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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Team salaries (not including luxury taxes) going into the season.
1. CLE $137.9M
2. GSW $135.4M
3. OKC $133.9M
4. WAS $126.1M
5. POR $122.2M
All the other owners have deep pockets. OKC playing a financial game that they can't sustain. |
Have no clue how OKC FO/ownership will handle the offers to those free agents or what they will be willing to spend to keep them. Likely they do not even know at this point.
But I I think you may be underestimating the "deep pockets" of OKC.
Bennett is the face of ownership and worth over $400M. But the Thunder are owned by an ownership group. No clue how much each member owns but it is loaded with oil and financial institution leaders. Including a new owner just a few years ago. According to the articles I found, a gentleman named Kaiser woth over $10 billion.
If OKC decided to compete for a couple years and pay the luxury taxes I'm guessing they can afford it. And considering it is likely a tax write-off for the organization there is even less of a downside. |
So is that why they didn't keep Harden over a few million/year?
Or that they were too stingy to just amnesty Perkins (didn't want to pay him not to play)?
Or that they rarely ever entered luxury tax territory?
Did he all of a sudden become a billionaire?
To me, this is a last ditch attempt to show WB that they're not going to nickle/dime him as recent OKC history has shown.
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scooterp10
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | epak wrote: | Haha. Well, what if okcs big 3 gives OKC a discount? Just like how we think players might give the Lakers a discount? 
I'm one of the few that doesn't even mind getting one superstar, if that superstar is LeBron. And re-sign the guys we have, since I think KCP and Julius are gonna be awesome this year. |
I agree....except for me it does not have to be Lebron. Any one of Lebron, PG13 or Westbrook and I would be excited...to pair with Ingram, Ball, and Randle.....then whatever fits with KCP and Lopez.....or even JC if he takes a big step this year. |
Didn't we have enough for a max with DLO/Moz still on the books (and assuming either trade/stretch Deng, move one of Jules/JC)? |
Well. Makes me think it was just as much to do with getting rid of D as it was to get rid of M's contract.
Good point on OKC going all in this year and perhaps just tanking if all 3 leave in 2018. The other thing is, once one of these guys, especially Melo gets another injury, OKC can be proactive and trade players during the season. |
Nobody wants to live in Oklahoma. I thought Blake Griffin might go home to the Thunder, but even the local boy jumped on CA. He never even gave them a meeting.
I think Presti flips all three for assets if they're not a top 3 team in the west by the trade deadline. No way a first round exit will be enough to convince George to live in Oklahoma longer then he has to. I could see Melo opting out and going to Houston and splitting salaries with Paul. It would be hard for Westbrook, as competitive as he is, to take the money knowing he'll never win anything. Presti can't let them go for nothing. |
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TheBlackMamba
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:57 am Post subject: |
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The bottom line is we're going to get a meeting with George next summer, and for the most part, that meeting (and all the buildup to it, cuz you know we ain't done tampering  ) along with how we fare with LBJ and other top FAs is going to determine whether he signs here.
We know two things - the first is that he really wanted to come home so badly a few months ago that he told Indy he's not re-signing there a full year in advance. Did that sentiment just magically go away? Doubtful, it's probably always been there. And it's still there, waiting for Magic and Rob to take advantage of. The second is that OKC is STILL not beating the Warriors. If they're not winning a championship AND their future is uncertain with Westbrook not extended yet and Melo's career winding down (without even getting into the strong potential for b-ball chemistry issues this season), then what's there to be scared about? KD left that same team when it was much better and held a 3-1 lead on those same Warriors in the WCF. Lebron left a Heat team that had just made the Finals for the 4th straight year. Hell, even Gordon Hayward just left a pretty damn good playoff contender in the Jazz. And all these guys spent their whole careers with those teams, but they still went where they wanted to go, which didn't always follow conventional wisdom. If George truly wants to come here, I really don't think OKC is going to hold him back, even if they're a good team this year. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Team salaries (not including luxury taxes) going into the season.
1. CLE $137.9M
2. GSW $135.4M
3. OKC $133.9M
4. WAS $126.1M
5. POR $122.2M
All the other owners have deep pockets. OKC playing a financial game that they can't sustain. |
Have no clue how OKC FO/ownership will handle the offers to those free agents or what they will be willing to spend to keep them. Likely they do not even know at this point.
