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pjiddy
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
Posts: 29057
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 Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Deng is helping us win? |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17674
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Deng is helping us win? |
Veteran leadership.
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Luol Deng is not helping us win any games, nor is he luring any free agents. |
This is exactly right. It would be one thing if Deng were overpaid at $18MM a year but was actually a player helping us win. But he's literally been below replacement-level. I do think that he could play a little better if he were at the 4 for most of his minutes, but that isn't going to happen on this team. If there is a chance to trade him and get two years of salary relief, I just don't understand why we wouldn't jump at that. If we could expand the deal to where we give them Lou and get a guy like WCS, even better. I'd rather have WCS for $3.7MM next season than, say, Noel at $15-20MM. |
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ChickenStu
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Deng is helping us win? |
Veteran leadership. |
That's fine when it's MWP and it's the last guy on your roster type of thing, costing you almost nothing on your cap. It's another matter altogether when you're making $18MM. |
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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Deng is helping us win? |
helping us win the hearts and minds of those who quit watching the NBA in 2010.  |
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Daphanabe
Star Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2768
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Deng is helping us win? |
Veteran leadership. |
That's fine when it's MWP and it's the last guy on your roster type of thing, costing you almost nothing on your cap. It's another matter altogether when you're making $18MM. |
He's joking. dcarter is one of the biggest critics of the MozDeng contracts. Every time we mention how bad those contracts were, people use the 'veteran leadership' tag to excuse it away. |
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BIKinstonFan
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Joined: 14 Jan 2017
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Lakers FO is like no child Left behind
They are just 2 step slower then the entire nba but you have to include them in current can like MJ |
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Robster8989
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Joined: 30 Dec 2014
Posts: 1025
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Luol Deng is not helping us win any games, nor is he luring any free agents. |
This is exactly right. It would be one thing if Deng were overpaid at $18MM a year but was actually a player helping us win. But he's literally been below replacement-level. I do think that he could play a little better if he were at the 4 for most of his minutes, but that isn't going to happen on this team. If there is a chance to trade him and get two years of salary relief, I just don't understand why we wouldn't jump at that. If we could expand the deal to where we give them Lou and get a guy like WCS, even better. I'd rather have WCS for $3.7MM next season than, say, Noel at $15-20MM. |
Yes, the point is it's really just not working, and we'd be getting 2 assets (the first being WCS, a young player who fills a major need and is on a friendly contract, and the second being the cap space sooner). At this point in his career and in today's league, Deng needs to play the 4, and unless we make room for him by moving JR or Nance, I just don't see the PT there. WCS could be a great, long term fit with our young core, and the cap could be used down the road on a better fit and better asset. Deng is not an asset at this point. Poor fit combined with a bad contract = no asset.
For Sac, they have room to play Deng at the 4, and they get a scorer in Lou, and for a team who just moved into a new building and really has a chance to make a push for the playoffs (not to mention a team who just lost Gay for the season), giving up WCS, who is out of the rotation, may make sense.
I think it would be a good trade for both teams potentially.
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Daphanabe
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Joined: 24 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Is there an actual source on this or speculation? (Have lost track)
If this is in any way real, I'll be the one of the happiest men alive. Unloading Deng's contract and then getting WCS. I'll take back some of the bad things I've said about our FO. |
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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Deng is helping us win? |
Then Deng doesn't have to be moved. You'd only do so for a guy who will never play and effectively move Metta into having consistent minutes if you're afraid Deng is going to cost the tank dreams.
Anyway, the entire team for the most part has had a bad stretch of the last 5 games after a solid start to January and a solid close to December. In fact, December was Deng's best and most productive Month so far, where he gave us 10 points on 45% from the field and 35% from three.
So he most definitely wasn't the problem in December.
Then when we started January 3-2 and he had big games vs Miami, Orlando, and Portland, then people saw him as essentially turning the corner after a slow start after his solid december and good start to January during our run of production.
But he's had a bad last 4 games and people want to try to fall back to "Oh Deng is doing nothing but collecting checks/not helping us at all" mode.
How fickle, and typical, unfortunately. But that's all it really takes for some people that are waiting on it so they can toot the same horn. But you can go ahead and act like Deng is the reason we were losing games in December and like his 10 on 45/35 didn't help us at all and see how far it gets you.
There's a team-wide problem that doesn't rest on Luol Deng's shoulders primarily like some want to act like it should and point to his contract as a reason and a weak argument.
If people are on this "Well because of his contract he should be carrying us to wins or single handedly be the one that moves the needle for us!"
yet they complain about what Lou does when he's on a bargain contract.
The way this 'point' is attempted to be made you'd make it sound like we should be running the offense through Deng and Mozgov cause we had to pay them so much just to get them to come here. Obviously cause they're superstars and not because our team was so bad we had to pay in order to get even THAT amount of talent to say yes to being here.
But it could never be that right?
Moz and Deng are here as the veterans and guys who will be able to do their jobs as asked of them, no one is going to legitimately ask Deng to be THE REASON this team wins or loses as no one in their right mind would try to make that argument, what we want from him is essentially to be productive, which he was all of December but that's easily sweeped under the rug and now it's acted as if he either doesn't help at all or if he isn't the sole reason whether we win or lose he shouldn't be on this team, cause 'contract'. 
If you or any other think is fixated that or trying to make it your point, your focus is in the wrong place. |
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BIKinstonFan
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Joined: 14 Jan 2017
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Some fans haven't learned there lesson "trade Deng for Gay so we can lose more". Tsk Tsk Tsk.
If you haven't learned from the last 3 off seasons ad free agency, you never will. And given most of the impatience around here its astounding that some really wanna keep playing the "bottom 3 pick" game. It's addictive, as is desperately searching for comfort in losing cause some can't deal. |
Deng is helping us win? |
Then Deng doesn't have to be moved. You'd only do so for a guy who will never play and effectively move Metta into having consistent minutes if you're afraid Deng is going to cost the tank dreams.
Anyway, the entire team for the most part has had a bad stretch of the last 5 games after a solid start to January and a solid close to December. In fact, December was Deng's best and most productive Month so far, where he gave us 10 points on 45% from the field and 35% from three.
So he most definitely wasn't the problem in December.
Then when we started January 3-2 and he had big games vs Miami, Orlando, and Portland, then people saw him as essentially turning the corner after a slow start after his solid december and good start to January during our run of production.
But he's had a bad last 4 games and people want to try to fall back to "Oh Deng is doing nothing but collecting checks/not helping us at all" mode.
How fickle, and typical, unfortunately. But that's all it really takes for some people that are waiting on it so they can toot the same horn. But you can go ahead and act like Deng is the reason we were losing games in December and like his 10 on 45/35 didn't help us at all and see how far it gets you.
There's a team-wide problem that doesn't rest on Luol Deng's shoulders primarily like some want to act like it should and point to his contract as a reason and a weak argument.
If people are on this "Well because of his contract he should be carrying us to wins or single handedly be the one that moves the needle for us!"
yet they complain about what Lou does when he's on a bargain contract.
The way this 'point' is attempted to be made you'd make it sound like we should be running the offense through Deng and Mozgov cause we had to pay them so much just to get them to come here. Obviously cause they're superstars and not because our team was so bad we had to pay in order to get even THAT amount of talent to say yes to being here.
But it could never be that right?
Moz and Deng are here as the veterans and guys who will be able to do their jobs as asked of them, no one is going to legitimately ask Deng to be THE REASON this team wins or loses as no one in their right mind would try to make that argument, what we want from him is essentially to be productive, which he was all of December but that's easily sweeped under the rug and now it's acted as if he either doesn't help at all or if he isn't the sole reason whether we win or lose he shouldn't be on this team, cause 'contract'.
If you or any other think is fixated that or trying to make it your point, your focus is in the wrong place. |
Sorry brotha but writing too many words didn't mean your are correct |
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LaxT
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Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 2536
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | LaxT wrote: | | Robster8989 wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | If we could somehow coax the Kings into taking on Deng and Lou for Gay and WCS, I'm not that concerned with the contract we get back from the Kings, assuming it's not someone that would still be getting paid beyond next season. The key for us here would be two years of salary cap relief, and, in this case, also getting a prospect who still, IMO, has a chance in WCS. (And one who offers a nice contrast to Zubac's skills.)
McLemore expires after next season, so if that is what they insisted on, I don't think we could quibble with it. He's at just a tick over $4MM this season, so $25MM outgoing and $21MM incoming is pretty close to matching. |
I agree. McLemore just makes the money work and expires anyway.
The pros are we get out of the Deng mistake sooner, even if Gay does opt in next year, AND we get WCS (and you're right, I love the idea of a WCS/Zubac tandem at the 5 long term).
I actually think Deng still has some good play left in his career. He just needs to play at the 4, and we are too deep there with JR/Nance. |
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | ya'll are asking for a pick?
They'd be saving our asses by taking Deng off our hands and books... WCS, Afflalo, Filler is plenty.
I'd be willing to attach both 2nd rounders we got for Calderon TBH. |
Yeah, that wouldn't be a good idea. And the Lakers aren't looking for someone to take Deng off their hands, they only make the deal if it makes sense. |
Agree. Find a team who can use him as a four. That's how the FO gets value back instead of making themselves look like a fool. |
We simply disagree on the value of Deng. It's one of the worst contracts in the league, and it has 3 more years on it after this one. If you can get two years of free salary relief, how do you not take that? It's not like we're going to contend next season, so even if Gay never takes the court for us, I personally don't care. And he most likely would at some point next season anyway, and he's better than Deng, pretty inarguably. The entire point is ridding ourselves of an insanely horrific contract for two seasons. I don't care how great of a guy Deng is. It is ridiculously bad business to have a contract on the books for $18MM a year for a guy who is below replacement-level. You don't pay a guy $18MM a year to be a mentor.
Would we still give Deng a 4 year, $72MM deal? Of course not. |
I can see your perspective. Just not sure the FO would agree. That is why I try to find a third team who might value Deng and could give SAC somebody (Rubio) they like.
I also feel sorry for Gay. His game will not be the same when he comes back, and SAC will not be able to find a taker for him mid season next year. He is nothing more than a salary filler right now. SAC would like to ship him out more than the Lakers do with Deng.
SAC got my attention because suddenly one of their assets turns into debt,
and Gay has an ideal contract (large but short) to match with Deng's. However,if the Lakers do a pure salary dump right now, it would be a slap on their own face. Luke and Mitch also put an emphasis on team chemistry. More likely they try to trade one of Deng/Moz in summer. |
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Palin
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Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 1808
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:46 am Post subject: |
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We all know we are not a draw for big name free agents and this FA class not good enough too. I think we should get some veteran who has 1 year left on their contract.
I think CP3 may go to Spurs this summer if Spurs can able to trade Parker. We can get Parker and he would be perfect mentor for Clarkson. He would help as a veteran who is a multiple champ coming from a great system. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Daphanabe wrote: | Is there an actual source on this or speculation? (Have lost track)
If this is in any way real, I'll be the one of the happiest men alive. Unloading Deng's contract and then getting WCS. I'll take back some of the bad things I've said about our FO. |
Just an idea I made up that would make some sense for both sides.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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Inspector Gadget
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Joined: 18 Apr 2016
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Daphanabe wrote: | Is there an actual source on this or speculation? (Have lost track)
If this is in any way real, I'll be the one of the happiest men alive. Unloading Deng's contract and then getting WCS. I'll take back some of the bad things I've said about our FO. |
From my own perspective, I believe other Organizations value Deng as a person and somewhat as a player, he knows how to adjust when he struggles, based on my view I think teams don't really care about taking on bad contracts.,especially considering that the new CBA isn't gonna allow teams to sign superstars, so taking chances on former all stars like Deng who might have something left might make sense especially for teams who need to make a playoff push.
Of course that's my speculation but even if Deng isn't traded I will more then gladly support him to succeed as a Laker. |
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ChickenStu
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:59 am Post subject: |
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^^
We need to stop doing business like this is a different era and we are awesome. I realize that we want to be a classy organization and that, ideally, we don't want to trade a person in the first year of a deal where we probably told him that we valued his leadership and play, all that. We need to run this organization in the best interest of the franchise, and I cannot imagine that we would've given him the contract that we did had we known that he would play this badly. Maybe we could trade Deng in the summer, and maybe not. My gut is that his contract is viewed as badly around the league as I think it is. If we could take advantage of a desperate team that is hell-bent on making the playoffs in order to placate its mercurial star--a team that has just lost its second-leading scorer--I wouldn't want to wait for the possibility that a better deal could materialize in the summer. Because it may never materialize.
As I have said, if you could expand the deal to get WCS somehow, great. But I would do it just for the salary relief alone. I just think the contract is that onerous. Again, if he were at least contributing positively, I'd be OK with the overpay. But he's literally been below replacement-level, and I also happen to think he's older than his listed age, meaning I wonder where he'll be 2-3 years from now. Yes, the salary cap space hasn't helped us the last couple of years, but if we get better, it might in the summer of 2018. And Deng is probably not going to help us get better. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Here is my rough list of "Tiers" of FAs in 2017:
Tier 1: KD, Curry, etc. No shot. 0% chance.
Tier 1B: basically Hayward. Doubt it. 3%
Tier 2: Ibaka, Jrue, Noel (RFA), G.Hill. With the first 2 guys, some shot and rationale for pursuing them. 25% chance.
Tier 3: Livingston, Patterson, Taj. 45% chance.
Tier 4: Justin Holiday, Ian Clark, etc. Greater than 50% chance.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: |
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What do folks think about JaMychal Green? IIRC he's an unrestricted FA this summer.
Shooting 38% from 3s on 2 attempts a game. I guess the impediment is he's a PF (about 6'9, 225).
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BIKinstonFan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Here is my rough list of "Tiers" of FAs in 2017:
Tier 1: KD, Curry, etc. No shot. 0% chance.
Tier 1B: basically Hayward. Doubt it. 3%
Tier 2: Ibaka, Jrue, Noel (RFA), G.Hill. With the first 2 guys, some shot and rationale for pursuing them. 25% chance.
