[espn] When did everything fall apart? [no mention of veto, yet very heated]
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SuperboyReformed
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:40 am    Post subject: [espn] When did everything fall apart? [no mention of veto, yet very heated]

http://www.espn.com/nba/
it's on the page, a video, couldn't find a better link.

A very heated argument when exactly the lakers "fell apart".
the argument has two sides apparently...

kobe's contract ruined the lakers
vs.
jim buss is lame

no mention of a veto.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:44 am    Post subject:

Stephen A Smith has some nerve trying to turn a discussion about Kobe to instantly just go into his same old diatribe about hating Jim Buss.

If anyone had any respect for the guy it should be gone. It's Kobe's day and you use the first chance you have to talk about him to push your Jim Buss narrative? Disgusting.
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pmacla
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:52 am    Post subject:

it all started downhill when the new CBA came along that makes it a long slow process to rebuild along with Lakers in my mind with no concessions to help them, agreed to pay like $50 mil in revenue sharing per year to the same small market teams that complained when they made that CP3 trade
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject:

It went downhill when guys aged and left the team capped out without relief. The CP3 move might have been a band aid, or maybe not. But we had a good 20-year run, most teams would be lucky with half of that. Assigning blame is for aholes, and idiots, and SAS falls into the idiot category.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:56 am    Post subject:

Quote:
He who angers you, controls you


Jiim Buss resides in SAS head 24/7.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:58 am    Post subject:

The VETO has put us in the position we are now.

And as much as Kobe's extension hurt, it was the honorable thing to do for a guy who brought so much winning to the Lakers.

More than anything, losing CP3 which in turn meant we lost LO and then Pau killed this team.
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tlim
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:01 pm    Post subject:

it's not kobe's contract. we had enough money for 2 max free agents this summer. we got 0 all stars from it. we've proven the "kobe's contract" thing is utter bs.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:06 pm    Post subject:

tlim wrote:
it's not kobe's contract. we had enough money for 2 max free agents this summer. we got 0 all stars from it. we've proven the "kobe's contract" thing is utter bs.


Eh, I think that was a subtext to the real culprit which was the Veto. That really changed the trajectory of the team.

We wouldn't have to trade for Nash, Dwight probably would have come here.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:12 pm    Post subject:

It went downhill once Kobe's achilles couldn't recovered like we all thought it could
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audioaxes
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:15 pm    Post subject:

all dynasties have to fall apart at some point for rebuilding as your franchise players get old and retire. Maybe without the veto we get another championship without CP3 or as one of the very few triple threat players in the league he attracts enough talent to the retirement mode Lakers to avoid an all out rebuilding but no way to say for sure that happens.
I honestly dont mind a fast and hard rebuilding. Crash down, clear your roster of unnecessary salary hoarders, grab some top 3 draft picks, come back with a young and promising team.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:17 pm    Post subject:

The Dallas series should have been the soft rebuild moment. Instead they kept trying and trying and eventually it bit them in the ass. That's not on Jim Buss either.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:19 pm    Post subject:

no thanks.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
The Dallas series should have been the soft rebuild moment. Instead they kept trying and trying and eventually it bit them in the ass. That's not on Jim Buss either.


Nash/Howard seemed fine on paper. But clearly our plan was to have CP3/Howard, which is a better upgrade.

I commend them for picking themselves off the mat to get that deal, but it just didn't work. Stuff happens and we paid (and are still paying for probably another year) for it.

But I do think better times are up ahead.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:30 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
The Dallas series should have been the soft rebuild moment. Instead they kept trying and trying and eventually it bit them in the ass. That's not on Jim Buss either.


Nash/Howard seemed fine on paper. But clearly our plan was to have CP3/Howard, which is a better upgrade.

I commend them for picking themselves off the mat to get that deal, but it just didn't work. Stuff happens and we paid (and are still paying for probably another year) for it.

But I do think better times are up ahead.


I might be in the minority but that summer, I really thought we would finally see Kobe vs LeBron in the finals once we got Nash/D12
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:31 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
The Dallas series should have been the soft rebuild moment. Instead they kept trying and trying and eventually it bit them in the ass. That's not on Jim Buss either.


Nash/Howard seemed fine on paper. But clearly our plan was to have CP3/Howard, which is a better upgrade.

I commend them for picking themselves off the mat to get that deal, but it just didn't work. Stuff happens and we paid (and are still paying for probably another year) for it.

But I do think better times are up ahead.


I might be in the minority but that summer, I really thought we would finally see Kobe vs LeBron in the finals once we got Nash/D12


No you're not. I think most of us did. That was a really good recovery move to get Nash/Howard (and Jamison and J.Hill). It just didn't work out. Oh well.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:35 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
The Dallas series should have been the soft rebuild moment. Instead they kept trying and trying and eventually it bit them in the ass. That's not on Jim Buss either.


Nash/Howard seemed fine on paper. But clearly our plan was to have CP3/Howard, which is a better upgrade.

I commend them for picking themselves off the mat to get that deal, but it just didn't work. Stuff happens and we paid (and are still paying for probably another year) for it.

But I do think better times are up ahead.


