebron and Kobe are tossed into the framework, people get emotional, unleash generic rants, and the thread derails.

I would have preferred if the OP had explained his framework using players who don't make people emotional -- say, Patrick Ewing, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, Rick Barry and Dominique Wilkens.

Then the discussion would have focused on the evaluation system, rather than people's feelings about particular players.



Generic rants ... I think you should be careful when you say something like that . I was not talking about kobe at all, but about a player who was our biggest rival : Larry Bird. I lived the Bird-Magic rivalry, and I hated Bird at that time. Now I respect him as a fierce competitor of our beloved team, and I think he has been a better player than James.

Why can't you accept other opinions without getting hurt? Because you call me emotional, but you are hurt when the someone tells the what he thinks about James : if you weren't emotionally hurt by my comparison between James and Bird, you wouldn't even have answered to my post( or maybe you could have offered another opinion on the matter...)


I was referring to your generic rant about Lebron.

I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about Lebron, whether you like or hate him. That's your business. My eyes just glaze over when people start griping about the refereeing and insist a ring won by a player they don't like doesn't count for some reason.

My opinion is refs make mistakes. That's life. And all rings count equally, even if a strike shortened the season or if one of the teams had a lot of injuries or if you don't like the refs calls. That's life too. All of Lebron's three rings are equal to Bird's three rings or three of Jordan's or Kobe's rings.

And I think Kobe, Lebron, and Bird are all in the top 10 players of all time, and I wouldn't quibble with whatever order someone places the three of them. They are close enough that I can see someone make a reasonable case for placing any of them above the other two, depending on your perspective and what you think is important in evaluating players.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:46 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Luke wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Luke wrote:
fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


If you can't figure it out, just look another way...


There are almost as many props to Larry Bird than to Kobe, and you can't accuse Laker fans to be Bird's fans...



There is really no need to diminish James, since everybody knows that almost all of what he has done is thanks to the league's help every single day since he came into the league. Talk about a manufactured superstar.



Larry Bird is much more respected here , because he was better in every aspect of the game, except for a little more defense James played during Miami years. Shooting, passing, not to mention a way bigger killer instinct and a far better competition he had, make Larry Bird a better player with a better career than James. Bird didn't need referees' help all the times.


James , instead, has been pushed ad nauseam to make everybody believe he is better than he is, and so many times he failed , even with all this help.


I have made a lot of examples as why James hasn't won a single championship without key referees mistakes ( not to mention he was given the last on a "Silver platter").

I want to add that they tried to help him other times failing to make him a champion : here's another scandal, that luckyly didn't go well ( but they tried very hard to give him the 2009 championship):





Well, this is an example of why threads like this grind to a halt.

Personally, I would have been interested in understanding a framework for evaluating players.

But once the names Lebron and Kobe are tossed into the framework, people get emotional, unleash generic rants, and the thread derails.

I would have preferred if the OP had explained his framework using players who don't make people emotional -- say, Patrick Ewing, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, Rick Barry and Dominique Wilkens.

Then the discussion would have focused on the evaluation system, rather than people's feelings about particular players.



Generic rants ... I think you should be careful when you say something like that . I was not talking about kobe at all, but about a player who was our biggest rival : Larry Bird. I lived the Bird-Magic rivalry, and I hated Bird at that time. Now I respect him as a fierce competitor of our beloved team, and I think he has been a better player than James.

Why can't you accept other opinions without getting hurt? Because you call me emotional, but you are hurt when the someone tells the what he thinks about James : if you weren't emotionally hurt by my comparison between James and Bird, you wouldn't even have answered to my post( or maybe you could have offered another opinion on the matter...)


I was referring to your generic rant about Lebron.

I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about Lebron, whether you like or hate him. That's your business. My eyes just glaze over when people start griping about the refereeing and insist a ring won by a player they don't like doesn't count for some reason.

My opinion is refs make mistakes. That's life. And all rings count equally, even if a strike shortened the season or if one of the teams had a lot of injuries or if you don't like the refs calls. That's life too. All of Lebron's three rings are equal to Bird's three rings or three of Jordan's or Kobe's rings.

