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SuperboyReformed
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 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:44 pm Post subject: espn trying some revisionist history about the olympics last decade |
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http://espn.go.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/17122319/remembering-team-usa-began-turnaround
I'm someone who looks forward to the Olympics specifically to see how the NBA players perform in vastly different environments; something very helpful for drawing comparisons and seeing live examples of many "what if" scenarios that people like to think about. and it does so with actual gameplay; not inferences off box scores and pseudo-statistics.
So it's well known that the international losses in the early part of the decade were quite embarrassing. This article is talking about the turnaround since then. And guess what? Not a single mention of Duncan and Kobe. That's how disingenuous an article this is.
Duncan was supposed to be the savior of that team. And Lebron was supposed to be the young savior. These two failed miserably at something that was usually considered blowout victories on the way to a cakewalked gold medal.
This goes to the root of how protected the reputations of these two players are. There's a lot of effort invested in making sure these two are thought of as the same kind of great players as MJ, Magic, Kobe, all the goats. Well, they weren't able to win without the help they get in the NBA; whatever that means.
And when they started winning it was because of a shift in focus. The national team, coach k, everyone realized this isn't the cakewalk they thought. And Kobe came is as the NEW face of the team, effectively taking over DUncan's and Lebron's role (even though Lebron continually tried to act like he was still a co-leader or something...this was going on throughout the Olympics...it was sold to us as the start of their friendship whatever, but it seemed like insecurity to me). Kobe delivered as we know in what has to be considered a glorious performance.
Nothing about all this in the article.
instead, just a bunch of vague descriptions of a turnaround that resulted in gold medals and success. there's a part that seems like it is saying coach k made a strategic mistake by not giving lebron more responsibility, but he learned his lesson, and that was the turnaround that led to the bronze medal victory, and that changed everything. lol!! omg |
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the association
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I read the article ... per Coach K, the turnaround commenced in that bronze medal win over Argentina. Is he "in" on the conspiracy, too? |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: espn trying some revisionist history about the olympics last decade |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | http://espn.go.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/17122319/remembering-team-usa-began-turnaround
I'm someone who looks forward to the Olympics specifically to see how the NBA players perform in vastly different environments; something very helpful for drawing comparisons and seeing live examples of many "what if" scenarios that people like to think about. and it does so with actual gameplay; not inferences off box scores and pseudo-statistics.
So it's well known that the international losses in the early part of the decade were quite embarrassing. This article is talking about the turnaround since then. And guess what? Not a single mention of Duncan and Kobe. That's how disingenuous an article this is.
Duncan was supposed to be the savior of that team. And Lebron was supposed to be the young savior. These two failed miserably at something that was usually considered blowout victories on the way to a cakewalked gold medal.
This goes to the root of how protected the reputations of these two players are. There's a lot of effort invested in making sure these two are thought of as the same kind of great players as MJ, Magic, Kobe, all the goats. Well, they weren't able to win without the help they get in the NBA; whatever that means.
And when they started winning it was because of a shift in focus. The national team, coach k, everyone realized this isn't the cakewalk they thought. And Kobe came is as the NEW face of the team, effectively taking over DUncan's and Lebron's role (even though Lebron continually tried to act like he was still a co-leader or something...this was going on throughout the Olympics...it was sold to us as the start of their friendship whatever, but it seemed like insecurity to me). Kobe delivered as we know in what has to be considered a glorious performance.
Nothing about all this in the article.
instead, just a bunch of vague descriptions of a turnaround that resulted in gold medals and success. there's a part that seems like it is saying coach k made a strategic mistake by not giving lebron more responsibility, but he learned his lesson, and that was the turnaround that led to the bronze medal victory, and that changed everything. lol!! omg |
The piece is what I call a transcription article: the writer simply took down what Krzyzewski and Colangelo said in (probably) a very short interview and then wrote up their comments in a straightforward, linear way, very close to an edited transcription of the interviews.
