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Jim99187
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 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: |
an inefficient 1 but hey blame it on byron |
He had a TS% of 58.4. That's top 10 in the league for guards. Even with Byron.
There are plenty of things to critique Lou for, but inefficiency...? |
This.
Most folks seems to find it tough to believe the free throw line is the most efficient way to score because it is ugly, but works.
His size and lack of defense is what keeps Lou away from being starging material, but it's not fair to call him an inefficient ball hog. |
ask Derozan or Harden if it works when it really counts in playoffs, it doesnt. |
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Capt.Skyhook
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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I won't fully judge Lou on that mess he was thrown into last season.
He was miscast as a PG, a starting PG at that. The offense benefited nobody and at times he had to be the team's No. 1 option for long stretches of games. None of that should happen this season.
We don't know what Luke has in store for Lou yet. He might be interested in someone with iso scoring ability coming off the bench for 22-25 minutes a game. We just have to see. |
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Laker's Fan
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Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 12875
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | That's not really the role I picture Calderon. He average 7 points in 28 minutes last year. I'm picturing we give him about half that, 14 minutes or so, as backup PG. So maybe he averages a couple of buckets per game. He'll be good for big shots here and there but offense wise I'd expect him to be more setting the table for scorers around him and bring good solid, vet steadiness. Rotations will be interesting. (Wish we had a defensive guard off the bench...) |
I agree with the bolded and would add the word veteran before the word defensive given the relative vet/youth split of the roster. Thabo feels like the guy who checks the most boxes (veteran, tough wing defender, experience in a modern offense, expiring contract) while being possible to attain.
Atlanta is in a transition period. Next year Milsap, Thabo, Korver and Splitter are unrestricted fee agents and Schroder and Hardaway Jr are restricted fee agents. They've already begun resetting their wing rotation paying Bazemore, trading for Hardaway and drafting T Prince and D Bembry. They hit reset at PG moving Teague and promoting Schroder. But they are also trying to compete now replacing Horford with Howard and bringing in Jack, who tore his ACL in January and will 33 the day before the season starts, as a vet backup PG. I suppose you can do that in the East.
Not sure exactly what would get a Thabo deal done. Calderon would be a good vet backup and play well in Budz system with his passing and shooting. But that isn't enough value for Thabo. Lou would be an expensive piece to give up and the value margin goes the other way. Like Howard, Lou is a local product who grew up 20 minutes outside Atlanta. He is also the type of ball handling guard Budz could make an important part of their offense. If you consider the next two years a Lou/Thabo deal could help Atlanta manage their roster building efforts but LA would probably want something more unless they feel a need for the extra cap space next year.
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Thabo couldn't even guard Lou. Not sure if I'm down with that swap unless Atl throws in picks, since the cancer is sure to bring the team down. Even Golden State brought Barbosa off the bench. |
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker's Fan wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | That's not really the role I picture Calderon. He average 7 points in 28 minutes last year. I'm picturing we give him about half that, 14 minutes or so, as backup PG. So maybe he averages a couple of buckets per game. He'll be good for big shots here and there but offense wise I'd expect him to be more setting the table for scorers around him and bring good solid, vet steadiness. Rotations will be interesting. (Wish we had a defensive guard off the bench...) |
I agree with the bolded and would add the word veteran before the word defensive given the relative vet/youth split of the roster. Thabo feels like the guy who checks the most boxes (veteran, tough wing defender, experience in a modern offense, expiring contract) while being possible to attain.
Atlanta is in a transition period. Next year Milsap, Thabo, Korver and Splitter are unrestricted fee agents and Schroder and Hardaway Jr are restricted fee agents. They've already begun resetting their wing rotation paying Bazemore, trading for Hardaway and drafting T Prince and D Bembry. They hit reset at PG moving Teague and promoting Schroder. But they are also trying to compete now replacing Horford with Howard and bringing in Jack, who tore his ACL in January and will 33 the day before the season starts, as a vet backup PG. I suppose you can do that in the East.
Not sure exactly what would get a Thabo deal done. Calderon would be a good vet backup and play well in Budz system with his passing and shooting. But that isn't enough value for Thabo. Lou would be an expensive piece to give up and the value margin goes the other way. Like Howard, Lou is a local product who grew up 20 minutes outside Atlanta. He is also the type of ball handling guard Budz could make an important part of their offense. If you consider the next two years a Lou/Thabo deal could help Atlanta manage their roster building efforts but LA would probably want something more unless they feel a need for the extra cap space next year. |
thats 1 of the reasons i want Harkless. the guy can guard 3/4 positions |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Early offense opportunities Lou will thrive in. He's already efficient based on analytic numbers. I think those numbers will be even better in Luke's offense.
I see him doing alot of the same things Barbosa did for GS.
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KindCrippler2000
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | Early offense opportunities Lou will thrive in. He's already efficient based on analytic numbers. I think those numbers will be even better in Luke's offense.
