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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
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 Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | So tox, magic/pelinka need to be fired according to you if they don't land PG13 AND LeBron!
Yet, you were cool with Mitch cratering the franchise, in fact on board with him right until he was put out to pasture?
Seems a bit inconsistent from here in the More Nuanced Observers Tower. |
1) When Mitch and Jim signed Mozgov and Deng, I was fine with their firing. Mitch didn't crater the franchise. He led a perfectly competent rebuild until the inexplicable $34M per year for four years wasted on Deng and Mozgov. After that, I was done supporting them.
2) I'm sorry but there's no rationale for dumping Russell to get rid of Mozgov unless you have something lined up in 2018. There's none. Zero. Zilch. Nada. It's a boneheaded, stupid move.
Now I actually believe Rob and Magic have a plan, and I do think it's to get both George and LeBron. And if that happens, I'll applaud them. That's how conditionals work. They should only be fired conditional on making a trade that ended up being pointless and setting the franchise back.
FYI, you should never associate yourself with the word nuance. |
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DanielKetch
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Joined: 23 Jun 2017
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="yinoma2001"] | Chase.button07 wrote: | | After cp3, I am eagerly waiting for Griffin to bolt |
http://i.imgur.com/gZWnkcN.jpg |
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Lakerz113
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Chase.button07 wrote: | GT you think we would have had a chance to even get meetings with LBJ or PG13 , let alone both?
the PG13 trade rumors started the day Magic was hired. |
With Jim & Mitch still here? Probably not. Weirdly, I think we'd have a better chance with LeBron than PG, because LeBron knows that he ultimately runs the show, but probably not.
I'm not pining for Mitch & Jim here. I'm just saying that things were going exactly as I hoped they would until the Mozgov & Deng contracts. Saying that they dragged this franchise through hell for 4 years doesn't ring true for me because we NEEDED to go through that hell to replenish the young talent. |
would have been easier if we got something for players that just left like howard and gasol. Celtics beat us on that one. |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: |
I'm sorry but there's no rationale for dumping Russell to get rid of Mozgov unless you have something lined up in 2018. There's none. Zero. Zilch. Nada. It's a boneheaded, stupid move.
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Time will tell. A lot of people think it was a very sage move to get rid of what was thought to be an unmovable contract.
| tox wrote: |
FYI, you should never associate yourself with the word nuance. |
Don't get mad at me for being right when you are wrong. Because that is pretty much every time basketball is being discussed!
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ahaider
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Chase.button07 wrote: | GT you think we would have had a chance to even get meetings with LBJ or PG13 , let alone both?
the PG13 trade rumors started the day Magic was hired. |
With Jim & Mitch still here? Probably not. Weirdly, I think we'd have a better chance with LeBron than PG, because LeBron knows that he ultimately runs the show, but probably not.
I'm not pining for Mitch & Jim here. I'm just saying that things were going exactly as I hoped they would until the Mozgov & Deng contracts. Saying that they dragged this franchise through hell for 4 years doesn't ring true for me because we NEEDED to go through that hell to replenish the young talent. |
I agree with GT.
Moz/Deng are fireable offenses. However, I thinking Jim/Mitch suffered from superficial analysis. They weren't likeable. Mitch is old and he can't sell. However, in the old CBA, he was a a master. Jim is a recluse. He pales compared to Jeannie's charisma. However, I agree with Dr. Buss, in that I do think he understand basketball opps more than he's given credit for. I think Jim knows significantly more about talent evaluation than Jeannie.
However Rob and Magic are much more relatable to players. Magic is all these guys idol and he is one of the original trailblazers for player to ownership. That means much more to Lebron. They have cache that Mitch/Jim did not.
Perception can be cruel.
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32
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Free Agency
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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^^
It was time for the old regime to go. Having said that, every Laker fan should be able to agree that Mitch had a wonderful run overall, that he was an extremely loyal soldier for this team, and we should certainly be appreciative of all he did for this franchise. The last couple of years couldn't have been easy for him personally, either, losing a daughter.
Mitch certainly has my respect and admiration. I'll remain mum on Jim. |
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Chase.button07
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Chase.button07 wrote: | GT you think we would have had a chance to even get meetings with LBJ or PG13 , let alone both?
the PG13 trade rumors started the day Magic was hired. |
With Jim & Mitch still here? Probably not. Weirdly, I think we'd have a better chance with LeBron than PG, because LeBron knows that he ultimately runs the show, but probably not.
