Who is doing a better job at rebuilding. Phil Jackson? or Jim Buss?
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Who rebuilt better.
Phil
20%
 20%  [ 19 ]
Jim
79%
 79%  [ 75 ]
Total Votes : 94

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Gomur
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:25 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Darth Los Angeles wrote:
I vote for neither... But if I had to vote, I am voting AGAINST Jim.

He hasn't rebuilt crap. He tore this organization to shreds of paper due to his incompetence.


He's REBUILDING it. Post Kobe, this is year #1 of a true rebuild.


We're entering a whole new era with the team post-Kobe. I'm not one of those Lakers fans holding him to a self-sanctioned deadline. It's been a strange balancing act these past few seasons, while keeping Kobe and acquiring the future.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:26 am    Post subject:

NY didn't rebuild, they reloaded with a lot of question marks and have just one real young asset. Of course at this point Porzingis should be considered a better asset than anything we have, but with young players you never know how they will develop and Dlo made some serious progress from last year summer league to this and by the end of their rookie deals we may have the best player of that draft. I love our two picks from this year and Julius, Nance and JC are all legit NBA players too.

In two years we may have 6 players from this group playing on a high level while NY may have one and he may not be the best of the crop anymore.


Last edited by nash on Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:24 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:16 am    Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:
Batguano wrote:
cthroatgtr wrote:
I think Phil has the same problem the Lakers did a few years back, which is try and add some talent before their superstar is done. I think Phil committed to Melo he would do that. Lakers honestly lucked into this. Two years in a row they could have lost their pick and got the #2.p Lakers have drafted well (especially in the 2nd round), the one thing they do right. To say either has done better not really convinced either way. The Lakers FINALLY are committed to the rebuild but probably would have considered Westbrook or Cousins, so they are one flinch away from doing the same thing.


So did the Warriors luck into drafting Curry, Klay, and Draymond?

What about the Thunder? Did they luck into Durant, Westbrook, and Harden?

They haven't flinched thus far, so, advantage JIMBO.



I don't understand why you responded to just go tangential to what cthroatgtr wrote.


Curry was drafted #7 in 2009 and Golden State used their own pick.

Golden State used their own pick to draft Ekpe Udoh #6 in 2010.

Klay Thompson was drafted #10 in 2011 and Golden State used their own pick.

Golden State drafted Harrison Barnes #7 in 2012 and they used their own pick. There was gossip that they tanked rather than send out an owed first round pick.

The Ghost of Marcus Williams

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On July 22, 2008, the Warriors acquired Marcus Williams in exchange for a conditional first-round draft pick. In fairness to Chris Mullin, the deal needs some context. Baron Davis had just jumped ship for the Clippers, leaving the Warriors without a true point guard. Williams had been on the All Rookie second team and was available given New Jersey’s depth at 1. The Warriors had won nearly 50 games in the prior season and expected to be in the playoff hunt the next year (this is pre-moped), meaning the conditional pick would likely be in the high teens, not the lottery. That said, a first rounder for an unproven, potentially disruptive player is a gamble (albeit one I favored taking at the time). Williams arrived out of shape, was completely undisciplined on the court and quickly fell out of Don Nelson’s rotation. The Warriors cut him on March 10, 2009 — superficially closing the book on one of Mullin’s worst transactions. And the deal was only going to get worse.

Under the original trade, the first pick that could go to the Nets was the Warriors’ 2011 first rounder, lottery protected. But then in September 2009, the team sent its 2011 second round pick to the Nets to bump the first potential year for the trade back a year to 2012 (with lower lottery restrictions). Because of the NBA’s rule requiring teams to have a first round pick in at least every other draft, the second trade freed the team up to swap its 2010 pick. Had the NJ pick come due in 2011, the 2010 pick could not have been traded. ..

...But the saga of the conditional pick still wasn’t over. Under the new deal, the Warriors are committed to sending the 2012 pick to NJ if it’s not in the top 7. If it is, the 2013 pick comes due, top 6 protected. If that pick doesn’t get moved, the 2014 pick goes, also top 6 protected. If the Warriors don’t ship that pick, then New Jersey gets the Warriors’ second rounders in 2014 and 2016.



Draymond Green was drafted #35 in 2012.



I don't understand your comparison of luck for Golden State in regards to Curry, Klay and Green since the picks used to draft them weren't at risk of being sent to another team to fulfill a trade obligation.

One of the picks used to draft Ingram and Russell was definitely at risk of being sent to Philadelphia to fulfill a trade obligation if things went against the Lakers in one of the last two lottery drawings.


The above is my understanding of what cthroatgtr meant by the usage of the word luck.


LMAO Wut? The lakers used their own picks as well. You're post makes no sense. Who cares if they're protected picks the lakers get even more credit for putting the protection on them unlike the knicks
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:28 am    Post subject:

This isn't even a question worth Asking as Phil has quickly put together a team capable of competing in the East.
Rose + Lee + Melo + Porzingis + Noah + 6th = Jennings
That team can easily win 40+ games in the eastern conference and will make a deep playoff run.

The Lakers however are building from scratch with youth through the draft. I don't expect them to make any significant noise unless they make a major trade for a superstar which probably won't happen until after we show we have some players on the team.

Phil has done a Far Better Job than Jim and it should be understandable as to why; Phill has 11 Championships to his credit and players want to play for him, NY is a big market team and has Superstar Players that are well liked...
Jim on the other hand; well his Dad was a great dude when he and Jerry West ran things on for the Lakers... THE END!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:30 am    Post subject:

lakurluv wrote:
This isn't even a question worth Asking as Phil has quickly put together a team capable of competing in the East.
Rose + Lee + Melo + Porzingis + Noah + 6th = Jennings
That team can easily win 40+ games in the eastern conference and will make a deep playoff run.

The Lakers however are building from scratch with youth through the draft. I don't expect them to make any significant noise unless they make a major trade for a superstar which probably won't happen until after we show we have some players on the team.

Phil has done a Far Better Job than Jim and it should be understandable as to why; Phill has 11 Championships to his credit and players want to play for him, NY is a big market team and has Superstar Players that are well liked...
Jim on the other hand; well his Dad was a great dude when he and Jerry West ran things on for the Lakers... THE END!


Some questions, assuming Phil/Jim Buss switched places:

1. what would Phil have done with Kobe?
2. with the #2 pick, would he have picked DLO?
3. would our head coach have been Fisher, then Rambis?

I don't like to compare the franchises as they are in different stages of birth/death. Lakers are winning in terms of 7 year window IMO; Knicks are going to be better IMO for the next 2 years or so.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:41 am    Post subject:

Even that is questionable. They have a couple of serious crap shoots in their starting lineup.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:43 am    Post subject:

I think Knicks have an interesting lineup that has a shelf life of about 2 years top. Now, if they sign a better FA in 2017 instead of Rose, different story. But if they retain Rose (and Jennings is a 1 year rental), then you basically have a team that is on the treadmill as a 5-8th seed at best for the next 2-3 years in the East. is that a "success" for Phil, who probably won't stick around for 5-7 years anyways.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:47 am    Post subject:

Knicks team is terrible, but in the East, that can still get you far in the playoffs.

However, we haven't done great or anything significant except draft well the last 2 seasons. The lottery helped us a ton by giving us 2 #2 picks, which were easy choices outside of Oak vs Russ debate.

Until, we do anything, the answer is neither.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:


I don't like to compare the franchises as they are in different stages of birth/death. Lakers are winning in terms of 7 year window IMO; Knicks are going to be better IMO for the next 2 years or so.


The Knicks should definitely be better the next 2 years.

One way I look at it is that both franchises signed past-prime franchise guys to somewhat crippling contracts (Melo/Kobe). Kobe's is finished, Melo has 2 more seasons (and a possible 3rd). During the course of being hamstrung by the Kobe deal, the Lakers at least have Russell, Randle, Clarkson, Nance, Ingram, and Zubac to show for it. The Knicks have Porzingis.

Neither teams have contended, but one of them picked up major assets along the way while the other didn't.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:54 am    Post subject:

NYCLaker wrote:
Knicks team is terrible, but in the East, that can still get you far in the playoffs.

However, we haven't done great or anything significant except draft well the last 2 seasons. The lottery helped us a ton by giving us 2 #2 picks, which were easy choices outside of Oak vs Russ debate.

Until, we do anything, the answer is neither.


Knicks snapshot from 2010 (after Lakers last championship):

2010: 42-40
2011: 36-30
2012: 54-28
2013: 37-45
2014: 17-65
2015: 32-50


since Phil: 49-115

Lakers:

2010: 57-25
2011: 41-25
2012: 45-37
2013: 27-55
2014: 21-61
2015: 17-65


same time period: 38-126
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:56 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
NYCLaker wrote:
Knicks team is terrible, but in the East, that can still get you far in the playoffs.

However, we haven't done great or anything significant except draft well the last 2 seasons. The lottery helped us a ton by giving us 2 #2 picks, which were easy choices outside of Oak vs Russ debate.

Until, we do anything, the answer is neither.


Knicks snapshot from 2010 (after Lakers last championship):

2010: 42-40
2011: 36-30
2012: 54-28
2013: 37-45
2014: 17-65
2015: 32-50


since Phil: 49-115

Lakers:

2010: 57-25
2011: 41-25
2012: 45-37
2013: 27-55
2014: 21-61
2015: 17-65


same time period: 38-126


What does that even mean?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:15 am    Post subject:

NYCLaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
NYCLaker wrote:
Knicks team is terrible, but in the East, that can still get you far in the playoffs.

However, we haven't done great or anything significant except draft well the last 2 seasons. The lottery helped us a ton by giving us 2 #2 picks, which were easy choices outside of Oak vs Russ debate.

Until, we do anything, the answer is neither.


Knicks snapshot from 2010 (after Lakers last championship):

2010: 42-40
2011: 36-30
2012: 54-28
2013: 37-45
2014: 17-65
2015: 32-50


since Phil: 49-115

Lakers:

2010: 57-25
2011: 41-25
2012: 45-37
2013: 27-55
2014: 21-61
2015: 17-65


same time period: 38-126


What does that even mean?


You really need an explanation (which is given)?

Phil has been the Pres. of Basketball Ops for 2 years. Just showing the record for those 2 years, and giving more context over a period since 2010.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:16 am    Post subject:

nash wrote:
NY didn't rebuild, they reloaded with a lot of question marks and have just one real young asset. Of course at this point Porzingis should be considered a better asset than anything we have, but with young players you never know how they will develop and Dlo made some serious progress from last year summer league to this and by the end of their rookie deals we may have the best player of that draft and I still love our two picks from this year and Julius, Nance and JC are all legit NBA players.

In two years we may have 6 players from this group playing on a high level while NY may have one and he may not be the best of the crop anymore.


Slow your row He's not better than DLO and there's still NY fans that would love to have Russell
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
NYCLaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
NYCLaker wrote:
Knicks team is terrible, but in the East, that can still get you far in the playoffs.

However, we haven't done great or anything significant except draft well the last 2 seasons. The lottery helped us a ton by giving us 2 #2 picks, which were easy choices outside of Oak vs Russ debate.

Until, we do anything, the answer is neither.


Knicks snapshot from 2010 (after Lakers last championship):

2010: 42-40
2011: 36-30
2012: 54-28
2013: 37-45
2014: 17-65
2015: 32-50


since Phil: 49-115

Lakers:

2010: 57-25
2011: 41-25
2012: 45-37
2013: 27-55
2014: 21-61
2015: 17-65


same time period: 38-126


What does that even mean?


You really need an explanation (which is given)?

