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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:34 pm    Post subject:

22 wrote:
It's water under the bridge now, but I still put the vast majority of the blame of that rift on Shaq and Phil


Also bear in mind one guy was in his early 20's at the time and was drafted at 17 to cut his teeth and mature among adults. I don't know, maybe it's just me but I'd put the onus of maturity on the guy that was in his 30s during the split. Amazing to me how it's never mentioned...kind of important in group dynamics yah know? And I agree on Phil, his (bleep)-show games caused an ember to grow out of control. It was no coincidence that the man who constantly had to put out the fires that Phil was addicted to starting (West) was no longer with the team when things inexorably headed towards a meltdown.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Hammett wrote:
Shaq was such a huge personality, he brought drama wherever he went, and I think that is a big part of the Shaq mystique.

Shaq is a natural entertainer, had amazing footwork, most dominant ever. But he'll forever regret not getting along with Kobe.


This canard has run its course. We have all seen more than enough of these two individuals over the years to understand the source of the friction. All of you folks can sell this nonsense until you're blue in the collective face, but the only individuals who agree with you are yourselves ... that's why others chide you for living in an echo chamber. So let's be clear for a moment: you convince exactly nobody new with this (bleep).

Shaq played a role in the discord and he's certainly not blameless in the friction with Kobe during their shared tenure, but unsubtly suggesting that Shaq carries the bulk of the blame for the unravelling of their relationship (and our franchise's prospects) is laughably out-of-touch with 20 years of reality.

If that wasn't your suggestion, my bad ... but it certainly seems that you're suggesting that Kobe wasn't the agitator of the friction with Shaq, which is as far from the truth as possible. Kobe was many great things for this organization for a long time, but none of those things involved the terms "cooperative" or "humility" or "self-aware" or "works well with others". He was at the wheel in the friction with Shaq. Any argument to the contrary is utter (bleep).


The statement wasn't trying to point the finger at either Kobe or Shaq; I think both have equal share of the blame (not to mention Phil's influence as others have mentioned).

It's rather more of a "what if" scenario. Shaq and Kobe should have won at least 7 titles together, IMO. But Shaq's departure paved the way for the Gasol years, and for that we have two championships and a nice three-four year run as an elite team.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:51 pm    Post subject:

Hammett wrote:
the association wrote:
Hammett wrote:
Shaq was such a huge personality, he brought drama wherever he went, and I think that is a big part of the Shaq mystique.

Shaq is a natural entertainer, had amazing footwork, most dominant ever. But he'll forever regret not getting along with Kobe.


This canard has run its course. We have all seen more than enough of these two individuals over the years to understand the source of the friction. All of you folks can sell this nonsense until you're blue in the collective face, but the only individuals who agree with you are yourselves ... that's why others chide you for living in an echo chamber. So let's be clear for a moment: you convince exactly nobody new with this (bleep).

Shaq played a role in the discord and he's certainly not blameless in the friction with Kobe during their shared tenure, but unsubtly suggesting that Shaq carries the bulk of the blame for the unravelling of their relationship (and our franchise's prospects) is laughably out-of-touch with 20 years of reality.

If that wasn't your suggestion, my bad ... but it certainly seems that you're suggesting that Kobe wasn't the agitator of the friction with Shaq, which is as far from the truth as possible. Kobe was many great things for this organization for a long time, but none of those things involved the terms "cooperative" or "humility" or "self-aware" or "works well with others". He was at the wheel in the friction with Shaq. Any argument to the contrary is utter (bleep).


The statement wasn't trying to point the finger at either Kobe or Shaq; I think both have equal share of the blame (not to mention Phil's influence as others have mentioned).

It's rather more of a "what if" scenario. Shaq and Kobe should have won at least 7 titles together, IMO. But Shaq's departure paved the way for the Gasol years, and for that we have two championships and a nice three-four year run as an elite team.


I agree with your second paragraph entirely ... however, I would additionally posit that Shaq's departure ultimately yielded not just Gasol, but also Odom and Bynum. Instrumental members in our last two rings, all three ...

As for the first, though, I think that apportioning anything less than the lion's share to Kobe isn't reasonable given the totality of what we've seen and learned from the principal parties over the past 20 years. Heading into the 2002/2003 season, Shaq was the 3x defending Finals MVP with a threepeat in his rearview mirror. Simply put, the status quo was just fine in his book. However, Kobe was very clearly, very publicly unhappy with the status quo. He was the one agitating for change. He wanted to be "the man" at LITERALLY any cost. This isn't conjecture. This is unambiguous fact.

He intentionally chose forcing the issue ... he chose trying to carry a team on his own (resulting in abject failure for three seasons, mind you) over winning rings as a "coattail rider". And it's no secret that Kobe would confirm that fact to anyone's face to this very day. He STILL believes in himself so much that he will defend his decision to lose as "the man" over winning as anything less than "the man". That's his mindset in EVERYTHING. I know this type of competitor very well. Again, if Kobe won't dispute it himself, why do others refuse to give up this ghost?