And I think Kobe, Lebron, and Bird are all in the top 10 players of all time, and I wouldn't quibble with whatever order someone places the three of them. They are close enough that I can see someone make a reasonable case for placing any of them above the other two, depending on your perspective and what you think is important in evaluating players.

luke is exactly right here. lebron is officiated as if he's as fragile as curry, then everyone talks about how strong he is and how much of a beast. those videos are very revealing (there are many more). How av can say that officiating mistakes balance out equally, or that all rings are equal...ridiculous. Lebron's career would basically be destroyed if the officials called just one thing...his off arm pushoff on drives (he even does it in that video). he does it like every time. That should tell everyone that he is officiated favorably, because who else gets away with the years on end? (curry has been getting away with it a lot lately, but surprise! he's been overhyped lately also). Lebron would be reduced to a literally pathetic player if that was called. All these "greatest" questions as of late...to realize how crazy it is, whenever we wonder "is lebron better than jerry west" anything like that...just switch their positions. Imagine Jerry West doing what Lebron does...teaming up with other greats TWICE...getting away with a specific foul throughout a career, etc etc. Lebron is the most silver plattered plate in history, second is duncan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:

luke is exactly right here. lebron is officiated as if he's as fragile as curry, then everyone talks about how strong he is and how much of a beast. those videos are very revealing (there are many more). How av can say that officiating mistakes balance out equally, or that all rings are equal...ridiculous. Lebron's career would basically be destroyed if the officials called just one thing...his off arm pushoff on drives (he even does it in that video). he does it like every time. That should tell everyone that he is officiated favorably, because who else gets away with the years on end? (curry has been getting away with it a lot lately, but surprise! he's been overhyped lately also). Lebron would be reduced to a literally pathetic player if that was called. All these "greatest" questions as of late...to realize how crazy it is, whenever we wonder "is lebron better than jerry west" anything like that...just switch their positions. Imagine Jerry West doing what Lebron does...teaming up with other greats TWICE...getting away with a specific foul throughout a career, etc etc. Lebron is the most silver plattered plate in history, second is duncan.


Like I said, generic rants make my eyes glaze over.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
laffertydaniel
Rookie
Rookie


Joined: 28 Jul 2016
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject:


I don't even.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:27 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:

luke is exactly right here. lebron is officiated as if he's as fragile as curry, then everyone talks about how strong he is and how much of a beast. those videos are very revealing (there are many more). How av can say that officiating mistakes balance out equally, or that all rings are equal...ridiculous. Lebron's career would basically be destroyed if the officials called just one thing...his off arm pushoff on drives (he even does it in that video). he does it like every time. That should tell everyone that he is officiated favorably, because who else gets away with the years on end? (curry has been getting away with it a lot lately, but surprise! he's been overhyped lately also). Lebron would be reduced to a literally pathetic player if that was called. All these "greatest" questions as of late...to realize how crazy it is, whenever we wonder "is lebron better than jerry west" anything like that...just switch their positions. Imagine Jerry West doing what Lebron does...teaming up with other greats TWICE...getting away with a specific foul throughout a career, etc etc. Lebron is the most silver plattered plate in history, second is duncan.


Like I said, generic rants make my eyes glaze over.

do you consider anything over 140 characters a rant?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
moonriver24
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:50 pm    Post subject:

Luke wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Luke wrote:
fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


If you can't figure it out, just look another way...


There are almost as many props to Larry Bird than to Kobe, and you can't accuse Laker fans to be Bird's fans...



There is really no need to diminish James, since everybody knows that almost all of what he has done is thanks to the league's help every single day since he came into the league. Talk about a manufactured superstar.



Larry Bird is much more respected here , because he was better in every aspect of the game, except for a little more defense James played during Miami years. Shooting, passing, not to mention a way bigger killer instinct and a far better competition he had, make Larry Bird a better player with a better career than James. Bird didn't need referees' help all the times.