I thought it was pretty clear the league was changing, as it turned out rapidly changing, but they pretty decided to stick their heads in the sand, go for bandaids, and play a style that wasn't realistically winnable anymore. If the Dallas series wasn't a good enough indication of that, the OKC series should have been proof positive. Instead they kept believing.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:37 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
The Dallas series should have been the soft rebuild moment. Instead they kept trying and trying and eventually it bit them in the ass. That's not on Jim Buss either.


Nash/Howard seemed fine on paper. But clearly our plan was to have CP3/Howard, which is a better upgrade.

I commend them for picking themselves off the mat to get that deal, but it just didn't work. Stuff happens and we paid (and are still paying for probably another year) for it.

But I do think better times are up ahead.


I thought it was pretty clear the league was changing, as it turned out rapidly changing, but they pretty decided to stick their heads in the sand, go for bandaids, and play a style that wasn't realistically winnable anymore. If the Dallas series wasn't a good enough indication of that, the OKC series should have been proof positive. Instead they kept believing.


How was going for a top 10 PG (albeit a bit older) and the then-#1 center a "bandaid?"

Sure, it was a bad chemistry experiment, but not everyone foresaw Dwight imploding like he did.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
It went downhill when guys aged and left the team capped out without relief. The CP3 move might have been a band aid, or maybe not. But we had a good 20-year run, most teams would be lucky with half of that. Assigning blame is for aholes, and idiots, and SAS falls into the idiot category.


Oh c'mon. He's an ahole too.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:42 pm    Post subject:

you should have said its pathetic SAS
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
The Dallas series should have been the soft rebuild moment. Instead they kept trying and trying and eventually it bit them in the ass. That's not on Jim Buss either.


Nash/Howard seemed fine on paper. But clearly our plan was to have CP3/Howard, which is a better upgrade.

I commend them for picking themselves off the mat to get that deal, but it just didn't work. Stuff happens and we paid (and are still paying for probably another year) for it.

But I do think better times are up ahead.


I thought it was pretty clear the league was changing, as it turned out rapidly changing, but they pretty decided to stick their heads in the sand, go for bandaids, and play a style that wasn't realistically winnable anymore. If the Dallas series wasn't a good enough indication of that, the OKC series should have been proof positive. Instead they kept believing.


How was going for a top 10 PG (albeit a bit older) and the then-#1 center a "bandaid?"

Sure, it was a bad chemistry experiment, but not everyone foresaw Dwight imploding like he did.


I'd rather not answer that. It's water under the bridge. No point in regurgitating it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:34 pm    Post subject:

Kobe's 7 game death march leading up to the Achilles tear.

3/30/2013 - 47 minutes, 4/2/2013- 47 minutes, 4/5/2013- 42 minutes, 4/7/2013- 47 minutes, 4/9/2013- 41 minutes, 4/10/2013- 48 minutes, 4/12/2013- 45 minutes

(bleep) ing disgusting, when looking back at it. What a shame. If I coached, I wouldn't do that to a 24 year old player. Let alone a 34 year old player in his 16th year in the league. And it wasn't even the playoffs. Those were regular season minute totals.
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Last edited by kikanga on Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:36 pm    Post subject:

As bad as the veto was, the Lakers should've looked to make other moves. I don't blame them for getting Nash or even Howard, but in retrospect I would've looked to trade Bynum for someone like Igoudala. He would've given us that perimeter defender that we needed since MWP was pretty much useless after 2011. He also would've given us another scoring threat, plus a facilitator like what Odom was.

I think Phil would've been intrigued by a team like that. Move Gasol to C, start Odom at PF and find an adequate PG.

Gasol
Odom
Igoudala
Kobe
Fisher/Blake/?

That team with Phil at the helm could've seriously contended in 2013 and also 2014 if Kobe didn't get hurt.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:39 pm    Post subject:

Complete and unmitigated disaster. Even after the veto we were a second round playoff team. The decision to go with Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson was the real critical turning point for this franchise. There is no coming back from a blunder like that.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:06 pm    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Complete and unmitigated disaster. Even after the veto we were a second round playoff team. The decision to go with Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson was the real critical turning point for this franchise. There is no coming back from a blunder like that.


Thanks for pointing that out.

Some fans do not recognize how that decision can decimate a franchise.

Here, since the Lakers was a highly respected franchise with strong reputation, there were multiple decisions that eventually led to its present state. (ie, death of Buss, veto of the trade, hiring of D'Antoni, etc.)

Rome was not destroyed in one day.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:43 pm    Post subject:

Well, it was bound to happen with an aging franchise player. Kobe was the heart and soul of the Lakers for a long time. When he got hurt is when it really turned to no playoffs.

So actually all the moves for the Lakers to tank faster worked out like a charm. The big mistake was giving so much first round draft picks for Nash and Howard. Lots of first round draft picks lost for nothing.
Otherwise, the rebuild might be turning around much faster.

But when you consider the luck of the Lakers to get two second round draft picks and a 7th round player is making the most of draft picks left.
The Lakers have rebuilt with a core of Ingram, Russell, and Randle.
With Clarkson, Zubac, Nance, Black make a fine young rebuilding core.

With only one first round pick in the next three years, the Lakers will have to live with that young core.
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