But I I think you may be underestimating the "deep pockets" of OKC.
Bennett is the face of ownership and worth over $400M. But the Thunder are owned by an ownership group. No clue how much each member owns but it is loaded with oil and financial institution leaders. Including a new owner just a few years ago. According to the articles I found, a gentleman named Kaiser woth over $10 billion.
If OKC decided to compete for a couple years and pay the luxury taxes I'm guessing they can afford it. And considering it is likely a tax write-off for the organization there is even less of a downside. |
So is that why they didn't keep Harden over a few million/year?
Or that they were too stingy to just amnesty Perkins (didn't want to pay him not to play)?
Or that they rarely ever entered luxury tax territory?
Did he all of a sudden become a billionaire?
To me, this is a last ditch attempt to show WB that they're not going to nickle/dime him as recent OKC history has shown. |
Not arguing your points. Just pointing out some facts.
Harden was traded five years ago. Billionaire bought in in 2014.
Perhaps they will not go into luxury tax. Perhaps they will. The league has changed. If this roster works for them and they can be competitive perhaps they would be willing to now.
Similar to CLE and GS. Willing to go all-in for when the opportunity strikes. Lets see if the OKC team even gels and is competitive before either of us assume anything. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:02 am Post subject: |
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OKC has approached this the right way.
They're either going to contend for a championship or be in a position to completely rebuild in 2018.
But there is a huge amount of risk too, given the market location.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | OKC has approached this the right way.
They're either going to contend for a championship or be in a position to completely rebuild in 2018.
But there is a huge amount of risk too, given the market location. |
no matter what happens, that is for sure....they got rid of two bad contracts (Dipo and Kanter), and ended up with PG-13 and Melo on short deals! If it goes well, great....if it goes bad...still good! |
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epak
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: |
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OKC going after Wade too.
Nice! |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Not arguing your points. Just pointing out some facts.
Harden was traded five years ago. Billionaire bought in in 2014.
Perhaps they will not go into luxury tax. Perhaps they will. The league has changed. If this roster works for them and they can be competitive perhaps they would be willing to now.
Similar to CLE and GS. Willing to go all-in for when the opportunity strikes. Lets see if the OKC team even gels and is competitive before either of us assume anything. |
Who is the billionaire who bought the team? It's still primarily Clay Bennett. And it's not just a few million in luxury tax, it's nearly 80m+ in luxury tax on top of probably 140m+ in salaries.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | I don't get why any Lakers FAN would want wade outside of him being future cap space. LeBron isn't gonna make his decision based on Wade being here. He left Wade high and dry in Miami. |
Wade wouldn’t be future cap space
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | The Small Market Mafia.
Not a problem to trade PG13 for basically a salary dump by OKC.
OKC salary dumps Kanter (they've been trying to get rid of him) for Melo. Not a problem.
Gotta love it.
However, I think OKC is just going to be a 1 year waystation for WB/Melo/PG13.
I have a hard time seeing them:
1. re-sign all 3 (Melo has a ETO next year). I heard the luxury tax/repeater hits can be close to 80m if WB/PG13 get their max and Melo opts in. No way OKC is paying.
2. commit to long term deals to stay in OKC. I can totally understand going balls to the walls for 1 season though. |
Repeated taxes wouldn’t kick in until 2021. Hardly a worry now.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | AllorNothing wrote: | | Chad09 wrote: |
I would feel the same way at this moment in time if I was him also. This team
is light years better than his pacers squad. |
How does Paul George know anything about championship team. 
He's going to be begging to play for the Lakers next year with LEbron on our team. |
feel like there are likely going to be a lot of heartbroken Laker fans next offseason.... |
Not this one. Either we sign a top FA or we develop our youth. I am good.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Not arguing your points. Just pointing out some facts.
Harden was traded five years ago. Billionaire bought in in 2014.
Perhaps they will not go into luxury tax. Perhaps they will. The league has changed. If this roster works for them and they can be competitive perhaps they would be willing to now.