James , instead, has been pushed ad nauseam to make everybody believe he is better than he is, and so many times he failed , even with all this help.


I have made a lot of examples as why James hasn't won a single championship without key referees mistakes ( not to mention he was given the last on a "Silver platter").

I want to add that they tried to help him other times failing to make him a champion : here's another scandal, that luckyly didn't go well ( but they tried very hard to give him the 2009 championship):





Well, this is an example of why threads like this grind to a halt.

Personally, I would have been interested in understanding a framework for evaluating players.

But once the names Lebron and Kobe are tossed into the framework, people get emotional, unleash generic rants, and the thread derails.

I would have preferred if the OP had explained his framework using players who don't make people emotional -- say, Patrick Ewing, Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, Rick Barry and Dominique Wilkens.

Then the discussion would have focused on the evaluation system, rather than people's feelings about particular players.



Generic rants ... I think you should be careful when you say something like that . I was not talking about kobe at all, but about a player who was our biggest rival : Larry Bird. I lived the Bird-Magic rivalry, and I hated Bird at that time. Now I respect him as a fierce competitor of our beloved team, and I think he has been a better player than James.

Why can't you accept other opinions without getting hurt? Because you call me emotional, but you are hurt when the someone tells the what he thinks about James : if you weren't emotionally hurt by my comparison between James and Bird, you wouldn't even have answered to my post( or maybe you could have offered another opinion on the matter...)
lmao. Like I said before, eventhough Kobe name was not mentioned in your previous post, some frequent flyers here would DRAG KOBE NAME into BIRD vs LEBRON COMPARISON.
_________________
Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
activeverb wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:

luke is exactly right here. lebron is officiated as if he's as fragile as curry, then everyone talks about how strong he is and how much of a beast. those videos are very revealing (there are many more). How av can say that officiating mistakes balance out equally, or that all rings are equal...ridiculous. Lebron's career would basically be destroyed if the officials called just one thing...his off arm pushoff on drives (he even does it in that video). he does it like every time. That should tell everyone that he is officiated favorably, because who else gets away with the years on end? (curry has been getting away with it a lot lately, but surprise! he's been overhyped lately also). Lebron would be reduced to a literally pathetic player if that was called. All these "greatest" questions as of late...to realize how crazy it is, whenever we wonder "is lebron better than jerry west" anything like that...just switch their positions. Imagine Jerry West doing what Lebron does...teaming up with other greats TWICE...getting away with a specific foul throughout a career, etc etc. Lebron is the most silver plattered plate in history, second is duncan.


Like I said, generic rants make my eyes glaze over.

do you consider anything over 140 characters a rant?


Nah, babe. I read entire books. A generic rant isn't about length -- it's about someone who just cuts and pastes the same criticism of a player into every thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Theseus
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 13734

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
Shlumpledink wrote:
Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball.


Exactly, unless you are comparing actual numbers (Rings, MVP's Scoring, rebounds, etc.) it is all subjective.

Now, when many people and so-called basketball experts subjectively agree, then people tend to elevate that person.

Case in point: I lived-through and saw nearly every televised game that Magic Johnson played and living in So. Cal. saw very few Michael Jordan games and no one will ever convince me that Jordan was better than Magic, sure Jordan won (1) more ring than Magic, but Magic was in the Finals 9 of his first 12 years! And while Magic may have had a better supporting cast than Michael, I also believe that Magic played and won against way better teams than Michael did!

So there...

Also, I would NOT include LeBron in any of my Best or Greatest lists, hell I would pick Larry Bird over Lebron!


I've made similar arguments to yours, but I saw less of Magic and more of Jordan. I just think Magic literally makes everyone he plays with better. I think Jordan's greatness was aided by a variety of factors, but is usually attributed to his greatness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:33 pm    Post subject:

Shlumpledink wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
Shlumpledink wrote:
Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball.


Exactly, unless you are comparing actual numbers (Rings, MVP's Scoring, rebounds, etc.) it is all subjective.

