View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13704
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
AshesToAshes wrote: |
also a fact you can do something "wrong" without breaking the rules/law. and even the definition says "OR illegal" so legality isn't the only factor. |
But no one did anything wrong. Free agents are free to play wherever they want. Either way, it's clearly not colluding. That's a fact.
AshesToAshes wrote: |
it is a fact LBJ has afforded himself more effective control of his teammates/location. And it should produce better results. |
Sure, one of the benefits of free agency. It's why players fought for it, to get some type of control over their careers. But he still spent around half of his career playing without a star teammate. He's had 6 seasons with the type of support some had for the overwhelming majority of their careers. 6 Finals....3 titles. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13704
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Grind wrote: |
Dirk scored 26 pts on 42%. Good series for his standards, but easily offset by what prime Kobe could give you. |
He scored 26 on 42% after tearing a tendon in his hand and having a 101 fever in another game. And he still managed to hit game winners in 2 games that series.
I don't know what's up with the hypotheticals for 2011. We actually saw what Kobe could do vs Dallas. It wasn't enough. Kobe had just as much help as LeBron in 2011 and couldn't get 1 game. Dirk beat them both. Kobe avg 23/3/3 on 46% and 23% vs Dallas. He had no impact defensively and this was with a better defensive frontcourt. You won't drop him onto the Heat and get success. Now if you can restructure the team around him, Wade and Bosh, maybe. Get him some guys who can control the paint like he's had every year he's won (same with Jordan, cuz that's what guards typically need). But you couldn't just swap based on how that team was built. Don't forget LeBron was their primary perimeter defender as well.
The Grind wrote: |
Had LeBron played anywhere close to his vaunted player card, the Heat would've easily won. |
Agreed. It was a horrible series for LeBron. But swapping him out for another SG wouldn't get it done.
The Grind wrote: |
He was getting busted up by Jason Terry. Would that happen to a prime Kobe? |
Terry avg 20 PPG on 59% and 68% shooting vs LA in the 2011 playoffs.
The Grind wrote: | As for the 2011 Lakers, Pau/Lamar/Bynum were not what they were during the regular season. Hard to win when Pau is putting up 13/9 on 42% with GF issues and Drew is getting himself tossed out because of immature flagrants. None of those guys produced at Wade's or Bosh's rate, during that playoff season. |
Bosh only shot 41% and couldn't even grab the 9 boards Gasol got. Bynum still gave 13/9 on 52%. Odom gave 12/7 on 47%. Look up what the other bigs did for Miami in the Finals. Kobe's not winning with those bigs. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
panamaniac Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011 Posts: 11236 Location: PTY
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think we've been going under the assumption that 2011 Kobe falls under prime Kobe. You could argue that, but I'd say that that year's Kobe was not playing at the same level of '09 or '10. Due to the lingering injuries and wear and tear of the previous 3 playoff runs. Dude was averaging 30 those past three runs and the team could afford off nights from the supporting guys (Odom, Pau and Drew all played WAY below their avgs in 2011 BTW). Only to produce something like 23 pts on lesser efficiency in 2011, with a glaring defensive downside as you mentioned. LeBron wasn't guarding anyone in that finals series either btw. He was getting lit up by Terry and Stevenson. Also consider the fact that LA shot something like 19% from three and had zero floor spacing. Heat had guys like Chalmers and Miller who combined made more threes than the Lakers did vs Dallas in '11. Chalmers himself had a very solid series with 12ppg on 40% from 3. You put say 09/10 Kobe on that team and all of a sudden the floor opens up and you have more offensive capability. And he's certainly not getting outplayed by Terry or Barea or whoever. Combined with Wade's dominance on the wing and Bosh chipping in at his usual rate and hitting that midrange J, I really don't see how the pendulum wouldn't swing Miami's way.
I realize this is just a hypothetical, but since it's the topic at hand atm, that's just my .02. I have found this to be an interesting discussion btw... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
the association Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015 Posts: 1982
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Grind wrote: | I think we've been going under the assumption that 2011 Kobe falls under prime Kobe. You could argue that, but I'd say that that year's Kobe was not playing at the same level of '09 or '10. Due to the lingering injuries and wear and tear of the previous 3 playoff runs. Dude was averaging 30 those past three runs and the team could afford off nights from the supporting guys (Odom, Pau and Drew all played WAY below their avgs in 2011 BTW). Only to produce something like 23 pts on lesser efficiency in 2011, with a glaring defensive downside as you mentioned. LeBron wasn't guarding anyone in that finals series either btw. He was getting lit up by Terry and Stevenson. Also consider the fact that LA shot something like 19% from three and had zero floor spacing. Heat had guys like Chalmers and Miller who combined made more threes than the Lakers did vs Dallas in '11. Chalmers himself had a very solid series with 12ppg on 40% from 3. You put say 09/10 Kobe on that team and all of a sudden the floor opens up and you have more offensive capability. And he's certainly not getting outplayed by Terry or Barea or whoever. Combined with Wade's dominance on the wing and Bosh chipping in at his usual rate and hitting that midrange J, I really don't see how the pendulum wouldn't swing Miami's way.
I realize this is just a hypothetical, but since it's the topic at hand atm, that's just my .02. I have found this to be an interesting discussion btw... |
These excuses after excuses ... FFS, are you ever willing to relent when it comes to Kobe? The most ardent LeBron fans acknowledge that he sucked in the 2011 NBA Finals. Personally, I think he played terribly, both from an effort standpoint and an execution standpoint. On the other hand, you seem incapable of the same type of objectivity when it comes to Kobe. We were (bleep) swept by the very team in question with an All NBA first team and All Defense first team Kobe, along with the "best frontcourt in basketball", the GOAT head coach, and the formidable tailwind of three straight NBA Finals appearances and back-to-back titles.
