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nash
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 Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | The only stumbling point I see is who will get more minutes between Zubac and Blac?
Perhaps initially Black, but I think (or hope) that by the end of the season, Zubac will be taking minutes away from Black AND Mosgov... |
I see Zubac taking an Andrew Bynum trajectory.
1st year for Bynum was pedestrian, garbage time. 2nd year put up something like 8 ppg level.
Black is basically on a 1 year deal, so he will have to show out or be replaced by Zub next season. |
Comparing rookie seasons I think that Zubac is at least one season ahead of where Bynum was, maybe two. Of course he is older as well with more experience, so that shouldn't be a shocker. I think he can get 8-10 mpg this season. |
Agreed.
Zubac may be on the same stage of development that Bynum was at the end of his second season. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | The only stumbling point I see is who will get more minutes between Zubac and Blac?
Perhaps initially Black, but I think (or hope) that by the end of the season, Zubac will be taking minutes away from Black AND Mosgov... |
I see Zubac taking an Andrew Bynum trajectory.
1st year for Bynum was pedestrian, garbage time. 2nd year put up something like 8 ppg level.
Black is basically on a 1 year deal, so he will have to show out or be replaced by Zub next season. |
Comparing rookie seasons I think that Zubac is at least one season ahead of where Bynum was, maybe two. Of course he is older as well with more experience, so that shouldn't be a shocker. I think he can get 8-10 mpg this season. |
Agreed.
Zubac may be on the same stage of development that Bynum was at the end of his second season. |
I love the Zubac clay, but it wouldn't be bad to bring him along slowly. That was SPL play where his lack of footspeed wasn't tested as much.
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nash
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | nash wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | The only stumbling point I see is who will get more minutes between Zubac and Blac?
Perhaps initially Black, but I think (or hope) that by the end of the season, Zubac will be taking minutes away from Black AND Mosgov... |
I see Zubac taking an Andrew Bynum trajectory.
1st year for Bynum was pedestrian, garbage time. 2nd year put up something like 8 ppg level.
Black is basically on a 1 year deal, so he will have to show out or be replaced by Zub next season. |
Comparing rookie seasons I think that Zubac is at least one season ahead of where Bynum was, maybe two. Of course he is older as well with more experience, so that shouldn't be a shocker. I think he can get 8-10 mpg this season. |
Agreed.
Zubac may be on the same stage of development that Bynum was at the end of his second season. |
I love the Zubac clay, but it wouldn't be bad to bring him along slowly. That was SPL play where his lack of footspeed wasn't tested as much. |
Sure, that is why I'm talking about his third season.
I still believe most of the drama from last season could have been avoided letting Julius and Russell slowly come from the bench early. Not being ready is the rule with young players and there is plenty of development in 20 minutes for a guy coming from a college season or international play.
My focus with young players is the 3rd season, anything they gives us before that is a bless. I became a Lakers fan when Magic was a rookie, we can't expect these freshmans to produce like seasoned college players like Magic and Duncan anymore.
I really love both of our picks, but I really don't expect much from them this season when the tank is formally over. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I still believe most of the drama from last season could have been avoided letting Julius and Russell slowly come from the bench early. Not being ready is the rule with young players and there is plenty of development in 20 minutes for a guy coming from a college season or international play. |
I agree with that in principle, but it's not as if Lou/Bass really "beat out" DLO/Jules. What was lacking was Byron being a coach and teaching these kids. How many times did DLO come out and say that he didn't know what to do and he was getting no direction from Byron?
If you play the young kids, you sure as hell better teach them and guide them.
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nash
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I still believe most of the drama from last season could have been avoided letting Julius and Russell slowly come from the bench early. Not being ready is the rule with young players and there is plenty of development in 20 minutes for a guy coming from a college season or international play. |
I agree with that in principle, but it's not as if Lou/Bass really "beat out" DLO/Jules. What was lacking was Byron being a coach and teaching these kids. How many times did DLO come out and say that he didn't know what to do and he was getting no direction from Byron?
If you play the young kids, you sure as hell better teach them and guide them. |
Sometimes you have too look at things with other eyes. Dlo was a cancer for Scott, coach was trying hard to tank games and the rookie was trying to take them over. How could he let Russell finish games taking the risk to barely miss a top 3 pick?
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dao
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Clarkson, Russell, and Mozgov are guaranteed to start at their position. Deng is a starter but we just don't know what position he's going to start at. Deng was at his best at PF which during the season will allow Ingram to start at SF. |
luke is not going to mess with Randle from the get go. He will get his due at starting and then later evaluate that |
Yeah. I think the PF starting spot is Randle's to lose. I think he will start, with Nance/Deng backing him up.
Now, 2017 is a different story. I can see Deng coming off the bench by then. |
I don't see Luke coddling Randle or playing favorites based on draft position. If Randle is better than Nance and fits better, he will start. If not, Luke will start Nance.
It's very possible that Randle is the third best PF on the roster behind Deng and Nance. He's certainly the worst defender of the three, probably the worst shooter of the three, and also has the lowest hoops IQ.
Since Nance can play some 5, there are probably enough minutes to go around. But don't sleep on Zubac. If he plays around 10 mpg, there won't be as much PT to go around as people think imo. Randle has to step up. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Clarkson, Russell, and Mozgov are guaranteed to start at their position. Deng is a starter but we just don't know what position he's going to start at. Deng was at his best at PF which during the season will allow Ingram to start at SF. |
luke is not going to mess with Randle from the get go. He will get his due at starting and then later evaluate that |
Yeah. I think the PF starting spot is Randle's to lose. I think he will start, with Nance/Deng backing him up.
Now, 2017 is a different story. I can see Deng coming off the bench by then. |
I don't see Luke coddling Randle or playing favorites based on draft position. If Randle is better than Nance and fits better, he will start. If not, Luke will start Nance.
It's very possible that Randle is the third best PF on the roster behind Deng and Nance. He's certainly the worst defender of the three, probably the worst shooter of the three, and also has the lowest hoops IQ.
Since Nance can play some 5, there are probably enough minutes to go around. But don't sleep on Zubac. If he plays around 10 mpg, there won't be as much PT to go around as people think imo. Randle has to step up. |
It's not coddling. Randle finished the year as the starting PF. It's technically his to lose. I think the camp battles for that position will be fierce, but eventually will be Jules with Nance/Deng backing him up.
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dao
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | dao wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Clarkson, Russell, and Mozgov are guaranteed to start at their position. Deng is a starter but we just don't know what position he's going to start at. Deng was at his best at PF which during the season will allow Ingram to start at SF. |
luke is not going to mess with Randle from the get go. He will get his due at starting and then later evaluate that |
Yeah. I think the PF starting spot is Randle's to lose. I think he will start, with Nance/Deng backing him up.
Now, 2017 is a different story. I can see Deng coming off the bench by then. |
I don't see Luke coddling Randle or playing favorites based on draft position. If Randle is better than Nance and fits better, he will start. If not, Luke will start Nance.
It's very possible that Randle is the third best PF on the roster behind Deng and Nance. He's certainly the worst defender of the three, probably the worst shooter of the three, and also has the lowest hoops IQ.
Since Nance can play some 5, there are probably enough minutes to go around. But don't sleep on Zubac. If he plays around 10 mpg, there won't be as much PT to go around as people think imo. Randle has to step up. |
It's not coddling. Randle finished the year as the starting PF. It's technically his to lose. I think the camp battles for that position will be fierce, but eventually will be Jules with Nance/Deng backing him up. |
I don't think Luke cares about Byron Scott's rotation choices. Nance was a better player last year imo, and seems to have made large strides in his game. We will see if Randle can beat him out. Defense, shooting, IQ all favor Nance. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't think Luke cares about Byron Scott's rotation choices. Nance was a better player last year imo, and seems to have made large strides in his game. We will see if Randle can beat him out. Defense, shooting, IQ all favor Nance. |
And Luke understands team chemistry. He knows how hard Jules works and how much of a vocal leader he is. The last thing he wants to do is cram Nance Jr (who could care less about starting) into the starting lineup just b/c he can hit a few jumpers and doesn't iso (probably b/c he can't).
I think you miss the team chemistry angle here big time. Perhaps Jules will be given tough competition and his minutes won't be guaranteed, but I still think he will win out the PF spot.