I'm not pining for Mitch & Jim here. I'm just saying that things were going exactly as I hoped they would until the Mozgov & Deng contracts. Saying that they dragged this franchise through hell for 4 years doesn't ring true for me because we NEEDED to go through that hell to replenish the young talent. |
yup agreed thanks
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Chase.button07
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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any chance, if PG goes to boston, AB asks celtics to let him go to play for his ex agent in Rob?
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: |
Mitch and Jim made two major mistakes:
1) Not drafting/acquiring quality young talent through the 2000's, to carry the Lakers forward into the 2010's in the same way that Kawhi took the torch from Duncan in San Antonio. They didn't have many of those picks, in part because of ownership, and most of them were later in the draft. They didn't do well here, but it wasn't a fireable offense, IMO. We've been bad the last few years because we got old, and we committed 35-40% of the salary cap to a Kobe Bryant who was a shell of himself...which was an organizational decision that went well beyond just Jim & Mitch.
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But wasn't Jim essentially in Magic's role and Mitch in Pelinka's role?
How can you give them a pass on the Kobe deal? It was obviously awful from Day 1 and bidding against themselves (a trademark in the Kupchakian Era)
| GoldenThroat wrote: |
2) The Mozgov & Deng contracts. This was a fireable offense, and they were ultimately canned soon thereafter.
But until then? They'd done a great job of restocking the team. This time a year ago, we had all of the young guys, Lou Williams on a cheap contract, and gobs of cap space. If we kick that can down the road just one more year, we woulda had a shot a LeBron, PG13, the full compliment of the young, talented guys, and had money to spare.
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It was fireable but it wasn't soon after.
I would argue they did a terrible job restocking the team. The young guys included multiple draft misses (Mitch's strength?) and they had no chance at LeBron, PG13 or any of the guys in play now under Jim/Mitch.
Or would you argue that?
| GoldenThroat wrote: |
Rob & Magic's position is very different than we were in at the beginning of this 4 year run, with an old roster & no championship prospects. 2014-2017 were very, very necessary in restocking the cupboard. |
Yes, Rob and Magic's position is very different than four years ago...in part because Mitch/Jim did so poor of a job that they left the team not only talent bereft with no cohesion but also had a weak organization with little respect around the league.
You of course are going to "restock" the cupboard a bit when you are a bottom 5 team year after year which is what we have become.
The team has way more hope than they did 12 months ago in most impartial observers eyes. I think it is obvious a change needed to be made and the needle is pointing up. Let's enjoy it!
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | | tox wrote: |
I'm sorry but there's no rationale for dumping Russell to get rid of Mozgov unless you have something lined up in 2018. There's none. Zero. Zilch. Nada. It's a boneheaded, stupid move.
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Time will tell. A lot of people think it was a very sage move to get rid of what was thought to be an unmovable contract.
| tox wrote: |
FYI, you should never associate yourself with the word nuance. |
Don't get mad at me for being right when you are wrong. Because that is pretty much every time basketball is being discussed! |
You've never had any nuance in your posts. Ever.
For example, you say it's a "sage move to get rid of what was thought to be an unmovable contract." But the premise of my post is that if we don't get two maxes (i.e. George and James) in 2018, then it's a stupid move. And yes it's true, because Mozgov's contract in 2019 is anything but immovable (1 year, $16M). That's the nuance of my argument, but it seems you've completely missed it. |
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Laker's Fan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | Chase.button07 wrote: | GT you think we would have had a chance to even get meetings with LBJ or PG13 , let alone both?
the PG13 trade rumors started the day Magic was hired. |
With Jim & Mitch still here? Probably not. Weirdly, I think we'd have a better chance with LeBron than PG, because LeBron knows that he ultimately runs the show, but probably not.
I'm not pining for Mitch & Jim here. I'm just saying that things were going exactly as I hoped they would until the Mozgov & Deng contracts. Saying that they dragged this franchise through hell for 4 years doesn't ring true for me because we NEEDED to go through that hell to replenish the young talent. |
Agree whole hardedly.
I would say is that one of Moz or Deng wasn't unforgivable. Not great, but especially in the case of Moz, they paid market. It was signing them both while ncluding guaranteed 4th years. They also timed heir cap space poorly. The year before or year after great. Cap space for a bottom dweller in 2016 was the worst possible planning.
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2019
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| pmacla wrote: | | Clarkson is so bright he is recruiting a guy that would take his spot and limit his minutes lol |
1 year deal for JJ and Collison? Do it, Rob.