As for the Jason Terry comparison, I'll offer some background. Kobe was an All Defense first team selection in 2011. During the period that most consider his "prime, he was a perennial selection to the All Defense first team, as well. You don't want to hear it, but he was abysmally ineffective on defense for very long stretches during his prime, AND the same was true for the 2010/2011 season. Later in his career, it became a running joke throughout the league that Kobe was still getting All Defense recognition ten years after he last played anything resembling average (at best) defense. Again, on the basis of sustained defensive effort and execution, Kobe wasn't deserving of All Defense recognition (at any level, much less first team) probably since 2003 or so. And that's primarily because during his "prime", as most honest observers recognize, his defense generally suffered as he single-mindedly focused nearly all of his energy on the offensive end of the court.
Now, all of that said ... Jason Terry was SUBSTANTIALLY more effective for the Mavericks against us than he was later against the Heat. And that fact is only being highlighted as relevant b/c you took a gamble with the potshot to diminish LeBron further. Again, nobody I've seen bothers to defend LeBron's 2011 NBA Finals performance. But you went one step further, and you rope-a-doped yourself. Against us two rounds earlier, during a series that Dallas ultimately closed out with a 36 point closeout win (and I underscore that last point because this is a real issue for me ... we have more closeout game blowout losses in the postseason over the past twenty years than probably any team led by a Top 10/15 player in history), Jason Terry played less minutes (31.0 vs. 32.6), scored more points (19.8 vs. 18.0), shot FAR better from the field (58.7 vs. 49.4) and especially from distance (68.4 vs. 39.3), and had better rebounding (2.3 vs. 2.0) and assists (3.8 vs. 3.2) numbers ... again, against US.
So was 2006 Kobe going to do better than 2011 Kobe in stopping Jason Terry if he was magically transported to play for the 2011 Heat? Or what about 2001 Kobe? 2009 Kobe? 2008 Kobe? Which one, exactly? The metal gymnastics are exhausting when it comes to this wishful thinking exercise. So, here's the point ... just as SF LeBron wasn't entirely to blame for SG Terry's performance that postseason, neither was SG Kobe solely responsible for SG Terry's BETTER play against us in the WCSF a month earlier.
As much as LeBron's abysmal performance (at least by his standards) contributed more than anything else on the Heat side to that NBA Finals loss, I suspect that someone as stubborn as "prime" Kobe would have played right into the hands of the Mavericks in 2011, just as he did in 2004 against the Pistons. That Mavericks team was on a mission, one five years in the making after their horrendous disappointment in the 2006 NBA Finals. The Heat would have been in disarray with "prime" Kobe struggling mightily to co-exist with beginning-to-decline Wade, and the Mavericks would have been in "wreck shop" mode with nobody able to contain Dirk (or Terry, as we can see from the above review of Terry's work "busting up" All NBA first team, All Defense first team Kobe) ... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13704
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Grind wrote: |
I think we've been going under the assumption that 2011 Kobe falls under prime Kobe. |
Prime Kobe or not, he can't play PF. He's not gonna win a title on a team where Bosh is your interior anchor. Even Jordan couldn't win when his team couldn't get interior stops or boards. Now if you just let Kobe, Wade and Bosh be the core and go get some guys that can board and guard the paint, sure. But the Heat struggled to find a cheap big (cuz bigs cost) and they had to go to a perimeter based defensive scheme, which was made possible because they had a PF sized perimeter player who could play big or small. As far as beating that Dallas team, not gonna happen if you have no one to contain Dirk, bang with Chandler, etc.
FWIW, Kobe finished 4th in MVP voting in 2011 and still made both 1st All-NBA teams. Let's not undersell him for the purposes of this discussion. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
panamaniac Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011 Posts: 11236 Location: PTY
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
the association wrote: | These excuses after excuses ... FFS, are you ever willing to relent when it comes to Kobe? The most ardent LeBron fans acknowledge that he sucked in the 2011 NBA Finals. Personally, I think he played terribly, both from an effort standpoint and an execution standpoint. On the other hand, you seem incapable of the same type of objectivity when it comes to Kobe. We were (bleep) swept by the very team in question with an All NBA first team and All Defense first team Kobe, along with the "best frontcourt in basketball", the GOAT head coach, and the formidable tailwind of three straight NBA Finals appearances and back-to-back titles.
As for the Jason Terry comparison, I'll offer some background. Kobe was an All Defense first team selection in 2011. During the period that most consider his "prime, he was a perennial selection to the All Defense first team, as well. You don't want to hear it, but he was abysmally ineffective on defense for very long stretches during his prime, AND the same was true for the 2010/2011 season. Later in his career, it became a running joke throughout the league that Kobe was still getting All Defense recognition ten years after he last played anything resembling average (at best) defense. Again, on the basis of sustained defensive effort and execution, Kobe wasn't deserving of All Defense recognition (at any level, much less first team) probably since 2003 or so. And that's primarily because during his "prime", as most honest observers recognize, his defense generally suffered as he single-mindedly focused nearly all of his energy on the offensive end of the court.
Now, all of that said ... Jason Terry was SUBSTANTIALLY more effective for the Mavericks against us than he was later against the Heat. And that fact is only being highlighted as relevant b/c you took a gamble with the potshot to diminish LeBron further. Again, nobody I've seen bothers to defend LeBron's 2011 NBA Finals performance. But you went one step further, and you rope-a-doped yourself. Against us two rounds earlier, during a series that Dallas ultimately closed out with a 36 point closeout win (and I underscore that last point because this is a real issue for me ... we have more closeout game blowout losses in the postseason over the past twenty years than probably any team led by a Top 10/15 player in history), Jason Terry played less minutes (31.0 vs. 32.6), scored more points (19.8 vs. 18.0), shot FAR better from the field (58.7 vs. 49.4) and especially from distance (68.4 vs. 39.3), and had better rebounding (2.3 vs. 2.0) and assists (3.8 vs. 3.2) numbers ... again, against US.