Similar to CLE and GS. Willing to go all-in for when the opportunity strikes. Lets see if the OKC team even gels and is competitive before either of us assume anything. |
Who is the billionaire who bought the team? It's still primarily Clay Bennett. And it's not just a few million in luxury tax, it's nearly 80m+ in luxury tax on top of probably 140m+ in salaries. |
the original owners were Clayton I. Bennett, Aubrey McClendon, George Kaiser, G. Jeffrey Records, Jr., William Cameron, Robert Howard II, Jay Scaramucci, and Everett Dobson.....and Aubrey McClendon owned the largest share @ 20%.....but he died a few years ago. I assume someone bought his shares after his death? I am pretty sure Bennett only serves as Chairman of the group (The Professional Basketball Club, LLC), but owns a relatively small % (around 10%?) of the team.
Reports are Bennett's entire net worth is only $400 Million....I would assume the team is worth more than a Billion dollars by itself. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | OKC going after Wade too.
Nice! |
I will be more then happy if Wade goes to OKC and everyone starts to act like there the main guy on the team, so I won't be upset with the Thunder imploding and the Lakers having a better chance to get PG13. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | The Small Market Mafia.
Not a problem to trade PG13 for basically a salary dump by OKC.
OKC salary dumps Kanter (they've been trying to get rid of him) for Melo. Not a problem.
Gotta love it.
However, I think OKC is just going to be a 1 year waystation for WB/Melo/PG13.
I have a hard time seeing them:
1. re-sign all 3 (Melo has a ETO next year). I heard the luxury tax/repeater hits can be close to 80m if WB/PG13 get their max and Melo opts in. No way OKC is paying.
2. commit to long term deals to stay in OKC. I can totally understand going balls to the walls for 1 season though. |
Repeated taxes wouldn’t kick in until 2021. Hardly a worry now. |
If so, then the 80m in luxury taxes sure are.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Thugnomoe wrote: | yeah.. I don't see them resigning all 3. that's way too much money.
Melo will bolt.. for a bigger market. |
Melo is the most likely to stay....he is not getting that money on the open market if he opts out. |
Gilbert has deep pockets to absorb a staggering repeater/luxury tax bill; Clay Bennett let Harden go over a few million a year.
No doubt they're going all in right, partly to try to convince WB that they're not going to be cheap. But when the 80m+ bill (not salary but luxury taxes) comes to Clay, he will likely shrivel up. |
If they are $20 mil over the tax limit then the tax would be about half of that, around $35 mil.
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Not arguing your points. Just pointing out some facts.
Harden was traded five years ago. Billionaire bought in in 2014.
Perhaps they will not go into luxury tax. Perhaps they will. The league has changed. If this roster works for them and they can be competitive perhaps they would be willing to now.
Similar to CLE and GS. Willing to go all-in for when the opportunity strikes. Lets see if the OKC team even gels and is competitive before either of us assume anything. |
Who is the billionaire who bought the team? It's still primarily Clay Bennett. And it's not just a few million in luxury tax, it's nearly 80m+ in luxury tax on top of probably 140m+ in salaries. |
the original owners were Clayton I. Bennett, Aubrey McClendon, George Kaiser, G. Jeffrey Records, Jr., William Cameron, Robert Howard II, Jay Scaramucci, and Everett Dobson.....and Aubrey McClendon owned the largest share @ 20%.....but he died a few years ago. I assume someone bought his shares after his death? I am pretty sure Bennett only serves as Chairman of the group (The Professional Basketball Club, LLC), but owns a relatively small % (around 10%?) of the team.
Reports are Bennett's entire net worth is only $400 Million....I would assume the team is worth more than a Billion dollars by itself. |
Kaiser was the name mentioned as buying into the ownership group in 2014 in the articles found. Here is one:
http://www.nba.com/thunder/corporatenews/kaiser_140418
My point is we have no clue how others choose to spend their money. And please correct me if I am wrong but all the luxury taxes spent are tax deductible as a business expense to the organization.
Even the Lakers have some billionaires as part of the ownership group. The Buss Trust may be the primary owner but the pockets get deep.
Haven't there been countless pages speculating the Lakers will be willing to go deep into the luxury tax if they land three or even two of the max free agents next year.