If parts are vague, it's because they were vague. If players aren't mentioned or it doesn't contain opinions you wish it did, it's because neither of K or C mentioned the players or expressed the opinions you hold. |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| They lost in '06 with the same players, sans Kobe, and brought back Bronze. When Kobe joined, he changed the culture and brought back Gold. |
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rwongega
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: espn trying some revisionist history about the olympics last decade |
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| activeverb wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | http://espn.go.com/olympics/basketball/story/_/id/17122319/remembering-team-usa-began-turnaround
I'm someone who looks forward to the Olympics specifically to see how the NBA players perform in vastly different environments; something very helpful for drawing comparisons and seeing live examples of many "what if" scenarios that people like to think about. and it does so with actual gameplay; not inferences off box scores and pseudo-statistics.
So it's well known that the international losses in the early part of the decade were quite embarrassing. This article is talking about the turnaround since then. And guess what? Not a single mention of Duncan and Kobe. That's how disingenuous an article this is.
Duncan was supposed to be the savior of that team. And Lebron was supposed to be the young savior. These two failed miserably at something that was usually considered blowout victories on the way to a cakewalked gold medal.
This goes to the root of how protected the reputations of these two players are. There's a lot of effort invested in making sure these two are thought of as the same kind of great players as MJ, Magic, Kobe, all the goats. Well, they weren't able to win without the help they get in the NBA; whatever that means.
And when they started winning it was because of a shift in focus. The national team, coach k, everyone realized this isn't the cakewalk they thought. And Kobe came is as the NEW face of the team, effectively taking over DUncan's and Lebron's role (even though Lebron continually tried to act like he was still a co-leader or something...this was going on throughout the Olympics...it was sold to us as the start of their friendship whatever, but it seemed like insecurity to me). Kobe delivered as we know in what has to be considered a glorious performance.
Nothing about all this in the article.
instead, just a bunch of vague descriptions of a turnaround that resulted in gold medals and success. there's a part that seems like it is saying coach k made a strategic mistake by not giving lebron more responsibility, but he learned his lesson, and that was the turnaround that led to the bronze medal victory, and that changed everything. lol!! omg |
The piece is what I call a transcription article: the writer simply took down what Krzyzewski and Colangelo said in (probably) a very short interview and then wrote up their comments in a straightforward, linear way, very close to an edited transcription of the interviews.
If parts are vague, it's because they were vague. If players aren't mentioned or it doesn't contain opinions you wish it did, it's because neither of K or C mentioned the players or expressed the opinions you hold. |
that's fine. so what? i'm not interested in why or how they make the article.
they wrote it, put it out there...and I'm saying whatever they did, they are strongly inferring that the turnaround was due to things they wrote about. and talking about the turnaround without talking about duncan and kobe is just weird. it's not like we don't know espn. they aren't ever going to trash on duncan, and they aren't going out of their way to prop up kobe.
should they publish the article? should they write it differently? i don't care, they can do whatever they want. all i know is that it was a disingenuous article not just standalone, but all of us are very familiar with espn's tone in this sort of thing. and as a laker fan, it's annoying. |
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the association
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activeverb
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: espn trying some revisionist history about the olympics last decade |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | it's not like we don't know espn. they aren't ever going to trash on duncan, and they aren't going out of their way to prop up kobe. |
It's more likely that K and C simply didn't mention Duncan and Kobe in their interviews. |
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The_Dynasty24
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Not everything is a conspiracy.....
| Quote: | "This whole thing wouldn't have started the way it did without him," Krzyzewski said of the 2008 gold medal Bryant helped the team win. "With just under nine minutes to go in Beijing against Spain, it's a two-point game and we're in a time out and he took over and so did Dwyane Wade.
"That's why I'm still coaching. Believe me. I recognize those moments," he said. |
This was also on espn the other day. It just so happens that this was an article with a different take on the situation. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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this article is clearly much better. talks about how they ended up with that roster in 2004, good stuff.