So was 2006 Kobe going to do better than 2011 Kobe in stopping Jason Terry if he was magically transported to play for the 2011 Heat? Or what about 2001 Kobe? 2009 Kobe? 2008 Kobe? Which one, exactly? The metal gymnastics are exhausting when it comes to this wishful thinking exercise. So, here's the point ... just as SF LeBron wasn't entirely to blame for SG Terry's performance that postseason, neither was SG Kobe solely responsible for SG Terry's BETTER play against us in the WCSF a month earlier.
As much as LeBron's abysmal performance (at least by his standards) contributed more than anything else on the Heat side to that NBA Finals loss, I suspect that someone as stubborn as "prime" Kobe would have played right into the hands of the Mavericks in 2011, just as he did in 2004 against the Pistons. That Mavericks team was on a mission, one five years in the making after their horrendous disappointment in the 2006 NBA Finals. The Heat would have been in disarray with "prime" Kobe struggling mightily to co-exist with beginning-to-decline Wade, and the Mavericks would have been in "wreck shop" mode with nobody able to contain Dirk (or Terry, as we can see from the above review of Terry's work "busting up" All NBA first team, All Defense first team Kobe) ... |
That's your take dude. But for me it's rather simple. Prime Lebron was held way below his averages, and his tentativeness to assert himself in the 4th Q cost his team the a few games. I do not think Kobe would've had a similar showing, nor do I think he would've been shy about leaving his imprint in the 4th quarter. And with Wade on the wing to relieve pressure, I really don't see how he struggles to create quality looks or generate consistent offense against a defensive perimeter scheme that can't focus solely on him. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
the association Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015 Posts: 1982
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Grind wrote: | the association wrote: | These excuses after excuses ... FFS, are you ever willing to relent when it comes to Kobe? The most ardent LeBron fans acknowledge that he sucked in the 2011 NBA Finals. Personally, I think he played terribly, both from an effort standpoint and an execution standpoint. On the other hand, you seem incapable of the same type of objectivity when it comes to Kobe. We were (bleep) swept by the very team in question with an All NBA first team and All Defense first team Kobe, along with the "best frontcourt in basketball", the GOAT head coach, and the formidable tailwind of three straight NBA Finals appearances and back-to-back titles.
As for the Jason Terry comparison, I'll offer some background. Kobe was an All Defense first team selection in 2011. During the period that most consider his "prime, he was a perennial selection to the All Defense first team, as well. You don't want to hear it, but he was abysmally ineffective on defense for very long stretches during his prime, AND the same was true for the 2010/2011 season. Later in his career, it became a running joke throughout the league that Kobe was still getting All Defense recognition ten years after he last played anything resembling average (at best) defense. Again, on the basis of sustained defensive effort and execution, Kobe wasn't deserving of All Defense recognition (at any level, much less first team) probably since 2003 or so. And that's primarily because during his "prime", as most honest observers recognize, his defense generally suffered as he single-mindedly focused nearly all of his energy on the offensive end of the court.
Now, all of that said ... Jason Terry was SUBSTANTIALLY more effective for the Mavericks against us than he was later against the Heat. And that fact is only being highlighted as relevant b/c you took a gamble with the potshot to diminish LeBron further. Again, nobody I've seen bothers to defend LeBron's 2011 NBA Finals performance. But you went one step further, and you rope-a-doped yourself. Against us two rounds earlier, during a series that Dallas ultimately closed out with a 36 point closeout win (and I underscore that last point because this is a real issue for me ... we have more closeout game blowout losses in the postseason over the past twenty years than probably any team led by a Top 10/15 player in history), Jason Terry played less minutes (31.0 vs. 32.6), scored more points (19.8 vs. 18.0), shot FAR better from the field (58.7 vs. 49.4) and especially from distance (68.4 vs. 39.3), and had better rebounding (2.3 vs. 2.0) and assists (3.8 vs. 3.2) numbers ... again, against US.
So was 2006 Kobe going to do better than 2011 Kobe in stopping Jason Terry if he was magically transported to play for the 2011 Heat? Or what about 2001 Kobe? 2009 Kobe? 2008 Kobe? Which one, exactly? The metal gymnastics are exhausting when it comes to this wishful thinking exercise. So, here's the point ... just as SF LeBron wasn't entirely to blame for SG Terry's performance that postseason, neither was SG Kobe solely responsible for SG Terry's BETTER play against us in the WCSF a month earlier.
