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| Rank the Lakers Top 5 Worst Decisions Since 2010 |
| Nash/Howard Fiasco |
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17% |
[ 17 ] |
| Picking Mike D’Antoni Over Phil Jackson |
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38% |
[ 38 ] |
| Letting Gasol walk for nothing in return |
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15% |
[ 15 ] |
| Completely Breaking up the team in 2011 |
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6% |
[ 6 ] |
| Not Firing Jim Buss |
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5% |
[ 5 ] |
| Other |
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19% |
[ 19 ] |
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| Total Votes : 100 |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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 Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Ranking the Team’s Top 5 Worst Decisions Since 2010 |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Deep down, I think most fans know this. If you ask most fans whether they would have moved on from Kobe in 2011, if they knew it would put the team in better position in 2016 than if they don't, most would STILL say no. (I wouldn't necessarily blame them). After 2011, I don't think I could have said that and I'm considered round these parts a Kobe hater. |
I wouldn't blame them, either. Rebuilding sucks, and it isn't a sure thing. I don't blame the front office for trying to avoid going that route. Most teams would do the same thing. The problem is that sooner or later the chickens come home to roost.
The Lakers are a case in point. Most of us -- in fact, virtually all of us -- are glad that Kobe retired a Laker. Has that stopped many people from screaming bloody murder about the front office? |
Right. Totally agreed. |
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JerryMagicKobe
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Ranking the Team’s Top 5 Worst Decisions Since 2010 |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | Re-read my post from the perspective of Mitch Kupchak in 2011, which you set the table for by stating that he should have traded Kobe then. Given what Mitch knew at that moment in time, he could have done exactly what he did (and we know how that worked out) or he could have followed your advice and traded Kobe. What would that trade look like and what would have been the result? |
Why are you focused on that "moment in time"? I'm not some crazy message board absolutist arguing that Mitch was wrong to consider options other than the ruthless alternative. However, in the next "moment in time," Mitch knew that his plans for the CP3 trade were up in smoke. There wasn't a choice anymore.
What he actually did in the real world was sign Kapono, McRoberts, and Murphy, while trading Odom to the Mavs for a blah draft pick. This was followed by a variety of stop gap moves (Sessions, etc.), as we methodically unloaded all of our draft picks.
This was the real world alternative. The CP3/Howard plan was already up in smoke. |
Thanks for clarifying your timeline.
Help me understand the rest.
In the wake of the CP3 veto,
with Odom and Pau none too pleased in finding out they were traded,
and with all of our potential trading partners watching us squirm while Odom melts down and Pau shuts down,
Mitch should have exercised the nuclear option and traded Kobe?
Can you give me a rough sketch of what kind of trade you are envisioning? |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12674
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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The two draft pick moves the Lakers made that year weren't all that bad.
They jettisoned Walton's contract and a pick for Ramon Sessions. Sessions was a 25 year old player who had shown a lot of promise in spurts where he was given the starting position. Unfortunately he disappeared in the playoffs, and the Lakers went in another direction.
The other move was jettisoning Fisher's contract and a pick for what was originally going to be Michael Beasley but when that fell apart they scrambled and obtained Jordan Hill at the last minute.
At the time those moves were made Fisher couldn't guard anyone any more, and was shooting 38% from the field and 32% from beyond the arc. We all love what he brought over the years, but they felt their point guard of the future would be Sessions. Walton had been done for years. Jordan Hill worked out imo, Sessions did not and was replaced by Nash the following season. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ramon Sessions was great the first 2 weeks until Mike Brown told him to slow down.
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dcarter4kobe
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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The way I always looked at it. We traded 3 1st round draft picks and 2 2nd round draft picks and got nothing to show for it (Nash and Sessions). Not to mention all those other years we got rid of our 1st round draft picks for cap relief
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it's really fair to combine the Nash and Sessions picks together since 4 of those 5 picks were from the Nash trade, which was a reasonable gamble at the time. Nash still being an All-Star at that point. Nash had averaged just missing 4 games per season over the previous 5 years, so despite his age it seemed like a risk worth taking at that point.
Obviously it didn't work out with him breaking his leg to start the season and never recovering. But we can't focus just on the results after the fact, I think at the time it was a good gamble to try to eek another title out of that core.
The amazing thing to me is that if you go back to early the next year when it was obvious that Kobe and Nash were done, when Pau seemed disinterested and other teams didn't seem interested in trading for him, and you look at what the Lakers were facing at that point: If they made the playoffs they had no pick that season, with their first rounder being top 5 and top 3 protected over the next couple seasons, and with their best players after those guys at that time being Nick Young, Jodie Meeks, Steve Blake, and Jordan Hill... the fact that they have added Randle, Clarkson, Nance, Russell, Ingram, and Zubac to that roster is pretty amazing. They certainly would have liked to have fared better in free agency, but considering they are three years separated what was an epic disaster (essentially losing 3 All-Stars at once and getting ready to lose Pau soon), I like the position they are in moving forward. |
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dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:07 am Post subject: |
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I agree the Lakers have done a great job building a young solid foundation
1. ????