Anyway ... given those details; given the remarks he made to LE that are not quite snitching, but certainly in the neighborhood; given the interview with Jim Gray; given what we learned from Phil in his own book; given his trade demands that the general public has known about for years (to say nothing of the ones leaking out in dribs and drabs of late); and given the last 20 years of near-constant friction with teammates (always explained away by placing the blame on the "lazy, incompetent, cowardly" teammates), how in the (bleep) are we still arguing these percentages ... ???
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:57 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Is this irony unintended or intended?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:06 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Unintended or intended irony, you salty, spiteful SOB?


Stick to what you originally brought on the two-handed backhand return ...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:10 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Unintended or intended irony, you salty, spiteful SOB?


Stick to what you originally brought on the two-handed backhand return ...


Well in this match I'm using able vs. wheelchair rules because it's you on the other side.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Unintended or intended irony, you salty, spiteful SOB?


Stick to what you originally brought on the two-handed backhand return ...


Well in this match I'm using able vs. wheelchair rules because it's you on the other side.


That's a relief. I wouldn't want anything less than your full effort, wheelchair or ambulatory ... but let's return to the topic at hand. Do you have anything to add to the discussion? Shall I guess how you apportion blame in the matter of Shaq v. Kobe? Or were you merely dropping by to defend Wojnarowski's honor?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:54 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Unintended or intended irony, you salty, spiteful SOB?


Stick to what you originally brought on the two-handed backhand return ...


Well in this match I'm using able vs. wheelchair rules because it's you on the other side.


That's a relief. I wouldn't want anything less than your full effort, wheelchair or ambulatory ... but let's return to the topic at hand. Do you have anything to add to the discussion? Shall I guess how you apportion blame in the matter of Shaq v. Kobe? Or were you merely dropping by to defend Wojnarowski's honor?


For now, I don't much feel like interacting with the thread beyond razzing you for critique of Woj's body of work (which is mostly accurate), because "grudge-fueled garbage" is your flagship instrument for expression re: Kobe Bryant.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:02 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Unintended or intended irony, you salty, spiteful SOB?


Stick to what you originally brought on the two-handed backhand return ...


Well in this match I'm using able vs. wheelchair rules because it's you on the other side.


That's a relief. I wouldn't want anything less than your full effort, wheelchair or ambulatory ... but let's return to the topic at hand. Do you have anything to add to the discussion? Shall I guess how you apportion blame in the matter of Shaq v. Kobe? Or were you merely dropping by to defend Wojnarowski's honor?


For now, I don't much feel like interacting with the thread beyond razzing you for critique of Woj's body of work (which is mostly accurate), because "grudge-fueled garbage" is your flagship instrument for expression re: Kobe Bryant.


Wojnarowski is an intellectually (and physically) flabby rounding error. Little, if any, of his reporting of this type is accurate. On the contrary, you transparently defend that POS because his affection for Kobe (and related grudge toward Shaq, LeBron, ESPN, the civilized world) meets your approval and aligns well with your worldview. And as the self-appointed deputy moderator, you felt the need to join the conversation for the purpose of trolling ... ? Seriously ... ?

As always, you never once step-up with a fact-driven response to my so-called "garbage". It's a parade of drivel from the supposed MD with hardcourt chops, but you invariably neglect to actually refute the positions against which you otherwise rail. Curious ... all snark, no fight.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
22 wrote:
It's water under the bridge now, but I still put the vast majority of the blame of that rift on Shaq and Phil


Also bear in mind one guy was in his early 20's at the time and was drafted at 17 to cut his teeth and mature among adults. I don't know, maybe it's just me but I'd put the onus of maturity on the guy that was in his 30s during the split. Amazing to me how it's never mentioned...kind of important in group dynamics yah know? And I agree on Phil, his (bleep)-show games caused an ember to grow out of control. It was no coincidence that the man who constantly had to put out the fires that Phil was addicted to starting (West) was no longer with the team when things inexorably headed towards a meltdown.

My sentiments exactly JB.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:32 pm    Post subject:

Is someone here on Shaqs payroll? Is that you JA Adande?

Love the convenient omission of Shaqs not so clever coded pot shots through media from 1998-2004. Shaq is 7yrs older and Kobe was a teenager for half of those times. Why is a 25 yr old ganging up the other vets and bullying a teenager instead of being the big brother he claimed to be in media?

Kobe was right, Shaq was out of shape for majority of his career, even in his prime in LA. BShaw eluded to that recently. Shaq in Orlando was a physical beast. With us, he started putting on too much weight. Though to his credit, he was in great shape that first year in Miami. Which of course only make Kobe's point about him being lazy and out of shape more valid.

