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| Total Votes : 94 |
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2019
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 Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil was playing the hand dealt to him. Not saying he still wouldn't have mortgaged the future for the now but he didn't exactly have many choices but he did get KP who looks to be a future superstar and he gave the Knicks fans a roster full of star names who will give them them something to fawn over. |
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fansincemagic
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Knicks fans have to put their faith into Rose and Noah holding up, Melo growing old gracefully and KP totally dominating to actually do something in a short window. The Lakers have a gaggle of young talented kids with high upside in most cases. Advantage LA.
I don't put much stock into a kudos debate between the FO from each team though, too many variables. It may lead to a few interesting points, but the whole "tank" thing, what each team had to work with, I just don't see the point. |
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J.C. Smith
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| Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Imo they were in completely different situations. The Lakers had no assets, and aging stars taking up cap space. The Knicks had, and then kept Melo. With an aging Melo the Knicks were never really in rebuilding mode, they just stunk. Their moves last summer were definitely not rebuilding moves, they were a team trying to get competitive. And this summer even moreso.
Personally I don't like how they have approached things. They don't have enough to win a title, and aside from Porzingis they don't have much in the way of young assets.
The Lakers tanked because they didn't have much choice in the matter. But as a result of that tanking they know have an exciting young roster, their rebuild was a true rebuild. The Knicks by contrast were a bad team trying to take the fast route back into contention. |
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Gomur
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:08 am Post subject: |
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The East is considerably weaker than the West. Would it be outlandish to think playoffs for our Lakers if we were bracketed there?
However, the Knicks do have the benefit of location, location, location, so the aging team they've assembled does have a chance for playoffs if remaining healthy. Playing out West, we're playing at a higher difficulty setting, and I feel we've still put ourselves in a better position moving forward.
We just have to invest in our youngsters and not make any knee jerk mistakes in trades and contracts. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | cthroatgtr wrote: | | I think Phil has the same problem the Lakers did a few years back, which is try and add some talent before their superstar is done. I think Phil committed to Melo he would do that. Lakers honestly lucked into this. Two years in a row they could have lost their pick and got the #2.p Lakers have drafted well (especially in the 2nd round), the one thing they do right. To say either has done better not really convinced either way. The Lakers FINALLY are committed to the rebuild but probably would have considered Westbrook or Cousins, so they are one flinch away from doing the same thing. |
So did the Warriors luck into drafting Curry, Klay, and Draymond?
What about the Thunder? Did they luck into Durant, Westbrook, and Harden?
They haven't flinched thus far, so, advantage JIMBO. |
I don't understand why you responded to just go tangential to what cthroatgtr wrote.
Curry was drafted #7 in 2009 and Golden State used their own pick.
Golden State used their own pick to draft Ekpe Udoh #6 in 2010.
Klay Thompson was drafted #10 in 2011 and Golden State used their own pick.
Golden State drafted Harrison Barnes #7 in 2012 and they used their own pick. There was gossip that they tanked rather than send out an owed first round pick.
The Ghost of Marcus Williams
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On July 22, 2008, the Warriors acquired Marcus Williams in exchange for a conditional first-round draft pick. In fairness to Chris Mullin, the deal needs some context. Baron Davis had just jumped ship for the Clippers, leaving the Warriors without a true point guard. Williams had been on the All Rookie second team and was available given New Jersey’s depth at 1. The Warriors had won nearly 50 games in the prior season and expected to be in the playoff hunt the next year (this is pre-moped), meaning the conditional pick would likely be in the high teens, not the lottery. That said, a first rounder for an unproven, potentially disruptive player is a gamble (albeit one I favored taking at the time). Williams arrived out of shape, was completely undisciplined on the court and quickly fell out of Don Nelson’s rotation. The Warriors cut him on March 10, 2009 — superficially closing the book on one of Mullin’s worst transactions. And the deal was only going to get worse.
Under the original trade, the first pick that could go to the Nets was the Warriors’ 2011 first rounder, lottery protected. But then in September 2009, the team sent its 2011 second round pick to the Nets to bump the first potential year for the trade back a year to 2012 (with lower lottery restrictions). Because of the NBA’s rule requiring teams to have a first round pick in at least every other draft, the second trade freed the team up to swap its 2010 pick. Had the NJ pick come due in 2011, the 2010 pick could not have been traded. ..