2. DLO
3. Ingram
4. Randle
5. Zubac
6. JC
7. Nance
8. Black
9. Brown
We just have to find a way to get that superstar.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | I agree the Lakers have done a great job building a young solid foundation
1. ????
2. DLO
3. Ingram
4. Randle
5. Zubac
6. JC
7. Nance
8. Black
9. Brown
We just have to find a way to get that superstar. |
I think the team will keep a max spot for 2017, but who is really a #1 option in that class? Blake Griffin?
I'm actually not opposed to punting that cap space to 2018 when PG13 is available. But until then, I think our #1 guy is going to be DLO.
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dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | I agree the Lakers have done a great job building a young solid foundation
1. ????
2. DLO
3. Ingram
4. Randle
5. Zubac
6. JC
7. Nance
8. Black
9. Brown
We just have to find a way to get that superstar. |
I think the team will keep a max spot for 2017, but who is really a #1 option in that class? Blake Griffin?
I'm actually not opposed to punting that cap space to 2018 when PG13 is available. But until then, I think our #1 guy is going to be DLO. |
Agree about punting, but in my mind I'm thinking of the team that will contend for rings. Can DLo be a #1 option on a title contending team? Only time will tell. I'm confident he can be that 2nd guy though putting up around 20/4/6 in a year or 2.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | I agree the Lakers have done a great job building a young solid foundation
1. ????
2. DLO
3. Ingram
4. Randle
5. Zubac
6. JC
7. Nance
8. Black
9. Brown
We just have to find a way to get that superstar. |
I think the team will keep a max spot for 2017, but who is really a #1 option in that class? Blake Griffin?
I'm actually not opposed to punting that cap space to 2018 when PG13 is available. But until then, I think our #1 guy is going to be DLO. |
Agree about punting, but in my mind I'm thinking of the team that will contend for rings. Can DLo be a #1 option on a title contending team? Only time will tell. I'm confident he can be that 2nd guy though putting up around 20/4/6 in a year or 2. |
I do think he can be a #1 guy, or at least a 1B.
I think Ingram can be the quintessential #2 guy on a championship team.
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Possibly. But we are dealing with projections here. Would rather play it conservative.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Ranking the Team’s Top 5 Worst Decisions Since 2010 |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Thanks for clarifying your timeline.
Help me understand the rest.
In the wake of the CP3 veto,
with Odom and Pau none too pleased in finding out they were traded,
and with all of our potential trading partners watching us squirm while Odom melts down and Pau shuts down,
Mitch should have exercised the nuclear option and traded Kobe?
Can you give me a rough sketch of what kind of trade you are envisioning? |
Again, I'm not some crazy message board absolutist. Did Mitch need to do this the day after the veto? Of course not. He could have done it after the season started, at the trade deadline, or even during the next summer. The point is that the front office could have cashed in on whatever value Kobe still had. Instead, it clung to Kobe and tried to bail out the situation by trading off draft picks.
What would the trade have looked like? That's just speculation, of course. We'd probably need to take a dud contract to make the numbers work. We'd probably get one functional player back. The key consideration would be getting some draft picks or maybe a young player.
You've seen these trades before. We've usually been the team coughing up the draft picks and young players, after all. Obviously, I can't tell you the parameters of a deal that never got negotiated. |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't think AH is necessarily saying the Lakers should have traded Kobe. I think he is simply saying that by holding on to him for as long as we did, it held us back from pursuing a longer term strategy sooner. Whether one feels it was worth it or not is irrelevant. (In retrospect, I think it was knowing what I know now).
Look, sometimes the decisions we make that feel good, aren't always the best decisions in other areas. Sometimes it's worth it. Having children is often a terrible financial investment, but it is a great emotional investment. But just because it feels nice doesn't preclude it from being a net negative financial investment, it just makes what you sacrificed feel worth it. |
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dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:59 am Post subject: |
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One of the biggest mistakes the Lakers made recently is not giving Bazemore the QO. Went from not offering a 1.0M QO to offering the guy 70M 2 seasons later. On the flip side, I doubt Bazemore would of looked as good in Byron's offense as he did in ATL
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Maybe it's just me, but I don't think AH is necessarily saying the Lakers should have traded Kobe. I think he is simply saying that by holding on to him for as long as we did, it held us back from pursuing a longer term strategy sooner. Whether one feels it was worth it or not is irrelevant. (In retrospect, I think it was knowing what I know now). |
That's correct. I'm not saying that the Lakers screwed up by keeping Kobe. Most sports organizations would have done that. I'm happy that Kobe retired a Laker, but then I am willing to accept the consequences that follow from that.