As much as LeBron's abysmal performance (at least by his standards) contributed more than anything else on the Heat side to that NBA Finals loss, I suspect that someone as stubborn as "prime" Kobe would have played right into the hands of the Mavericks in 2011, just as he did in 2004 against the Pistons. That Mavericks team was on a mission, one five years in the making after their horrendous disappointment in the 2006 NBA Finals. The Heat would have been in disarray with "prime" Kobe struggling mightily to co-exist with beginning-to-decline Wade, and the Mavericks would have been in "wreck shop" mode with nobody able to contain Dirk (or Terry, as we can see from the above review of Terry's work "busting up" All NBA first team, All Defense first team Kobe) ... |
That's your take dude. But for me it's rather simple. Prime Lebron was held way below his averages, and his tentativeness to assert himself in the 4th Q cost his team the a few games. I do not think Kobe would've had a similar showing, nor do I think he would've been shy about leaving his imprint in the 4th quarter. And with Wade on the wing to relieve pressure, I really don't see how he struggles to create quality looks or generate consistent offense against a defensive perimeter scheme that can't focus solely on him. |
Completely disagree with the assertion that we were watching "prime" LeBron in the 2011 NBA Finals. Completely agree with the assertion that his failure (or inability) to assert himself cost the Heat a few games. Disagree with the suggestion that it's as simple as saying "prime" Kobe would have simply taken over, when his cumulative history in the NBA Finals is far from supportive of that thesis. Disagree with the assertion that prime Kobe wouldn't have struggled against the Mavericks scheme because Wade is first-and-foremost a slasher; he's not the kind of wing(man) that would have helped Kobe exploit that Dallas scheme. Near-prime or prime-adjacent Kobe couldn't win a (bleep) game for us against that Mavericks team, and that was with a supporting cast (I've highlighted it enough by now) that was BETTER than the supporting cast that LeBron was working with on the Heat.
Regardless, since the topic has been derailed to this point ... what's your view re: how "prime" LeBron (and again, 2011 NBA Finals LeBron is essentially the polar opposite of "prime" LeBron) would have fared if he was swapped in for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2003 WCSF, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2004 NBA Finals, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2008 NBA Finals, and also for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2012 WCSF? No point in dwelling on 2005 - 2007, but I'm interested to get your take nonetheless since I generally view the age 24 - age 33 window as the approx. sweet spot for NBA greats ... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
panamaniac Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011 Posts: 11236 Location: PTY
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
the association wrote: | Regardless, since the topic has been derailed to this point ... what's your view re: how "prime" LeBron (and again, 2011 NBA Finals LeBron is essentially the polar opposite of "prime" LeBron) would have fared if he was swapped in for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2003 WCSF, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2004 NBA Finals, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2008 NBA Finals, and also for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2012 WCSF? No point in dwelling on 2005 - 2007, but I'm interested to get your take nonetheless since I generally view the age 24 - age 33 window as the approx. sweet spot for NBA greats ... |
To answer your question, I don't really know. I'll admit I haven't followed LeBron's career as closely as I've followed Kobe's. On a Lakers related note, I do think that those mid 2000s teams would have fared better with LBJ, as those squads were just plain dysfunctional (the Shaq-Kobe dynamic). Perhaps LBJ would've given those teams a boost, and certainly would've meshed more harmoniously with Shaq. Altho I'm not too sure about 03; that was a great Spurs team (imo their best ever, for the simple reason that it featured Duncan at his peak). They also always seemed to have Bron's number. 04 however, I could definitely see him winning on that team. Kobe had an abysmal finals, even tho he was great during that run pre-finals, but LeBron's size and all around talents would have been a favorable matchup for him, particularly when extrapolated by Shaq's play. Plus he always killed the Pistons historically.
Furthermore, I do think '11 LeBron would have elevated pretty much any Lakers roster post-2010. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
the association Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015 Posts: 1982
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Grind wrote: | the association wrote: | Regardless, since the topic has been derailed to this point ... what's your view re: how "prime" LeBron (and again, 2011 NBA Finals LeBron is essentially the polar opposite of "prime" LeBron) would have fared if he was swapped in for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2003 WCSF, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2004 NBA Finals, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2008 NBA Finals, and also for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2012 WCSF? No point in dwelling on 2005 - 2007, but I'm interested to get your take nonetheless since I generally view the age 24 - age 33 window as the approx. sweet spot for NBA greats ... |
To answer your question, I don't really know. I'll admit I haven't followed LeBron's career as closely as I've followed Kobe's. On a Lakers related note, I do think that those mid 2000s teams would have fared better with LBJ, as those squads were just plain dysfunctional (the Shaq-Kobe dynamic). Perhaps LBJ would've given those teams a boost, and certainly would've meshed more harmoniously with Shaq. Altho I'm not too sure about 03; that was a great Spurs team (imo their best ever, for the simple reason that it featured Duncan at his peak). They also always seemed to have Bron's number. 04 however, I could definitely see him winning on that team. Kobe had an abysmal finals, even tho he was great during that run pre-finals, but LeBron's size and all around talents would have been a favorable matchup for him, particularly when extrapolated by Shaq's play. Plus he always killed the Pistons historically.
Furthermore, I do think '11 LeBron would have elevated pretty much any Lakers roster post-2010. |
Good points ... and it's probably easier to consider the "LeBron for Kobe" proposition because he wouldn't be added at the same natural position on the Lakers as an incumbent primary player on the team (e.g., Kobe joining Wade on the Heat in the previous stage of the discussion), so you wouldn't be faced with the challenge of integrating your two best players who naturally play the same position. That said, on an independent trial basis, I think "prime" LeBron would be more than enough to get us over the hump in '03 and '04, possibly in '08 and '12, as well. Of course, that assumes his "peak" play extends over ten full seasons, which is probably unreasonable (i.e., if he would have been good enough and "ready enough" to win in '03, by the time '12 rolled around, I wouldn't feel great projecting him as a viable contender) ...