Root of it all was Kobe's impatience and Shaq's inferiority complex with guards. Something he always had in every stop. Left Orlando mainly b/c Penny was getting too much shine. Shaq always has to be The Man on and off the court. Kobe did unleash with that J Gray interview, but I don't fault him for that. After taking years of veiled shots about feeding the dog nonsense from Shaq it was bound to happen. I'm surprised he didn't clap back sooner. Now, that dime he dropped with the cops, if true (cops never lie or plant right..), I didn't like. Kobe f-ed up. Shaq then f-ed up by publicly blasting Jerry Buss for contract extension. He was bitter that Jerry chose Kobe over him, which was the right choice. He left every franchise on bad terms.

If I had to choose whose fault, I say 30/40/30 Kobe/Shaq/Phil.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:34 am    Post subject:

http://a.espncdn.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0516/1200325.html

If the first part of the story was Bryant's obvious yearning to be The Man, then surely the second part is Bryant making some sort of peace with the fact that, in a championship run, all are Men. (Lesson for you future NBA Hall of Famers: If what you desire from your career is to have your own team in the worst way, chances are that's exactly what you'll get -- the worst way, indeed.)

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25196267/shaq-allegedly-threatened-to-murder-kobe-bryant-in-2004

Kobe Bryant: I wasn't going to play with Shaq anymore after that. That just wasn't going to happen. Things he had said, criticism from the media in saying I can't win without him. Look, I put that individual s--t aside to win championships and now I'm getting criticized for it. Now I'm going to show you f--ks what I can do on my own. So that challenge, I was going to answer that challenge no matter what—whether I was going to stay in L.A. or go somewhere else, I was going to answer that challenge.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2468658-an-oral-history-of-the-2003-2004-los-angeles-lakers-the-first-super-team

Chauncey Billups: Our game plan was very calculated. We knew we were going to play Shaq straight-up. We knew there was no way we could stop Shaq straight-up. And there was also no way we could stop Kobe straight-up. But, if we’re going to play Shaq straight-up, [the Lakers'] eyes are going to get big, which means they’re going to keep throwing it down there. We’re telling Ben the whole time, "Take fouls when you need to, but don’t get yourself into foul trouble. You need to give up a layup, cool, we’re going to get what we want on the other side." But what’s going to happen is Mr. Bryant is going to get a little discouraged with getting no touches and now the second half comes around…now he’s pressing. He’s going to start coming down and just breaking the offense. When you do that, you’re done—you’re playing right into our hands. Even if you start making those shots, you’re finished.

I've got blame apportioned 60-65% to Kobe, 30-35% to Shaq and 0-10% to Phil. And I think the boiling-over point occurred in the 2002/2003 season.

Shaq wanted to preserve the status quo, which would maintain him as the primary focal point and first option of the organization on the court ... but that status quo had also resulted in three straight rings. And as we all know, he was the Finals MVP all three years. For better or worse, the casual observer wouldn't have even thought Kobe was one of the Top 2 players on the court in two of those three years in reviewing the numbers from those NBA Finals series (Shaq, Reggie Miller and Jalen Rose in 2000; Shaq and Allen Iverson in 2001).

Kobe, on the other hand, wasn't amenable to the status quo, even if it meant that the organization's ability to compete for championships would suffer. Of course, we all learned how badly his hubris and ego blinded him to the reality of what awaited the team without Shaq. He wanted to be "the man" at any cost, including apparently this organization's course correction from perennial title favorite for five straight seasons to three straight seasons of unbridled embarrassment. "Now I'm going to show you f--ks what I can do on my own." Yeah, he showed us alright.

So there won't be agreement here, in this thread related to Shaq's HOF induction. Kobe's ego-driven need for recognition, to forcibly wrest away the adoration #34 was effortlessly receiving from the media and fans alike, led to Shaq's departure from the team and our march into the wilderness for three years of unmitigated failure. Failure to deliver as promised, failure to justify the "I eat first" ethos that has been Kobe's mantra his entire life, and failure to convince any of us who simply won't overlook the facts.

I don't think Kobe's an irredeemable (bleep) for what happened here. As I said from the outset, even Shaq fans like me concede that he played a role in the friction with Kobe and he was sometimes a (bleep) himself during the course of his career. That said, I think we probably missed out, as an organization, on one additional ring for all of the senseless drama over the past 15 - 17 years. But I think the decision by Dr. Buss to choose Kobe over Shaq in 2004, given that constructive ultimatum by Kobe, was the right one. And Kobe finally managed to validate himself with a Top 10 / 15 career in the process, one many of us thought might never happen after the 2004 offseason. But nobody should get it twisted. All of the talk in this thread re: the age disparity, Kobe's objection to Shaq's purported conditioning issues and offseason preparation, Kobe's "right" to fight back against so-called accusations that he was a "coattail rider", Shaq's role in the fiction, and Phil's role in the friction are just part of another series of excuses. It's always a near-constant barrage of excuses to shift the blame to everyone else, always away from Kobe.