I see him doing alot of the same things Barbosa did for GS. |
LeBron repeatedly yelled to "get ball to who he's guarding" while looking in Curry's direction. One time #Cavs did & JR hit 3. LeBron nodded
Replace Curry with Lou, who is 2 inches shorter and one of the worst defenders in the league, and that will be the offensive gameplan for all the well-coached teams we face. I can't see any scenario in the playoffs working out with Lou on the roster tbh. I don't hate Lou. I just despise his game.
Barbosa is one of the quickest players in the league, if not the quickest. He has the lateral speed to keep up with most players, so the comparisons don't make sense to me. Barbosa got playing time because he defended well enough to earn it.
Last edited by KindCrippler2000 on Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker's Fan wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | That's not really the role I picture Calderon. He average 7 points in 28 minutes last year. I'm picturing we give him about half that, 14 minutes or so, as backup PG. So maybe he averages a couple of buckets per game. He'll be good for big shots here and there but offense wise I'd expect him to be more setting the table for scorers around him and bring good solid, vet steadiness. Rotations will be interesting. (Wish we had a defensive guard off the bench...) |
I agree with the bolded and would add the word veteran before the word defensive given the relative vet/youth split of the roster. Thabo feels like the guy who checks the most boxes (veteran, tough wing defender, experience in a modern offense, expiring contract) while being possible to attain.
Atlanta is in a transition period. Next year Milsap, Thabo, Korver and Splitter are unrestricted fee agents and Schroder and Hardaway Jr are restricted fee agents. They've already begun resetting their wing rotation paying Bazemore, trading for Hardaway and drafting T Prince and D Bembry. They hit reset at PG moving Teague and promoting Schroder. But they are also trying to compete now replacing Horford with Howard and bringing in Jack, who tore his ACL in January and will 33 the day before the season starts, as a vet backup PG. I suppose you can do that in the East.
Not sure exactly what would get a Thabo deal done. Calderon would be a good vet backup and play well in Budz system with his passing and shooting. But that isn't enough value for Thabo. Lou would be an expensive piece to give up and the value margin goes the other way. Like Howard, Lou is a local product who grew up 20 minutes outside Atlanta. He is also the type of ball handling guard Budz could make an important part of their offense. If you consider the next two years a Lou/Thabo deal could help Atlanta manage their roster building efforts but LA would probably want something more unless they feel a need for the extra cap space next year. |
Atlanta dumped Lou a few years ago, why would Budenholzer want him back?
Here is an analysis of why Lou was traded from someone who had exposure to the internal dynamics in Atlanta at that time.
NBA PM: Lou Williams Excited to Join Raptors
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“I was actually in L.A. [when the trade happened] – I was in L.A. working out and at the same time having some quiet time with my family,” Williams told Basketball Insiders. “So I was out in L.A. and Danny Ferry gave me a call and said they were exploring some options. He didn’t want me to be blindsided. About three days later, I got traded to Toronto.
“I am excited to a part of a young core, I am excited be on a team that wants me, that has a high expectation level for me. My time here in Atlanta, I realized that they were going in a direction that probably didn’t fit my style of play and I probably didn’t fit Coach Bud’s style of play. I’m a guy that needs the ball to be effective and they really didn’t need that from me. They were building a different core of a basketball team. I felt like it worked out for both sides, they got some talented guys in making moves this offseason and I feel great about the fit that I’m in.”
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The next Summer, Toronto didn't make strong efforts to keep him.
NBA Lou Williams On Joining Lakers, Leaving Raptors
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Lou Williams: “Just to speak candidly, it caught me by surprise that we didn’t get something done. I made it clear that I wanted to be there and I thought, with the type of year that I had, the feeling would be mutual. Unfortunately, it wasn’t. I think they wanted to go in a different direction and become more of a defensive-minded team. With the way that the playoffs ended, I think it left a sour taste in management’s mouth and they went out and picked up defensive players. They got DeMarre [Carroll], they got Cory Joseph, they got [Bismack] Biyombo – guys who they feel like can help them on the defensive end. They told me, basically, that I could walk. That was unfortunate, but it’ll work out for both sides. They got a guy who is from Toronto, Canada who will replace me in Cory and now I have an opportunity to continue my career as well, so it worked out for everybody.”
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When Atlanta traded him, the reasoning is that he was a poor fit with the direction they wanted to go with their offense. When Toronto let him walk, they wanted improvement in their defense.
If either team felt they could significantly change Lou to what they wanted him to be, then he probably wouldn't be with the Lakers and would more likely still be with Atlanta or Toronto. Since he is soon to be 30, significantly changing Lou's game might not be that easy. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Early offense opportunities Lou will thrive in. He's already efficient based on analytic numbers. I think those numbers will be even better in Luke's offense.
I see him doing alot of the same things Barbosa did for GS. |
LeBron repeatedly yelled to "get ball to who he's guarding" while looking in Curry's direction. One time #Cavs did & JR hit 3. LeBron nodded
Replace Curry with Lou, who is 2 inches shorter and one of the worst defenders in the league, and that will be the offensive gameplan for all the well-coached teams we face. I can't see any scenario in the playoffs working out with Lou on the roster tbh. I don't hate Lou. I just despise his game.
Barbosa is one of the quickest players in the league, if not the quickest. He has the lateral speed to keep up with most players, so Lou will not be playing that role. Barbosa got playing time because he defended well enough to earn it. |
We aren't gonna make the finals (where your Lebron told everyone to pick on Curry example took place). We aren't even gonna make the playoffs.
But in the hypothetical scenario you describe, Lebron wouldn't have to tell his teammates to go at Lou. Because our whole backcourt rotation this year doesn't have 1 above average guard defender. All of our guards can be exposed for their lack of defense. It's not like there is some huge dropoff defensively between Lou and our other poor guard defenders.
Lou is quick. Probably not as quick as Barbosa. But in the open court I think he'll be just as efficient. Never really thought of Barbosa as a 2-way player. He's an offense first guy like Lou.
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oldlakerfan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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It will be interesting to see how Lou fits in the rotation and how he fits with the offense. It seems like JC will need to play point with Lou at the 2 but I also expect BI to get minutes at the 2.
I just don't see the fit but if we need a scorer on the 2nd unit he does fit the bill. He is a iso player and the ball dead ends to often when it gets in his hands. Luke is a really smart guy and Lou may be able to blend his game into the new system.
It will be interesting to see how he fits in and if he doesn't we should be able to trade him to a team where he fits better and get something decent in exchange. Since he is still here they must have a vision on how to use him. It will be interesting to see that vision. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| JUST-MING wrote: | | Thabo couldn't even guard Lou. Not sure if I'm down with that swap unless Atl throws in picks, since the cancer is sure to bring the team down. Even Golden State brought Barbosa off the bench. |
Thabo
2016 - 2017
$3,850,000
2017 - 2018
Free Agent
Lou
2016 - 2017
$7,000,000
2017 - 2018
$7,000,000
Why would Atlanta send out picks to bring back Lou who is owed more money and more years than Thabo? Atlanta dumped Lou a few years ago and Budenholzer is still there. |
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Early offense opportunities Lou will thrive in. He's already efficient based on analytic numbers. I think those numbers will be even better in Luke's offense.
I see him doing alot of the same things Barbosa did for GS. |
LeBron repeatedly yelled to "get ball to who he's guarding" while looking in Curry's direction. One time #Cavs did & JR hit 3. LeBron nodded
Replace Curry with Lou, who is 2 inches shorter and one of the worst defenders in the league, and that will be the offensive gameplan for all the well-coached teams we face. I can't see any scenario in the playoffs working out with Lou on the roster tbh. I don't hate Lou. I just despise his game.
Barbosa is one of the quickest players in the league, if not the quickest. He has the lateral speed to keep up with most players, so Lou will not be playing that role. Barbosa got playing time because he defended well enough to earn it. |
We aren't gonna make the finals (where your Lebron told everyone to pick on Curry example took place). We aren't even gonna make the playoffs.
But in the hypothetical scenario you describe, Lebron wouldn't have to tell his teammates to go at Lou. Because our whole backcourt rotation this year doesn't have 1 above average guard defender. All of our guards can be exposed for their lack of defense. It's not like there is some huge dropoff defensively between Lou and our other poor guard defenders.
Lou is quick. Probably not as quick as Barbosa. But in the open court I think he'll be just as efficient. Never really thought of Barbosa as a 2-way player. He's an offense first guy like Lou. |
Great... another crystal ball post. Please tell me what else that crystal ball of yours shows for the Lakers next season. I'm genuinely curious because you clearly have ALL the answers.
1) It's not a scenario that happens in the finals. It's the (bleep) NBA. Teams exploit mismatches on a nightly basis. That's how you win games. Luke is going for size and versatility for a reason. Even watching last season, they attacked Lou because he was the weakest link defensively.
2) Russell, Clarkson or even Calderon won't be exploited the way Lou will be. They have the clear height advantage. Defensive schemes will make them look better, and they also have the length and lateral speed to defend better. I hate this notion that guards are either lockdown defenders or they can't defend at all. Kyrie lit up EVERYONE, including Cory Joseph, who is widely regarded as one of the better defenders in the league. The best thing they can do is mitigate the damage, and that's where the team defense and personnel count for something. Did people not watch GT's video on Russell's defense, and how Nance didn't ICE properly? |
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: |
Since he is soon to be 30, significantly changing Lou's game might not be that easy. |
100% right. i dont get the 100% blame on byron part. well it was for last year but what about 2years before that? |
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Boldarblood
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: |
We have enougu flexibility to make a move to shore up our SG. Do you
Really want Lou coming up and down everytime in Lukes offense by hoisting up 3's? The Lakers need a SG who can score but also play defense. |
Like those players grow off trees. That is what every single team needs, the real question is who?
I dont have a problem with Lou, former 6th man of the year, good instant offense off the bench. There is not a lot of options out there. |
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Laker's Fan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Bard - I couldn't say if Budz has a personal preference regarding Lou. It seems to me Budz chose Teague as his attacking guard over Lou. Atlanta also wanted cap flexibility to reshape the roster. That doesn't mean Lou isn't a valuable player. It just means the team has to need the things Lou is good at to maximize his impact. I would say Atlanta falls into that category this year.
Atlanta is trying to bridge a rebuild with a few win now pieces so they don't fall off a competitive cliff. They elected to sign Howard for three years instead of Horford for five. They signed Jack to a one year deal. Trading for Lou would be a similar move while Thabo is a 32 year old free agent to be that won't take a one year deal next July, especially when Atlanta is seeding his replacement. That runs parallel to Atlanta having four or five other key free agents next season. Old cap contracts like Lou's have real value.
I can't say Atlanta or LA would do a Lou/Thabo deal. But if Mitch offered it Budz would be smart to take it.
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Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night. |
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Jim99187
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker's Fan wrote: | Bard - I couldn't say if Budz has a personal preference regarding Lou. It seems to me Budz chose Teague as his attacking guard over Lou. Atlanta also wanted cap flexibility to reshape the roster. That doesn't mean Lou isn't a valuable player. It just means the team has to need the things Lou is good at to maximize his impact. I would say Atlanta falls into that category this year.
Atlanta is trying to bridge a rebuild with a few win now pieces so they don't fall off a competitive cliff. They elected to sign Howard for three years instead of Horford for five. They signed Jack to a one year deal. Trading for Lou would be a similar move while Thabo is a 32 year old free agent to be that won't take a one year deal next July, especially when Atlanta is seeding his replacement. That runs parallel to Atlanta having four or five other key free agents next season. Old cap contracts like Lou's have real value.
I can't say Atlanta or LA would do a Lou/Thabo deal. But if Mitch offered it Budz would be smart to take it. |
ATL traded a #16 pick in previous draft to get an expirer for Lou( J Salmons) thats how much the guy didnt wanted him on his team |
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Judah
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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If Lou ever seemed to be more of a black hole last year than other guys he was playing with, it's primarily because he was one of the few scoring threats out there on the floor. We all watched the Lakers enough to know how self-defeating Byron's "offense" was. It was a train wreck all year long. Some of the offense was designed for isos (mainly for Kobe) but most of them always seemed to be a last resort option because the sets were terrible and always broke down. It didn't look like they ever had any meaningful counters when the sets broke down. If it broke down (which it usually did), iso ball became a necessity for whoever had the ball. The players usually had no choice. The team struggled miserably to score if guys like Lou didn't become aggressive.
I don't see any reason to assume Lou will just be some ball-stopper all year who would refuse to adapt to whatever the team needs him to do. Let's not forget that this is the same guy who sat out most of the last 15-20 games so the young guys could get more minutes. How many vets would be willing to do that if it was asked of them? Well, they asked Lou and he went along with it. Sure sounds like a team guy to me.
My biggest concerns with him are his lack of size and how it'll probably hurt him on both ends, and just his defense overall. But Luke has a bright basketball mind, as does the rest of his staff. I can't help but think that they'll find a way to place Lou in positions where he can be effective on offense, and somehow make up for his defensive deficiencies.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Early offense opportunities Lou will thrive in. He's already efficient based on analytic numbers. I think those numbers will be even better in Luke's offense.
I see him doing alot of the same things Barbosa did for GS. |
LeBron repeatedly yelled to "get ball to who he's guarding" while looking in Curry's direction. One time #Cavs did & JR hit 3. LeBron nodded
Replace Curry with Lou, who is 2 inches shorter and one of the worst defenders in the league, and that will be the offensive gameplan for all the well-coached teams we face. I can't see any scenario in the playoffs working out with Lou on the roster tbh. I don't hate Lou. I just despise his game.
Barbosa is one of the quickest players in the league, if not the quickest. He has the lateral speed to keep up with most players, so Lou will not be playing that role. Barbosa got playing time because he defended well enough to earn it. |
We aren't gonna make the finals (where your Lebron told everyone to pick on Curry example took place). We aren't even gonna make the playoffs.
But in the hypothetical scenario you describe, Lebron wouldn't have to tell his teammates to go at Lou. Because our whole backcourt rotation this year doesn't have 1 above average guard defender. All of our guards can be exposed for their lack of defense. It's not like there is some huge dropoff defensively between Lou and our other poor guard defenders.
Lou is quick. Probably not as quick as Barbosa. But in the open court I think he'll be just as efficient. Never really thought of Barbosa as a 2-way player. He's an offense first guy like Lou. |
Great... another crystal ball post. Please tell me what else that crystal ball of yours shows for the Lakers next season. I'm genuinely curious because you clearly have ALL the answers.
1) It's not a scenario that happens in the finals. It's the (bleep) NBA. Teams exploit mismatches on a nightly basis. That's how you win games. Luke is going for size and versatility for a reason. Even watching last season, they attacked Lou because he was the weakest link defensively.
2) Russell, Clarkson or even Calderon won't be exploited the way Lou will be. They have the clear height advantage. Defensive schemes will make them look better, and they also have the length and lateral speed to defend better. I hate this notion that guards are either lockdown defenders or they can't defend at all. Kyrie lit up EVERYONE, including Cory Joseph, who is widely regarded as one of the better defenders in the league. The best thing they can do is mitigate the damage, and that's where the team defense and personnel count for something. Did people not watch GT's video on Russell's defense, and how Nance didn't ICE properly? |
I know you passionately dislike Lou, but don't take that hostility out on me.
You don't need a crystal ball to know we aren't an above .500 team. You just have to compare our roster to the rest of the league. Or look at how comparable rosters (to ours) have fared in recent NBA seasons. It's fine to think we'll make the playoffs or NBA finals. But I'm just acknowledging it's a long shot to happen. I can't think of any evidence that makes me think we'll win 30 more games this year.
Of course NBA teams utilize mismatches. I just haven't seen anything on the defense end from guys like DLO, Clarkson, Calderon, Huertas. To make me think, opposing teams will go out of there way to single out Lou.
DLO's defense was good in SL. But I'm not sure if he'll be a + defender against NBA competition. Most 1st and 2nd year guys aren't. Like you said, the defense of our perimeter players will largely be judged by how they perform team-defense principles. I think Lou can do those principles.
Lou lacks size and length. But so did Barbosa compared to his GS teammates. That didn't stop Barbosa from contributing to GS's success. I think Lou can be a useful contributor for us this upcoming season.
And if opposing teams want to post up Lou, I'm cool with that. Post ups aren't efficient plays from a PPP basis.
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fontana3d
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Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Posts: 3794
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim99187 wrote: | | Laker's Fan wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | That's not really the role I picture Calderon. He average 7 points in 28 minutes last year. I'm picturing we give him about half that, 14 minutes or so, as backup PG. So maybe he averages a couple of buckets per game. He'll be good for big shots here and there but offense wise I'd expect him to be more setting the table for scorers around him and bring good solid, vet steadiness. Rotations will be interesting. (Wish we had a defensive guard off the bench...) |
I agree with the bolded and would add the word veteran before the word defensive given the relative vet/youth split of the roster. Thabo feels like the guy who checks the most boxes (veteran, tough wing defender, experience in a modern offense, expiring contract) while being possible to attain.
Atlanta is in a transition period. Next year Milsap, Thabo, Korver and Splitter are unrestricted fee agents and Schroder and Hardaway Jr are restricted fee agents. They've already begun resetting their wing rotation paying Bazemore, trading for Hardaway and drafting T Prince and D Bembry. They hit reset at PG moving Teague and promoting Schroder. But they are also trying to compete now replacing Horford with Howard and bringing in Jack, who tore his ACL in January and will 33 the day before the season starts, as a vet backup PG. I suppose you can do that in the East.
Not sure exactly what would get a Thabo deal done. Calderon would be a good vet backup and play well in Budz system with his passing and shooting. But that isn't enough value for Thabo. Lou would be an expensive piece to give up and the value margin goes the other way. Like Howard, Lou is a local product who grew up 20 minutes outside Atlanta. He is also the type of ball handling guard Budz could make an important part of their offense. If you consider the next two years a Lou/Thabo deal could help Atlanta manage their roster building efforts but LA would probably want something more unless they feel a need for the extra cap space next year. |
thats 1 of the reasons i want Harkless. the guy can guard 3/4 positions |
Yeah, but we are not going to blow our cap space the next few years for him though. |
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dcarter4kobe
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Never been a big Lou fan. Would of preferred us to sign Seth Curry, a much better off the ball player, for a cheaper contract and pick up another asset trading Lou. But as is, I don't mind Lou off the bench to provide scoring. Black, Nance, Brown, Calderon, Marcelo are all limited offensively and Ingram is a rookie.
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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FanOfFour
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1761
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm fine with him getting 15 to 18 minutes a game. In spurts he can be okay. By no means should he ever be in the game in crunch time when the game is on the line. He didn't show last season that he could actually make shots with the game in the balance regardless of how many times Byron stuck him in there to finish. And referees are going to swallow their whistles making his free throw drawing abilities just about worthless. |
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Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker's Fan wrote: | Bard - I couldn't say if Budz has a personal preference regarding Lou. It seems to me Budz chose Teague as his attacking guard over Lou. Atlanta also wanted cap flexibility to reshape the roster. That doesn't mean Lou isn't a valuable player. It just means the team has to need the things Lou is good at to maximize his impact. I would say Atlanta falls into that category this year.
Atlanta is trying to bridge a rebuild with a few win now pieces so they don't fall off a competitive cliff. They elected to sign Howard for three years instead of Horford for five. They signed Jack to a one year deal. Trading for Lou would be a similar move while Thabo is a 32 year old free agent to be that won't take a one year deal next July, especially when Atlanta is seeding his replacement. That runs parallel to Atlanta having four or five other key free agents next season. Old cap contracts like Lou's have real value.
I can't say Atlanta or LA would do a Lou/Thabo deal. But if Mitch offered it Budz would be smart to take it. |
Atlanta has the following players to cover the minutes at SF, SG and PG:
Bazemore (6' 5")
Tim Hardaway Jr (6' 6")
Korver (6' 7")
Schroder (6' 1")
Thabo Sefolosha (6' 7")
Jarrett Jack (6' 3")
Malcolm Delaney (6' 3")
DeAndre' Bembry (6' 6")
Tauren Prince (6' 8")
Other than Schroder, the rest of their players are 6' 3" and taller.
As far as Lou being considered a replacement for Thabo, I don't think that their games - style of play are that similar. |
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KindCrippler2000
Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Early offense opportunities Lou will thrive in. He's already efficient based on analytic numbers. I think those numbers will be even better in Luke's offense.
I see him doing alot of the same things Barbosa did for GS. |
LeBron repeatedly yelled to "get ball to who he's guarding" while looking in Curry's direction. One time #Cavs did & JR hit 3. LeBron nodded
Replace Curry with Lou, who is 2 inches shorter and one of the worst defenders in the league, and that will be the offensive gameplan for all the well-coached teams we face. I can't see any scenario in the playoffs working out with Lou on the roster tbh. I don't hate Lou. I just despise his game.
Barbosa is one of the quickest players in the league, if not the quickest. He has the lateral speed to keep up with most players, so Lou will not be playing that role. Barbosa got playing time because he defended well enough to earn it. |
We aren't gonna make the finals (where your Lebron told everyone to pick on Curry example took place). We aren't even gonna make the playoffs.
But in the hypothetical scenario you describe, Lebron wouldn't have to tell his teammates to go at Lou. Because our whole backcourt rotation this year doesn't have 1 above average guard defender. All of our guards can be exposed for their lack of defense. It's not like there is some huge dropoff defensively between Lou and our other poor guard defenders.
Lou is quick. Probably not as quick as Barbosa. But in the open court I think he'll be just as efficient. Never really thought of Barbosa as a 2-way player. He's an offense first guy like Lou. |
Great... another crystal ball post. Please tell me what else that crystal ball of yours shows for the Lakers next season. I'm genuinely curious because you clearly have ALL the answers.
1) It's not a scenario that happens in the finals. It's the (bleep) NBA. Teams exploit mismatches on a nightly basis. That's how you win games. Luke is going for size and versatility for a reason. Even watching last season, they attacked Lou because he was the weakest link defensively.
2) Russell, Clarkson or even Calderon won't be exploited the way Lou will be. They have the clear height advantage. Defensive schemes will make them look better, and they also have the length and lateral speed to defend better. I hate this notion that guards are either lockdown defenders or they can't defend at all. Kyrie lit up EVERYONE, including Cory Joseph, who is widely regarded as one of the better defenders in the league. The best thing they can do is mitigate the damage, and that's where the team defense and personnel count for something. Did people not watch GT's video on Russell's defense, and how Nance didn't ICE properly? |
I know you passionately dislike Lou, but don't take that hostility out on me.
You don't need a crystal ball to know we aren't an above .500 team. You just have to compare our roster to the rest of the league. Or look at how comparable rosters (to ours) have fared in recent NBA seasons. It's fine to think we'll make the playoffs or NBA finals. But I'm just acknowledging it's a long shot to happen. I can't think of any evidence that makes me think we'll win 30 more games this year.
Of course NBA teams utilize mismatches. I just haven't seen anything on the defense end from guys like DLO, Clarkson, Calderon, Huertas. To make me think, opposing teams will go out of there way to single out Lou.
DLO's defense was good in SL. But I'm not sure if he'll be a + defender against NBA competition. Most 1st and 2nd year guys aren't. Like you said, the defense of our perimeter players will largely be judged by how they perform team-defense principles. I think Lou can do those principles.
Lou lacks size and length. But so did Barbosa compared to his GS teammates. That didn't stop Barbosa from contributing to GS's success. I think Lou can be a useful contributor for us this upcoming season.
And if opposing teams want to post up Lou, I'm cool with that. Post ups aren't efficient plays from a PPP basis. |
Isn't that what people said about the Jazz or Blazers prior to last season? What happened there? How did those teams beat the expectations? Oh, now I remember... coaching happened. Negativity is a killer on these forums. I've not seen a fanbase go so vehemently against their team or players. Good thing there's a receipts department.
I won't bother arguing the rest. Lou has to not be a net negative on defense for him to be useful off the bench next season. Not sure if Luke will tolerate him if Bud and Casey weren't able to find a suitable place for him. |
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kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29380
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Early offense opportunities Lou will thrive in. He's already efficient based on analytic numbers. I think those numbers will be even better in Luke's offense.
I see him doing alot of the same things Barbosa did for GS. |
LeBron repeatedly yelled to "get ball to who he's guarding" while looking in Curry's direction. One time #Cavs did & JR hit 3. LeBron nodded
Replace Curry with Lou, who is 2 inches shorter and one of the worst defenders in the league, and that will be the offensive gameplan for all the well-coached teams we face. I can't see any scenario in the playoffs working out with Lou on the roster tbh. I don't hate Lou. I just despise his game.
Barbosa is one of the quickest players in the league, if not the quickest. He has the lateral speed to keep up with most players, so Lou will not be playing that role. Barbosa got playing time because he defended well enough to earn it. |
We aren't gonna make the finals (where your Lebron told everyone to pick on Curry example took place). We aren't even gonna make the playoffs.
But in the hypothetical scenario you describe, Lebron wouldn't have to tell his teammates to go at Lou. Because our whole backcourt rotation this year doesn't have 1 above average guard defender. All of our guards can be exposed for their lack of defense. It's not like there is some huge dropoff defensively between Lou and our other poor guard defenders.
Lou is quick. Probably not as quick as Barbosa. But in the open court I think he'll be just as efficient. Never really thought of Barbosa as a 2-way player. He's an offense first guy like Lou. |
Great... another crystal ball post. Please tell me what else that crystal ball of yours shows for the Lakers next season. I'm genuinely curious because you clearly have ALL the answers.
1) It's not a scenario that happens in the finals. It's the (bleep) NBA. Teams exploit mismatches on a nightly basis. That's how you win games. Luke is going for size and versatility for a reason. Even watching last season, they attacked Lou because he was the weakest link defensively.
2) Russell, Clarkson or even Calderon won't be exploited the way Lou will be. They have the clear height advantage. Defensive schemes will make them look better, and they also have the length and lateral speed to defend better. I hate this notion that guards are either lockdown defenders or they can't defend at all. Kyrie lit up EVERYONE, including Cory Joseph, who is widely regarded as one of the better defenders in the league. The best thing they can do is mitigate the damage, and that's where the team defense and personnel count for something. Did people not watch GT's video on Russell's defense, and how Nance didn't ICE properly? |
I know you passionately dislike Lou, but don't take that hostility out on me.
You don't need a crystal ball to know we aren't an above .500 team. You just have to compare our roster to the rest of the league. Or look at how comparable rosters (to ours) have fared in recent NBA seasons. It's fine to think we'll make the playoffs or NBA finals. But I'm just acknowledging it's a long shot to happen. I can't think of any evidence that makes me think we'll win 30 more games this year.
Of course NBA teams utilize mismatches. I just haven't seen anything on the defense end from guys like DLO, Clarkson, Calderon, Huertas. To make me think, opposing teams will go out of there way to single out Lou.
DLO's defense was good in SL. But I'm not sure if he'll be a + defender against NBA competition. Most 1st and 2nd year guys aren't. Like you said, the defense of our perimeter players will largely be judged by how they perform team-defense principles. I think Lou can do those principles.
Lou lacks size and length. But so did Barbosa compared to his GS teammates. That didn't stop Barbosa from contributing to GS's success. I think Lou can be a useful contributor for us this upcoming season.
And if opposing teams want to post up Lou, I'm cool with that. Post ups aren't efficient plays from a PPP basis. |
Isn't that what people said about the Jazz or Blazers prior to last season? What happened there? How did those teams beat the expectations? Oh, now I remember... coaching happened. Negativity is a killer on these forums. I've not seen a fanbase go so vehemently against their team or players. Good thing there's a receipts department.
I won't bother arguing the rest. Lou has to not be a net negative on defense for him to be useful off the bench next season. Not sure if Luke will tolerate him if Bud and Casey weren't able to find a suitable place for him. |
Coaching did help Utah and Blazers overachieve. Neither team were 14th or 15th in the WC for 3 straight years. Portland had a legit allstar in Lillard who already showed he can elevate his already dominant play to another level (series-clinching, game winner against Houston). And Utah had a core that had been together longer then our current young core (and still didn't make the playoffs).
But you're right. Coaching can help teams exceed expectations. But turning a 17 win team into an above .500 team in 1 season, without an all star on the roster is a tough task for any coach. Maybe if we had more than 1 league average starter on the roster I could buy into playoff expectations. But as it stands now, so many of our young players have to take major leaps forward. It's tough for me to buy into a playoff birth this season.
Not rooting against our players. I think by keeping expectations low, it prevents P&M when the season starts. Be it towards the players or the coaching staff. If we improve this season, then I could see playoffs being in the cards in the 2017-2018 season. But ALOT of things have to go right first in the 2016-2017 season. Good health, young core developing faster than their draft peers, etc.
If the Lakers exceed my expectations. I'll be happy. It's not like I want us to have a bad season.
Having low expectations exceeded is a much better alternative in my book than building expectations too high and being disappointed.
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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KindCrippler2000
Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Early offense opportunities Lou will thrive in. He's already efficient based on analytic numbers. I think those numbers will be even better in Luke's offense.
I see him doing alot of the same things Barbosa did for GS. |
LeBron repeatedly yelled to "get ball to who he's guarding" while looking in Curry's direction. One time #Cavs did & JR hit 3. LeBron nodded
Replace Curry with Lou, who is 2 inches shorter and one of the worst defenders in the league, and that will be the offensive gameplan for all the well-coached teams we face. I can't see any scenario in the playoffs working out with Lou on the roster tbh. I don't hate Lou. I just despise his game.
Barbosa is one of the quickest players in the league, if not the quickest. He has the lateral speed to keep up with most players, so Lou will not be playing that role. Barbosa got playing time because he defended well enough to earn it. |
We aren't gonna make the finals (where your Lebron told everyone to pick on Curry example took place). We aren't even gonna make the playoffs.
But in the hypothetical scenario you describe, Lebron wouldn't have to tell his teammates to go at Lou. Because our whole backcourt rotation this year doesn't have 1 above average guard defender. All of our guards can be exposed for their lack of defense. It's not like there is some huge dropoff defensively between Lou and our other poor guard defenders.
Lou is quick. Probably not as quick as Barbosa. But in the open court I think he'll be just as efficient. Never really thought of Barbosa as a 2-way player. He's an offense first guy like Lou. |
Great... another crystal ball post. Please tell me what else that crystal ball of yours shows for the Lakers next season. I'm genuinely curious because you clearly have ALL the answers.
1) It's not a scenario that happens in the finals. It's the (bleep) NBA. Teams exploit mismatches on a nightly basis. That's how you win games. Luke is going for size and versatility for a reason. Even watching last season, they attacked Lou because he was the weakest link defensively.
2) Russell, Clarkson or even Calderon won't be exploited the way Lou will be. They have the clear height advantage. Defensive schemes will make them look better, and they also have the length and lateral speed to defend better. I hate this notion that guards are either lockdown defenders or they can't defend at all. Kyrie lit up EVERYONE, including Cory Joseph, who is widely regarded as one of the better defenders in the league. The best thing they can do is mitigate the damage, and that's where the team defense and personnel count for something. Did people not watch GT's video on Russell's defense, and how Nance didn't ICE properly? |
I know you passionately dislike Lou, but don't take that hostility out on me.
You don't need a crystal ball to know we aren't an above .500 team. You just have to compare our roster to the rest of the league. Or look at how comparable rosters (to ours) have fared in recent NBA seasons. It's fine to think we'll make the playoffs or NBA finals. But I'm just acknowledging it's a long shot to happen. I can't think of any evidence that makes me think we'll win 30 more games this year.
Of course NBA teams utilize mismatches. I just haven't seen anything on the defense end from guys like DLO, Clarkson, Calderon, Huertas. To make me think, opposing teams will go out of there way to single out Lou.
DLO's defense was good in SL. But I'm not sure if he'll be a + defender against NBA competition. Most 1st and 2nd year guys aren't. Like you said, the defense of our perimeter players will largely be judged by how they perform team-defense principles. I think Lou can do those principles.
Lou lacks size and length. But so did Barbosa compared to his GS teammates. That didn't stop Barbosa from contributing to GS's success. I think Lou can be a useful contributor for us this upcoming season.
And if opposing teams want to post up Lou, I'm cool with that. Post ups aren't efficient plays from a PPP basis. |
Isn't that what people said about the Jazz or Blazers prior to last season? What happened there? How did those teams beat the expectations? Oh, now I remember... coaching happened. Negativity is a killer on these forums. I've not seen a fanbase go so vehemently against their team or players. Good thing there's a receipts department.
I won't bother arguing the rest. Lou has to not be a net negative on defense for him to be useful off the bench next season. Not sure if Luke will tolerate him if Bud and Casey weren't able to find a suitable place for him. |
Coaching did help Utah and Blazers overachieve. Neither team were 14th or 15th in the WC for 3 straight years. Portland had a legit allstar in Lillard who already showed he can elevate his already dominant play to another level (series-clinching, game winner against Houston). And Utah had a core that had been together longer then our current young core (and still didn't make the playoffs).
But you're right. Coaching can help teams exceed expectations. But turning a 17 win team into an above .500 team in 1 season, without an all star on the roster is a tough task for any coach. Maybe if we had more than 1 league average starter on the roster I could buy into playoff expectations. But as it stands now, so many of our young players have to take major leaps forward. It's tough for me to buy into a playoff birth this season.
Not rooting against our players. I think by keeping expectations low, it prevents P&M when the season starts. Be it towards the players or the coaching staff. If we improve this season, then I could see playoffs being in the cards in the 2017-2018 season. But ALOT of things have to go right first in the 2016-2017 season. Good health, young core developing faster than their draft peers, etc.
If the Lakers exceed my expectations. I'll be happy. It's not like I want us to have a bad season.
Having low expectations exceeded is a much better alternative in my book than building expectations too high and being disappointed. |
Fair enough.
It's worth noting Lillard didn't make the all-star game this time around, so the Blazers technically had zero all-stars. They lost 4 of their starters and were projected to be in the lottery. That McCollum emerged and played as well as he did is a testament to not just Terry Stotts, but also their player development staff. The result was them going further than they did last season, which is incredible when you think about it. Batum, Lopez, Matthews, Afflalo are all starting caliber, so I'm not sure what you mean by league average here. The Blazers had the better outcome without those "league average" starters. Fit and chemistry are more important than talent in this particular case.
The Jazz had injury woes and had to start the likes of Shelvin Mack. What kept them cohesive despite their injury woes was their defensive strategy. Snyder is a heck of a coach and he overachieved with that team. Impressive when considering Favors and Gobert were out for a good chunk. |
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