...But the saga of the conditional pick still wasn’t over. Under the new deal, the Warriors are committed to sending the 2012 pick to NJ if it’s not in the top 7. If it is, the 2013 pick comes due, top 6 protected. If that pick doesn’t get moved, the 2014 pick goes, also top 6 protected. If the Warriors don’t ship that pick, then New Jersey gets the Warriors’ second rounders in 2014 and 2016.
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Draymond Green was drafted #35 in 2012.
I don't understand your comparison of luck for Golden State in regards to Curry, Klay and Green since the picks used to draft them weren't at risk of being sent to another team to fulfill a trade obligation.
One of the picks used to draft Ingram and Russell was definitely at risk of being sent to Philadelphia to fulfill a trade obligation if things went against the Lakers in one of the last two lottery drawings.
The above is my understanding of what cthroatgtr meant by the usage of the word luck. |
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J.C. Smith
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| Bard207 wrote: | | One of the picks used to draft Ingram and Russell was definitely at risk of being sent to Philadelphia to fulfill a trade obligation if things went against the Lakers in one of the last two lottery drawings. |
The Lakers were unlucky in three years ago when they dropped down in the draft, but it didn't matter because they still got Randle (who has been better than most of the players taken ahead of him). They got lucky moving up in the draft last year but would have been extremely unlucky had they lost their pick. This season the odds still favored them keeping the pick and they didn't move up or down, they drafted right where they were seeded. I wouldn't consider that getting lucky, I would consider that pretty much as par for the course. |
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Bard207
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | Bard207 wrote: | | One of the picks used to draft Ingram and Russell was definitely at risk of being sent to Philadelphia to fulfill a trade obligation if things went against the Lakers in one of the last two lottery drawings. |
The Lakers were unlucky in three years ago when they dropped down in the draft, but it didn't matter because they still got Randle (who has been better than most of the players taken ahead of him). They got lucky moving up in the draft last year but would have been extremely unlucky had they lost their pick. This season the odds still favored them keeping the pick and they didn't move up or down, they drafted right where they were seeded. I wouldn't consider that getting lucky, I would consider that pretty much as par for the course. |
I reviewed the post of cthroatgtr and found no mention of Randle or a reference to the 2014 Draft.
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cthroatgtr wrote:
I think Phil has the same problem the Lakers did a few years back, which is try and add some talent before their superstar is done. I think Phil committed to Melo he would do that. Lakers honestly lucked into this. Two years in a row they could have lost their pick and got the #2.p Lakers have drafted well (especially in the 2nd round), the one thing they do right. To say either has done better not really convinced either way. The Lakers FINALLY are committed to the rebuild but probably would have considered Westbrook or Cousins, so they are one flinch away from doing the same thing.
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I reviewed my post and didn't find any mention of Randle. The only reference to the 2014 Draft was a quote about the Golden State - Nets trade, so you introduced that into the conversation to have something to cite as an unfavorable for the Lakers.
Ugh. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | Imo they were in completely different situations. The Lakers had no assets, and aging stars taking up cap space. The Knicks had, and then kept Melo. With an aging Melo the Knicks were never really in rebuilding mode, they just stunk. Their moves last summer were definitely not rebuilding moves, they were a team trying to get competitive. And this summer even moreso.
Personally I don't like how they have approached things. They don't have enough to win a title, and aside from Porzingis they don't have much in the way of young assets.
The Lakers tanked because they didn't have much choice in the matter. But as a result of that tanking they know have an exciting young roster, their rebuild was a true rebuild. The Knicks by contrast were a bad team trying to take the fast route back into contention. |
Yup. Hard to compare the two. They had a relatively "close to prime" Melo while the Lakers had a clearly over the hill Kobe for a few years.
Knicks have mortgaged the near future with the exception of Porky. It's going to be sad watching him defer shots to Melo and Rose this year.
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70sdude
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Results suggest it's immaterial who's an inch ahead of the other.
Neither has nudged his team to a .500 record in the past three seasons. Rebuilds usually reek for three or four years, and well, both franchises have been stinking up the place. Who cares who's ahead ? I care more that the Lakers take care of their business. |
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DocK36
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Kinda feel like our rebuild is starting this upcoming season. And NY isn't rebuilding. I'd describe what Phil is doing as retooling. |
Exactly, what NY did is not rebuilding, it's like what we did with an aging Kobe, try to squeeze out a couple of playoff runs before Melo is done.