He was a teenager and Shaq was 24 in 1996, so Shaq should have been mature enough to allow the teenager to do whatever he wanted to do without response. He was upset because Shaq's conditioning didn't meet his approval (despite the fact that the team had just won three straight rings, largely on the back of Shaq's efforts), so we shouldn't hold it against him that his desire to be "the man" led to the 2003 and 2004 postseason debacles, Shaq's departure via trade, and the organization's march to irrelevancy during the following three seasons. He was upset that he was viewed by some as a "coattail rider" during the threepeat who "couldn't win without Shaq", so he was justified in (bleep) over the organization with his constructive ultimatum and those resulting three seasons as laughingstock of the league. ESPN and the NBA (and especially its officials) have always had it out for him, so we shouldn't believe what they report (or the calls they make) because he's never been given a fair shake like others.

He was forced to play with lazy, untalented, unassertive teammates over the years, so he was justified in doing whatever he wanted but never once shouldering blame for the team's poor play. He always had more injuries than anyone else, so he was always deserving of a mulligan when he had another bad shooting game (or a six-season run to end his career with a cumulative 9 - 17 postseason record and the first threepeat of its kind in franchise history - an unprecedented failure to qualify for the playoffs for three straight seasons). He was upset that Shaq didn't do enough to support him during the pre-trial distractions in Colorado, so he was justified in making previous statements to LE that amounted to snitching-adjacent treachery.

He didn't have enough talent around him, so he's not to blame for the four or five 25+ point elimination game postseason losses that he's presided over in his career. He was upset that the Buss family didn't do enough to mitigate the (bleep) mess he orchestrated for himself in the mid-2000s after forcing Shaq out, so he was justified in demanding a trade like a petulant baby in 2007. And the Lakers organization didn't do enough to cater to his teenage and early 20s needs early in his career, so he was also justified in demanding trades at that time that the public has only begun to learn about very recently.

And on and on and on ...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:05 am    Post subject:

67ShelbyGT wrote:
Is someone here on Shaqs payroll? Is that you JA Adande?

Love the convenient omission of Shaqs not so clever coded pot shots through media from 1998-2004. Shaq is 7yrs older and Kobe was a teenager for half of those times. Why is a 25 yr old ganging up the other vets and bullying a teenager instead of being the big brother he claimed to be in media?

Kobe was right, Shaq was out of shape for majority of his career, even in his prime in LA. BShaw eluded to that recently. Shaq in Orlando was a physical beast. With us, he started putting on too much weight. Though to his credit, he was in great shape that first year in Miami. Which of course only make Kobe's point about him being lazy and out of shape more valid.

Root of it all was Kobe's impatience and Shaq's inferiority complex with guards. Something he always had in every stop. Left Orlando mainly b/c Penny was getting too much shine. Shaq always has to be The Man on and off the court. Kobe did unleash with that J Gray interview, but I don't fault him for that. After taking years of veiled shots about feeding the dog nonsense from Shaq it was bound to happen. I'm surprised he didn't clap back sooner. Now, that dime he dropped with the cops, if true (cops never lie or plant right..), I didn't like. Kobe f-ed up. Shaq then f-ed up by publicly blasting Jerry Buss for contract extension. He was bitter that Jerry chose Kobe over him, which was the right choice. He left every franchise on bad terms.

If I had to choose whose fault, I say 30/40/30 Kobe/Shaq/Phil.


Of course you would. Kobe was to blame, Shaq was to blame, Phil was to blame. Assigning percentages is nothing but admitting to your bias. It was Kobe who poisoned that 2003-2004 team, to the point that seasoned vets didn't want to play with him anymore. Other than that season, everything was immaturity and egging on by Phil. But that season belongs squarely to Kobe.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:38 am    Post subject:

Oh god. Shaq hasn't been a Laker in over 12 years. I'd say both him and Kobe did ok without eachother. FWIW, Shaq's last five yrs in the playoffs... 7-13. (and that includes 1 sweep and discounting his last year with Boston when he only played 2 games and averaged 1 point). He also missed the playoffs in 09 with Nash, Amare, Hill, Barbosa and Richardson. Honestly, I don't think you could make the case that the public's early concerns about his attitude and conditioning didn't come to fruition.

