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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:41 am    Post subject:

Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."
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Tony Anapolis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject:

richmorgan12 wrote:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
I know I will be hated for this, but I would do Clarkson/Randle/ Deng for Melo. And yes NY has the cap space to absorb the extra salary. I think it is a good deal for both teams. We get Melo and open up roughly 7 million of cap space this offseason.

Ball
DLO
Ingram
Melo
Moz

Try to tell me that team is not better then what we have. After signing Ball we still have roughly 23 million give or take in cap space. Bring in Sefalosha, resign Young, still should have some space.

Ball/?
DLo/Young
Ingram/Sefalosha/Brewer
Melo/Nance
Moz/Zubac

Maybe bring back Black just to see if we can trade? If not then we have max money this offseason.


The Lakers finally get rid of 36% shooting, no defense playing old Kobe and you want to get him back? And trade assets for him? Good grief.


You are probably someone who thinks Deng is more valuable, even then a old Melo. I don't believe that.

Kobe was a better defender at 38 then Ingram is right now for the record.
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Tony Anapolis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:44 am    Post subject:

I don't think PG has Dwight mentality. Man Dwight situation really has Laker fans tails between their legs. Jerry is rolling over in his grave right now.
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Chase.button07
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:45 am    Post subject:

Tony Anapolis wrote:
I know I will be hated for this, but I would do Clarkson/Randle/ Deng for Melo. And yes NY has the cap space to absorb the extra salary. I think it is a good deal for both teams. We get Melo and open up roughly 7 million of cap space this offseason.

Ball
DLO
Ingram
Melo
Moz

Try to tell me that team is not better then what we have. After signing Ball we still have roughly 23 million give or take in cap space. Bring in Sefalosha, resign Young, still should have some space.

Ball/?
DLo/Young
Ingram/Sefalosha/Brewer
Melo/Nance
Moz/Zubac

Maybe bring back Black just to see if we can trade? If not then we have max money this offseason.


We got rid of 1 chucker and u want to spend 2 good assets for an aging chucker?

No thanks
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Tony Anapolis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject:

Chase.button07 wrote:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
I know I will be hated for this, but I would do Clarkson/Randle/ Deng for Melo. And yes NY has the cap space to absorb the extra salary. I think it is a good deal for both teams. We get Melo and open up roughly 7 million of cap space this offseason.

Ball
DLO
Ingram
Melo
Moz

Try to tell me that team is not better then what we have. After signing Ball we still have roughly 23 million give or take in cap space. Bring in Sefalosha, resign Young, still should have some space.

Ball/?
DLo/Young
Ingram/Sefalosha/Brewer
Melo/Nance
Moz/Zubac

Maybe bring back Black just to see if we can trade? If not then we have max money this offseason.


We got rid of 1 chucker and u want to spend 2 good assets for an aging chucker?

No thanks


Its deeper then that, it's about saving cap space and making the team better in the long term. But if you feel like no defense Randle deserves a max then it is what it is?
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LakerSD
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


Becoming a perennial playoff team with a legit shot at the conference finals. If you trade a top 3 pick or Ingram/Russell for Paul George the lakers will be a habitual 7/8 seed in a good year and 10/11/12 in bad year.

Doesn't really make sense to be the west conference version of the pacers. Heck, PG13 wants to leave for THAT reason.
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Chase.button07
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:49 am    Post subject:

I do think it's a genuine catch-22 with PG13.

If you do not make a move for him this year: he likely stays on team (traded to a better team than us) that he is traded to b/c of $ + better team. Absolutely no guarantee he comes as a FA.