What I am saying is that all of the other stuff that people complain about is a consequence of the fact that the Lakers are not a brutal, cold blooded organization. You can complain about coaching decisions, Jim Buss, or whatever else. One way or another, all of those things are symptoms. Barring something shocking like Lebron signing with the Lakers, we were on a path that led . . . exactly where we are right now. In fact, we have been lucky. The ping pong balls could have flat out killed us. Seriously, think about it for a moment. We could have had a scenario in which we don't have Russell or Ingram.
Barring some improbable twist (which did not materialize), the only way we could have avoided the current state of affairs would have been to cash in Kobe for whatever we could get and start the rebuild three to four years earlier. I am not saying that we should have done that. I am saying that most of the stuff that people are complaining about really doesn't matter much. Yeah, we could have hired a better coach than Byron Scott, for example. We might have even won an extra game or two. |
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Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | Maybe it's just me, but I don't think AH is necessarily saying the Lakers should have traded Kobe. I think he is simply saying that by holding on to him for as long as we did, it held us back from pursuing a longer term strategy sooner. Whether one feels it was worth it or not is irrelevant. (In retrospect, I think it was knowing what I know now). |
That's correct. I'm not saying that the Lakers screwed up by keeping Kobe. Most sports organizations would have done that. I'm happy that Kobe retired a Laker, but then I am willing to accept the consequences that follow from that.
What I am saying is that all of the other stuff that people complain about is a consequence of the fact that the Lakers are not a brutal, cold blooded organization. You can complain about coaching decisions, Jim Buss, or whatever else. One way or another, all of those things are symptoms. Barring something shocking like Lebron signing with the Lakers, we were on a path that led . . . exactly where we are right now. In fact, we have been lucky. The ping pong balls could have flat out killed us. Seriously, think about it for a moment. We could have had a scenario in which we don't have Russell or Ingram.
Barring some improbable twist (which did not materialize), the only way we could have avoided the current state of affairs would have been to cash in Kobe for whatever we could get and start the rebuild three to four years earlier. I am not saying that we should have done that. I am saying that most of the stuff that people are complaining about really doesn't matter much. Yeah, we could have hired a better coach than Byron Scott, for example. We might have even won an extra game or two. |
| Quote: |
In fact, we have been lucky. The ping pong balls could have flat out killed us. Seriously, think about it for a moment. We could have had a scenario in which we don't have Russell or Ingram.
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Yes, things could have turned out much worse in regards to the first round draft picks.
It is possible that they could have moved down instead of up in the 2015 lottery drawing and then would have had to send the first round pick to Philadelphia.
Then dropped just one notch in the 2016 draft lottery and drafted somebody besides Ingram such as Dunn, Brown, Bender etc.
Since the first round obligation to Orlando wouldn't have been pushed back, Orlando would have had an opportunity at the 2017 first round pick. I am still looking for the initial details on the first round pick owed to Orlando.
Transactions: 2012-13 season
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Friday, Aug. 10
• Orlando sent center Dwight Howard, guard Chris Duhon and forward Earl Clark to the L.A. Lakers and guard Jason Richardson to Philadelphia. The Lakers sent center Andrew Bynum to Philadelphia and forward Josh McRoberts, forward Christian Eyenga and a 2017 first-round draft pick to Orlando. Philadelphia sent forward Andre Iguodala to Denver and forward Moe Harkless, center Nikola Vucevic and an undisclosed first-round draft pick to the Magic. Denver sent guard Arron Afflalo, forward Al Harrington and the lower of its 2014 first-round draft picks to the Magic.
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So far...
2015: Russell
2016: Ingram
2017: Perhaps keep first round pick and thus downgrade the first round pick owed to Orlando to second round picks.
What could have been...
2015: Pick sent to Philadelphia
2016: Brown or Bender or Dunn or ?
2017: Possibility of pick being sent to Orlando |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Obviously too difficult to project, but my own personal prediction is we will miss the playoffs for at least 4 years (4th being this year).
IMO, likely we miss a 5th in a row in 2017-18, but depending on trades, FA (we have enough for a max deal), growth of young guys, we may have a fighting chance but most likely we will head into 2018-19 missing the playoffs 5 years in a row, something that is unprecedented.
Will the current FO, Jim Buss regime survive 5 years of non-playoffs? Who knows.
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | I agree the Lakers have done a great job building a young solid foundation
1. ????
2. DLO
3. Ingram
4. Randle
5. Zubac
6. JC
7. Nance
8. Black
9. Brown
We just have to find a way to get that superstar. |
I think the team will keep a max spot for 2017, but who is really a #1 option in that class? Blake Griffin?