Anyway, that's my view ... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tagurt Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Jun 2012 Posts: 739
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Grind wrote: | That's your take dude. But for me it's rather simple. Prime Lebron was held way below his averages, and his tentativeness to assert himself in the 4th Q cost his team the a few games. I do not think Kobe would've had a similar showing, nor do I think he would've been shy about leaving his imprint in the 4th quarter. And with Wade on the wing to relieve pressure, I really don't see how he struggles to create quality looks or generate consistent offense against a defensive perimeter scheme that can't focus solely on him. |
I don't see how Lebron's failure in 2011 is any different than Kobe in 2004. They were nearly the same age. Their team went in as the overwhelming favorites. Both performances rank as one of the worst series amongst all time greats, and their superstar teammate both performed above expectation. Replacing Lebron with 'prime Kobe' does not necessarily solve the problem. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
the association Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015 Posts: 1982
|
Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Tagurt wrote: | The Grind wrote: | That's your take dude. But for me it's rather simple. Prime Lebron was held way below his averages, and his tentativeness to assert himself in the 4th Q cost his team the a few games. I do not think Kobe would've had a similar showing, nor do I think he would've been shy about leaving his imprint in the 4th quarter. And with Wade on the wing to relieve pressure, I really don't see how he struggles to create quality looks or generate consistent offense against a defensive perimeter scheme that can't focus solely on him. |
I don't see how Lebron's failure in 2011 is any different than Kobe in 2004. They were nearly the same age. Their team went in as the overwhelming favorites. Both performances rank as one of the worst series amongst all time greats, and their superstar teammate both performed above expectation. Replacing Lebron with 'prime Kobe' does not necessarily solve the problem. |
Well, it's actually interesting that we lost in '04 because Kobe tried to force the issue to prove to everyone that he was up-to-the-task of being "the man" for us (i.e., he tried to do too much), while Miami lost in '11 because LeBron tried to do the exact opposite, yet experienced similar results in the process. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vanexelent Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 30081
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
the association wrote: | The Grind wrote: | the association wrote: | Regardless, since the topic has been derailed to this point ... what's your view re: how "prime" LeBron (and again, 2011 NBA Finals LeBron is essentially the polar opposite of "prime" LeBron) would have fared if he was swapped in for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2003 WCSF, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2004 NBA Finals, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2008 NBA Finals, and also for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2012 WCSF? No point in dwelling on 2005 - 2007, but I'm interested to get your take nonetheless since I generally view the age 24 - age 33 window as the approx. sweet spot for NBA greats ... |
To answer your question, I don't really know. I'll admit I haven't followed LeBron's career as closely as I've followed Kobe's. On a Lakers related note, I do think that those mid 2000s teams would have fared better with LBJ, as those squads were just plain dysfunctional (the Shaq-Kobe dynamic). Perhaps LBJ would've given those teams a boost, and certainly would've meshed more harmoniously with Shaq. Altho I'm not too sure about 03; that was a great Spurs team (imo their best ever, for the simple reason that it featured Duncan at his peak). They also always seemed to have Bron's number. 04 however, I could definitely see him winning on that team. Kobe had an abysmal finals, even tho he was great during that run pre-finals, but LeBron's size and all around talents would have been a favorable matchup for him, particularly when extrapolated by Shaq's play. Plus he always killed the Pistons historically.
Furthermore, I do think '11 LeBron would have elevated pretty much any Lakers roster post-2010. |
Good points ... and it's probably easier to consider the "LeBron for Kobe" proposition because he wouldn't be added at the same natural position on the Lakers as an incumbent primary player on the team (e.g., Kobe joining Wade on the Heat in the previous stage of the discussion), so you wouldn't be faced with the challenge of integrating your two best players who naturally play the same position. That said, on an independent trial basis, I think "prime" LeBron would be more than enough to get us over the hump in '03 and '04, possibly in '08 and '12, as well. Of course, that assumes his "peak" play extends over ten full seasons, which is probably unreasonable (i.e., if he would have been good enough and "ready enough" to win in '03, by the time '12 rolled around, I wouldn't feel great projecting him as a viable contender) ...
Anyway, that's my view ... |
What role would Lebron have in the Triangle? He isn't the catch-and-shoot type 3 shooter that Horry or Fox were. He doesn't get into the mid-range space for jumpers like Kobe or Jordan could do. Would he be a cross between Ron Harper and Pippen? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
the association Star Player
Joined: 03 Feb 2015 Posts: 1982
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
vanexelent wrote: | the association wrote: | The Grind wrote: | the association wrote: | Regardless, since the topic has been derailed to this point ... what's your view re: how "prime" LeBron (and again, 2011 NBA Finals LeBron is essentially the polar opposite of "prime" LeBron) would have fared if he was swapped in for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2003 WCSF, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2004 NBA Finals, and for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2008 NBA Finals, and also for contemporaneous Kobe in the 2012 WCSF? No point in dwelling on 2005 - 2007, but I'm interested to get your take nonetheless since I generally view the age 24 - age 33 window as the approx. sweet spot for NBA greats ... |
To answer your question, I don't really know. I'll admit I haven't followed LeBron's career as closely as I've followed Kobe's. On a Lakers related note, I do think that those mid 2000s teams would have fared better with LBJ, as those squads were just plain dysfunctional (the Shaq-Kobe dynamic). Perhaps LBJ would've given those teams a boost, and certainly would've meshed more harmoniously with Shaq. Altho I'm not too sure about 03; that was a great Spurs team (imo their best ever, for the simple reason that it featured Duncan at his peak). They also always seemed to have Bron's number. 04 however, I could definitely see him winning on that team. Kobe had an abysmal finals, even tho he was great during that run pre-finals, but LeBron's size and all around talents would have been a favorable matchup for him, particularly when extrapolated by Shaq's play. Plus he always killed the Pistons historically.
Furthermore, I do think '11 LeBron would have elevated pretty much any Lakers roster post-2010. |
Good points ... and it's probably easier to consider the "LeBron for Kobe" proposition because he wouldn't be added at the same natural position on the Lakers as an incumbent primary player on the team (e.g., Kobe joining Wade on the Heat in the previous stage of the discussion), so you wouldn't be faced with the challenge of integrating your two best players who naturally play the same position. That said, on an independent trial basis, I think "prime" LeBron would be more than enough to get us over the hump in '03 and '04, possibly in '08 and '12, as well. Of course, that assumes his "peak" play extends over ten full seasons, which is probably unreasonable (i.e., if he would have been good enough and "ready enough" to win in '03, by the time '12 rolled around, I wouldn't feel great projecting him as a viable contender) ...
Anyway, that's my view ... |
What role would Lebron have in the Triangle? He isn't the catch-and-shoot type 3 shooter that Horry or Fox were. He doesn't get into the mid-range space for jumpers like Kobe or Jordan could do. Would he be a cross between Ron Harper and Pippen? |
Due to the player in question, I'm not sure if it would come down to "role". However, below are a few of my thoughts on the question, which is a great one ...
1. LeBron is purportedly off-the-charts when it comes to the cerebral aspects of the game (to say nothing of the physical aspects), so I think he would more likely than not dominate in a system with a read-and-react emphasis. And I don't subscribe to the view that LeBron "needs" the ball in his hands, but I also don't think it really matters as it relates to the triangle because Kobe spent almost his entire career in the triangle and his USG% is actually higher than LeBron's career equivalent. The ball moves, of course, but it stops somewhere ...
2. When it comes to passing, cutting and screening, what can't he do exceptionally well (or at least as proficiently [or better] as/than Jordan and Kobe)?
3. I tend to think that shooting prowess is the least of the concerns in the triangle. However, the shooting numbers suggest that he's actually competitive with Kobe in the mid-range and from distance anyway when he's playing in a movement offense (pace and space vs. triangle) ... LeBron was a .439 shooter in the 10 - 16 ft. area, a .413 shooter in the 16 - 3 area, and a .369 shooter from distance during his four seasons in Miami. Kobe was at .439, .402 and .329 respectively during his career. Those numbers for LeBron are favorably distorted a bit by the fact that Miami also ran a double high post offense at times earlier in LeBron's tenure, but I think the latter part is when his shooting from distance experienced an uptick anyway. Also potentially distorting the picture is the fact that Kobe didn't play in a triangle offense at the beginning and end of his career. Regardless, I think LeBron would be more than fine in this area within the triangle.
4. Kobe played a hybrid role in our triangle, right, so I'm guessing that's what LeBron would have done, as well.
Anyway, those are my thoughts ... I'm not close to the systems in Miami or Cleveland, so I don't have anything meatier than those arms-length observations. I definitely didn't/don't watch all of their games. But maybe someone wonkier will have better insight on this one. Ultimately, though, I just think that LeBron's so overwhelming on the court from the perspective of the defense that he just finds ways to dominate, regardless the system. And therein really lies his greatest strength, IMO. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13704
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tagurt wrote: | The Grind wrote: | That's your take dude. But for me it's rather simple. Prime Lebron was held way below his averages, and his tentativeness to assert himself in the 4th Q cost his team the a few games. I do not think Kobe would've had a similar showing, nor do I think he would've been shy about leaving his imprint in the 4th quarter. And with Wade on the wing to relieve pressure, I really don't see how he struggles to create quality looks or generate consistent offense against a defensive perimeter scheme that can't focus solely on him. |
I don't see how Lebron's failure in 2011 is any different than Kobe in 2004. They were nearly the same age. Their team went in as the overwhelming favorites. Both performances rank as one of the worst series amongst all time greats, and their superstar teammate both performed above expectation. Replacing Lebron with 'prime Kobe' does not necessarily solve the problem. |
It's really not. Both played like garbage. Some choose selfishness over being passive but both were horrible. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vanexelent Retired Number
Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 30081
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
the association wrote: | vanexelent wrote: |
What role would Lebron have in the Triangle? He isn't the catch-and-shoot type 3 shooter that Horry or Fox were. He doesn't get into the mid-range space for jumpers like Kobe or Jordan could do. Would he be a cross between Ron Harper and Pippen? |
Due to the player in question, I'm not sure if it would come down to "role". However, below are a few of my thoughts on the question, which is a great one ...
1. LeBron is purportedly off-the-charts when it comes to the cerebral aspects of the game (to say nothing of the physical aspects), so I think he would more likely than not dominate in a system with a read-and-react emphasis. And I don't subscribe to the view that LeBron "needs" the ball in his hands, but I also don't think it really matters as it relates to the triangle because Kobe spent almost his entire career in the triangle and his USG% is actually higher than LeBron's career equivalent. The ball moves, of course, but it stops somewhere ...
2. When it comes to passing, cutting and screening, what can't he do exceptionally well (or at least as proficiently [or better] as/than Jordan and Kobe)?
3. I tend to think that shooting prowess is the least of the concerns in the triangle. However, the shooting numbers suggest that he's actually competitive with Kobe in the mid-range and from distance anyway when he's playing in a movement offense (pace and space vs. triangle) ... LeBron was a .439 shooter in the 10 - 16 ft. area, a .413 shooter in the 16 - 3 area, and a .369 shooter from distance during his four seasons in Miami. Kobe was at .439, .402 and .329 respectively during his career. Those numbers for LeBron are favorably distorted a bit by the fact that Miami also ran a double high post offense at times earlier in LeBron's tenure, but I think the latter part is when his shooting from distance experienced an uptick anyway. Also potentially distorting the picture is the fact that Kobe didn't play in a triangle offense at the beginning and end of his career. Regardless, I think LeBron would be more than fine in this area within the triangle.
4. Kobe played a hybrid role in our triangle, right, so I'm guessing that's what LeBron would have done, as well.
Anyway, those are my thoughts ... I'm not close to the systems in Miami or Cleveland, so I don't have anything meatier than those arms-length observations. I definitely didn't/don't watch all of their games. But maybe someone wonkier will have better insight on this one. Ultimately, though, I just think that LeBron's so overwhelming on the court from the perspective of the defense that he just finds ways to dominate, regardless the system. And therein really lies his greatest strength, IMO. |
I think the biggest challenge would be the size of Shaq (or even Gasol) and spacing. Lebron has succeeded when playing without a traditional big man, who post up the majority of time. He played some off-ball stuff with the Heat and had success, but we all know his dominance is in the open court and taking it to the rim. Shaq would alter that style up tremendously, unless every play would look like the Kobe to Shaq ally-oop vs the Blazers in 00'. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tagurt Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Jun 2012 Posts: 739
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
vanexelent wrote: | What role would Lebron have in the Triangle? He isn't the catch-and-shoot type 3 shooter that Horry or Fox were. He doesn't get into the mid-range space for jumpers like Kobe or Jordan could do. Would he be a cross between Ron Harper and Pippen? |
Lebron never had the coaching needed to fix his jumper. When Kobe came into the league he didn't know how to hit jumpshots either. Did you ever question that Kobe wouldn't fit in the triangle? Lebron is cerebral enough about the game to make the necessary adjustments to play under Phil, and in the off chance that he doesn't Phil will adjust his system to Lebron's needs just like he did with Kobe.
vanexelent wrote: |
I think the biggest challenge would be the size of Shaq (or even Gasol) and spacing. Lebron has succeeded when playing without a traditional big man, who post up the majority of time. He played some off-ball stuff with the Heat and had success, but we all know his dominance is in the open court and taking it to the rim. Shaq would alter that style up tremendously, unless every play would look like the Kobe to Shaq ally-oop vs the Blazers in 00'. |
Lebron played with old Big Ben, old Shaq, and Joel Anthony. None of them are spacing bigs. The spacing issue with Lebron is overblown. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
panamaniac Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011 Posts: 11236 Location: PTY
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
I could see LeBron's role in the triangle being more akin to Scottie Pippen's. Think 1994 Pippen on steroids. His rebounding, pushing the ball up in transition, finishing and dishing would all be areas of emphasis that Phil would want to exploit. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AshesToAshes Star Player
Joined: 20 Jun 2009 Posts: 4837
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dreamshake wrote: | AshesToAshes wrote: |
also a fact you can do something "wrong" without breaking the rules/law. and even the definition says "OR illegal" so legality isn't the only factor. |
But no one did anything wrong. Free agents are free to play wherever they want. Either way, it's clearly not colluding. That's a fact.
AshesToAshes wrote: |
it is a fact LBJ has afforded himself more effective control of his teammates/location. And it should produce better results. |
Sure, one of the benefits of free agency. It's why players fought for it, to get some type of control over their careers. But he still spent around half of his career playing without a star teammate. He's had 6 seasons with the type of support some had for the overwhelming majority of their careers. 6 Finals....3 titles. |
you mean he spent his rookie years without other all-stars.
fact is free agency is all about the secret definition of collusion. likely the first time in history 3 all-stars in the same conference placed themselves on the same team. what you describe is more Durant to GSW than LBJ to miami. And back on point, MJ/Kobe never had that, so LBJ has work todo. Being a dbag has nothing todo with legality of a situation. _________________ KOBE!!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144412 Location: The Gold Coast
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
AshesToAshes wrote: | i guess it's a requirement in having this debate, to ignore the fact that...
lebron colluded with 2 other all-stars in his prime to win his first ring... and then... left that team under the "going home" banner to return to pair up with the best upcoming young pg in kyrie?
being this type of dbag should be automatic dq from this convo.
disappointed with max's comments also. "he's #1 goat of non-big, non-jordan, non-blonde, non-laker, non-non with a maximum 2 finals losses even though he lost 4 times but had one good comeback series if you ignore the mvp was injured and his best defender, put your left shoe on first and eats breakfast everyday. He's #1 out of them."
in the end if LBJ and his collusion, short contracts and team jumping doesn't end up with minimum 6 rings he's a bust. But will be gloated by the media as #2 goat no matter what because he was the long-awaited physical talent the NBA wanted to move away from "accused rapist" / won't play nice with the league (and Shaq) Kobe.
The rest of this debate is everyone getting baited to tear down the real greats to close the actual LBJ gap that exists; cuz that dbag knows he can't close it himself for you. |
Didn't take long to run from the idea of using "facts" _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13704
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
vanexelent wrote: | the association wrote: | vanexelent wrote: |
What role would Lebron have in the Triangle? He isn't the catch-and-shoot type 3 shooter that Horry or Fox were. He doesn't get into the mid-range space for jumpers like Kobe or Jordan could do. Would he be a cross between Ron Harper and Pippen? |
Due to the player in question, I'm not sure if it would come down to "role". However, below are a few of my thoughts on the question, which is a great one ...
1. LeBron is purportedly off-the-charts when it comes to the cerebral aspects of the game (to say nothing of the physical aspects), so I think he would more likely than not dominate in a system with a read-and-react emphasis. And I don't subscribe to the view that LeBron "needs" the ball in his hands, but I also don't think it really matters as it relates to the triangle because Kobe spent almost his entire career in the triangle and his USG% is actually higher than LeBron's career equivalent. The ball moves, of course, but it stops somewhere ...
2. When it comes to passing, cutting and screening, what can't he do exceptionally well (or at least as proficiently [or better] as/than Jordan and Kobe)?
3. I tend to think that shooting prowess is the least of the concerns in the triangle. However, the shooting numbers suggest that he's actually competitive with Kobe in the mid-range and from distance anyway when he's playing in a movement offense (pace and space vs. triangle) ... LeBron was a .439 shooter in the 10 - 16 ft. area, a .413 shooter in the 16 - 3 area, and a .369 shooter from distance during his four seasons in Miami. Kobe was at .439, .402 and .329 respectively during his career. Those numbers for LeBron are favorably distorted a bit by the fact that Miami also ran a double high post offense at times earlier in LeBron's tenure, but I think the latter part is when his shooting from distance experienced an uptick anyway. Also potentially distorting the picture is the fact that Kobe didn't play in a triangle offense at the beginning and end of his career. Regardless, I think LeBron would be more than fine in this area within the triangle.
4. Kobe played a hybrid role in our triangle, right, so I'm guessing that's what LeBron would have done, as well.
Anyway, those are my thoughts ... I'm not close to the systems in Miami or Cleveland, so I don't have anything meatier than those arms-length observations. I definitely didn't/don't watch all of their games. But maybe someone wonkier will have better insight on this one. Ultimately, though, I just think that LeBron's so overwhelming on the court from the perspective of the defense that he just finds ways to dominate, regardless the system. And therein really lies his greatest strength, IMO. |
I think the biggest challenge would be the size of Shaq (or even Gasol) and spacing. Lebron has succeeded when playing without a traditional big man, who post up the majority of time. He played some off-ball stuff with the Heat and had success, but we all know his dominance is in the open court and taking it to the rim. Shaq would alter that style up tremendously, unless every play would look like the Kobe to Shaq ally-oop vs the Blazers in 00'. |
I actually think it wouldn't be a challenge at all. When LeBron drives if you don't commit extra bodies you are dead. Well, you can't commit extra bodies with Shaq there. If you do you are dead. Who do you want to dunk on you?
Drexler was a slasher and having Dream in the paint made it much easier for him to attack the basket. Sure, there is another body there but you can't leave that body to contest. Even if you force a miss you are giving up an offensive board. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13704
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
AshesToAshes wrote: |
you mean he spent his rookie years without other all-stars. |
If by rookie years you mean 2003-2010, sure. I guess 7 years is a long time to be a rookie.
AshesToAshes wrote: |
fact is free agency is all about the secret definition of collusion. |
Secret definition? What about the real, actual definition? The one that notes something illegal? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tagurt Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Jun 2012 Posts: 739
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
AshesToAshes wrote: | you mean he spent his rookie years without other all-stars.
fact is free agency is all about the secret definition of collusion. likely the first time in history 3 all-stars in the same conference placed themselves on the same team. what you describe is more Durant to GSW than LBJ to miami. And back on point, MJ/Kobe never had that, so LBJ has work todo. Being a dbag has nothing todo with legality of a situation. |
MJ and Kobe never needed it either. They already have a good enough team that they wouldn't find a better one if they leave. In Kobe's case, when it wasn't good enough he demanded to leave. Are you okay with Kobe demanding out when he was still under contract or are you pretending that it didn't happen? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
panamaniac Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011 Posts: 11236 Location: PTY
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Tagurt wrote: | AshesToAshes wrote: | you mean he spent his rookie years without other all-stars.
fact is free agency is all about the secret definition of collusion. likely the first time in history 3 all-stars in the same conference placed themselves on the same team. what you describe is more Durant to GSW than LBJ to miami. And back on point, MJ/Kobe never had that, so LBJ has work todo. Being a dbag has nothing todo with legality of a situation. |
MJ and Kobe never needed it either. They already have a good enough team that they wouldn't find a better one if they leave. In Kobe's case, when it wasn't good enough he demanded to leave. Are you okay with Kobe demanding out when he was still under contract or are you pretending that it didn't happen? |
He contemplated leaving and stayed. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dreamshake Franchise Player
Joined: 05 May 2006 Posts: 13704
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Grind wrote: | Tagurt wrote: | AshesToAshes wrote: | you mean he spent his rookie years without other all-stars.
fact is free agency is all about the secret definition of collusion. likely the first time in history 3 all-stars in the same conference placed themselves on the same team. what you describe is more Durant to GSW than LBJ to miami. And back on point, MJ/Kobe never had that, so LBJ has work todo. Being a dbag has nothing todo with legality of a situation. |
MJ and Kobe never needed it either. They already have a good enough team that they wouldn't find a better one if they leave. In Kobe's case, when it wasn't good enough he demanded to leave. Are you okay with Kobe demanding out when he was still under contract or are you pretending that it didn't happen? |
He contemplated leaving and stayed. |
If by stayed you mean the owner wouldn't trade him, sure. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
panamaniac Franchise Player
Joined: 28 May 2011 Posts: 11236 Location: PTY
|
Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dreamshake wrote: | The Grind wrote: | Tagurt wrote: | AshesToAshes wrote: | you mean he spent his rookie years without other all-stars.
fact is free agency is all about the secret definition of collusion. likely the first time in history 3 all-stars in the same conference placed themselves on the same team. what you describe is more Durant to GSW than LBJ to miami. And back on point, MJ/Kobe never had that, so LBJ has work todo. Being a dbag has nothing todo with legality of a situation. |
MJ and Kobe never needed it either. They already have a good enough team that they wouldn't find a better one if they leave. In Kobe's case, when it wasn't good enough he demanded to leave. Are you okay with Kobe demanding out when he was still under contract or are you pretending that it didn't happen? |
He contemplated leaving and stayed. |
If by stayed you mean the owner wouldn't trade him, sure. |
Didn't he veto a trade to the Bulls? Or Clips... I forget which one.
Edit: It was Detroit my bad |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|