Now, when many people and so-called basketball experts subjectively agree, then people tend to elevate that person.

Case in point: I lived-through and saw nearly every televised game that Magic Johnson played and living in So. Cal. saw very few Michael Jordan games and no one will ever convince me that Jordan was better than Magic, sure Jordan won (1) more ring than Magic, but Magic was in the Finals 9 of his first 12 years! And while Magic may have had a better supporting cast than Michael, I also believe that Magic played and won against way better teams than Michael did!

So there...

Also, I would NOT include LeBron in any of my Best or Greatest lists, hell I would pick Larry Bird over Lebron!


I've made similar arguments to yours, but I saw less of Magic and more of Jordan. I just think Magic literally makes everyone he plays with better. I think Jordan's greatness was aided by a variety of factors, but is usually attributed to his greatness.


I agree with you. The idea that a player "makes his teammates better" is thrown around a lot. But I think Magic is really the only player in NBA history that I think there is a strong case that's true. For every other great player, you can always cherrypick examples of guys who produced more as his teammate, but Magic is the only one who this really holds up with consistently, statistically.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
laffertydaniel
Rookie
Rookie


Joined: 28 Jul 2016
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject:

So we gonna ignore the missed call on the LeBron drive and the terrible 3pt free throw call against James down the stretch of game 7? The two most egregious bad calls down the stretch not only go against James team, they went against James, personally.

You people have to grow up and face reality sometime
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
moonriver24
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:37 am    Post subject:

Shlumpledink wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
Shlumpledink wrote:
Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball.


Exactly, unless you are comparing actual numbers (Rings, MVP's Scoring, rebounds, etc.) it is all subjective.

Now, when many people and so-called basketball experts subjectively agree, then people tend to elevate that person.

Case in point: I lived-through and saw nearly every televised game that Magic Johnson played and living in So. Cal. saw very few Michael Jordan games and no one will ever convince me that Jordan was better than Magic, sure Jordan won (1) more ring than Magic, but Magic was in the Finals 9 of his first 12 years! And while Magic may have had a better supporting cast than Michael, I also believe that Magic played and won against way better teams than Michael did!

So there...

Also, I would NOT include LeBron in any of my Best or Greatest lists, hell I would pick Larry Bird over Lebron!


I've made similar arguments to yours, but I saw less of Magic and more of Jordan. I just think Magic literally makes everyone he plays with better. I think Jordan's greatness was aided by a variety of factors, but is usually attributed to his greatness.

Not sure. That guy (MJ) won six rings and retired immediately after the first threepeat. He was out in his prime for two seasons he could have won easily had he not retired. You can talk all you want about Magic making teammates better or not. I think it's more of a system product.

Proof? Imagine who would be more successful in the following scenarios:

Magic plus 2005 ~ 2007 Lakers
MJ plus the same team.
Kobe plus the same team

Well, we have seen what kobe had done with the team in those eras. I just dont believe Magic would make Smush n the gang better than Kobe had. Nor would MJ be more succesful.

MJ and Magic made the games easier in their own ways. That was why they won multiple rings. Kobe made the games easier for his teammates in his own unique ways. Thats why he won multiple rings. However, among the three, Kobe could make the most out of the least. It is not a theory. We have witnessed it. Kobe can pla in any system and be successful. This is the reason I choose Kobe as the GOAT. Bar none.
_________________
Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144412
Location: The Gold Coast

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:38 am    Post subject:

Luke wrote:
fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


If you can't figure it out, just look another way...


There are almost as many props to Larry Bird than to Kobe, and you can't accuse Laker fans to be Bird's fans...



There is really no need to diminish James, since everybody knows that almost all of what he has done is thanks to the league's help every single day since he came into the league. Talk about a manufactured superstar.



Larry Bird is much more respected here , because he was better in every aspect of the game, except for a little more defense James played during Miami years. Shooting, passing, not to mention a way bigger killer instinct and a far better competition he had, make Larry Bird a better player with a better career than James. Bird didn't need referees' help all the times.