dynasty, you need to understand the definition of conspiracy. a media outlet with preferences is not a conspiracy. if fox news bashes democrats and pumps up republicans, that's not a conspiracy. |
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focus
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, here you have a good memory. This was regarded as a Duncan failure in some part at the time with the young guys sort of not up to snuff then also. Kobe was definitely a key part of that resurrection. It is fair though to consider these guys who failed young and then stuck to it for the rebound and beyond, Melo, Lebron, Wade (and Wade was very big too that Kobe year) as a huge Olympic story too. Kobe was already prime when he came as sort of a fixer, tone-setter the guy setting a standard these guys quickly evolved too (not just those summers, but as their careers and success progressed). So I see both sides. But yes Duncan's surprising fail with those talented young guys was a major part of the story.To me that is a blip on his career story, though. I can see where you're coming from on the why isn't that mentioned angle. News n Views has an article where Kryseekwski reflects thoroughly on Kobe's impact too. |
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The_Dynasty24
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
this article is clearly much better. talks about how they ended up with that roster in 2004, good stuff.
dynasty, you need to understand the definition of conspiracy. a media outlet with preferences is not a conspiracy. if fox news bashes democrats and pumps up republicans, that's not a conspiracy. |
I understand what conspiracy means. If you had some ESPN has an east coast bias, I probably wouldn't have said must about it.
But the following statement:
There's a lot of effort invested in making sure these two are thought of as the same kind of great players as MJ, Magic, Kobe, all the goats.
Sure sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. ESPN has been elevating and protecting the legacies of Duncan and Lebron all of this years....that doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory? ESPN doesn't give a (bleep) about their legacies, they simply care about their profit margins.
But if you can explain to me how this isn't a conspiracy theory, I'm wiling to listen. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| The_Dynasty24 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: |
this article is clearly much better. talks about how they ended up with that roster in 2004, good stuff.
dynasty, you need to understand the definition of conspiracy. a media outlet with preferences is not a conspiracy. if fox news bashes democrats and pumps up republicans, that's not a conspiracy. |
I understand what conspiracy means. If you had some ESPN has an east coast bias, I probably wouldn't have said must about it.
But the following statement:
There's a lot of effort invested in making sure these two are thought of as the same kind of great players as MJ, Magic, Kobe, all the goats.
Sure sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. ESPN has been elevating and protecting the legacies of Duncan and Lebron all of this years....that doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory? ESPN doesn't give a (bleep) about their legacies, they simply care about their profit margins.
But if you can explain to me how this isn't a conspiracy theory, I'm wiling to listen. |
fox news speaking kindly of republican candidates is not a conspiracy.
espn speaking kindly of duncan or boston, etc. is not a conspiracy.
conspiracy is like for some reason it's illegal to color a player negatively or positively, and they do it somehow anyway through some deals with law enforcement or something. that's a conspiracy. portraying kobe as a villain and duncan as a humble savior is not a conspiracy. |
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The_Dynasty24
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | The_Dynasty24 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: |
this article is clearly much better. talks about how they ended up with that roster in 2004, good stuff.
dynasty, you need to understand the definition of conspiracy. a media outlet with preferences is not a conspiracy. if fox news bashes democrats and pumps up republicans, that's not a conspiracy. |
I understand what conspiracy means. If you had some ESPN has an east coast bias, I probably wouldn't have said must about it.
But the following statement:
There's a lot of effort invested in making sure these two are thought of as the same kind of great players as MJ, Magic, Kobe, all the goats.
Sure sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. ESPN has been elevating and protecting the legacies of Duncan and Lebron all of this years....that doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory? ESPN doesn't give a (bleep) about their legacies, they simply care about their profit margins.
But if you can explain to me how this isn't a conspiracy theory, I'm wiling to listen. |
fox news speaking kindly of republican candidates is not a conspiracy.
espn speaking kindly of duncan or boston, etc. is not a conspiracy.
conspiracy is like for some reason it's illegal to color a player negatively or positively, and they do it somehow anyway through some deals with law enforcement or something. that's a conspiracy. portraying kobe as a villain and duncan as a humble savior is not a conspiracy. |
Ok man, whatever  The semantics doesn't really matter to me. Fine, this proposed agenda that ESPN has doesn't make sense to me. Is agenda a better word? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Dynasty, you should realize that Superboy is never going to admit that he is part of a conspiracy to elevate Kobe over Duncan and Lebron. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Dynasty, you should realize that Superboy is never going to admit that he is part of a conspiracy to elevate Kobe over Duncan and Lebron. |
i wish. you just described my dream job. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | Yes, here you have a good memory. This was regarded as a Duncan failure in some part at the time with the young guys sort of not up to snuff then also. Kobe was definitely a key part of that resurrection. It is fair though to consider these guys who failed young and then stuck to it for the rebound and beyond, Melo, Lebron, Wade (and Wade was very big too that Kobe year) as a huge Olympic story too. Kobe was already prime when he came as sort of a fixer, tone-setter the guy setting a standard these guys quickly evolved too (not just those summers, but as their careers and success progressed). So I see both sides. But yes Duncan's surprising fail with those talented young guys was a major part of the story.To me that is a blip on his career story, though. I can see where you're coming from on the why isn't that mentioned angle. News n Views has an article where Kryseekwski reflects thoroughly on Kobe's impact too. |
precisely.
