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cmonkee
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 Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| cmonkee wrote: | <any guesses on reasonable expectations for the Lakers to run motion weak competently?>
| GoldenThroat wrote: |
Hmmm...all things considered, with a new coaching staff & young players I'd say January, maybe? With continued growth after that, of course. |
| DancingBarry wrote: | | Of all the sets Luke will run, they probably have the most experience in this one with the end of last season and summer league. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they came out of preseason with some counters already in their tool chest on this play. Scott didn't teach counters, just initial basics on everything. In the summer league, I think we saw them at least starting to "think" about counters after getting overplayed. That's a positive sign. Plus, with Luke's triangle experience, he knows you have to have the pressure release options ... Or you don't really have an offense. So combine that with his emphasis on the fundamentals and I've got to think they develop competency with this set fairly quickly. |
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fiendishoc
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | Cool, thanks - sounds like it was mainly coaching. How long did it take the Warriors (after dumping Jackson and hiring Kerr) to properly implement motion weak + counters? |
I don't know, honestly. I wasn't following them close enough to know at the time, and wasn't as well versed in Motion Weak at the time either. |
No worries - I think the root of my question was getting at is what reasonable expectations should be for the Lakers to run motion weak competently... any guesses? |
Of all the sets Luke will run, they probably have the most experience in this one with the end of last season and summer league. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they came out of preseason with some counters already in their tool chest on this play. Scott didn't teach counters, just initial basics on everything. In the summer league, I think we saw them at least starting to "think" about counters after getting overplayed. That's a positive sign. Plus, with Luke's triangle experience, he knows you have to have the pressure release options ... Or you don't really have an offense. So combine that with his emphasis on the fundamentals and I've got to think they develop competency with this set fairly quickly. |
Backcuts on overplays were an automatic in Kerr's system no matter what action / set that they were running. I anticipate them to get that habit quickly. The Warriors only ran a little Motion Weak though so if Luke stays true to their offense I don't think they will go too deep into the different variations of it. I think most of the counters will be ones common to their other actions.
From GT's clips it also seems like it will take some time to work out some of the bad habits developed under Byron's regime. |
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ainsley
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| I feel like I learn something new with every video. Amazing job! |
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KBH
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | Cool, thanks - sounds like it was mainly coaching. How long did it take the Warriors (after dumping Jackson and hiring Kerr) to properly implement motion weak + counters? |
I don't know, honestly. I wasn't following them close enough to know at the time, and wasn't as well versed in Motion Weak at the time either. |
No worries - I think the root of my question was getting at is what reasonable expectations should be for the Lakers to run motion weak competently... any guesses? |
Hmmm...all things considered, with a new coaching staff & young players I'd say January, maybe? With continued growth after that, of course. |
I'd take that. January was about when I expected to see the team turn a real corner and end the season strong. We'll be entering the easier half of our schedule at that time, too, which will be helpful. |
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22
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| ainsley wrote: | | I feel like I learn something new with every video. Amazing job! |
I know I definitely do!
From my arm chair psychology position, it looks like everybody has no confidence in the set as they're running it under Byron. They're literally going through the motions IMO
This coaching staff is going to invigorate everybody! |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | ainsley wrote: | | I feel like I learn something new with every video. Amazing job! |
I know I definitely do!
From my arm chair psychology position, it looks like everybody has no confidence in the set as they're running it under Byron. They're literally going through the motions IMO
This coaching staff is going to invigorate everybody! |
This is definitely a huge part of it. It's kind of a chicken or the egg thing though. Does the offense not work because the players are going through the motions, or are they going through the motions because the offense doesn't work?
DB nailed it with this statement.
| DancingBarry wrote: | | you have to have the pressure release options ... Or you don't really have an offense |
Pressure release options and counters are the same thing. If the Lakers had counters, the offense would create more open looks, and if they offense created more open looks, the Lakers would score more often, and if the Lakers scored more often, they'd be invigorated to continue getting better at the offense.
This is pretty much what we saw in Golden State. Those guys didn't have the same swag and didn't play with the same energy under Mark Jackson that they do under Kerr. |
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22
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Very well said!
Since the guys are so young, I tend to think it was the archaic offense that did them in at first. They were all really enthusiastic to start the season. We started off the year with a much worse offense without even the initial actions of motion weak. By the time we implemented this I think the youngins had lost confidence in Byron + the toxic environment.
Now they just have to unlearn all of their bad habits and we'll be in good shape |
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bonkers
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44TheLogo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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The example used where Russell extends too high and thus is unable to get a passing angle to a wide open Zubac just goes to show how even the smallest mistakes in decision making and execution can flow through to good opportunities on offense being denied. Everyone used to mock kobe for his interviews where he'd be talking about "execution" all the time, but it really is always down to execution.
There are very few surprises in the NBA - what team doesn't run motion weak? It's about doing what you're supposed to do, and then responding when the defense adjusts to disrupt what you are supposed to do. Reactions to reactions to reactions. With Byron, we weren't even doing what we were supposed to do in the first place, let alone forcing the defense into any adjustments.