James , instead, has been pushed ad nauseam to make everybody believe he is better than he is, and so many times he failed , even with all this help.


I have made a lot of examples as why James hasn't won a single championship without key referees mistakes ( not to mention he was given the last on a "Silver platter").

I want to add that they tried to help him other times failing to make him a champion : here's another scandal, that luckyly didn't go well ( but they tried very hard to give him the 2009 championship):





Same old blah, blah blah, Lebron was gifted everything, Kobe won despite the world being against him. Wash, rinse, repeat. And I will blow your premise out of the water, I was a Laker fan who was also a Bird fan, so that statement is, well, completely wrong. As we have come to expect.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Luke
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 5004
Location: Deep Europe

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:23 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Luke wrote:
fan4life wrote:
The straw grasping is strong in this thread

I can't figure out if the ultimate intent of this thread is to prop-up Kobe, diminish Lebron, or a combination of both.


If you can't figure it out, just look another way...


There are almost as many props to Larry Bird than to Kobe, and you can't accuse Laker fans to be Bird's fans...



There is really no need to diminish James, since everybody knows that almost all of what he has done is thanks to the league's help every single day since he came into the league. Talk about a manufactured superstar.



Larry Bird is much more respected here , because he was better in every aspect of the game, except for a little more defense James played during Miami years. Shooting, passing, not to mention a way bigger killer instinct and a far better competition he had, make Larry Bird a better player with a better career than James. Bird didn't need referees' help all the times.


James , instead, has been pushed ad nauseam to make everybody believe he is better than he is, and so many times he failed , even with all this help.


I have made a lot of examples as why James hasn't won a single championship without key referees mistakes ( not to mention he was given the last on a "Silver platter").

I want to add that they tried to help him other times failing to make him a champion : here's another scandal, that luckyly didn't go well ( but they tried very hard to give him the 2009 championship):





Same old blah, blah blah, Lebron was gifted everything, Kobe won despite the world being against him. Wash, rinse, repeat. And I will blow your premise out of the water, I was a Laker fan who was also a Bird fan, so that statement is, well, completely wrong. As we have come to expect.


Not blah blah, I talk about facts, and I show facts, as you can see in my post . And I didn't talk about Kobe at all. Obviously , you die hard James' fans always try to drag Kobe into something James related ( and you are the one who keep repeating the same old songs...) , even when we are talking about somebody else. I have a new information for you: I don't care if you try to put Kobe into the discussion to retaliate, only because I get your "king" exposed : I will continue to give my opinion until we have freedom of speech...

By the way, I don't think James was gifted everything. He has worked hard to try to reach his goals. He is a great player. That's why I would like to see him have the same rules as the other players. I will never know how good he really is until he is left alone with his game like almost everybody else.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Theseus
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 13734

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
Shlumpledink wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
Shlumpledink wrote:
Best player I ever saw was Hakeem Olajuwon. People will place Tim Duncan ahead of him on their top 10 lists, but I still think Hakeem Olajuwon is better at basketball.


Exactly, unless you are comparing actual numbers (Rings, MVP's Scoring, rebounds, etc.) it is all subjective.

Now, when many people and so-called basketball experts subjectively agree, then people tend to elevate that person.

Case in point: I lived-through and saw nearly every televised game that Magic Johnson played and living in So. Cal. saw very few Michael Jordan games and no one will ever convince me that Jordan was better than Magic, sure Jordan won (1) more ring than Magic, but Magic was in the Finals 9 of his first 12 years! And while Magic may have had a better supporting cast than Michael, I also believe that Magic played and won against way better teams than Michael did!

So there...

Also, I would NOT include LeBron in any of my Best or Greatest lists, hell I would pick Larry Bird over Lebron!


I've made similar arguments to yours, but I saw less of Magic and more of Jordan. I just think Magic literally makes everyone he plays with better. I think Jordan's greatness was aided by a variety of factors, but is usually attributed to his greatness.