Tier 3: Livingston, Patterson, Taj. 45% chance.
Tier 4: Justin Holiday, Ian Clark, etc. Greater than 50% chance. |
Tier 5: FA looking for retirement home. Lakers will sign somebody from tier 5 |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| BIKinstonFan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Here is my rough list of "Tiers" of FAs in 2017:
Tier 1: KD, Curry, etc. No shot. 0% chance.
Tier 1B: basically Hayward. Doubt it. 3%
Tier 2: Ibaka, Jrue, Noel (RFA), G.Hill. With the first 2 guys, some shot and rationale for pursuing them. 25% chance.
Tier 3: Livingston, Patterson, Taj. 45% chance.
Tier 4: Justin Holiday, Ian Clark, etc. Greater than 50% chance. |
Tier 5: FA looking for retirement home. Lakers will sign somebody from tier 5 |
Thank you for your wonderful insight and contribution.
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:57 am Post subject: |
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As we're not going anywhere for the next two seasons in terms of significant moves to be made. We're going to ride out these contracts as our youngsters develop, as the team shall go as they go and these years of growth are important to them so they'll be getting it. People can hate on the mentorship or veteran aspect of things all they want to but we're playing the long game. This isn't 2K.
So the Lakers have really no reason to defer from allowing their youngters grow for two more seasons along with the veterans remaining. They haven't won enough games to merit even assuming they have a shot at a difference making free agent. They will always be in the realm of a tier 3-4 free agent chase that they'll need to overpay to get here, till we start winning games on a consistent basis, and no magical free agent is going to be the reason that happens, the 3 young kids that are our core (Russell, Randle, Ingram) will be the reasons, so this team goes nowhere on a consistent basis till THEY become consistently reliable.
That's as clear as it is going to get. Just depends how long it takes some of the impatient to accept that. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | As we're not going anywhere for the next two seasons in terms of significant moves to be made. We're going to ride out these contracts as our youngsters develop, as the team shall go as they go and these years of growth are important to them so they'll be getting it. People can hate on the mentorship or veteran aspect of things all they want to but we're playing the long game. This isn't 2K.
So the Lakers have really no reason to defer from allowing their youngters grow for two more seasons along with the veterans remaining. They haven't won enough games to merit even assuming they have a shot at a difference making free agent. They will always be in the realm of a tier 3-4 free agent chase that they'll need to overpay to get here, till we start winning games on a consistent basis, and no magical free agent is going to be the reason that happens, the 3 young kids that are our core (Russell, Randle, Ingram) will be the reasons, so this team goes nowhere on a consistent basis till THEY become consistently reliable.
That's as clear as it is going to get. Just depends how long it takes some of the impatient to accept that. |
I'm hoping we get the ears of Tier 2 agents. But yeah, most likely Tier 3 and 4. Pretty astounding considering 3-4 years of cap hoarding basically will be Moz/Deng + 2017 likely Tier 3/4 FAs.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: |
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I'm still of the mindset that we need defensive minded players, ideally a stretch rim protector, a mobile rim protector that is 6'10 or above, and a combo guard who can hit the 3 and defend.
I would not assume Moz is an impediment to signing a better center; he is a sunk cost, nor would I consider Zubac the de facto starter (though by maybe year 3 he has a chance).
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BIKinstonFan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | BIKinstonFan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Here is my rough list of "Tiers" of FAs in 2017:
Tier 1: KD, Curry, etc. No shot. 0% chance.
Tier 1B: basically Hayward. Doubt it. 3%
Tier 2: Ibaka, Jrue, Noel (RFA), G.Hill. With the first 2 guys, some shot and rationale for pursuing them. 25% chance.
Tier 3: Livingston, Patterson, Taj. 45% chance.
Tier 4: Justin Holiday, Ian Clark, etc. Greater than 50% chance. |
Tier 5: FA looking for retirement home. Lakers will sign somebody from tier 5 |
Thank you for your wonderful insight and contribution. |
Hehe thank the Lakers as they currently have 2: deng/mozgov |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| BIKinstonFan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | BIKinstonFan wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Here is my rough list of "Tiers" of FAs in 2017:
Tier 1: KD, Curry, etc. No shot. 0% chance.
Tier 1B: basically Hayward. Doubt it. 3%
Tier 2: Ibaka, Jrue, Noel (RFA), G.Hill. With the first 2 guys, some shot and rationale for pursuing them. 25% chance.
Tier 3: Livingston, Patterson, Taj. 45% chance.
Tier 4: Justin Holiday, Ian Clark, etc. Greater than 50% chance. |
Tier 5: FA looking for retirement home. Lakers will sign somebody from tier 5 |
Thank you for your wonderful insight and contribution. |
Hehe thank the Lakers as they currently have 2: deng/mozgov |
So isn't the Tier 5 Retirement Home category ably filled already?
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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