But all in all I'm grateful we got to enjoy him at a point in his life where he actually cared about being a top player.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:49 am    Post subject:

The Grind wrote:
Oh god. Shaq hasn't been a Laker in over 12 years. I'd say both him and Kobe did ok without eachother. FWIW, Shaq's last five yrs in the playoffs... 7-13. (and that includes 1 sweep and discounting his last year with Boston when he only played 2 games and averaged 1 point). He also missed the playoffs in 09 with Nash, Amare, Hill, Barbosa and Richardson. Honestly, I don't think you could make the case that the public's early concerns about his attitude and conditioning didn't come to fruition.

But all in all I'm grateful we got to enjoy him at a point in his life where he actually cared about being a top player.


Yeah, agreed ... Shaq was a low- to non-impact player for his final 5/6 years, too (maybe more, as a matter of fact, if you expand what "low-impact" really means). The distinction isn't that he was anything but. It's that those who hold Kobe accountable for the friction between him and Shaq, amongst other issues that have affected us here as Lakers fans for a long time, don't use excuses and spin moves their go-to tactics to explain away Shaq's decline. It wasn't Nash's fault, nor was it anyone else's fault in Phoenix that Shaq was succumbing to Father Time. He couldn't get them over the hump. Same with Miami at the tail end of his time there. It likewise wasn't LeBron's fault, nor anyone else's fault in Cleveland. And it wasn't Paul Pierce's fault, nor anyone else's fault in Boston, that he didn't end his career there with greater triumph. Father Time stops for none of us.

That's the point ... the relentless fusillade of excuses for Kobe is the one constant. You can point to Magic, Jordan, Shaq or LeBron ... I don't think the fan bases of those four players combined amount to the level of excuse-making that has accompanied Kobe's career.

Bottom line: you're exactly right ... both did "OK" without one another. But after what we saw from 2000 - 2002, isn't that a shame?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject:

the association wrote:
The Grind wrote:
Oh god. Shaq hasn't been a Laker in over 12 years. I'd say both him and Kobe did ok without eachother. FWIW, Shaq's last five yrs in the playoffs... 7-13. (and that includes 1 sweep and discounting his last year with Boston when he only played 2 games and averaged 1 point). He also missed the playoffs in 09 with Nash, Amare, Hill, Barbosa and Richardson. Honestly, I don't think you could make the case that the public's early concerns about his attitude and conditioning didn't come to fruition.

But all in all I'm grateful we got to enjoy him at a point in his life where he actually cared about being a top player.


Yeah, agreed ... Shaq was a low- to non-impact player for his final 5/6 years, too (maybe more, as a matter of fact, if you expand what "low-impact" really means). The distinction isn't that he was anything but. It's that those who hold Kobe accountable for the friction between him and Shaq, amongst other issues that have affected us here as Lakers fans for a long time, don't use excuses and spin moves their go-to tactics to explain away Shaq's decline. It wasn't Nash's fault, nor was it anyone else's fault in Phoenix that Shaq was succumbing to Father Time. He couldn't get them over the hump. Same with Miami at the tail end of his time there. It likewise wasn't LeBron's fault, nor anyone else's fault in Cleveland. And it wasn't Paul Pierce's fault, nor anyone else's fault in Boston, that he didn't end his career there with greater triumph. Father Time stops for none of us.

That's the point ... the relentless fusillade of excuses for Kobe is the one constant. You can point to Magic, Jordan, Shaq or LeBron ... I don't think the fan bases of those four players combined amount to the level of excuse-making that has accompanied Kobe's career.

Bottom line: you're exactly right ... both did "OK" without one another. But after what we saw from 2000 - 2002, isn't that a shame?


Big shame. But it had to happen. Those guys didn't like each other, what are you going to do? We've seen it all the time. In sports... Vlade/Drazen, Jeter/ARod, Martin/Steinbrenner, Shaq/Penny, etc.... In Music... Beatles, Police, Floyd, etc.. With other famous figures... Diana/Charles, Jobs/Wozniak etc. Hapeens everytime. Whenever there's two or more big egos, it's rare for one to give in. But I give Shaq/Kobe credit for two things: accomplishing all theat they did in such a short time and more importantly, putting their (bleep) aside and reconciling.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:37 pm    Post subject:

Haha this is entertaining to say the least. Its like 2004 all over again. Shaq brigade trying so desperately to spin with this revisionist history bs to scapegoat Kobe for Shaq being a career underacheiver (which he conceded to btw). Shaq was in shape for just 2 season after Orlando. First year Phil got here and 1st with Miami, one resulted in MVP and 2nd he was robbed of MVP by Nash. Shaq and his minions always made excuses as if no one in history ever had plantar fascitis. Shaq is so insecure that he was mad that his teammates and Phil would not embellish his little injuries to make him look good to media.

I get the bitterness in Shaq fans tho. I remember back in '04, every Shaq fan put it on their mother that Kobe would never win another ring and Shaq would go on to win 4-5 more. Shaq never won (bleep) w/o Kobe. Refs and DWade (20 fta/g in g4-6 really??) robbed Mavs of '06 title.