Not sure. That guy (MJ) won six rings and retired immediately after the first threepeat. He was out in his prime for two seasons he could have won easily had he not retired. You can talk all you want about Magic making teammates better or not. I think it's more of a system product.

Proof? Imagine who would be more successful in the following scenarios:

Magic plus 2005 ~ 2007 Lakers
MJ plus the same team.
Kobe plus the same team

Well, we have seen what kobe had done with the team in those eras. I just dont believe Magic would make Smush n the gang better than Kobe had. Nor would MJ be more succesful.

MJ and Magic made the games easier in their own ways. That was why they won multiple rings. Kobe made the games easier for his teammates in his own unique ways. Thats why he won multiple rings. However, among the three, Kobe could make the most out of the least. It is not a theory. We have witnessed it. Kobe can pla in any system and be successful. This is the reason I choose Kobe as the GOAT. Bar none.


Jordan could have easily won in the two or three years between 3peats, his team almost made it to the finals without him so it makes sense, but the fact that his team did that well without him has to count for something.

Also, not for nothing, Jordan would have had to beat Hakeem's Rockets, who Jordan didn't have a lot of success against. Then if he loses in the finals we don't talk about being undefeated in the finals, which is part of his mystique to this day, that the knocks on him are these sorts of hypotheticals.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:41 pm    Post subject:

Shlumpledink wrote:
Jordan could have easily won in the two or three years between 3peats, his team almost made it to the finals without him so it makes sense, but the fact that his team did that well without him has to count for something.


They didn't do that well without him. They added Kukoc and Harper and didn't even make the conference finals.


Shlumpledink wrote:
Also, not for nothing, Jordan would have had to beat Hakeem's Rockets, who Jordan didn't have a lot of success against. Then if he loses in the finals we don't talk about being undefeated in the finals, which is part of his mystique to this day, that the knocks on him are these sorts of hypotheticals.



This is true. The Rockets had the Bulls number. No cinch the Bulls beat them in the two lost years. Jordan might have dodged a bullet there!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 13704

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

They didn't do that well without him. They added Kukoc and Harper and didn't even make the conference finals.


I think losing the game's best player (arguably the GOAT) and still winning 50+ games is doing pretty well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:30 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
activeverb wrote:

They didn't do that well without him. They added Kukoc and Harper and didn't even make the conference finals.


I think losing the game's best player (arguably the GOAT) and still winning 50+ games is doing pretty well.


Yeah. They lost Jordan, and picked up Ron Harper, Tony Kukoc and Steve Kerr, and still won a lot of regular season games. However you judge a team like the Bulls on the playoffs and they only made it to the second round.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
panamaniac
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 11236
Location: PTY

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
activeverb wrote:

They didn't do that well without him. They added Kukoc and Harper and didn't even make the conference finals.


I think losing the game's best player (arguably the GOAT) and still winning 50+ games is doing pretty well.


Yeah. They lost Jordan, and picked up Ron Harper, Tony Kukoc and Steve Kerr, and still won a lot of regular season games. However you judge a team like the Bulls on the playoffs and they only made it to the second round.


If not for this bogus call, they would've made it to the ECF.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 13704

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
activeverb wrote:

They didn't do that well without him. They added Kukoc and Harper and didn't even make the conference finals.


I think losing the game's best player (arguably the GOAT) and still winning 50+ games is doing pretty well.


Yeah. They lost Jordan, and picked up Ron Harper, Tony Kukoc and Steve Kerr, and still won a lot of regular season games. However you judge a team like the Bulls on the playoffs and they only made it to the second round.


I can't think of many instances where a team lost a player of Jordan's caliber and even made it to the playoffs. Harper, Kukoc and Kerr are ok players, but in no way offset losing arguably the best player ever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:12 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

I can't think of many instances where a team lost a player of Jordan's caliber and even made it to the playoffs.


I believe Magic left the Lakers and they made the playoffs; ditto Moses with the 76ers; Wilt with the Lakers; and Barkley with Phoenix.

Anyway, I think that about does it for me on this topic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB