LeBron vs Mike - Teams Beaten for Rings
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Telleris
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:23 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
The Grind wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.

Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.


If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.


Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?


If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.


Yet he had Shaq, Malone and Payton and lost to the Pistons.


Malone and Payton combined for less than 10ppg.

Yup. Tired of the crap on losing the finals to pistons blamed on Kobe. These haters will never never ever tell you how badder was the entire Lakers outside Shaq n Kobe. These haters keep saying Kobe shot 38% n the reason LA lost.
I WOULD LIKE TO CHALLENGE THE HATERS TO REVEAL THE SUPPORTING CAST'S STATS FOR THE FINALS AND COMPARED IT WITH KOBE'S 38%.


Kobe deserves the criticism he got from 2004, he was in it for him, and that team was dysfunctional, and Lebron deserved the criticism he got in 2011, he couldn't even post up barea ffs. Both players improved markedly on that as their careers progressed too.

But it seems like its necessary to argue that fav player x is perfect all the time...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:09 pm    Post subject:

Telleris wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
The Grind wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
I feel like the critique that LeBron always beat weak teams should die now that he beat the 73-9 Warriors.

Look how many times kobe beat the spurs just to make the finals. Now imagine lebron needing to beat them that many times just to get to all those finals.


If you give LeBron Shaq, he isn't going to lose to any of those Spurs teams. They couldn't focus the entire defense on him due to Shaq (which is necessary). He avg's 28 ppg on 50% against Bowen when he was playing with Cleveland and no other great offensive player. I doubt LeBron and Shaq would ever lose a title. Both are too physically imposing.


Wouldn't Shaq clog up the lane and prevent LeBron from driving?


If you gave Kobe Wade and Bosh, in his prime, he wouldn't have lost to Dallas or the Spurs.


Yet he had Shaq, Malone and Payton and lost to the Pistons.


Malone and Payton combined for less than 10ppg.

Yup. Tired of the crap on losing the finals to pistons blamed on Kobe. These haters will never never ever tell you how badder was the entire Lakers outside Shaq n Kobe. These haters keep saying Kobe shot 38% n the reason LA lost.
I WOULD LIKE TO CHALLENGE THE HATERS TO REVEAL THE SUPPORTING CAST'S STATS FOR THE FINALS AND COMPARED IT WITH KOBE'S 38%.


Kobe deserves the criticism he got from 2004, he was in it for him, and that team was dysfunctional, and Lebron deserved the criticism he got in 2011, he couldn't even post up barea ffs. Both players improved markedly on that as their careers progressed too.

But it seems like its necessary to argue that fav player x is perfect all the time...

eh sorry, you got a point there.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:49 pm    Post subject:

The Grind wrote:
I don't think Kobe would've let a 27/7/5 performance from Wade go to waste, or a 19/7 from Bosh for that matter. Put a prime Kobe on that team and there is no chance in hell he sh*ts out a 17ppg bronze egg ala LBJ.


A prime Kobe on that team doesn't help Miami beat Dallas. They would lose for the exact same reason Kobe lost to them in 2011....no one to handle Dirk and the frontcourt would get outplayed. You aren't winning any titles with Bosh as your interior presence, supported by Haslem and Joel Anthony. And as far as Bosh's 19/7, he shot 41% in that series and couldn't check Dirk.

Sure, Kobe and Wade could score, but ya gotta get stops and rebounds at some point.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:58 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
bosh, when stilla t toronto, was considered a top player in the league. don't know how high, but top 10 is a fine way to describe it.


Top 10 isn't a fine way to describe it because he was never considered a top 10 player. There isn't one season in his career where you can't list 10 guys you would take over him. More than 10 actually.

SuperboyReformed wrote:

wade, for sure, for sure...for several years, especially during the shaq years, was considered a top 3 talent like kobe, and lebron. before lebron joined, he was up there with leborn, kobe. so there's that.


No he wasn't. Wade came into the league in 2003. No one is taking Wade over Duncan, Kobe or LeBron until 2009 at the earliest (not to mention KG). And assuming Duncan drops off the list circa 2009 (cuz he led a team to a title in 07 and the WCF's in 08), enter Durant.

Pre LeBron Wade hadn't been past round 1 in 4 years. The Heat had a top pick on his watch (due to injuries). He was great but not that level of great.

SuperboyReformed wrote:

he was never better, but many people (the majority) were putting him on that level. all you have to do is browse the forums here during that time.


Browse these forums during that time and you will see multiple threads questioning if Gasol is as good as McHale, how the Bynum/Gasol frontcourt stacks up to historically great ones, etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:12 am    Post subject:

i guess it's a requirement in having this debate, to ignore the fact that...

lebron colluded with 2 other all-stars in his prime to win his first ring... and then... left that team under the "going home" banner to return to pair up with the best upcoming young pg in kyrie?

being this type of dbag should be automatic dq from this convo.

disappointed with max's comments also. "he's #1 goat of non-big, non-jordan, non-blonde, non-laker, non-non with a maximum 2 finals losses even though he lost 4 times but had one good comeback series if you ignore the mvp was injured and his best defender, put your left shoe on first and eats breakfast everyday. He's #1 out of them."

in the end if LBJ and his collusion, short contracts and team jumping doesn't end up with minimum 6 rings he's a bust. But will be gloated by the media as #2 goat no matter what because he was the long-awaited physical talent the NBA wanted to move away from "accused rapist" / won't play nice with the league (and Shaq) Kobe.

The rest of this debate is everyone getting baited to tear down the real greats to close the actual LBJ gap that exists; cuz that dbag knows he can't close it himself for you.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:56 am    Post subject:

When you're in the convo of GOAT, all the contenders have all world stats/individual accolades/individual trophies, stuff you can use to argue til ur blue... what separates them is the ring count

I thought Kobe needed at least 7 to get into the convo alongsode MJ/Kareem at the throne, same goes to LeBron

It's still MJ, Kareem and maybe Magic at the top
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject:

The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:02 am    Post subject:

the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.

espn couldn't have written it better herself.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject:

AshesToAshes wrote:
i guess it's a requirement in having this debate, to ignore the fact that...

lebron colluded with 2 other all-stars in his prime to win his first ring


Since we are talking facts:

col·lu·sion
noun
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others

There was nothing illegal about what the Heatles did and the league is on record noting the same. You can't prevent players from talking to one another and free agents can play wherever they like.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:17 am    Post subject:

the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.


I think he's already top 10 for sure. I don't know about that top 5 talk though. That group is tough to crack.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.


espn couldn't have written it better herself.


I prefer writing in coherent, complete sentences and putting forth exactly what I think on a given topic. Some individuals probably appreciate the effort. However, I understand that others seem to gravitate more towards screeds that are brimming over with an emo blend of victim-complex, echo chamber and crybaby / crybully nonsense. Still others like the odd placement of punctuation or the [hit-and-run troll attack + emoji] models. All of these seem to find a more accommodating audience here at times.

You don't have to agree with me, SBR. It's perfectly fine for you to retain your views.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:26 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.


I think he's already top 10 for sure. I don't know about that top 5 talk though. That group is tough to crack.


The two largest sports media outlets in the U.S. had him at #3 and #5 BEFORE the 2016 NBA Finals ... both of those rankings involved the composite assessment of literally dozens upon dozens of professionals who cover professional basketball, along with other amateur and professional sports. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that viewpoint. So if you don't think consensus actually means what I think it means, how do you propose we find agreement on his "actual" ranking?

You "think" Top 10, but not Top 5. I think Top 10 for certain, and probably Top 5 already. ESPN and SI, amongst a small group of significant + reputable purveyors of sports coverage, agree with my view. So what are all of those sports journalists missing?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:46 am    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.


I think he's already top 10 for sure. I don't know about that top 5 talk though. That group is tough to crack.


The two largest sports media outlets in the U.S. had him at #3 and #5 BEFORE the 2016 NBA Finals ... both of those rankings involved the composite assessment of literally dozens upon dozens of professionals who cover professional basketball, along with other amateur and professional sports. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that viewpoint. So if you don't think consensus actually means what I think it means, how do you propose we find agreement on his "actual" ranking?

You "think" Top 10, but not Top 5. I think Top 10 for certain, and probably Top 5 already. ESPN and SI, amongst a small group of significant + reputable purveyors of sports coverage, agree with my view. So what are all of those sports journalists missing?


Who are these "journalists" you're referring to? If it's your view, it's view, but because Brian Windhurst agrees with you, doesn't add any weight to it.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:52 am    Post subject:

the association wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.


espn couldn't have written it better herself.


I prefer writing in coherent, complete sentences and putting forth exactly what I think on a given topic. Some individuals probably appreciate the effort. However, I understand that others seem to gravitate more towards screeds that are brimming over with an emo blend of victim-complex, echo chamber and crybaby / crybully nonsense. Still others like the odd placement of punctuation or the [hit-and-run troll attack + emoji] models. All of these seem to find a more accommodating audience here at times.

You don't have to agree with me, SBR. It's perfectly fine for you to retain your views.

I don't know what is happening here. You've bolded herself and wrote a bunch of stuff. You write beautifully, by the way, I hope it didn't seem like I was criticizing that or something. the herself bit is just a joke for espn.

i definitely don't agree with you, but please don't change your writing! that's the best part, lol!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:58 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
the association wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.


I think he's already top 10 for sure. I don't know about that top 5 talk though. That group is tough to crack.


The two largest sports media outlets in the U.S. had him at #3 and #5 BEFORE the 2016 NBA Finals ... both of those rankings involved the composite assessment of literally dozens upon dozens of professionals who cover professional basketball, along with other amateur and professional sports. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that viewpoint. So if you don't think consensus actually means what I think it means, how do you propose we find agreement on his "actual" ranking?

You "think" Top 10, but not Top 5. I think Top 10 for certain, and probably Top 5 already. ESPN and SI, amongst a small group of significant + reputable purveyors of sports coverage, agree with my view. So what are all of those sports journalists missing?


Who are these "journalists" you're referring to? If it's your view, it's view, but because Brian Windhurst agrees with you, doesn't add any weight to it.

exactly. i don't think there's any argument about the general opinion, especially in the media, of lebron. the question is whether what the media is saying agrees with whatever we non journalists are trying to say. to just say your point is proven and site more media stuff has no value because that is the whole point of the question. if they media didn't think lebron was a top5 or this goat player, i wouldn't be arguing about it. It would be like arguing "is john wall a top 5 player ever?"

you can bring more and more journalists to the table, i wouldn;t care at all. I already know they think lebron is top 5 or whatever, i really don't need anymore evidence of it.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:17 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
The Grind wrote:
I don't think Kobe would've let a 27/7/5 performance from Wade go to waste, or a 19/7 from Bosh for that matter. Put a prime Kobe on that team and there is no chance in hell he sh*ts out a 17ppg bronze egg ala LBJ.


A prime Kobe on that team doesn't help Miami beat Dallas. They would lose for the exact same reason Kobe lost to them in 2011....no one to handle Dirk and the frontcourt would get outplayed. You aren't winning any titles with Bosh as your interior presence, supported by Haslem and Joel Anthony. And as far as Bosh's 19/7, he shot 41% in that series and couldn't check Dirk.

Sure, Kobe and Wade could score, but ya gotta get stops and rebounds at some point.


I could definitely see him dropping more than 8 points on the swing game (4th game) of the series. If Miami wins that game then they're in the driver's seat. That series was closer than people think. LeBron's refusal to be any semblance of a difference maker was definitely perplexing to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:31 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
the association wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.


I think he's already top 10 for sure. I don't know about that top 5 talk though. That group is tough to crack.


The two largest sports media outlets in the U.S. had him at #3 and #5 BEFORE the 2016 NBA Finals ... both of those rankings involved the composite assessment of literally dozens upon dozens of professionals who cover professional basketball, along with other amateur and professional sports. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that viewpoint. So if you don't think consensus actually means what I think it means, how do you propose we find agreement on his "actual" ranking?

You "think" Top 10, but not Top 5. I think Top 10 for certain, and probably Top 5 already. ESPN and SI, amongst a small group of significant + reputable purveyors of sports coverage, agree with my view. So what are all of those sports journalists missing?


Who are these "journalists" you're referring to? If it's your view, it's view, but because Brian Windhurst agrees with you, doesn't add any weight to it.


I'm not going to create a library of resources for you ... but below are a few links that speak to the sources for the two major rankings that I cited earlier.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/ESPN-Forecast-panel-130415/espn-forecast-panel

http://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/135596/20160222/microsoft-helped-espn-top-100-time-nba-rankings.htm

210 individuals (I had read elsewhere that the number was smaller for the composite ESPN ranking [in the 50 - 125 range], but regardless) and someone like Jack McCallum, all of whom have been doing this for a living for many years ... or you, miamichico305, SBR, Luke, 24, Lakers2015, AshestoAshes, GT, dmorans, marga86, DMR, hoopschick29 and those who share your view ... the difference for me is that I don't have any specific evidence that any of those individuals in the former group also have some kind of bias or ax to grind with any specific player. But I've seen over and over again that the same cannot be said of the latter group ...

So ... we don't agree. That doesn't upset me. I'm assuming it doesn't matter to you, as well. That's life.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:01 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
the association wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
the association wrote:
The general consensus amongst members of the sports media (i.e., those whose careers involve covering amateur and/or professional sports for a living) and non-Lakers fans alike (along with some Lakers fans) is that LeBron has already created separation after passing by Kobe's 20-year legacy in these first 13 years of his career. There are exceptions like Adrian Wojnarowski or Skip Bayless, but their true believer cults have simply become a boisterous minority at this point. Trust and believe, most credible observers don't believe LeBron needs to win as much as another ring (or even as much as another game) to be considered in the Top 10 NBA Players ever to play the game. And truth be told, I already see a Top 5 ranking for LeBron just about everywhere. So the sustained effort by the minority to diminish his accomplishments (e.g., "he colluded to create a superteam with two other All Stars", "he slunk home when the Heat were on the decline to join another superteam", "the NBA marketing machinery and the media have overhyped him", "he's not clutch", "he gets all the calls", "rings are the only differentiator that matters", "LeBronze!", etc.) is losing its steam with impartial and informed observers alike. They just don't care, or hold any of these real, imagined or wholly-manufactured slights against him enough to share these extreme positions any longer. They just don't. If you try hard enough, you can find enough fault with anyone. But the ship has sailed on this dream of holding back the tide re: LeBron, IMO ...

Barring a future PR scandal that involves acts of moral turpitude, the guy is already there. Even though he's banked unprecedented goodwill already, we dwell in such a judgmental, angry society that such a scandal is the only possibility of damaging his legacy at this point.


I think he's already top 10 for sure. I don't know about that top 5 talk though. That group is tough to crack.


The two largest sports media outlets in the U.S. had him at #3 and #5 BEFORE the 2016 NBA Finals ... both of those rankings involved the composite assessment of literally dozens upon dozens of professionals who cover professional basketball, along with other amateur and professional sports. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to that viewpoint. So if you don't think consensus actually means what I think it means, how do you propose we find agreement on his "actual" ranking?

You "think" Top 10, but not Top 5. I think Top 10 for certain, and probably Top 5 already. ESPN and SI, amongst a small group of significant + reputable purveyors of sports coverage, agree with my view. So what are all of those sports journalists missing?


Who are these "journalists" you're referring to? If it's your view, it's view, but because Brian Windhurst agrees with you, doesn't add any weight to it.


I'm not going to create a library of resources for you ... but below are a few links that speak to the sources for the two major rankings that I cited earlier.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/ESPN-Forecast-panel-130415/espn-forecast-panel

http://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/135596/20160222/microsoft-helped-espn-top-100-time-nba-rankings.htm

210 individuals (I had read elsewhere that the number was smaller for the composite ESPN ranking [in the 50 - 125 range], but regardless) and someone like Jack McCallum, all of whom have been doing this for a living for many years ... or you, miamichico305, SBR, Luke, 24, Lakers2015, AshestoAshes, GT, dmorans, marga86, DMR, hoopschick29 and those who share your view ... the difference for me is that I don't have any specific evidence that any of those individuals in the former group also have some kind of bias or ax to grind with any specific player. But I've seen over and over again that the same cannot be said of the latter group ...

So ... we don't agree. That doesn't upset me. I'm assuming it doesn't matter to you, as well. That's life.



There's plenty of reason to believe that sports entertainment journalists have biases towards certain players. You just choose to ignore it.
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the association
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:12 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
There's plenty of reason to believe that sports entertainment journalists have biases towards certain players. You just choose to ignore it.


I choose to ignore it because it's nothing more than bias-driven conjecture and wishful thinking straight out of an echo chamber ... otherwise, what's the evidence to the contrary? That they just don't like Kobe and they also just happen to love LeBron? That's the bargain here? That's what you think everyone else should be seeing? I just don't know what to tell you. I don't see it the way you do.

The only athlete I've ever witnessed being actively targeted by the media was Barry Bonds ... the guy viewed the media with the greatest contempt imaginable, and the media was BRUTAL toward that guy as a consequence. But this is not a Barry Bonds situation. Kobe and LeBron were both the focal points for the NBA and its media partners for years. I see that, but you see Kobe being slighted unfairly and LeBron being praised unfairly. Well, I guess I think this conspiracy theory that they didn't want to give Kobe his due credit is borderline delusional ... same with this idea that they hype LeBron any more than they've hyped their best players in the past.

Anyway, I think LeBron's already cemented his status in the Top 10 (and probably the Top 5, certainly so if his trajectory maintains any kind of momentum) ... I still have Kobe in that 8 - 15 range, which again, aligns with the consensus view of most media assessments I've seen over the past few years.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
There's plenty of reason to believe that sports entertainment journalists have biases towards certain players. You just choose to ignore it.


I choose to ignore it because it's nothing more than bias-driven conjecture and wishful thinking straight out of an echo chamber ... otherwise, what's the evidence to the contrary? That they just don't like Kobe and they also just happen to love LeBron? That's the bargain here? That's what you think everyone else should be seeing? I just don't know what to tell you. I don't see it the way you do.

The only athlete I've ever witnessed being actively targeted by the media was Barry Bonds ... the guy viewed the media with the greatest contempt imaginable, and the media was BRUTAL toward that guy as a consequence. But this is not a Barry Bonds situation. Kobe and LeBron were both the focal points for the NBA and its media partners for years. I see that, but you see Kobe being slighted unfairly and LeBron being praised unfairly. Well, I guess I think this conspiracy theory that they didn't want to give Kobe his due credit is borderline delusional ... same with this idea that they hype LeBron any more than they've hyped their best players in the past.

Anyway, I think LeBron's already cemented his status in the Top 10 (and probably the Top 5, certainly so if his trajectory maintains any kind of momentum) ... I still have Kobe in that 8 - 15 range, which again, aligns with the consensus view of most media assessments I've seen over the past few years.


I have both Lebron and Kobe in the top 10. I dont' believe I'm showing a bias or hatred toward Lebron by not putting him in the top 5. Nor do I think you dislike Kobe if you put him out of the top 10.

But, frankly I find it more reasonable to put Kobe in the top 10 than Lebron in the Top 5.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:48 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
the association wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
There's plenty of reason to believe that sports entertainment journalists have biases towards certain players. You just choose to ignore it.


I choose to ignore it because it's nothing more than bias-driven conjecture and wishful thinking straight out of an echo chamber ... otherwise, what's the evidence to the contrary? That they just don't like Kobe and they also just happen to love LeBron? That's the bargain here? That's what you think everyone else should be seeing? I just don't know what to tell you. I don't see it the way you do.

The only athlete I've ever witnessed being actively targeted by the media was Barry Bonds ... the guy viewed the media with the greatest contempt imaginable, and the media was BRUTAL toward that guy as a consequence. But this is not a Barry Bonds situation. Kobe and LeBron were both the focal points for the NBA and its media partners for years. I see that, but you see Kobe being slighted unfairly and LeBron being praised unfairly. Well, I guess I think this conspiracy theory that they didn't want to give Kobe his due credit is borderline delusional ... same with this idea that they hype LeBron any more than they've hyped their best players in the past.

Anyway, I think LeBron's already cemented his status in the Top 10 (and probably the Top 5, certainly so if his trajectory maintains any kind of momentum) ... I still have Kobe in that 8 - 15 range, which again, aligns with the consensus view of most media assessments I've seen over the past few years.


I have both Lebron and Kobe in the top 10. I dont' believe I'm showing a bias or hatred toward Lebron by not putting him in the top 5. Nor do I think you dislike Kobe if you put him out of the top 10.

But, frankly I find it more reasonable to put Kobe in the top 10 than Lebron in the Top 5.


I think all of that's fair. I probably lean the same directionally re: the bolded ...
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Dreamshake
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:41 pm    Post subject:

The Grind wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
The Grind wrote:
I don't think Kobe would've let a 27/7/5 performance from Wade go to waste, or a 19/7 from Bosh for that matter. Put a prime Kobe on that team and there is no chance in hell he sh*ts out a 17ppg bronze egg ala LBJ.


A prime Kobe on that team doesn't help Miami beat Dallas. They would lose for the exact same reason Kobe lost to them in 2011....no one to handle Dirk and the frontcourt would get outplayed. You aren't winning any titles with Bosh as your interior presence, supported by Haslem and Joel Anthony. And as far as Bosh's 19/7, he shot 41% in that series and couldn't check Dirk.

Sure, Kobe and Wade could score, but ya gotta get stops and rebounds at some point.


I could definitely see him dropping more than 8 points on the swing game (4th game) of the series. If Miami wins that game then they're in the driver's seat. That series was closer than people think. LeBron's refusal to be any semblance of a difference maker was definitely perplexing to me.


Sure, but you still have no bigs to stop Dirk, likely giving up more points and still losing. Kobe couldn't beat that team with a Bynum/Gasol/Odom frontcourt. He isn't gonna do it with the Miami one, even with Bosh.

The team was just built with LeBron acting as a forward. You would have to construct the team completely differently.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:52 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
AshesToAshes wrote:
i guess it's a requirement in having this debate, to ignore the fact that...

lebron colluded with 2 other all-stars in his prime to win his first ring


Since we are talking facts:

col·lu·sion
noun
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others

There was nothing illegal about what the Heatles did and the league is on record noting the same. You can't prevent players from talking to one another and free agents can play wherever they like.


also a fact you can do something "wrong" without breaking the rules/law. and even the definition says "OR illegal" so legality isn't the only factor.

it is a fact LBJ has afforded himself more effective control of his teammates/location. And it should produce better results.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:02 am    Post subject:

Everyone has bias so using that to discredit anyone is meaningless. By more objective measures Lebron has surpassed Kobe.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:58 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
The Grind wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
The Grind wrote:
I don't think Kobe would've let a 27/7/5 performance from Wade go to waste, or a 19/7 from Bosh for that matter. Put a prime Kobe on that team and there is no chance in hell he sh*ts out a 17ppg bronze egg ala LBJ.


A prime Kobe on that team doesn't help Miami beat Dallas. They would lose for the exact same reason Kobe lost to them in 2011....no one to handle Dirk and the frontcourt would get outplayed. You aren't winning any titles with Bosh as your interior presence, supported by Haslem and Joel Anthony. And as far as Bosh's 19/7, he shot 41% in that series and couldn't check Dirk.

Sure, Kobe and Wade could score, but ya gotta get stops and rebounds at some point.


I could definitely see him dropping more than 8 points on the swing game (4th game) of the series. If Miami wins that game then they're in the driver's seat. That series was closer than people think. LeBron's refusal to be any semblance of a difference maker was definitely perplexing to me.


Sure, but you still have no bigs to stop Dirk, likely giving up more points and still losing. Kobe couldn't beat that team with a Bynum/Gasol/Odom frontcourt. He isn't gonna do it with the Miami one, even with Bosh.

The team was just built with LeBron acting as a forward. You would have to construct the team completely differently.


Dirk scored 26 pts on 42%. Good series for his standards, but easily offset by what prime Kobe could give you. Wade was the best player in that series with a blistering 27 on 54%. Had LeBron played anywhere close to his vaunted player card, the Heat would've easily won. He was getting busted up by Jason Terry. Would that happen to a prime Kobe? nope. As for the 2011 Lakers, Pau/Lamar/Bynum were not what they were during the regular season. Hard to win when Pau is putting up 13/9 on 42% with GF issues and Drew is getting himself tossed out because of immature flagrants. None of those guys produced at Wade's or Bosh's rate, during that playoff season.
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