If we make a move for him: lose assets, small chance he leaves. But we also have his Bird rights, start to build team around him starting this offseason (when we will have last large cap space) rather than in 2018 when he is over 31m/year (which we will need pure cap space to sign him).
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:51 am    Post subject:

Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


Tail between legs? Come on man, not every player is Dwight Howard. Especially if the Lakers have cap space in 2018? This is why I said trade for Melo as well. He will be gone or disposed of by 2018, I believe it! And if we could get rid of Deng as well? We would have PG and be in cap heaven. I really don't know what people are talking about?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject:

Why does everyone assume if we traded #3 for George that would be only move we would make. I doubt that highly.
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richmorgan12
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:01 am    Post subject:

Tony Anapolis wrote:


You are probably someone who thinks Deng is more valuable, even then a old Melo. I don't believe that.

Kobe was a better defender at 38 then Ingram is right now for the record.


What I think of Deng is irrelevant. What's relevant is that, thankfully, what you propose will never, ever happen.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:10 am    Post subject:

Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


What happens if he stays? And we have continuity for once and a true core to build around?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


What happens if he stays? And we have continuity for once and a true core to build around?


Sure but why not just wait an year?
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject:

Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


What happens if he stays? And we have continuity for once and a true core to build around?


Sure but why not just wait an year?


Because it's a real possibility he may not be available in 2018 or as a true FA, consider other more ready-to-win teams. The bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (pun intended) may apply here.

Of course would LOVE for PG13 to join us as a FA in 2018, but to get there would require such a drastic do-nothing posture in 2017 FA-wise, which I don't think this new FO will do.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject:

Sorry to inform Laker fans apparently. If Magic is offered George for #3, I think he pulls the trigger with no hesitation. For better or worse.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject:

Tony Anapolis wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


Tail between legs? Come on man, not every player is Dwight Howard. Especially if the Lakers have cap space in 2018? This is why I said trade for Melo as well. He will be gone or disposed of by 2018, I believe it! And if we could get rid of Deng as well? We would have PG and be in cap heaven. I really don't know what people are talking about?


Top 3 is a heafty price for an expirer. U can go get Jimmy butler who has 2 years left and had been a much better player this year
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Tony Anapolis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


What happens if he stays? And we have continuity for once and a true core to build around?


Sure but why not just wait an year?


Because it's a real possibility he may not be available in 2018 or as a true FA, consider other more ready-to-win teams. The bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (pun intended) may apply here.

Of course would LOVE for PG13 to join us as a FA in 2018, but to get there would require such a drastic do-nothing posture in 2017 FA-wise, which I don't think this new FO will do.


Not only that, the do nothing approach doesn't look good to a player who wants to win.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject:

I just think both sides of the PG13 argument have valid points.

If the Lakers pass on trading for him this summer, then I wouldn't bet on PG13 being available as a FA in 2018. The $ and possible contending team may be too much to pass up on for him.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


What happens if he stays? And we have continuity for once and a true core to build around?


Sure but why not just wait an year?


Because it's a real possibility he may not be available in 2018 or as a true FA, consider other more ready-to-win teams. The bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (pun intended) may apply here.

Of course would LOVE for PG13 to join us as a FA in 2018, but to get there would require such a drastic do-nothing posture in 2017 FA-wise, which I don't think this new FO will do.


Which is totally fine. We go get somebody and build around DLO/Ingram/top 3 & have decent players in randle/Clarkson/Nance/zu/27th

That's 8 good young players
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject:

Tony Anapolis wrote:
Sorry to inform Laker fans apparently. If Magic is offered George for #3, I think he pulls the trigger with no hesitation. For better or worse.


We are both assuming what magic/Pelinka would do, I have no idea why your assumption has more validity against mine
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject:

Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


What happens if he stays? And we have continuity for once and a true core to build around?


Sure but why not just wait an year?


Because it's a real possibility he may not be available in 2018 or as a true FA, consider other more ready-to-win teams. The bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (pun intended) may apply here.

Of course would LOVE for PG13 to join us as a FA in 2018, but to get there would require such a drastic do-nothing posture in 2017 FA-wise, which I don't think this new FO will do.


Which is totally fine. We go get somebody and build around DLO/Ingram/top 3 & have decent players in randle/Clarkson/Nance/zu/27th

That's 8 good young players


Maybe, but that's not a likely playoff team in 2017-18.

It all comes down to how desperately the FO wants to be back in the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:44 am    Post subject:

Trade Deng to Orlando for Sacs 2nd round pick or their 2019 2nd round pick. They like doing weird trades.
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Tony Anapolis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject:

Chase.button07 wrote:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
Sorry to inform Laker fans apparently. If Magic is offered George for #3, I think he pulls the trigger with no hesitation. For better or worse.


We are both assuming what magic/Pelinka would do, I have no idea why your assumption has more validity against mine


It isn't. Never said that...Just saying, I believe almost any gm would do it. Magic strikes me as a confident dude. I think he would feel he is keeping pg long term. Scared money don't make money. Magic track record as a business man says he does it imo.
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Tony Anapolis
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject:

Chase.button07 wrote:
Tony Anapolis wrote:
Chase.button07 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Again, what is the definition of "moving the needle."

PG13 + 2 of the 3 top assets will be a playoff level team. That's moving the needle. We are not really in a championship or bust mentality at this point. With 5 years of non-playoffs staring at them next season, I gather that making the playoffs in 2018 would be considered "moving the needle."


And what happens when he leaves in summer?


Tail between legs? Come on man, not every player is Dwight Howard. Especially if the Lakers have cap space in 2018? This is why I said trade for Melo as well. He will be gone or disposed of by 2018, I believe it! And if we could get rid of Deng as well? We would have PG and be in cap heaven. I really don't know what people are talking about?


Top 3 is a heafty price for an expirer. U can go get Jimmy butler who has 2 years left and had been a much better player this year


I would do that as well. It really all depends on so many things? What draft pick we get, if any? Can we trade Deng, Moz, both? Lots of variables in play here?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject:

ToastedMuffins wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
I think Pelinka shouldn't extend Jules for more than Clarkson money (which Jules shouldn't accept). Better for both sides to take things to Rfa. That's partially about '18 free agency (which also gives LA plausible deniability), but perhaps even more about needing another year to get a read on Randle's worth.


RFA makes things a little tricky so they might end up just trading him instead of giving him a extension.



If he is traded this summer, have modest expectations on the incoming assets.


there is no simple alternative on just trading Randle for another talented player, because he has a low salary cap, so we would need to use our cap space or assets to pull off a trade.



I don't think it matters if the trade is configured with Randle going out by himself or as part of a package.


Just be conservative in expectations on what his value will be in the trade.


His value in a trade will be solely on a team taking him on and getting the benefit of signing him to a extension either by the October deadline or by the summer of 2018.


Based on expectations that his game will be relatively unchanged over the remainder of this season, what would you expect him to be making in the 2018 - 2019 season?


A max contract for Randle would put him at $25,750,000 based on current salary cap projections. I'd be surprised if he was tendered a max offer sheet in restricted free agency though. If he doesn't sign an extension earlier he may very well be the best restricted free agent on the market. That could drive his price up. I'd hazard a guess of somewhere between 18 and 22 million starting salary.


That is in the neighborhood of 20% of an expected $102 million salary cap in 2017 - 18 and much the same for a $103 million salary cap the following season.


Multiple ways that things could go with Randle and a new contract:

1. Things could go as you suggested with Randle being among the most appealing RFA in summer 2018 and that would bump his salary to the high side.

2. A limited number of teams would have sufficient cap space in summer 2018 to pursue free agents (much less RFA) because of the meager uplift from 2017 - 18 to 2018 - 19. Thus contract offers for Randle might be limited because of that and he could be signed at a reasonable rate.

3. A team that wants Randle could decide to strike early and offer a favorable package for him this offseason to sign an extension before next season starts.

4. There is minimal interest from other teams in trading for him this offseason and he doesn't make enough progress during the 2017 - 18 to meet the expectations of Magic. He is RFA with limited interested from others teams and it is difficult for the Lakers to salvage significant value from the situation.



There are probably some other paths for this situation that I haven't thought of yet.
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