The biggest myth I see Shaq jockers perpetuate is that Shaq "carried" the Lakers to 3 'ships! Its comical how disingenuous that claim is. Only argument they keep repeating is he got the finals MVP. Andre Iguodala got an MVP too. The Final MVP is for 1 series, not the playoffs. Even a basic NBA fan knew the finals were just a exhibition, a mere formality against a JV team, after the real finals took place (WCF). Through WCF, Kobe was the MVP. He demolished Kings, Spurs when they stifled Shaq into a mere mortal. He led the comeback vs Blazers where Shaq was shut down by Sabonis + Sheed. If the MVP was for entire playoffs, maybe Shaq gets the 1st MVP, the next 2 were Kobe's hands down. Hell, even the first one was in the balance when Shaq fouled out and a then 21yo took over to save the series.

But lets let the little JA Adande troll continue with this comical revisionist history bs. I know shaq tried to buy love by inviting media members like JA over to house. And it worked on the simpletons, the faux news sheep types.

Simple tip, anytime you quote ESPN on bball related topic, you are showing your hand on your own bball knowledge. smh

(VLF - you probably dont want to use "bias" against anyone given your track record. Pot calling Kettle black much? I never pretend and masquerade that I value skilled hard working players over athletic freaks that underachieves e.g. Shaq, D12, Vince )
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:47 pm    Post subject:

67ShelbyGT wrote:
Haha this is entertaining to say the least. Its like 2004 all over again. Shaq brigade trying so desperately to spin with this revisionist history bs to scapegoat Kobe for Shaq being a career underacheiver (which he conceded to btw). Shaq was in shape for just 2 season after Orlando. First year Phil got here and 1st with Miami, one resulted in MVP and 2nd he was robbed of MVP by Nash. Shaq and his minions always made excuses as if no one in history ever had plantar fascitis. Shaq is so insecure that he was mad that his teammates and Phil would not embellish his little injuries to make him look good to media.

I get the bitterness in Shaq fans tho. I remember back in '04, every Shaq fan put it on their mother that Kobe would never win another ring and Shaq would go on to win 4-5 more. Shaq never won (bleep) w/o Kobe. Refs and DWade (20 fta/g in g4-6 really??) robbed Mavs of '06 title.

The biggest myth I see Shaq jockers perpetuate is that Shaq "carried" the Lakers to 3 'ships! Its comical how disingenuous that claim is. Only argument they keep repeating is he got the finals MVP. Andre Iguodala got an MVP too. The Final MVP is for 1 series, not the playoffs. Even a basic NBA fan knew the finals were just a exhibition, a mere formality against a JV team, after the real finals took place (WCF). Through WCF, Kobe was the MVP. He demolished Kings, Spurs when they stifled Shaq into a mere mortal. He led the comeback vs Blazers where Shaq was shut down by Sabonis + Sheed. If the MVP was for entire playoffs, maybe Shaq gets the 1st MVP, the next 2 were Kobe's hands down. Hell, even the first one was in the balance when Shaq fouled out and a then 21yo took over to save the series.

But lets let the little JA Adande troll continue with this comical revisionist history bs. I know shaq tried to buy love by inviting media members like JA over to house. And it worked on the simpletons, the faux news sheep types.

Simple tip, anytime you quote ESPN on bball related topic, you are showing your hand on your own bball knowledge. smh

(VLF - you probably dont want to use "bias" against anyone given your track record. Pot calling Kettle black much? I never pretend and masquerade that I value skilled hard working players over athletic freaks that underachieves e.g. Shaq, D12, Vince )


Bolded are essentially the first words ever to escape your keyboard that I've agreed with ...

But excluding that point and as usual, no actual details or dispassionate substance from another regular continuing to ply this wishful narrative here ... but it's just hyperbolic nonsense that isn't any more serious today than its been in the past.

Under this narrative, Kobe's performance in completely uncompetitive series sweeps over the Trailblazers, Kings and Spurs in the 2001 WC playoffs carries weight in assessing who led the team, but our NBA Finals series win vs. Philly (a team that actually put up a fight with AI outplaying Kobe and the reigning DPOY in Mutombo onhand) doesn't matter in this individual's book. Shaq's 27.0 points and 15.7 rebounds on 48% shooting again Portland in the 2001 WCQF, 33.3 points and 17.3 rebounds on 60% shooting against Sacramento in the 2001 WCSF, and 27.0 points and 13.0 rebounds on 54% shooting against San Antonio in the WCF amounts to "mere mortal" production, but Kobe's arguably lesser overall production against far inferior competition at the wing is somehow "demolishing" the opponent. And that's before Shaq hung 33.0 points, 15.8 rebounds, 4.8 assists and 3.4 blocks (on 57% shooting) on that same reigning DPOY Mutombo in the Finals. But he wasn't the MVP. No, Kobe's exploits against teams who couldn't even find a measly (bleep) win in those respective series ... he was the "real MVP". For (bleep) real with this nonsense ...