I'm actually not opposed to punting that cap space to 2018 when PG13 is available. But until then, I think our #1 guy is going to be DLO. |
Gotta wonder if PG13 is going to do the same contract restructuring that Westbrook and Harden did. In real terms it adds one more year (and he gains an option on the year after but that'll almost certainly be exercised). If that's the case, George won't be a UFA until 2019. Though slotting in a max would still be possible in 2019. It's 2020 that I think that dream is dead. |
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pio2u
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Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 54623
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Obviously too difficult to project, but my own personal prediction is we will miss the playoffs for at least 4 years (4th being this year).
IMO, likely we miss a 5th in a row in 2017-18, but depending on trades, FA (we have enough for a max deal), growth of young guys, we may have a fighting chance but most likely we will head into 2018-19 missing the playoffs 5 years in a row, something that is unprecedented.
Will the current FO, Jim Buss regime survive 5 years of non-playoffs? Who knows. |
That's too depressing to even think about     |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | I agree the Lakers have done a great job building a young solid foundation
1. ????
2. DLO
3. Ingram
4. Randle
5. Zubac
6. JC
7. Nance
8. Black
9. Brown
We just have to find a way to get that superstar. |
I think the team will keep a max spot for 2017, but who is really a #1 option in that class? Blake Griffin?
I'm actually not opposed to punting that cap space to 2018 when PG13 is available. But until then, I think our #1 guy is going to be DLO. |
Gotta wonder if PG13 is going to do the same contract restructuring that Westbrook and Harden did. In real terms it adds one more year (and he gains an option on the year after but that'll almost certainly be exercised). If that's the case, George won't be a UFA until 2019. Though slotting in a max would still be possible in 2019. It's 2020 that I think that dream is dead. |
Yeah. I've repeatedly wondered the same. If he's off the table, we're in a bit of a quandary b/c some of our young guys will start coming up for extensions (Randle, DLO, and even Zubac down the line).
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Hector the Pup
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Obviously too difficult to project, but my own personal prediction is we will miss the playoffs for at least 4 years (4th being this year).
IMO, likely we miss a 5th in a row in 2017-18, but depending on trades, FA (we have enough for a max deal), growth of young guys, we may have a fighting chance but most likely we will head into 2018-19 missing the playoffs 5 years in a row, something that is unprecedented.
Will the current FO, Jim Buss regime survive 5 years of non-playoffs? Who knows. |
It all depends on how the team plays, playoffs or not. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Obviously too difficult to project, but my own personal prediction is we will miss the playoffs for at least 4 years (4th being this year).
IMO, likely we miss a 5th in a row in 2017-18, but depending on trades, FA (we have enough for a max deal), growth of young guys, we may have a fighting chance but most likely we will head into 2018-19 missing the playoffs 5 years in a row, something that is unprecedented.
Will the current FO, Jim Buss regime survive 5 years of non-playoffs? Who knows. |
It all depends on how the team plays, playoffs or not. |
So the whole Jim Buss "deadline" thing is dead now or what?
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Based on what Jeannie said, yes.
If they come out of this season playing an exciting brand of basketball with at least a majority of the kids showing growth and a clear direction moving forward, combined with a 15-20 game improvement in the win column, I don't see why they would make big changes in the FO. |
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yinoma2001
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Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | Based on what Jeannie said, yes.
If they come out of this season playing an exciting brand of basketball with at least a majority of the kids showing growth and a clear direction moving forward, combined with a 15-20 game improvement in the win column, I don't see why they would make big changes in the FO. |
I hope so. The last thing we need when we're recruiting FAs is more FO/ownership turmoil, though Phil Jax may be leaving NY soon.
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the association
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Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | I agree the Lakers have done a great job building a young solid foundation
1. ????
2. DLO
3. Ingram
4. Randle
5. Zubac
6. JC
7. Nance
8. Black
9. Brown
We just have to find a way to get that superstar. |
I think the team will keep a max spot for 2017, but who is really a #1 option in that class? Blake Griffin?
I'm actually not opposed to punting that cap space to 2018 when PG13 is available. But until then, I think our #1 guy is going to be DLO. |
Gotta wonder if PG13 is going to do the same contract restructuring that Westbrook and Harden did. In real terms it adds one more year (and he gains an option on the year after but that'll almost certainly be exercised). If that's the case, George won't be a UFA until 2019. Though slotting in a max would still be possible in 2019. It's 2020 that I think that dream is dead. |
Beyond the contractual considerations, I also don't see Paul George as the #1 guy on a championship team anyway. In head-to-head match-ups, I wouldn't have any confidence that he might consistently outplay the other top guys at the SF position in the NBA. The fact is, I just don't think he has the ability to compete with LeBron, Durant or Kawhi. And if your best player cannot compete (much less outplay) the top player on the team across the court from him, what are the chances a ring is actually within reach?
I wouldn't bank on George with the idea that he settles the roster for a title run ... |
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