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dao
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I don't think Luke cares about Byron Scott's rotation choices. Nance was a better player last year imo, and seems to have made large strides in his game. We will see if Randle can beat him out. Defense, shooting, IQ all favor Nance. |
And Luke understands team chemistry. He knows how hard Jules works and how much of a vocal leader he is. The last thing he wants to do is cram Nance Jr (who could care less about starting) into the starting lineup just b/c he can hit a few jumpers and doesn't iso (probably b/c he can't).
I think you miss the team chemistry angle here big time. Perhaps Jules will be given tough competition and his minutes won't be guaranteed, but I still think he will win out the PF spot. |
That's exactly what I mean by coddling. The last thing Luke wants to do is lose games. Coddling Randle's ego isn't something that would be healthy for the team if he's the third best PF on the roster. The best players will play imo. Randle has to start playing defense, hitting jumpers, and playing smart basketball to EARN minutes over Deng and Nance.
I'm rooting for him. |
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nash
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | ... Nance was a better player last year imo, and seems to have made large strides in his game ... |
From a pure talent standpoint I like Randle better, but I agree about Nance being the better player because he brings to the table what a team need to win games. At some point I expect Julius to learn how to play the game the right way. Developing a reliable jump shot I wouldn't be surprised with Julius and Deng/Ingram playing that interchangeable roles at the forwards spots that we see between Clarkson and Russell. I find it really hard to predict anything about Julius because he has some uncommon talents and a lot of holes to fill and I have doubts if one year under Scott helped him to fill this holes. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I don't think Luke cares about Byron Scott's rotation choices. Nance was a better player last year imo, and seems to have made large strides in his game. We will see if Randle can beat him out. Defense, shooting, IQ all favor Nance. |
And Luke understands team chemistry. He knows how hard Jules works and how much of a vocal leader he is. The last thing he wants to do is cram Nance Jr (who could care less about starting) into the starting lineup just b/c he can hit a few jumpers and doesn't iso (probably b/c he can't).
I think you miss the team chemistry angle here big time. Perhaps Jules will be given tough competition and his minutes won't be guaranteed, but I still think he will win out the PF spot. |
That's exactly what I mean by coddling. The last thing Luke wants to do is lose games. Coddling Randle's ego isn't something that would be healthy for the team if he's the third best PF on the roster. The best players will play imo. Randle has to start playing defense, hitting jumpers, and playing smart basketball to EARN minutes over Deng and Nance.
I'm rooting for him. |
Again, it's Jule's spot to lose. Nance can and will challenge for the starting spot, but unlike Jules who thinks he's a starter, Nance may be content with being a super sub.
Deng will start at SF most likely.
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defense
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | dao wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I don't think Luke cares about Byron Scott's rotation choices. Nance was a better player last year imo, and seems to have made large strides in his game. We will see if Randle can beat him out. Defense, shooting, IQ all favor Nance. |
And Luke understands team chemistry. He knows how hard Jules works and how much of a vocal leader he is. The last thing he wants to do is cram Nance Jr (who could care less about starting) into the starting lineup just b/c he can hit a few jumpers and doesn't iso (probably b/c he can't).
I think you miss the team chemistry angle here big time. Perhaps Jules will be given tough competition and his minutes won't be guaranteed, but I still think he will win out the PF spot. |
That's exactly what I mean by coddling. The last thing Luke wants to do is lose games. Coddling Randle's ego isn't something that would be healthy for the team if he's the third best PF on the roster. The best players will play imo. Randle has to start playing defense, hitting jumpers, and playing smart basketball to EARN minutes over Deng and Nance.
I'm rooting for him. |
Again, it's Jule's spot to lose. Nance can and will challenge for the starting spot, but unlike Jules who thinks he's a starter, Nance may be content with being a super sub.
Deng will start at SF most likely. |
I disagree with Nance being content as a bench player. Last season he didn't seem too happy when he came back from injury and was no longer starting, so much so that he mentioned to the media that he thought he and Randle should play together.