I can waste time dragging out the numbers for 2000 and 2002, as well, but the "demolishing" you think you saw whilst Shaq was a "mere mortal" is more fantasy than reality, of that you can be assured. 40-point games in no-pressure series wipeouts are not the crucible tests you apparently think they are ... but what's really intriguing to me is how you must struggle to accept someone like LeBron's postseason "demolishing" in elimination games. I'm guessing that must torment you ... ?

Nevertheless, you persist in quoting a goofball comedian's third-person supposed quotation of John Wooden (validated by exactly nobody else, regardless of the fact that it doesn't really even matter if the Wizard late in life said it or not) as gospel in your signature, but ESPN isn't credible when it comes to the sport of professional basketball? Just paint your face already ...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject:

completely uncompetitive series sweeps over the Trailblazers, Kings and Spurs in the 2001 WC playoffs"

Stopped reading after this point. So the Spurs who were heavily favored againsy us in 2001 + essentially the same deep Blazers team that took us to g7 + stacked Kings were all
inferior than the mighty 76ers??!!

You do know your own man Shaq just said hey should've swept the sixes right... Only reason we lost game 1 is b/c of the long layoff. Of course we got that layoff due to Kobe sweeping those "uncompetitive series"

Sixers >> Spurs, Kings, Blazer? Time to stop this. Obviously bball is not your sport.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject:

67ShelbyGT wrote:
completely uncompetitive series sweeps over the Trailblazers, Kings and Spurs in the 2001 WC playoffs"

Stopped reading after this point. So the Spurs who were heavily favored againsy us in 2001 + essentially the same deep Blazers team that took us to g7 + stacked Kings were all
inferior than the mighty 76ers??!!

You do know your own man Shaq just said hey should've swept the sixes right... Only reason we lost game 1 is b/c of the long layoff. Of course we got that layoff due to Kobe sweeping those "uncompetitive series"

Sixers >> Spurs, Kings, Blazer? Time to stop this. Obviously bball is not your sport.


Sweeps over the Blazers (3 - 0), Kings (4 - 0) and Spurs (4 - 0) with an average margin of victory in those series of 14.3 points, 9.3 points, and 22.3 points, respectively. And what were Shaq's numbers in those series? Glad you asked. He averaged 29.3 points and 15.3 boards on 54 - 55% shooting over those three series. Yeah, I'm not convinced that's "mere mortal" territory. But Kobe pitched in with 31.6 points, 7 boards and 6 assists, and that's clearly "demolishing" in your book, right? Out of curiosity, do you reckon that LeBron "demolished" OKC in 2012, San Antonio in 2013, and Golden State in 2015 and 2016?

And then moving on, we had an average margin of victory of 6.8 points in the NBA Finals against Philly (with a loss in Game 1, winning the series 4 - 1). OF COURSE you have an excuse to explain away Iverson absolutely wrecking shop on our backcourt in that Game 1 loss. Yeah, that's right. Combo guard Allen Iverson was the second best player on the court in that NBA Finals, and it wasn't particularly close between #2 and #3. That's called reality. But Shaq ... what did he do that series, you ask? Averages of 33.0 points, 15.8 rebounds, 4.8 assists and 3.4 blocks (on 57% shooting) head-to-head against the reigning DPOY Mutombo. Yeah ... "mere mortal" ... for sure.

Excuses, excuses, excuses ... those excuses, the ever-present (yet indefensible) logic, and the same hyperbolic nonsense are all you're bringing to the discussion right now. Hard facts in short supply, as always ...

So again ... I'll save time and refrain from rehashing 2000 and 2002, as well. We'll just have to agree to disagree ... I think you're out-of-your-depth the moment you express a thought in this area or any other (and that's as charitable as I'll get with descriptors), and you think the same of me. That's life ...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject:

Well deserved Big Diesel. Thanks for your best years.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:42 pm    Post subject:

glad i revisited this thread. The Shaq vs Kobe, who was the man arguments are top notch!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Is this irony unintended or intended?


Haha, exactly what I was thinking!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Unintended or intended irony, you salty, spiteful SOB?


Stick to what you originally brought on the two-handed backhand return ...


Well in this match I'm using able vs. wheelchair rules because it's you on the other side.


That's a relief. I wouldn't want anything less than your full effort, wheelchair or ambulatory ... but let's return to the topic at hand. Do you have anything to add to the discussion? Shall I guess how you apportion blame in the matter of Shaq v. Kobe? Or were you merely dropping by to defend Wojnarowski's honor?