Maybe I'm cynical but I have a feeling the owners are not overly concerned with losing money if they are paying for a competing team. Despite the stories of GS luxury taxes climbing over the $100m range they are not moving salary or players. They are riding it out for a couple seasons despite the cost. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Thugnomoe wrote: | yeah.. I don't see them resigning all 3. that's way too much money.
Melo will bolt.. for a bigger market. |
Melo is the most likely to stay....he is not getting that money on the open market if he opts out. |
Gilbert has deep pockets to absorb a staggering repeater/luxury tax bill; Clay Bennett let Harden go over a few million a year.
No doubt they're going all in right, partly to try to convince WB that they're not going to be cheap. But when the 80m+ bill (not salary but luxury taxes) comes to Clay, he will likely shrivel up. |
If they are $20 mil over the tax limit then the tax would be about half of that, around $35 mil. |
Nate Duncan broke down the likely salary and resultant tax bills for 2018 if all 3 stay. That's his breakdown.
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2019
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| officially starting to feel worried about PG in OKC |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | The bottom line is we're going to get a meeting with George next summer, and for the most part, that meeting (and all the buildup to it, cuz you know we ain't done tampering ) along with how we fare with LBJ and other top FAs is going to determine whether he signs here. |
That’s really the bottom line. All these top guys are all about having the power and flexibility. Today’s stars are not interested in locking up long-term and so we will see how the NBA landscape changes in summer 2018.
Agree on Presti’s great job. At a minimum; he flips these guys, accelerates rebuild and gets credit like Ainge for such a quick turnaround. |
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anth2000
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:12 am Post subject: |
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I am not worried...if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. All I know is the Lakers will still get a superstar or two next summer and all will be fine.
| 2019 wrote: | | officially starting to feel worried about PG in OKC |
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2019
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| anth2000 wrote: | I am not worried...if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. All I know is the Lakers will still get a superstar or two next summer and all will be fine.
| 2019 wrote: | | officially starting to feel worried about PG in OKC |
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If it doesn't happen.. what's the plan? We just traded a stud young guard for cap space that the guy we thought we had in the bag was going to take.
It's major issue if PG and WB stay in OKC. What becomes LeBron's plan then? team with Cousins and keep Julius?
Not a great feeling but we have 8 months for things to change. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | | anth2000 wrote: | I am not worried...if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. All I know is the Lakers will still get a superstar or two next summer and all will be fine.
| 2019 wrote: | | officially starting to feel worried about PG in OKC |
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If it doesn't happen.. what's the plan? We just traded a stud young guard for cap space that the guy we thought we had in the bag was going to take.
It's major issue if PG and WB stay in OKC. What becomes LeBron's plan then? team with Cousins and keep Julius?
Not a great feeling but we have 8 months for things to change. |
This was why i wanted to trade for PG13.
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laker50
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:46 am Post subject: |
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PG has said that winning is much more important than going to LA.
But this is the case with all the superstars including KD.
But if LA can come close to the playoffs next year, there can
only be good things coming.
Just don't make the fatal mistakes that Jim and Mitch did
burying the Lakers for awhile. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| 2019 wrote: | | anth2000 wrote: | I am not worried...if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. All I know is the Lakers will still get a superstar or two next summer and all will be fine.
| 2019 wrote: | | officially starting to feel worried about PG in OKC |
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If it doesn't happen.. what's the plan? We just traded a stud young guard for cap space that the guy we thought we had in the bag was going to take.
It's major issue if PG and WB stay in OKC. What becomes LeBron's plan then? team with Cousins and keep Julius?
Not a great feeling but we have 8 months for things to change. |
Well, if you told me that by the summer:
1. CP3 traded
2. Hayward gone
3. Irving traded
4. Melo traded
5. PG13 traded...
I think 1 year is an eternity. And if Plan A falls, there will be other plans. I do believe in Magic's ability to bring stars in.
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kentu_tiro
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | OKC has approached this the right way.
They're either going to contend for a championship or be in a position to completely rebuild in 2018.
But there is a huge amount of risk too, given the market location. |
Gut tells me it's the latter. While good on paper, that is not a championship team. And them being a small market team, I am not sure how willing the owners are to keep paying the tax.
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