Brook/Zu/Black/Bryant
Randle/Nance/Kuzma
Ingram/Deng
Reddick/Clarkson/Nwaba
Lonzo/Collison |
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RI Laker
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I like Mitch and I think he did a fine job in some areas. Obviously, his judgement was skewed because of Jimmy the moron. Keeping it real, Mitch was to complacent and not aggressive during free agency, did not get dirty during the time period (like every team does), and got buffalowed by some agents (whether it was giving extra years like Moz/Deng or being used as leverage by Agents for their clients with other teams). These are areas where Magic and RP will excel and I see us being big players in the next couple of years in terms of free agency. |
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panamaniac
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | ^^
It was time for the old regime to go. Having said that, every Laker fan should be able to agree that Mitch had a wonderful run overall, that he was an extremely loyal soldier for this team, and we should certainly be appreciative of all he did for this franchise. The last couple of years couldn't have been easy for him personally, either, losing a daughter.
Mitch certainly has my respect and admiration. I'll remain mum on Jim. |
Yep agree 100% |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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The Kobe deal was ownership decision i.e. Jeanie/Jim, not Mitch. That was obviously not in the best interests of the basketball team. They milked that cash cow to the last drop. Ainge in a similar position fleeced Brooklyn for every asset they had.
Mitch/Jim were in over their heads with their artificial timeline with the MozDeng contracts being the straw that broke the camel's back.
Magic and Pelinka are not off to a great start. Maybe they are tampering legit and have LeBron and PG lined up already.
If that doesn't happen Lakers are screwed. We could have traded Russell later in the year when his value would have been greater (Lonzo effect)
It is what it is. |
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67ShelbyGT
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| GoldenThroat wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | So tox, magic/pelinka need to be fired according to you if they don't land PG13 AND LeBron!
Yet, you were cool with Mitch cratering the franchise, in fact on board with him right until he was put out to pasture?
Seems a bit inconsistent from here in the More Nuanced Observers Tower. |
Mitch and Jim made two major mistakes:
1) Not drafting/acquiring quality young talent through the 2000's, to carry the Lakers forward into the 2010's in the same way that Kawhi took the torch from Duncan in San Antonio. They didn't have many of those picks, in part because of ownership, and most of them were later in the draft. They didn't do well here, but it wasn't a fireable offense, IMO. We've been bad the last few years because we got old, and we committed 35-40% of the salary cap to a Kobe Bryant who was a shell of himself...which was an organizational decision that went well beyond just Jim & Mitch.
2) The Mozgov & Deng contracts. This was a fireable offense, and they were ultimately canned soon thereafter.
But until then? They'd done a great job of restocking the team. This time a year ago, we had all of the young guys, Lou Williams on a cheap contract, and gobs of cap space. If we kick that can down the road just one more year, we woulda had a shot a LeBron, PG13, the full compliment of the young, talented guys, and had money to spare.
Rob & Magic's position is very different than we were in at the beginning of this 4 year run, with an old roster & no championship prospects. 2014-2017 were very, very necessary in restocking the cupboard. |
Disagree with #1. It was definitely a fireable offense. Lakers are premium franchise. Most bulge bracket firms do not let incompetency or complacency slide for 10+ years. You get fired long before. If we were Sterling's Clippers then yes maybe Jim/Mitch gets a pass. Mitch did make up for 2 major f-ups trades (Shaq, Kwame) with the Pau trade and subsequent minor trades. He also did start to draft well the past 3-4 years (not the top picks, I'm talking Nance, Zu, JC here). However, both were absolute laughingstock when it came to FA signings or giving out equitable contracts (e.g. Luke contract).
Kobe had an unusual arc to his career. Many transcendent stars struggle early, then get good teammates in their prime. Kobe was opposite, he was lucky to join a vet-laden team, which allowed him to get 3 rings before most stars do. Then again towards the tail-end of his prime and career, he also got good help in Pau/LO/Drew. But in between (2004-2008), FO wasted his prime prime years. Complacency. Spurs do an excellent job retooling with bad picks. Because they usually have the same bad picks Mitch got, they get creative. Think outside the box. Recruit internationally or underrated players. Stash a player in euro league for a year or two. If you're gonna work for a top franchise like the Lakers and have a once in a lifetime talent like Kobe, expectations are higher. Mitch/Jim simply lacked vision, balls, business acumen... they should've been fired long time ago.
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| 67ShelbyGT wrote: | | GoldenThroat wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | So tox, magic/pelinka need to be fired according to you if they don't land PG13 AND LeBron!
Yet, you were cool with Mitch cratering the franchise, in fact on board with him right until he was put out to pasture?
Seems a bit inconsistent from here in the More Nuanced Observers Tower. |
Mitch and Jim made two major mistakes:
1) Not drafting/acquiring quality young talent through the 2000's, to carry the Lakers forward into the 2010's in the same way that Kawhi took the torch from Duncan in San Antonio. They didn't have many of those picks, in part because of ownership, and most of them were later in the draft. They didn't do well here, but it wasn't a fireable offense, IMO. We've been bad the last few years because we got old, and we committed 35-40% of the salary cap to a Kobe Bryant who was a shell of himself...which was an organizational decision that went well beyond just Jim & Mitch.