I frankly doubt that Byron even understood why motion weak was a good set, and thus was unable to communicate to the players the importance of executing each step of the set, which leads to the players running the set as though they're mindlessly going through the motions.
As always, great vid GT |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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This is awesome, thanks! |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| 44TheLogo wrote: | The example used where Russell extends too high and thus is unable to get a passing angle to a wide open Zubac just goes to show how even the smallest mistakes in decision making and execution can flow through to good opportunities on offense being denied. Everyone used to mock kobe for his interviews where he'd be talking about "execution" all the time, but it really is always down to execution.
There are very few surprises in the NBA - what team doesn't run motion weak? It's about doing what you're supposed to do, and then responding when the defense adjusts to disrupt what you are supposed to do. Reactions to reactions to reactions. With Byron, we weren't even doing what we were supposed to do in the first place, let alone forcing the defense into any adjustments.
I frankly doubt that Byron even understood why motion weak was a good set, and thus was unable to communicate to the players the importance of executing each step of the set, which leads to the players running the set as though they're mindlessly going through the motions.
As always, great vid GT |
Preach it, man. Nail on the head. |
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tox
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | Cool, thanks - sounds like it was mainly coaching. How long did it take the Warriors (after dumping Jackson and hiring Kerr) to properly implement motion weak + counters? |
I don't know, honestly. I wasn't following them close enough to know at the time, and wasn't as well versed in Motion Weak at the time either. |
No worries - I think the root of my question was getting at is what reasonable expectations should be for the Lakers to run motion weak competently... any guesses? |
Of all the sets Luke will run, they probably have the most experience in this one with the end of last season and summer league. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they came out of preseason with some counters already in their tool chest on this play. Scott didn't teach counters, just initial basics on everything. In the summer league, I think we saw them at least starting to "think" about counters after getting overplayed. That's a positive sign. Plus, with Luke's triangle experience, he knows you have to have the pressure release options ... Or you don't really have an offense. So combine that with his emphasis on the fundamentals and I've got to think they develop competency with this set fairly quickly. |
Backcuts on overplays were an automatic in Kerr's system no matter what action / set that they were running. I anticipate them to get that habit quickly. The Warriors only ran a little Motion Weak though so if Luke stays true to their offense I don't think they will go too deep into the different variations of it. I think most of the counters will be ones common to their other actions.
From GT's clips it also seems like it will take some time to work out some of the bad habits developed under Byron's regime. |
What are some of these bad habits? I remember discussion about the lack of counters and how the subsequent pass back to the guard ended up being way too high.
Are there any other bad habits to note? |
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22
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | Cool, thanks - sounds like it was mainly coaching. How long did it take the Warriors (after dumping Jackson and hiring Kerr) to properly implement motion weak + counters? |
I don't know, honestly. I wasn't following them close enough to know at the time, and wasn't as well versed in Motion Weak at the time either. |
No worries - I think the root of my question was getting at is what reasonable expectations should be for the Lakers to run motion weak competently... any guesses? |
Of all the sets Luke will run, they probably have the most experience in this one with the end of last season and summer league. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they came out of preseason with some counters already in their tool chest on this play. Scott didn't teach counters, just initial basics on everything. In the summer league, I think we saw them at least starting to "think" about counters after getting overplayed. That's a positive sign. Plus, with Luke's triangle experience, he knows you have to have the pressure release options ... Or you don't really have an offense. So combine that with his emphasis on the fundamentals and I've got to think they develop competency with this set fairly quickly. |
Backcuts on overplays were an automatic in Kerr's system no matter what action / set that they were running. I anticipate them to get that habit quickly. The Warriors only ran a little Motion Weak though so if Luke stays true to their offense I don't think they will go too deep into the different variations of it. I think most of the counters will be ones common to their other actions.
From GT's clips it also seems like it will take some time to work out some of the bad habits developed under Byron's regime. |
What are some of these bad habits? I remember discussion about the lack of counters and how the subsequent pass back to the guard ended up being way too high.
Are there any other bad habits to note? |
Not screening properly
Going the wrong way around screens
Not cutting hard because they know the ball will never get to them
Waiting for the screen to develop before using the dribble |
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tox
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | tox wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: |
From GT's clips it also seems like it will take some time to work out some of the bad habits developed under Byron's regime. |
What are some of these bad habits? I remember discussion about the lack of counters and how the subsequent pass back to the guard ended up being way too high.
Are there any other bad habits to note? |
Not screening properly
Going the wrong way around screens
Not cutting hard because they know the ball will never get to them
Waiting for the screen to develop before using the dribble |
Word. From the post, I thought he meant Motion Weak bad habits specifically (like Russell catching the ball up too high) but you're right that he could have meant habits in a general sense. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | tox wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: |
From GT's clips it also seems like it will take some time to work out some of the bad habits developed under Byron's regime. |
What are some of these bad habits? I remember discussion about the lack of counters and how the subsequent pass back to the guard ended up being way too high.