Wade did really well also, yes. I harp on the Olympics because it's really the only time we see these guys in different settings in real situations. It's also usually pretty surprising who does and doesn't do well in the olympics. In the past few, the players that have stood out were carmelo, odom, kobe, wade (as far as the superstars). duncan, i'd say, had the most embarrasing performance. and lebron was not terribly great until kobe came along. and even cp3 was rather embarrasing, iirc.
melo's consistency throughout the olympics is surprising, given all the factors and especially his rep. It's the opposite of duncan. here's a guy who has a rep of just not reaching his potential, yet he is spectacular in the olympics (multiple olympics). and i think that's because he just got stuck in an unlucky nba career. he came in with lebron, and lebron got ALL they hype, and lebron really isn't better than him, especially in scoring (which is no small thing). In the olympics, with all the hype sort of neutralized, lebron shines...and duncan and lebron do not. so it's a very interesting study for me. I attribute to a very simple thing...carmelo can hit the shots if he's open. not necessarily so with the other guys. this is why the best scorer is the best. |
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mirak
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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There's a reason we called him LeBronze.
Kobe was a difference maker. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | Yes, here you have a good memory. This was regarded as a Duncan failure in some part at the time with the young guys sort of not up to snuff then also. Kobe was definitely a key part of that resurrection. It is fair though to consider these guys who failed young and then stuck to it for the rebound and beyond, Melo, Lebron, Wade (and Wade was very big too that Kobe year) as a huge Olympic story too. Kobe was already prime when he came as sort of a fixer, tone-setter the guy setting a standard these guys quickly evolved too (not just those summers, but as their careers and success progressed). So I see both sides. But yes Duncan's surprising fail with those talented young guys was a major part of the story.To me that is a blip on his career story, though. I can see where you're coming from on the why isn't that mentioned angle. News n Views has an article where Kryseekwski reflects thoroughly on Kobe's impact too. |
I've seen opinions on both sides of the aisle:
1. Some folks consider the 2004 Olympics a big personal failure for Duncan and kind of delight that he only has a bronze.
2. Some folks think Duncan himself played OK but was just a victim of a bad US system (which was quickly changed) and FIBA rules (which were changed the next Olympics).
My general impression is that #2 is the larger opinion, but not that many people really care all that much about this. |
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | focus wrote: | | Yes, here you have a good memory. This was regarded as a Duncan failure in some part at the time with the young guys sort of not up to snuff then also. Kobe was definitely a key part of that resurrection. It is fair though to consider these guys who failed young and then stuck to it for the rebound and beyond, Melo, Lebron, Wade (and Wade was very big too that Kobe year) as a huge Olympic story too. Kobe was already prime when he came as sort of a fixer, tone-setter the guy setting a standard these guys quickly evolved too (not just those summers, but as their careers and success progressed). So I see both sides. But yes Duncan's surprising fail with those talented young guys was a major part of the story.To me that is a blip on his career story, though. I can see where you're coming from on the why isn't that mentioned angle. News n Views has an article where Kryseekwski reflects thoroughly on Kobe's impact too. |
I've seen opinions on both sides of the aisle:
1. Some folks consider the 2004 Olympics a big personal failure for Duncan and kind of delight that he only has a bronze.
2. Some folks think Duncan himself played OK but was just a victim of a bad US system (which was quickly changed) and FIBA rules (which were changed the next Olympics).