Anyway what each player thinks about starting or not starting shouldn't determine anything. The guy who does the best job helping the team win games should start. If they can't suppress their egos for the benefit of the team then Luke should think hard about whether they are right for the team. David Lee and Monta Ellis were superior players at the time over Curry and Green but GS saw getting rid of them as the best thing for the team and they turned out the be right. |
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Dave20
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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As for minutes:
Clarkson 35
Russell 33
Deng 32
Randle 29
Ingram 27
Nance 22 |
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PICKnPOP
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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It's unorthodox but I like the idea of
Russell
Ingram
Deng
Nance
Mosgov
clarkson
Williams
Randle
As an 8 man rotation and...
Calderon
Zubac/black
Brown
If they go any deeper.
Clarkson subs in for Ingram first, then when Russ sits Clarkson slides over to PG and Williams comes in for Russell. Ingram then comes back in for deng and mozgov subs with Randle. When nance rest, randle slides over to pf and either zubac or black come in.
Clarkson and Randle get starter minutes but still get to play their games. Push the tempo, and look to score. Clarkson gets to spam his high screen and roll, and Randle gets to go to town on opposing centers taking them off the dribble. All while not being slowed down by the offense or sharing touches. |
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| PICKnPOP wrote: | It's unorthodox but I like the idea of
Russell
Ingram
Deng
Nance
Mosgov
clarkson
Williams
Randle
As an 8 man rotation and...
Calderon
Zubac/black
Brown
If they go any deeper.
Clarkson subs in for Ingram first, then when Russ sits Clarkson slides over to PG and Williams comes in for Russell. Ingram then comes back in for deng and mozgov subs with Randle. When nance rest, randle slides over to pf and either zubac or black come in.
Clarkson and Randle get starter minutes but still get to play their games. Push the tempo, and look to score. Clarkson gets to spam his high screen and roll, and Randle gets to go to town on opposing centers taking them off the dribble. All while not being slowed down by the offense or sharing touches. |
Intriguing lineup.
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Dlo
Clarkson
ingram
deng
randle
This is easily going to be my favorite line up, but im not sure how many minutes luke will play them together. |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | dao wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Jim99187 wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | Clarkson, Russell, and Mozgov are guaranteed to start at their position. Deng is a starter but we just don't know what position he's going to start at. Deng was at his best at PF which during the season will allow Ingram to start at SF. |
luke is not going to mess with Randle from the get go. He will get his due at starting and then later evaluate that |
Yeah. I think the PF starting spot is Randle's to lose. I think he will start, with Nance/Deng backing him up.
Now, 2017 is a different story. I can see Deng coming off the bench by then. |
I don't see Luke coddling Randle or playing favorites based on draft position. If Randle is better than Nance and fits better, he will start. If not, Luke will start Nance.
It's very possible that Randle is the third best PF on the roster behind Deng and Nance. He's certainly the worst defender of the three, probably the worst shooter of the three, and also has the lowest hoops IQ.
Since Nance can play some 5, there are probably enough minutes to go around. But don't sleep on Zubac. If he plays around 10 mpg, there won't be as much PT to go around as people think imo. Randle has to step up. |
It's not coddling. Randle finished the year as the starting PF. It's technically his to lose. I think the camp battles for that position will be fierce, but eventually will be Jules with Nance/Deng backing him up. |
It might be against Luke's nature to just give the higher draft pick the starting spot. Luke was closest to Draymond in GS - that probably dissolved any bias Luke may have had towards higher drafted players.
It certainly would be coddling to just hand the worse player the starting spot. We don't know, Randle may be on par or better than Nance. It should be an open competition.
I strongly dislike that we still view Nance as having less upside than Randle. Nance has special tools, and is improving! Luke said he can be special. It's not just lotto picks that can be special.
*steps off Dave20's soapbox******** hahaah |
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Free_Kobe
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Starters:
PG: Russell
SG: Clarkson
SF: Ingram
PF: Randle
C: Mozgov
first off the bench:
Deng
Nance
Williams
Calderon
Black
Brown
Huertas
Zubac
Young
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dao
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Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| PICKnPOP wrote: | It's unorthodox but I like the idea of
Russell
Ingram
Deng
Nance
Mosgov
clarkson
Williams
Randle
As an 8 man rotation and...
Calderon
Zubac/black
Brown
If they go any deeper.
Clarkson subs in for Ingram first, then when Russ sits Clarkson slides over to PG and Williams comes in for Russell. Ingram then comes back in for deng and mozgov subs with Randle. When nance rest, randle slides over to pf and either zubac or black come in.