For now, I don't much feel like interacting with the thread beyond razzing you for critique of Woj's body of work (which is mostly accurate), because "grudge-fueled garbage" is your flagship instrument for expression re: Kobe Bryant.


Wojnarowski is an intellectually (and physically) flabby rounding error. Little, if any, of his reporting of this type is accurate. On the contrary, you transparently defend that POS because his affection for Kobe (and related grudge toward Shaq, LeBron, ESPN, the civilized world) meets your approval and aligns well with your worldview. And as the self-appointed deputy moderator, you felt the need to join the conversation for the purpose of trolling ... ? Seriously ... ?

As always, you never once step-up with a fact-driven response to my so-called "garbage". It's a parade of drivel from the supposed MD with hardcourt chops, but you invariably neglect to actually refute the positions against which you otherwise rail. Curious ... all snark, no fight.


Just being a bystander here, but your attitude and over-the-top approach and response to anyone who disagrees with you is pretty much laughable. Hey man, you gonna kick all our asses!!! You're tough, we know it!!

Why would ANYONE want to get into a multiple response interaction with you? You are not going to give up anything, or learn anything new! You are what you are. One trick pony who hates Kobe, I guess. I could care less. Just my 2 cents and I am out.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject:

Wino wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
the association wrote:


I have no respect or regard for Wojnarowski, and his work in this area is grudge-fueled garbage anyway.


Unintended or intended irony, you salty, spiteful SOB?


Stick to what you originally brought on the two-handed backhand return ...


Well in this match I'm using able vs. wheelchair rules because it's you on the other side.


That's a relief. I wouldn't want anything less than your full effort, wheelchair or ambulatory ... but let's return to the topic at hand. Do you have anything to add to the discussion? Shall I guess how you apportion blame in the matter of Shaq v. Kobe? Or were you merely dropping by to defend Wojnarowski's honor?


For now, I don't much feel like interacting with the thread beyond razzing you for critique of Woj's body of work (which is mostly accurate), because "grudge-fueled garbage" is your flagship instrument for expression re: Kobe Bryant.


Wojnarowski is an intellectually (and physically) flabby rounding error. Little, if any, of his reporting of this type is accurate. On the contrary, you transparently defend that POS because his affection for Kobe (and related grudge toward Shaq, LeBron, ESPN, the civilized world) meets your approval and aligns well with your worldview. And as the self-appointed deputy moderator, you felt the need to join the conversation for the purpose of trolling ... ? Seriously ... ?

As always, you never once step-up with a fact-driven response to my so-called "garbage". It's a parade of drivel from the supposed MD with hardcourt chops, but you invariably neglect to actually refute the positions against which you otherwise rail. Curious ... all snark, no fight.


Just being a bystander here, but your attitude and over-the-top approach and response to anyone who disagrees with you is pretty much laughable. Hey man, you gonna kick all our asses!!! You're tough, we know it!!

Why would ANYONE want to get into a multiple response interaction with you? You are not going to give up anything, or learn anything new! You are what you are. One trick pony who hates Kobe, I guess. I could care less. Just my 2 cents and I am out.


On the contrary, I'm not opposed at all to considering facts and details (and even opinions, when expressed in a compelling way) that conflict with my views. I might not agree with the conclusions drawn, but I'll consider them. I just agreed with a reply I saw from Tox, a contributor with whom I've often disagreed. If you haven't noticed (and I wouldn't blame you if not, since I doubt you give much thought to my posting history anyway), very, very rarely is a response to my posts based on anything but ad hominem attacks. For me, it's the reality of those who think that Kobe's mythology is beyond reproach. You just did it yourself. Nothing was offered beyond a scolding.

So as I just said, I'm not closed to a constructive discussion re: my views if they differ with those of anyone else ... but I'm not open to emojis, forceful positions based on feelings, and the like. Check the record, if you'd like ... that's always been the case with me. I take the time and put forth the effort to justify my views with underlying fact, detail and record-based conclusions. In response, I see wave after wave of hyperbolic feelings and tried-and-true lashing-out for my failure to just swallow whole a narrative that I happen to find deeply flawed. Oh, well ... I've learned to expect nothing less.

As for the strawman argument you just floated re: kicking asses and "over-the-top" attitudes ... I've never once intimated anything approaching the former. And as for the latter, I bring facts (lots of them) and conclusions based on those facts. If that's "over-the-top" for you, I don't know what to tell you ...

But if you want to test the thesis, feel free to give me your best shot re: any of the positions I've taken in this thread (or any other). I'm open to hearing your views, but I'm old enough to doubt you'll take me up on that offer. Few who take your stance ever bring anything in response but their feelings, the memories their confirmation bias have fortified, outlandishly false claims, and youtube highlight videos to validate their positions.

Anyway, that's my two cents ...
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