My general impression is that #2 is the larger opinion, but not that many people really care all that much about this. |
He had Larry Brown and his boy Pop tagging along to make him feel at home. Team still choked. But if you don't want to use Timmy's lack of olympic gold against him, that's cool. Personally I don't think it's that important. It's a nice "cherry on top" for guys like MJ, Kobe or LeBron, and it can also be somewhat of an honorary badge for guys like Chuck or Mailman who never won anything. However, please don't try to make Tim look like the hero after a clearly underwhelming showing on the international stage. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| JUST-MING wrote: | | They lost in '06 with the same players, sans Kobe, and brought back Bronze. When Kobe joined, he changed the culture and brought back Gold. |
After the initial Dream Team, I think there was a decline in mentality where they thought they could just put some random superstars and expect them to automatically get gold....it worked up until the 2000 Olympics, by 2004 the wheels had fallen off the bus. That was as close as they could get to a college team when you had rookies like Lebron, Melo and Wade on team. I think we are getting dangerously close this Olympics, but they will probably get Gold anyways, because the international competition is pretty weak this year. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| The Grind wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | focus wrote: | | Yes, here you have a good memory. This was regarded as a Duncan failure in some part at the time with the young guys sort of not up to snuff then also. Kobe was definitely a key part of that resurrection. It is fair though to consider these guys who failed young and then stuck to it for the rebound and beyond, Melo, Lebron, Wade (and Wade was very big too that Kobe year) as a huge Olympic story too. Kobe was already prime when he came as sort of a fixer, tone-setter the guy setting a standard these guys quickly evolved too (not just those summers, but as their careers and success progressed). So I see both sides. But yes Duncan's surprising fail with those talented young guys was a major part of the story.To me that is a blip on his career story, though. I can see where you're coming from on the why isn't that mentioned angle. News n Views has an article where Kryseekwski reflects thoroughly on Kobe's impact too. |
I've seen opinions on both sides of the aisle:
1. Some folks consider the 2004 Olympics a big personal failure for Duncan and kind of delight that he only has a bronze.
2. Some folks think Duncan himself played OK but was just a victim of a bad US system (which was quickly changed) and FIBA rules (which were changed the next Olympics).
My general impression is that #2 is the larger opinion, but not that many people really care all that much about this. |
He had Larry Brown and his boy Pop tagging along to make him feel at home. Team still choked. But if you don't want to use Timmy's lack of olympic gold against him, that's cool. Personally I don't think it's that important. It's a nice "cherry on top" for guys like MJ, Kobe or LeBron, and it can also be somewhat of an honorary badge for guys like Chuck or Mailman who never won anything. However, please don't try to make Tim look like the hero after a clearly underwhelming showing on the international stage. |
I wasn't giving my opinion. I was simply making my observation on the general reaction I've seen regarding the 2004 Olympic.
If you want to know what I think personally: I enjoyed all the hoopla of the original 1992 dream team with Magic, Jordan, Bird, et al, but that was the last time I paid any attention to Olympic basketball.
I don't really have any idea what happened in 2004, other than knowing the USA lost, and I never give the Olympics a thought in evaluating NBA players careers. In fact, I think 1992 was the last time I paid the Olympics any attention at all. |
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Fair enough, but two things are certain: Duncan was disappointing, and the team, despite a wealth of talent was disappointing. However much stock you put into int'l bball, if you bring it up, you can't let Duncan off the hook. That was his team with his coaching staff and they failed. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Grind wrote: | | Fair enough, but two things are certain: Duncan was disappointing, and the team, despite a wealth of talent was disappointing. However much stock you put into int'l bball, if you bring it up, you can't let Duncan off the hook. That was his team with his coaching staff and they failed. |
You got me curious enough to go back and read the stories after the actual Olympic game losses. And, you know, they pretty much focus on the US' bad passing, poor 3-point shooting, and poor defense of 3-point shooting. All I can say is at the time the stories didn't really focus much attention on Duncan personally as a big problem of the team (although I have seen mention of his foul problems).
And since then, it seems to me the general sentiment has been the problem was assembling a poor team and not giving it time to practice together or develop cohesion. So, yeah, by and large I do think Duncan has been let off the hook. Whether that's reasonable is in the eye of the beholder.
Anyway, I don't think Olympics basketball has much affect on how people evaluate NBA players careers. |
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