2) The Mozgov & Deng contracts. This was a fireable offense, and they were ultimately canned soon thereafter.
But until then? They'd done a great job of restocking the team. This time a year ago, we had all of the young guys, Lou Williams on a cheap contract, and gobs of cap space. If we kick that can down the road just one more year, we woulda had a shot a LeBron, PG13, the full compliment of the young, talented guys, and had money to spare.
Rob & Magic's position is very different than we were in at the beginning of this 4 year run, with an old roster & no championship prospects. 2014-2017 were very, very necessary in restocking the cupboard. |
Disagree with #1. It was definitely a fireable offense. Lakers are premium franchise. Most bulge bracket firms do not let incompetency or complacency slide for 10+ years. You get fired long before. If we were Sterling's Clippers then yes maybe Jim/Mitch gets a pass. Mitch did make up for 2 major f-ups trades (Shaq, Kwame) with the Pau trade and subsequent minor trades. He also did start to draft well the past 3-4 years (not the top picks, I'm talking Nance, Zu, JC here). However, both were absolute laughingstock when it came to FA signings or giving out equitable contracts (e.g. Luke contract).
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Um, we won 5 titles and went to 7 Finals in the 2000's. |
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Cochese
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hiring Byron was a fireable offense, imo.
Back on topic: I don't think we are even going to get a meeting with Hayward. |
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CamReddish
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | LakerLanny wrote: | So tox, magic/pelinka need to be fired according to you if they don't land PG13 AND LeBron!
Yet, you were cool with Mitch cratering the franchise, in fact on board with him right until he was put out to pasture?
Seems a bit inconsistent from here in the More Nuanced Observers Tower. |
1) When Mitch and Jim signed Mozgov and Deng, I was fine with their firing. Mitch didn't crater the franchise. He led a perfectly competent rebuild until the inexplicable $34M per year for four years wasted on Deng and Mozgov. After that, I was done supporting them.
2) I'm sorry but there's no rationale for dumping Russell to get rid of Mozgov unless you have something lined up in 2018. There's none. Zero. Zilch. Nada. It's a boneheaded, stupid move.
Now I actually believe Rob and Magic have a plan, and I do think it's to get both George and LeBron. And if that happens, I'll applaud them. That's how conditionals work. They should only be fired conditional on making a trade that ended up being pointless and setting the franchise back.
FYI, you should never associate yourself with the word nuance. |
There absolutely is rational for dumping Russell. They didn't like his attitude and fit with the young guys. Didn't want that to rub off on Ingram and Lonzo. They didn't view or want him to lead thisbteam. They dumped a contract with him.
He was not drafted by them and they have the right to create their own roster. The players here before them are jot on them, the owed draft picks are not on them. They inherited debt and have not created any of their own yet. |
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Practice
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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If Magic and Pelinka don't get Lebron or PG then it's no different from when Jim and Mitch are in charge expect worse because we've heard those exact names as their big plan. We've had Jeanie talking to LeBron's agent and the whole PG saga including Magic comments so striking out will make them look bad. Right now it doesn't look like either of those are going our way.
At this point in time we have no reason to believe that Magic has had an effect on free agents and 2018 will be the test.
Last edited by Practice on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CamReddish
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| If they don't go after Hayward, it is a disservice to the team. Even if he doesn't sign here, you have to make an effort to get that type of player here. |
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Practice
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| PG13 wrote: | | If they don't go after Hayward, it is a disservice to the team. Even if he doesn't sign here, you have to make an effort to get that type of player here. |
From what we know Hayward is only meeting with Miami, Boston, and Utah. |
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CamReddish
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Practice wrote: | | PG13 wrote: | | If they don't go after Hayward, it is a disservice to the team. Even if he doesn't sign here, you have to make an effort to get that type of player here. |
From what we know Hayward is only meeting with Miami, Boston, and Utah. |
Well, Magic has some work to do. He was brought in to sell. |
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Practice
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| PG13 wrote: | | Practice wrote: | | PG13 wrote: | | If they don't go after Hayward, it is a disservice to the team. Even if he doesn't sign here, you have to make an effort to get that type of player here. |
From what we know Hayward is only meeting with Miami, Boston, and Utah. |
Well, Magic has some work to do. He was brought in to sell. |
They aren't going to go after anyone notable in this free agent class. The Lakers have their eyes set on PG and LeBron in 2018. |
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