Are there any other bad habits to note? |
Not screening properly
Going the wrong way around screens
Not cutting hard because they know the ball will never get to them
Waiting for the screen to develop before using the dribble |
Word. From the post, I thought he meant Motion Weak bad habits specifically (like Russell catching the ball up too high) but you're right that he could have meant habits in a general sense. |
In a nutshell, being conditioned into thinking that going the actions on the playbook equates running to running the play correctly. (Something went wrong? Must not have been playing hard enough!) |
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fiendishoc
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22
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | tox wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | tox wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: |
From GT's clips it also seems like it will take some time to work out some of the bad habits developed under Byron's regime. |
What are some of these bad habits? I remember discussion about the lack of counters and how the subsequent pass back to the guard ended up being way too high.
Are there any other bad habits to note? |
Not screening properly
Going the wrong way around screens
Not cutting hard because they know the ball will never get to them
Waiting for the screen to develop before using the dribble |
Word. From the post, I thought he meant Motion Weak bad habits specifically (like Russell catching the ball up too high) but you're right that he could have meant habits in a general sense. |
In a nutshell, being conditioned into thinking that going the actions on the playbook equates running to running the play correctly. (Something went wrong? Must not have been playing hard enough!) |
Agreed fellas. Under Byron, I'm certain the players had little clue WHY they were doing certain actions. Understanding the why is critical to being able to truly read and react to what the defense gives you |
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GoldenThroat
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | tox wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | cmonkee wrote: | | Cool, thanks - sounds like it was mainly coaching. How long did it take the Warriors (after dumping Jackson and hiring Kerr) to properly implement motion weak + counters? |
I don't know, honestly. I wasn't following them close enough to know at the time, and wasn't as well versed in Motion Weak at the time either. |
No worries - I think the root of my question was getting at is what reasonable expectations should be for the Lakers to run motion weak competently... any guesses? |
Of all the sets Luke will run, they probably have the most experience in this one with the end of last season and summer league. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they came out of preseason with some counters already in their tool chest on this play. Scott didn't teach counters, just initial basics on everything. In the summer league, I think we saw them at least starting to "think" about counters after getting overplayed. That's a positive sign. Plus, with Luke's triangle experience, he knows you have to have the pressure release options ... Or you don't really have an offense. So combine that with his emphasis on the fundamentals and I've got to think they develop competency with this set fairly quickly. |
Backcuts on overplays were an automatic in Kerr's system no matter what action / set that they were running. I anticipate them to get that habit quickly. The Warriors only ran a little Motion Weak though so if Luke stays true to their offense I don't think they will go too deep into the different variations of it. I think most of the counters will be ones common to their other actions.
From GT's clips it also seems like it will take some time to work out some of the bad habits developed under Byron's regime. |
What are some of these bad habits? I remember discussion about the lack of counters and how the subsequent pass back to the guard ended up being way too high.
Are there any other bad habits to note? |
Not screening properly
Going the wrong way around screens
Not cutting hard because they know the ball will never get to them
Waiting for the screen to develop before using the dribble |
This is a good summary, yeah. Even well-conceived offense won't work if you don't do these things. I'd add quick, decisive ball movement to this list as well. |
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Jello's Jigglin'
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| If I were Luke, I'd light a fire under Randle's ass. If he can't set solid screens and cut with authority, he doesn't see the floor. He has GOT to earn it with his execution and ridding himself of the bad habits. This, to me, is his most important growth issue (even more than the jumper) because it can be overcome with effort/desire and a little coaching. Jumper could take the entire season or longer. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Jello's Jigglin' wrote: | | If I were Luke, I'd light a fire under Randle's ass. If he can't set solid screens and cut with authority, he doesn't see the floor. He has GOT to earn it with his execution and ridding himself of the bad habits. This, to me, is his most important growth issue (even more than the jumper) because it can be overcome with effort/desire and a little coaching. Jumper could take the entire season or longer. |
Agreed. No excuse for the poor screen setting.
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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Judah
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Right, because lighting a fire under guys' rear ends always worked so well for Byron, didn't it? 95% of Byron's coaching centered around that kind of method after losses, and they still got demolished by 30.
Poor screening wasn't exclusive to Randle among Laker bigs last season. For some odd reason, the lack of contact on screens was a routine issue for all of the bigs. Randle doesn't need to be threatened. He needs to be taught. By now it's been well documented how much Luke's coaching philosophy has been shaped by Tex and Phil, namely their continued emphasis on the fundamentals and constantly having their players complete drills centered around them in every practice. I still remember when Kobe did the Skills Challenge that one year during AS weekend and he sort of breezed through the passing part of it and the commentators were saying it's because Tex made them do similar drills in practice all the time, so it felt routine for him.
With that being the case, and the way Luke can't seem to get through one interview without mentioning the importance of teaching his players to "learn to love the details of the game" I expect things like proper screening to be cleaned up in Randle's game, as well as other areas. There's ways to teach players and get your point across without having to walk around with a machete all the time.
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