Clarkson and Randle get starter minutes but still get to play their games. Push the tempo, and look to score. Clarkson gets to spam his high screen and roll, and Randle gets to go to town on opposing centers taking them off the dribble. All while not being slowed down by the offense or sharing touches. |
This is the starting lineup I prefer as well. It's the best defensive unit in my opinion. Ingram, even at the 2, is a defensive upgrade over Clarkson in all likelihood, and Nance is a huge defensive upgrade over Randle. |
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fontana3d
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Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Posts: 3794
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | PICKnPOP wrote: | It's unorthodox but I like the idea of
Russell
Ingram
Deng
Nance
Mosgov
clarkson
Williams
Randle
As an 8 man rotation and...
Calderon
Zubac/black
Brown
If they go any deeper.
Clarkson subs in for Ingram first, then when Russ sits Clarkson slides over to PG and Williams comes in for Russell. Ingram then comes back in for deng and mozgov subs with Randle. When nance rest, randle slides over to pf and either zubac or black come in.
Clarkson and Randle get starter minutes but still get to play their games. Push the tempo, and look to score. Clarkson gets to spam his high screen and roll, and Randle gets to go to town on opposing centers taking them off the dribble. All while not being slowed down by the offense or sharing touches. |
This is the starting lineup I prefer as well. It's the best defensive unit in my opinion. Ingram, even at the 2, is a defensive upgrade over Clarkson in all likelihood, and Nance is a huge defensive upgrade over Randle. |
If Ingram's body can handle it, and does well then he's a rookie of the year contender. |
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | nash wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | The only stumbling point I see is who will get more minutes between Zubac and Blac?
Perhaps initially Black, but I think (or hope) that by the end of the season, Zubac will be taking minutes away from Black AND Mosgov... |
I see Zubac taking an Andrew Bynum trajectory.
1st year for Bynum was pedestrian, garbage time. 2nd year put up something like 8 ppg level.
Black is basically on a 1 year deal, so he will have to show out or be replaced by Zub next season. |
Comparing rookie seasons I think that Zubac is at least one season ahead of where Bynum was, maybe two. Of course he is older as well with more experience, so that shouldn't be a shocker. I think he can get 8-10 mpg this season. |
Agreed.
Zubac may be on the same stage of development that Bynum was at the end of his second season. |
I love the Zubac clay, but it wouldn't be bad to bring him along slowly. That was SPL play where his lack of footspeed wasn't tested as much. |
It wouldn't be bad at all, especially seeing as how we have better options at the moment. I loved what I saw from him in SL, but I'm not ready to call him Marc Gasol Jr. just yet. I suspect it'll take him some time to get used to the speed and athleticism of the NBA game, as well as his conditioning in order to run with other teams' 5s. Fundamentals are clearly there, but right now he'd be best served as a 3rd center getting some spot minutes here and there. |
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FreakofNature
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Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 9187
Location: Maui ...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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DLO 34
Clarkson 32
Mozgov 24
Ingram 30
Randle 33
Calderon 14
Lou 16
Nance 24
Deng 27
Zubac 6 |
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dao
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jan 2013
Posts: 5572
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| people are dismissing Zubac based on draft position. But most rankings had him as a top 20 prospect. Dx had him 16th. I view him as another first round pick, and expect him to play a little from the jump. |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | people are dismissing Zubac based on draft position. But most rankings had him as a top 20 prospect. Dx had him 16th. I view him as another first round pick, and expect him to play a little from the jump. |
I don't think there will be more than 10mpg for him.. Moz will play at least 27mpg with that contract, and Larry/Randle will get at least 10mpg as the small 5. This is the development route for Zub that i prefer, though. Similar to Clarkson. Let Zub get some NBA strength/conditioning work and then increase his minutes in the second half of the season somehow (i don't know how we can squeeze him in more but I hope we do eventually).
I agree he's a 1st rounder. 6 months ago in a 2017draft thread I said he's on par or better than Poeltl. One day he'll prove that I believe.
He was amazing in SL. He's a natural rim protector! W/ skills up his sleeve. He'll be our starting Center in a year or two. no doubt imo |
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