Phil has been the Pres. of Basketball Ops for 2 years. Just showing the record for those 2 years, and giving more context over a period since 2010.


Yea, both teams sucked and? I don't get it...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:23 am    Post subject:

lakurluv wrote:
This isn't even a question worth Asking as Phil has quickly put together a team capable of competing in the East.
Rose + Lee + Melo + Porzingis + Noah + 6th = Jennings
That team can easily win 40+ games in the eastern conference and will make a deep playoff run.

The Lakers however are building from scratch with youth through the draft. I don't expect them to make any significant noise unless they make a major trade for a superstar which probably won't happen until after we show we have some players on the team.

Phil has done a Far Better Job than Jim and it should be understandable as to why; Phill has 11 Championships to his credit and players want to play for him, NY is a big market team and has Superstar Players that are well liked...
Jim on the other hand; well his Dad was a great dude when he and Jerry West ran things on for the Lakers... THE END!


What stars did phil sign?? Lol
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:24 am    Post subject:

NYCLaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
NYCLaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
NYCLaker wrote:
Knicks team is terrible, but in the East, that can still get you far in the playoffs.

However, we haven't done great or anything significant except draft well the last 2 seasons. The lottery helped us a ton by giving us 2 #2 picks, which were easy choices outside of Oak vs Russ debate.

Until, we do anything, the answer is neither.


Knicks snapshot from 2010 (after Lakers last championship):

2010: 42-40
2011: 36-30
2012: 54-28
2013: 37-45
2014: 17-65
2015: 32-50


since Phil: 49-115

Lakers:

2010: 57-25
2011: 41-25
2012: 45-37
2013: 27-55
2014: 21-61
2015: 17-65


same time period: 38-126


What does that even mean?


You really need an explanation (which is given)?

Phil has been the Pres. of Basketball Ops for 2 years. Just showing the record for those 2 years, and giving more context over a period since 2010.


Yea, both teams sucked and? I don't get it...


Well that's sort of the point.

And going forward, Lakers/Knicks have different long term goals. Phil wants to "win now," though that team isn't winning a championship.

lakers are rebuilding and IMO looking more like 2018 is the goal to make the playoffs (realistically).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
nash wrote:
NY didn't rebuild, they reloaded with a lot of question marks and have just one real young asset. Of course at this point Porzingis should be considered a better asset than anything we have, but with young players you never know how they will develop and Dlo made some serious progress from last year summer league to this and by the end of their rookie deals we may have the best player of that draft and I still love our two picks from this year and Julius, Nance and JC are all legit NBA players.

In two years we may have 6 players from this group playing on a high level while NY may have one and he may not be the best of the crop anymore.


Slow your row He's not better than DLO and there's still NY fans that would love to have Russell


Yep. Porzingis got off to a good start and got people excited. He leveled out after that, but a lot of people just remember the initial wave of hype. He really didn't have that great of a year: 14/7/2 with a mediocre shooting percentage. Not bad for a rookie, but the idea that he is on a superstar trajectory is premature. He was more NBA-ready than Russell, but that was expected. His rookie season may be a lot closer to his ceiling than Russell's rookie season.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject:

nash wrote:
NY didn't rebuild, they reloaded with a lot of question marks and have just one real young asset. Of course at this point Porzingis should be considered a better asset than anything we have, but with young players you never know how they will develop and Dlo made some serious progress from last year summer league to this and by the end of their rookie deals we may have the best player of that draft. I love our two picks from this year and Julius, Nance and JC are all legit NBA players too.

In two years we may have 6 players from this group playing on a high level while NY may have one and he may not be the best of the crop anymore.


No offense but this isn't even remotely true.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Car54 wrote:
nash wrote:
NY didn't rebuild, they reloaded with a lot of question marks and have just one real young asset. Of course at this point Porzingis should be considered a better asset than anything we have, but with young players you never know how they will develop and Dlo made some serious progress from last year summer league to this and by the end of their rookie deals we may have the best player of that draft and I still love our two picks from this year and Julius, Nance and JC are all legit NBA players.