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governator
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| DocK36 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Kinda feel like our rebuild is starting this upcoming season. And NY isn't rebuilding. I'd describe what Phil is doing as retooling. |
Exactly, what NY did is not rebuilding, it's like what we did with an aging Kobe, try to squeeze out a couple of playoff runs before Melo is done. |
I like Knicks off season signings. They basically lost a borderline starter in R.Lopez and back ups (Calderon and J.Grant) and got D.Rose, Noah, B.Jennings and C.Lee. that's a good gamble, giving chance to Melo last good years |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:11 am Post subject: |
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I think they're sort of where we were when we traded for Nash/Howard.
The only silver lining they have over that team is Porky.
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Darth Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:12 am Post subject: |
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I vote for neither... But if I had to vote, I am voting AGAINST Jim.
He hasn't rebuilt crap. He tore this organization to shreds of paper due to his incompetence.
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governator
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | I think they're sort of where we were when we traded for Nash/Howard.
The only silver lining they have over that team is Porky. |
And a healthy Melo... imagine if the achilles never tear, can we reload once again with Dwight and Nash off the book but Pau returning... sigh
Well, the young guns are a great consolation price |
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Vin
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Knicks aren't going anywhere really. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Darth Los Angeles wrote: | I vote for neither... But if I had to vote, I am voting AGAINST Jim.
He hasn't rebuilt crap. He tore this organization to shreds of paper due to his incompetence. |
He's REBUILDING it. Post Kobe, this is year #1 of a true rebuild.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | I think they're sort of where we were when we traded for Nash/Howard.
The only silver lining they have over that team is Porky. |
And a healthy Melo... imagine if the achilles never tear, can we reload once again with Dwight and Nash off the book but Pau returning... sigh
Well, the young guns are a great consolation price |
The real problem will be if the Knicks re-sign Rose next year. If not, then they have a good chance to get a high level FA.
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KBH
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| The Knicks have a team that would have been very good four years ago. We have a team that will likely be good in four years. Give me the latter. |
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Laker_Town
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Too early to tell, but based on them probably making the playoffs in the east, and them having bigger names, I can see why people would vote Knicks |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | The Knicks have a team that would have been very good four years ago. We have a team that will likely be good in four years. Give me the latter. |
Yeah. It's about perspective.
"Win now" is the Knicks.
"Win later" is def geared more towards the Lakers.
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Vin
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | The Knicks have a team that would have been very good four years ago. We have a team that will likely be good in four years. Give me the latter. |
Yeah. It's about perspective.
"Win now" is the Knicks.
"Win later" is def geared more towards the Lakers. |
The thing is that they aren't winning now though. If healthy their ceiling is a 2nd round exit. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: |
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I can't imagine anyone looking at both rosters, thinking about the next 5-8 years, and preferring the Knicks'.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | I can't imagine anyone looking at both rosters, thinking about the next 5-8 years, and preferring the Knicks'. |
Assuming DLo/Porky are a wash, we have such a nice stable of young players while the Knicks, sort of like what we had to do with Kobe (b/c Melo has a no trade clause) will have to wait until he's done to truly rebuild.
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Lakers_Jester
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Jim is building something that can last, while phil has built something that may not last half a season with the injury proneness of the team. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | I can't imagine anyone looking at both rosters, thinking about the next 5-8 years, and preferring the Knicks'. |
Assuming DLo/Porky are a wash, we have such a nice stable of young players while the Knicks, sort of like what we had to do with Kobe (b/c Melo has a no trade clause) will have to wait until he's done to truly rebuild. |
You could argue they have 1 prospect/trade piece while we have 6-7. That alone would tilt the scales towards the Lakers. I actually really like some of the moves NY made, particularly the Jennings and Lee deals. I do not understand why someone would want to get into the Derrick Rose business. If he plays well next year you have to sign him long term deal. Now you're stuck with Derrick Rose. If he leaves, why the hell did you trade for him? A lot of it also comes back to that crippling Melo deal and the decision to give him a NTC. I think they're team is a bit of a mishmash, but they'll likely return to the playoffs and that'll be enough for some people. Outside of Porzingis I'm not seeing a bright future there, and this influx of vet talent will take them out of lottery position to get any new top prospects. But by then Phil will probably finish out his contract and leave. It'll be someone else's problem to fix, just like it always is with the Knicks.
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