In two years we may have 6 players from this group playing on a high level while NY may have one and he may not be the best of the crop anymore.


Slow your row He's not better than DLO and there's still NY fans that would love to have Russell


Yep. Porzingis got off to a good start and got people excited. He leveled out after that, but a lot of people just remember the initial wave of hype. He really didn't have that great of a year: 14/7/2 with a mediocre shooting percentage. Not bad for a rookie, but the idea that he is on a superstar trajectory is premature. He was more NBA-ready than Russell, but that was expected. His rookie season may be a lot closer to his ceiling than Russell's rookie season.


It's the immense NY hype that propelled him to mythical proportions IMO. He had a good rookie year, but nothing that was amazing compared to other great rookie years.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject:

By default it has to be Jim since Phil has never rebuilt a team.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:03 pm    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
nash wrote:
NY didn't rebuild, they reloaded with a lot of question marks and have just one real young asset. Of course at this point Porzingis should be considered a better asset than anything we have, but with young players you never know how they will develop and Dlo made some serious progress from last year summer league to this and by the end of their rookie deals we may have the best player of that draft. I love our two picks from this year and Julius, Nance and JC are all legit NBA players too.

In two years we may have 6 players from this group playing on a high level while NY may have one and he may not be the best of the crop anymore.


No offense but this isn't even remotely true.


I consider Russ >Poz> everyone else.

With ingram/zubac as questions marks for now.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:07 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
NYCLaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
NYCLaker wrote:
Knicks team is terrible, but in the East, that can still get you far in the playoffs.

However, we haven't done great or anything significant except draft well the last 2 seasons. The lottery helped us a ton by giving us 2 #2 picks, which were easy choices outside of Oak vs Russ debate.

Until, we do anything, the answer is neither.


Knicks snapshot from 2010 (after Lakers last championship):

2010: 42-40
2011: 36-30
2012: 54-28
2013: 37-45
2014: 17-65
2015: 32-50


since Phil: 49-115

Lakers:

2010: 57-25
2011: 41-25
2012: 45-37
2013: 27-55
2014: 21-61
2015: 17-65


same time period: 38-126


What does that even mean?


You really need an explanation (which is given)?

Phil has been the Pres. of Basketball Ops for 2 years. Just showing the record for those 2 years, and giving more context over a period since 2010.


False equivalency.
Jim has been running B-ball operations for the Lakers for at least 1 more season than Phil has been in NY. So that 27-55 record should be factored into Jim's record. Or you shouldn't count Phil's first season running things as well. One or the other.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:13 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
False equivalency.
Jim has been running B-ball operations for the Lakers for at least 1 more season than Phil has been in NY. So that 27-55 record should be factored into Jim's record. Or you shouldn't count Phil's first season running things as well. One or the other.


It's not false equivalency. I'm just showing the numbers that show a bigger picture. We're coming from a position of a championship to playoff team to Kobe injury to tank years.

Look at the Knicks 6 year forecast and with the exception of 1 good (not great) season, it's been treadmill (at best city).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:35 pm    Post subject:

Too soon to tell, but I give it to Jim thus far. We are actually rebuilding properly through the draft over the last 3 years. While, Phil is going after free agents (granted they didn't have a first round this year)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:13 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
False equivalency.
Jim has been running B-ball operations for the Lakers for at least 1 more season than Phil has been in NY. So that 27-55 record should be factored into Jim's record. Or you shouldn't count Phil's first season running things as well. One or the other.


It's not false equivalency. I'm just showing the numbers that show a bigger picture. We're coming from a position of a championship to playoff team to Kobe injury to tank years.

Look at the Knicks 6 year forecast and with the exception of 1 good (not great) season, it's been treadmill (at best city).


My bad. Thought u were implying the bolded records were Jim's tenure va Phil's tenure. Since that's what the OP was asking about.
But that's not the case. You're comparing NYK vs LAL. Not Phil vs Jim.
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